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How can you expect a guy to want a relationship with you after you’ve told him that? I’m surprised he kept seeing you at all after that. I’d turn away and leave right there, even if I were interested in you initially.

Oh, so you mean your marriage only looks ideal. Maybe so, but who cares how it looks like? It is definitely a mess. It’s not just your head. It’s also your wife’s head and what she has been doing, and the lack of communication and understanding from which it stems.

Maybe, it can happen. But it sounds in this case like you became more attractive when he had checked out and was unavailable and out of reach, therefore "safe" to start having feelings for. It's a very common pattern but not a particularly healthy one. I'd encourage you to think about it and look into it.

Yeah, I didn't really feel attracted but then the attraction started growing. Sometimes it happens the more time you spend with someone.

Honestly, I wouldn't have stuck with either of you. Sounds like you were more like friends than romantic interests, but even the friendship side of things didn't sound great.

Yeah. If everything OP said is reflective of reality, it doesnt seem like this guy was the greatest catch anyway with him comments about a gym girl being a better fit etc. However if you are going to give a response that sounds that dismissive, why on earth would you blame him for checking out and saying they "don't feel the vibe" etc? You even said yourself that you weren't very into him at first. Did you suddenly become interested once he started withdrawing? Because that would be some interesting information in itself.

That's exactly my point - that it looks "ideal" is meaningless when you and your wife both know it's not. The people around you don't know the truth so it's rather odd you'd cite that as some sort of evidence that it's not a mess. That's like saying someone has a neat and tidy life just because their house looks nice from the outside and the lawn is well-maintained. Who cares what it looks like when on the inside there are multiple infidelities, deception and mistrust? Anyway, It all falls well below the standard for what I'd consider acceptable behaviour in a marriage. It's up to you where you want to set your own bar.

You shouldn't think of it this way. You phrase it as if you're doing something wrong by not wanting kids. Everyone is "cutting a chunk of the pool out" in some way. The people who want kids are "cutting out" all of the people who don't. People who only want to date someone tall are "cutting out" short people. Everyone has criteria, preferences and non-negotiables in dating. Since you know you don't want kids, don't compromise on that. And there is no point of saying that you're limiting yourself or cutting out a chunk of the pool..... you're not going to compromise on something as important and fundamental as this, so what's the point of thinking of it as a negative?

I guess we’re talking past one another at this point. The only A anyone knows about is my 4-5 mos EA 28 years ago. Maybe her BFFs know of my wife’s, but they’d either condone or rationalize it. No one knows of the HW thing (unlmy W told them). Point being, when I say our marriage looks ideal, I know what I’m talking about. I get that w my reveals here, one can say it’s a mess, but again, last time, this is all my internal consciousness and burden.

Multiple affairs and it's "perfect and ideal"? Yeah, right. Either you're not being honest with them about how much cheating and lying has apparently happened, or their marriages are even messier than yours. Your relationship is indeed a trainwreck at this point. Sorry, man. No point deluding yourself any further.

No reasonable man with self-esteem is going to stick around after you say something like that. You are being really unrealistic if you expected otherwise, and now you say you hate men? You really need to step back and reflect on your own role in the demise of this fledgling connection.

I get your viewpoint, Gebidozo. To both you and Expat, our relationship is not a mess. On the contrary, anyone who knows us would say it is ideal and perfect (or as near as anyone's can be). Everything I relate here is all bottled up in my head. Well, sure, you can then say, "well, your head then is a mess," and I might not disagree with you, at least as far as my original "bitter and sad" issue goes (that being, angst about her lying and cheating and whether or not to bring that out in the open at this point in our "near-perfect" lives). That parenthetical is the essential issue I first posted about. The risk-reward in doing so. Possible piece of mind - yes, through open and honest communication - verse marital armageddon. And to be clear once again, there are no "continuous attempts to impose [the hotwife lifestyle] on my wife," nor discussion or weaponizing of my EA. Both are 20-30 years in the past. I believe it may only seem to be "continuous," "constant," or occurring in the here and now because I am relating it all in an extremely condensed, abbreviated manner here. I offered - yes, encouraged - the lifestyle long ago, and she rejected it outwardly to me, but dipped her toe in, liked it, accepted it, and engaged in it, without telling me, without admitting it when I found out, and lying about it ever since. That's not "the lifestyle," and that's not open, honest communication. As I write, it strikes me that I know the whys and wherefores of this. She gets to keep/maintain her prim and proper wife persona - to herself and to others - whilst still enjoying the benefits. The sexual benefits; the ego benefits (I'm attractive and men still want me); the reputational benefits; and the contrasting benefit to my H who cheated on me (all close friends and siblings know of my EA). The latter being, "poor W," and look, she persevered and saved their marriage. She will never admit her own behavior because all those things go away - most importantly, the internal, "I did nothing wrong." She can preserve that by rationalizing that I wanted her to sleep w other men, encouraged it, and even am turned on by it, so in doing so, I (wife) only did what he asked and approved of. She doesn't make the "cheating/dishonesty" distinction, as I've made to Gebidozo. Alas, I think I get nowhere by bringing it up. She'll deny it again, til death do us part, and then I have rocked to beautiful, late-season boat we're now riding in. Only proof-positive could ever change that (basically, an A partner, a witness, or one of her BFF's giving her up to me).

