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I'm glad it did Thank you for sharing this. I can absolutely relate to not having the healthiest rolemodels of healthy romance growing up. The fact that you're reflective and aware- both of yourself and relationship dynamics, is very refreshing and will definitly be beneficial for you, regardless of who you meet. You seem to be doing the right things. It sounds like you've just not met the type of women who'd want to get to know you on a deeper level, beyond just physical intimacy. Where do you meet the women you've dated? Genuine connections and commitment seems much rarer in todays dating, perhaps for valid reasons to many i'm sure, but that's a different conversation for another time.. I might not be of much help figuring out the why's and the how's, but as someone with a similar view on dating, I would hope more men were as introspective and clear as you are. Not that there aren't men like this, but I've yet to meet a man who'll lean in to the connection, rather than pull away for a reason that just doesn't make sense. I couldn't have said that last paragraph any better than what you just did! I would add it also helps building vulnerability and safety which helps sustain a true, genuine connection. What type of women have you been curious on? Any spesific trates now than before?

How so? What I mean is that clearly the desire to have sex with other men is still there. She might have backed away from her suggestion of a foursome or having sex with another man on her own, but it's the very fact that she even wants to that can't be fixed. You've just learned the hard way that you are mostly speaking for yourself here. She still wanted to and would have done this. It's great that you have both given up substances, but as you can see, it's mostly you who has truly changed. Not her. Not in this very important way, at least. You two have a fundemental difference in values, desires and boundaries here. It is very concerning that it didn't occur to her what a terrible idea this would be, that you would be upset, and that she tried to play it off like any of this is typical. It tells me that you two are completely out of synch on a very critical level. I can't quite fathom how she didn't anticipate your reaction, but it says a lot about deeper problems between you two. You may not have realized it until now, but you two are not on the same page. Personally? I would not marry someone like this. She isn't really ready for it - not the marriage you would like, anyway.

I’ve recently had the most horrendous conversation with my fiancee. This might even be the end it was that bad. We’ve been together 8 years and I guess neither of us have been great partners, drugs, alcohol, abuse and we have both cheated way too often and been forgiven way to often but it was just who we were. We made a pact 4 years ago to get our act together and stop it all, cold turkey, and we’ve been clean, sober and loyal for 4 years. Our relationship improved 1000 times over. We got engaged a year ago. So it’s coming up to around the time to organize the bachelor/ette parties and she had this great idea of doing a combined one. We’re both there for each other and we can party without worrying what the other person might be up to. I wasn’t worried anyway, she has changed so much I trusted her completely. And then came the kick in the guts. Because we’re having a combined party and we won’t get to have one last fling alone let’s find a male and female stripper who will have a foursome. It just broke my heart. We have worked so hard on ourselves to get where we are and that one sentence just destroyed me. She could see I was angry so then said we could go back to having separate parties if I wanted but she didn't think I’d want her being with another man alone. I think I died inside when she said that. I mean how out of touch could she have been. Of course I told her that she shouldn’t be with anyone else and there was no way that I was going to on my bachelor party, in fact we were just going to go skydiving and then bowling. The look on her face, it was like I was speaking gibberish. I pleaded that we had worked so hard on ourselves and our relationship so why would we even want this. She was like, well it’s a bachelorette party, that’s what people do. Apart from the fact that no that’s not what people do, it would never be what WE would do anymore, maybe the old us, not the current us. So she has backed down and said she was wrong and begged for my forgiveness but it’s still obvious to me that she has that cheating DNA in her. We worked so hard, I really want to keep going with her, keep supporting her journey, OUR journey but this has rocked me so much. I nearly blew my sobriety, I was parked in the carpark of a bar but luckily my sponsor was available and talked me down. I don’t think I could deal with her cheating again and now those thoughts are in my head. It just ruins a lot, every time she goes out now I’ll be thinking… maybe. It was so good to not have those thoughts. We’re supposed to be getting married in May. Everything is booked, invitations are out. Is there any way to save this? Do I believe her when she backed down and give her a chance, or is she just covering up but would do it if given the chance? I feel like she would but I want to give her the chance anyway because we’ve come so far together. Or am I being delusional and setting myself up for a failed marriage? She is doing everything right to fix this but has Pandora's box been opened and even if we can close it will there still be enough left inside? Thank you for listening.

I imagine that there are a few people out there for whom it wouldn’t be that bad. But it will certainly be very bad for you. You are essentially forcing yourself to accept conditions that are unacceptable to you. You are convincing yourself that you’ll be fine with that, but that’s an illusion. You are acting out of fear and out of weakness. This means that, should you really go through with the unfortunate decision to get back together with your wife, you’ll have to start living a lie and repress your natural aversion. This won’t end well.

Only you can determine that. I personally think you are fooling yourself because the alternative - ending the marriage - is way too scary and painful to face. I don't think this is going to work out long term since you are not natrually wired this way and don't really want to be sharing her with anyone else. Yes, you might dip your toes into ENM for a bit but I would not hold you breath that it's going to do much but hurt you even further. My guess is you are going to find it nearly impossble to "lovingly" live with her knowing she has dates and sex with other men. Be honest with yourself first and foremost moving forward.

Yeah, I guess I have, but that's what having a child does to you, you make sacrifices. The truth is that I would prefer her with me and me only but there's plenty of people that live in ENM relationships and maybe that can work for us. Maybe it won't. But I think it's worth a try. I get that it's unconventional and that I've somewhat been "forced" into it by circumstance but I am open to exploring this willingly and with all my wits about me. I'm very aware it might not work out.

Yes it is that bad, for a whole host of reasons. You have transitioned very quickly from being horrified at your gf wanting to do adult movies to being happy with sharing her with other dudes and scraps of affection. That's going to create a massive power imbalance and its not going to leave you in a very good position, or your kid.

I think I've just come to the realization that there are many differing types of relationships out there and they can all still be loving in their own way. We may never have again what we once had but is it really that bad if we can lovingly live together but have "date nights" once or twice a month where we can see other people? The conversation at the moment is around that with the sticking being frequency, I would like it once a month, maybe twice but she wants it at least once a week, preferably no limits.

Thank you very much for the insight! I really did think on this for a bit, and if by this you mean really being there, present in the moment with them, being open about both myself and my interest in getting to know them, in trying to understand them and their emotional reality, in being vulnerable and trying to offer them a safe space within which to be vulnerable as well, paying attention to their needs, to the things which make their eyes light up with joy, to that one movie, or song, or whatever it may be which always hits them in the feels, offering a warm shoulder, a tight hug, and opening up my empathy when something brought them down (not to fix, but to genuinely listen and feel their feels, so to speak), being playful and curious, even teasing and tantalising, then yes! Or at the very least I hope I've managed to do that for them! Ultimately, that's what I want out of a relationship, I don't want it for the relationship's sake, I want to have a full and complete person in my life, with their entire internal world, their panoply of emotions, their complexity of though, their unique perspective and takes on things, their ups and downs, their strengths and shortcomings, and I see no other way of achieving that. I mean... what would be the point otherwise? I genuinely want a partner, someone with whom to share my life, someone to whom I could offer anything they wanted out of it, someone who'd have me share in their life as well, someone with whom to share in the joy of the good times and alongside whom to push through the crummy ones. If it was just to stave off the loneliness, it'd be easier to get a dog:))

Thanks so much for the reassurance! To answer your question, I always try to learn whatever there is to be learnt from every experience, as I'd at least want to make new mistakes if they're wholly unavoidable. I've tried to get it from my partners' mouths if they were willing to discuss it openly, discussed things honestly and openly in therapy, did a lot of reading around relationship dynamics, basically everything I had at my disposal to try to learn said lessons. My first ended because we were both very young, very traumatised, and had the communication skills of turnips, for instance, and I've been working hard ever since on developing healthy and thorough communication skills, as well as dealing with whatever past shenanigans I could find in my composition (that one catapulted me straight into depression, as we were even engaged by the end). The age bit came naturally, thankfully (I guess).