I said "right now I have a hard time because of my ex but with time I'd be open to a relationship". I wasn't sure back then because I still saw him as a friend. But then I became attracted to him.

Glad you found my response useful. My ex said something similar when we broke up, my guess is that that reason is that for her this is normal - its probably the only way she knows how to operate. But it doesnt change what you feel uncomfortable with or disrespected by. Its not your job to sort out her mental health issues or blowups and you deserve to have a relationship built on mutual trust and respect.

Thank you for your response, tbh I found it the most useful and it's clear it comes from a similar experience. You're right — I was also thinking about it being fundamentally broken, but then new nice moments came and made me question myself and my expectations. Every point you made aligned perfectly with what I'm going through, and you've given me a lot of confidence to move forward with the breakup. I had a really serious conversation with her and she was surprised — she said she thought our relationship was working fine. I told her pretty much everything and we agreed that if things continued the same way we would break up. And to be honest, it's already going the same way. There are nice moments and then there are reproaches about everything I do. If she considers something I've done wrong — and it can literally be anything, like blaming me for coming back late from a run when I was back exactly on time as we had agreed — she starts insulting and disrespecting me. The most frustrating thing is when she does it in public. I told her I hate when she creates a scene in public and she said I care too much about what people around us think and that it wasn't that bad. But speaking in a raised voice while people are walking past us is genuinely humiliating. There is one person I want to talk to about this first — so far I haven't said anything to anyone I know — and then I'm just going to end it and tell her that the sooner the better, for both of us. Thank you again.

Of course I do. As I emphasized several times already, the problem is not your desire of that lifestyle, but your continuous attempts to impose it on your wife. Her cheating was obviously a wrong response to that, but it’s a symptom of a larger problem - lack of mutual understanding and communication between you and your wife. This has nothing to do with my approval or disapproval. For the record, I don’t find hotwife lifestyle immoral, and I definitely can see its appeal. I’m surprised why you keep missing the point - it’s not about the lifestyle, it’s about you trying to coerce your wife to it, your own emotional affair, and the general mess that your relationship has become. You keep stubbornly isolating your wife’s purported cheating as the only thing that is wrong in your relationship, failing to see the big picture.

This marriage sounds quite messed up, and it seems each of you has played a role in its demise. It's likely better for both you and her to finally pull the plug and set each other free.

You don’t see a distinction between mutual, known, consensual activity like the hotwife/cuckold lifestyle, and singular, unknown, behind one’s back cheating and dishonesty? I understand you may not like or approve of the former, but to give a pass to the latter as a result of that seems pretty bizarre to me. Guess you’re not too empathetic. It seems you’re thinking, “well, you got what you asked for,” but no, no I didn’t. I was truthful and honest about my sexuality and fantasies, and about an emotional affair, and I got a woman who lied and was deceitful about both. Not sure how you don’t see that.

Well, she told you she kissed some guy, so technically she did cheat and did admit it. The rest is mostly speculations that point less to other instances of cheating (those they might have occurred) than to your wife’s deep frustration with the whole situation. Frankly, the way you kept insisting that she sleep with other men and got excited when she even mentioned them, at the same time scrutinizing her every word and movement and being so angry with her for hiding some things, feels unhinged and borderline scary to me.