Thank you so much for the reassurance, it softens the frustration a bit. It's still a very heavy aspect from an emotional standpoint, but it's easier to deal with it knowing it's basically just a math problem. Very good point about the rarity of love, I really should do more to remind myself of that. As to your point about giving my dates space, yes! I Or at least I try my best to do so, especially if I'm particularly excited about them. I tend to hyperfixate on things which intrigue me so I monitor that aspect and keep it in check when it comes down to people, as I don't like being bombarded with and suffocated by attention, either. I do try to communicate openly all the time, things like telling them if I've enjoyed myself, showing appreciation and gratitude, making light of awkwardness, reminiscing, etc., and I generally try to get a feel for my date's rhythm and adapt to it. If it's reciprocal and I know I can count on them to initiate at least as much as I would want to, then it's "one for you, one for me" in terms of asking for another date. However, I've had instances where I've been asked out before I even managed to formulate the sentence, and instances where my dates have been on the shy side, in which case I took more initiative if I saw they were genuinely interested. Basically, I focus on paying attention to my dates, to their rhythm, their personality, their person in general, and always try to adapt to their needs (as much as I can without bending myself backwards, to note). At the same time, I do my best to give them the chance to know me as well, to figure out who I am and how that fits into their existence, if that makes sense. And I want to highlight one aspect in particular, what you've said about autonomy. If there's anything I find holy in this world, that's personal autonomy. And this goes very deep for me, it functions both out of altruism and selfishness. To expand, autonomy is the most important thing for me as far as my existence is concerned, and precisely because I understand its value at such a deeply personal level, I always try to hold space for the other person's autonomy and even reinforce it as much as I possibly can. A person who is thoroughly Themself has my respect through the sheer intentionality behind it, and a woman who is Herself through-and-through is probably my biggest turn-on, to be very honest. In short, yes, I really want to respect my dates' autonomy as much as I possibly can (maybe even more than I could), even (and especially) if it goes against what I'd want from them.

I apologise for the delay and thank you! You've lifted my spirits! You've touched upon several issues with which I've had to deal early on in this journey of romance, as I didn't have the healthiest examples growing up, and so had to gradually correct course over time. I did have a tendency to seek out emotionally unavailable women, or even women with whom those familiar sickly patterns could be reproduced. I've worked on this for several years in therapy and have managed to recalibrate my system of value in terms of relationships, as well as worked on rebuilding myself for myself. I'm sure I've still a lot left to handle, as healing and growing are lifelong processes, but I am in a much, much better place than I used to be. And, yes, those sickly patterns included me giving myself away fully and from the start to people who really didn't do much to deserve/earn it, but that has stopped happening a while ago. Now I take things step by step, I try to do as you've mentioned - figuring out intentions from early on, getting a feel for the temperature, which is why the attempts which clearly wouldn't go where I'd want them now last significantly less than before, and with less emotional investment from the start. I still like to give it an honest shot and to get to know the women at least enough to determine with 90% certainty that we're not looking for the same thing, but once that's clear, I don't hang on to "maybe, just maybe." It's unfair to everyone involved, I think. Thank you so much, I really do try to be sincere and open about these things, as that's ultimately what builds the type of connection I'm seeking, but most importantly because I find it's the least I could do in terms of basic decency and respect. Plus I know very well what it's like to be on the receiving end of ambiguity, of the emotional push-pull, to be blindsided by a full 180 which came without warning or understanding of what caused it, and I genuinely don't want to generate that type of confusion and chaos in anyone. And you've hit the nail square on the head! That's exactly it, sex, to me, is an expression of passion, maybe even the purest form there is. And, as I see things, true passion can never be manifested without a deep connection, without knowing my partner's ins and outs, both physically as well as intellectually, emotionally, basically as much of everything there is to know about them as possible. It's also why casual sex doesn't do much for me. Physical gratification alone isn't all that interesting to me, I'm primarily looking for intimacy, for emotional fulfilment, I want sex with meaning, with a full person, with an emotionally and intellectually real and present entity. Sex isn't just with the body, it's with the mind, with feelings, it's with love and affection, it IS love and affection. And being a giver, it's one thing to satisfy a beautiful body and an entirely different thing to satisfy the beautiful person I hold dearly in my heart and mind.

Can never be monogamous again? You seem to be somewhat considering keeping the relationship alive, which I find a bit alarming. Of course if you are the father you should stick around in the sense of being the best most present Dad you can. But in terms of the relationship it will do you nor them no favours trying to put it back together with sticky tape. Its better for a kid to learn that their parents had something and it didnt work out than witness their relationship slowly disintegrating.

Paternity test done. Paid for expedited results. Should know in 2-4 business days. On a positive note for once, I think she has gone into mom mode. She dropped the acting and is not even seeing other people and is being very loving and doting to me. It's not all good though, she has said she can never be monogamous again but she does want to be with me as part of a loving family, we just have to work out what works best for us. So everyone can cross their fingers for me for the paternity test.

Don't be so quick to give credit to guys who don't really have much going for them who are still able to get women to commit to them. In reality many of those guys have just found a certain type of girl that they can manipulate. For instance there are a lot of guys who prey upon emotionally vulnerable women and completely take advantage of them. Not in regards to sex but they convince these women to fund them because they act like they are being emotionally there for them. All the while living off them. Many of those guys are even worse then the ones who are using women for sex. At least the ones who are using them for sex aren't trying to bleed their bank accounts.

Those are fair points, thanks for your honesty. I suppose I am a bit judgmental in this situation, maybe that stems from the resentment I'm starting to feel. You're probably right that she has been out of the door for a long time, and that's ok, my sole focus right now is on figuring out the best path forward for my kids and myself. I think you and the other posters are helping me confirm that separation is the only real option. On your question about being the primary caregiver, it's hard for me to say, we both do a lot of things for and with the kids. I wouldn't say either of us is any more primary than the other. Perhaps I'm rigid too, although I think I did a disservice by not elaborating on a few things. I don't consider her terribly enmeshed with her family just because she speaks with them on the phone. She has been enmeshed with them for quite some time. Her mother controls a lot of aspects of her life, and she admits this and calls it "toxic" but also says she doesn't want to try to change it, and has suggested that she is just ok with the toxicity of it. I only mention the phone thing because she has started to try to have them around, either on the phone or in person, much more frequently since all of this came about a few months ago, which is why I speculate (and I recognize that it's speculation on my part) that it has something to do with avoiding our situation. Could be wrong though. I also don't think her therapist is a problem just because he believes in new wave stuff. My issue is that she says her therapist has suggested to her that I'm a "resistant energy" that is an obstacle to her "energy" achieving what she wants it to. I find that this line of thinking has helped foreclosed any possibility of her being open to fixing our relationship. When this first starting coming up, I asked that we work on our relationship through solo and couples therapy and she agreed, but after talking to him she is not interested in doing anything but being "married business partners." I also find this line of thinking to be new wave, which is why I described it that way. Again, could be wrong there, just how I see it. The other person's choice of pronouns is relevant to me because it (along with the other things I mentioned) suggests a nontraditional approach to life, which is consistent with how my wife has changed her view of marriage. When we were married, a traditional marriage was very important to her. Ceremony, public vows, rings, preacher, father giving her away, etc. I believed her vows and I meant mine, and I would not have married her had she suggested that we be "married business partners" at that time. Now she has a nontraditional view that is wholly at odds with where she was just a few years ago, and I think this nontraditional person has influenced that. I don't mention the pronouns in order to disparage or even cast blame, but I do think it's fair to observe that a) using they/them pronouns (and the other things I mentioned) is nontraditional and b) it's likely that this person has had a substantial influence on how my wife has become significantly more nontraditional. Having an honest conversation about that is ok. Honestly I don't even hold any negative feelings toward this person...they aren't the one who married me, they're free to talk to whoever they want, I just previously would have expected that my wife wouldn't pursue it. Again, I appreciate the feedback, and you've given me some things to consider. I'll continue to evaluate whether I'm being too judgmental or rigid. I also understand if you don't agree with my perspective on the things above. But I think you do agree that regardless, a separation is inevitable at this point. Thanks for the perspective!

You do NOT build a healthy bond through deliberate intermittent reinforcement. You can build a dysfunctional relationship that way. Intermittent reinforcement (getting a like or response one out of every 20 times you check your site) is a way social media companies foster digital attachment and addiction. Intermittent reinforcement was a gimmick that t The old-school pickup guys would use this strategy, but they were just trying to have sex. And the pick-up guys were deliberately trying to make women feel insecure. None of that works for a good long-term relationship. People in long-term relationships rebel against treatment like that these days. And even if people on the receiving end of this hot-and-cold treatment stay in the relationship, they shut down emotionally, which kills the relationship. There are other ways to create excitement, fun and surprise in a long-term relationship. Are you in a long-term relationship?

It's simple...emotional connection just isn't there. Your focus throughout your post is all about the physical...the sex, the making out, having all your ducks in a row financially, fit and healthy, good looking enough to getting your foot in the door, being respectful, able to set boundaries, not a pushover, etc. The truth is women want to be intellectually stimulated. We think, feel, and make decisions with our emotions. Some men are able to tap into that, some don't. That's why you will see a guy that has nothing, isn't all that, but is able to get women to commit to them. Maybe find some self help books that will help you gain the knowledge to connect with women better.