As stated in an earlier post, it's somewhat risky for me to give too much detail (as it may serve to identify me). Though at this point, I might even welcome my wife finding and reading this thread. First, the certainty. This is the near 2-year A while I was away. A new neighbor moved in down the street a month or two after I left. He was single (divorced, I believe), about 4-5 yrs younger than my wife, "cute," and he began to hang out quite regularly with another neighbor couple who my wife and I were very good friends with. So the 4 of them became a regular item at the neighbor's house, and at neighborhood events/parties. Obviously not in a declared/overt A way, but the bottom line was the 4 of them hung our a lot. In fact, I was home for a short weekend about 5 mos in (away), and driving by the new neighbor's house, my then-HS daughter said to me, "have you met [name] yet - you know Mom hangs out with him at the [neighbor couple]'s house a lot, and she thinks he's really cute." So I met him that weekend, and when he was introduced to me, I said, "so your [wife's name]'s 'substitute husband'?" I told him to be sure to "take good care of her" while I'm gone. A few months later - I was now overseas - my wife told me he wanted to take her out to dinner to "thank her" for welcoming him to the neighborhood and being so friendly and hospitable. I told her it sounded like a date to me - honestly, while getting hard - and she said, no, no, he just wants to thank me. She kinda caught on that maybe I was encouraging the date aspect, so she reverted back to, no, no, I'm not going then. I backed off the date talk, and told her I understood it was platonic, etc., and she could go if she'd like. TBH, I have no idea whether they went or not. Three other indicia; two sexual, and one verbal. I was back home 2x in this near 2-year period. Each time, my wife did some sexual things with me that she had never done before [in 28 years together]! One was a position we had never done; the other was she had shaved "down there." You tell me how those things pop out of nowhere after 28 years!?? And here's the nail in the coffin. About a month after I had returned for good, we were at a fundraiser for this guy's ill father. It was winter, so I left to get the car. I forgot my wife had the keys, so I went back in about 10 mins. My wife was talking to him with her back to me. As I got close, I heard it say, "no, it's ok - I'll just start cheating on him." Um, does it get any more clear than that? So it seemed pretty clear to me, he had called it off since I was now home. She had no doubt told him at some point early on, that it wasn't cheating, because I had given her the "hall pass" I mentioned in my first post. She might have even told him I was a self-proclaimed cuckold, but regardless whether she had added that, he must have told her he wasn't going to continue their A as I was home and any "hall pass' had expired. My wife's desperate response - no, she was willing to now "cheat" on me. I confronted her in the car, and she went nuts - frankly, I don't even recall what her defense was. To me, I was barely listening because I had quite obviously put 2+2+2+2 together. Oh, one last thing (almost forgot). About 3-4 yrs later, my wife tells me that [neighbor - now remarried] had called her and told her he was being blackmailed by some guy who claimed to have "proof-positive" that he had an affair a few years prior with his neighbor's wife while her H was away. The guy demanded that he and the W tell their respective Hs the truth, or he was going to. My wife of course told me the whole thing was preposterous and untrue, but she thought she should tell me. The neighbor had his IT people trace the computer IP address to California, but he never heard another thing (to my knowledge anyway), and it all went away with my wife laughing it off. So, you tell me - did she have an A with this guy? The other possible guys during this period? The two BFF's Hs, and maybe another guy or two (old BF and another neighbor). Just theories - no compelling proof or near-certainty. I know the guys all would do her in a heartbeat, given the chance. I know the wives would've allowed it, if not encouraged it (long, BFF relationships). My wife visited and drank with the one couple every week - just the 3 of them - and I was told stories of the wives getting drunk. My wife also visited the other couple at their summer cottage - all drinking, boating and sunbathing. That wife is the same wife/BFF who my wife and she picked up the two guys on a girls' cruise about 10 years earlier than the A mentioned above. The 4 of them paired off and and spent 4 days with them, including getting a hotel for an extra day after the cruise. My wife claimed she had only kissed the other guy, nothing more, but a couple weeks later, I found a note she had hidden with his full name, address, email, tel, and birthday(?). She also told me - and this was kind of the height of my encouraging the hotwife/cuckold activities - that she'd like to ask him to come visit and stay with us for a few days. She said it was more for sightseeing, but I saw it differently. Not the usual thing a wife suggests to her husband. I have no idea whether she asked him or not, but nothing ever came of it. Anyway, on another occasion where we were visiting this same couple at their cottage, my wife actually asked/dared this BFF H to follow her up to the cottage if he was interested (again, drinking, bikini...). I told him to go ahead, didn't bother me. He didn't. But, that night, when I came to bed, I told my my wife that BFF's H was still up and he was watching porn. My wife then got out of bed - wearing a flimsy night shirt as I recall - and said she was going to go see what [H name] was up to. I told her to enjoy herself. I fell asleep before she came back to bed. So, once again, you tell me whether my W has had sex with other guys, whether cheating, on a hall pass, or cuckolding me. There's my proof/evidence. Bottom line: she's never admitted it. If it wasn't with my full knowledge and approval - before or after - that's cheating, nothing else.

To be honest you both sound all over the place, and it seems like the communication sucked. Consistency is key, if you get two people together who seem entirely unsure what if anything they want, sooner or later the "vibe" as he put it is going to be weird and its not going to go any further.

Have you built a healthy, well-rounded social life? If not, start there, from the ground up, over time. Let the dating incorporate itself into that naturally as your scope expands and you keep meeting new people.

Umm... how old are the two of you again?

I spat out my drink!!

Consider that texting more than twice a day may be a sign that someone needs something more productive to do.