Non-monogamy isn't necessarily a toxic environment for your child if it's something that both people are happy with, but if you feel like you couldn't be happy in a relationship like that (which is completely understandable and I wouldn't be either), then it's fine to leave as well. FWIW it sounds to me like your wife has been on the way out for a very long time - most people don't get up one day and decide unilaterally that they want to be non-monogamous out of the blue despite being happy in their relationship. So it's likely that a split is best for everyone involved. Custody wise you'd obviously need to get legal representation, since nobody here is an attorney in Texas (as far as I'm aware, anyway...). Is she the primary caregiver? If she is it's possible that she will get the bulk of the custody, but your attorney might be able to advise you on how you can get joint custody. Honestly, you do sound slightly judgemental towards everyone in her life - her parents, her therapist, her friend, her other "friend". She's talking on the phone with her parents, and you consider that to be "terribly enmeshed" and a "way to avoid dealing with you"? Her therapist is a problem because she believes in "new wave stuff"? Her "friend" - okay well I'm with you there, I wouldn't be keen on this person wanting to hook up with the partner either, but how is their choice of pronouns even relevant??? So yeah, I do agree with your wife that you sound quite "rigid". It's possible that she's gravitating towards people who are the polar opposite of you as a way of seeking some balance in her life. If she's cheated, then obviously she's in the wrong and none of this matters, but I don't know if she has. But yeah, probably best to leave and seek legal help. It doesn't sound reparable at this stage even if you wanted to try.

I mean, this is like a 30% rate? Which is perfectly normal IMO, and in fact I'd consider it quite high. It's understandable that you are frustrated, of course. For the relationships that ended, do you know why they ended?

To piggy-back on this, I also think it bears repeating that it would be at odds with OP's own view of what a life partner is. For her, it clearly involves at least some integration of her relationship and her family. She is understandably unlikely to be happy keeping these two important parts of her life separate. Suggesting to her to just attend family events alone and let boyfriend be is obviously not going to be a workable solution for her, or she wouldn't be here twisting herself into knots trying to find a way to make her boyfriend okay with this idea. She can't force him to be a bigger part of her life that way, of course. And he can't force her to be okay with this continued resistance to meeting her family. But they can (and should) each think long and hard about whether this relationship really is viable anymore. There is a pretty significant incompatiblity here.

That can work but in my experience most of the women comfortable in taking over the scheduling and what not that early on in the process are the exact same types the OP is being weary of. The ones who will be inviting a guy back to her place after the date is over......and sometimes before the date even happens.

You could just ask for her thoughts rather than volunteering yours up front. The idea would be to learn whether she's reflected and figured out that she's a lesbian, or that she's bi-sexual and what that means to her. If she's in a place that loves you as she would a family member, despite recognizing that you're not compatible romantically, there are ways to approach learning this without a full frontal confession that puts you out on a limb. If you find yourself unable to speak openly about this, then that can tell you what you need to know. Simpatico means alignment, which fosters open communication. One can be open without spilling guts. Think of a spectrum and raise your vulnerability gradually depending on the outcome of each progression. If you reach a place that halts you, that's your answer.

Yes, exactly. I can appreciate expressing enjoyment of a date and wanting to get together again; I'm not advocating for being uncommunicative. I can even see scheduling a second date pretty closely to the first and being proactive about that. But afterward, I'm cautioning against glomming onto someone and not allowing for breathing room and reciprocation. Women don't need to be 'sold,' that's patronizing. It demonstrates insecurity, and nobody wants that. It might be helpful to say you really enjoyed a date and offer that if she'd like to see you again, you're open to her picking the next one. Think of it like reaching out to touch fingers instead of grabbing her arm and pulling all the time.

I have never really felt that pulling back and waiting to set up another date until another time was a very good plan. Doing so can easily send a signal to the lady that you yourself aren't that interested and she will quickly move on to another person communicating with her who is pursuing her harder. Unless she has a big crush on him she will often lose interest very quickly if the guy is being very casual about pursuing her. There is definitely a middle ground that needs to be reached about not over pursuing but not under pursuing.