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Yeah, I can't explain it either. Thanks for the replies, you've all pretty much confirmed what I was worried about. She's been there through hell with me and I for her, I don't just want to cut her free. I'd hate to see her fall off the wagon. What is the best way to handle this? I fear that the embarrassment of cancelling a wedding will place a lot of stress on us both and we need to support each other. I really don't think that's the case but who knows, I never in a million years expected the conversation we had. The cheating was really a by-product of the drugs and alcohol and I know for sure she is clean an sober.

I hope it's ok that I comment on this before OP, but I absolutely see what you mean, and I would assume the same goes when dating men too. Less emotional intensity, more playful curiosity. I'm learning a few things here too:) I share the same mentality as OP when it comes to wanting commitment and a relationship, dating/getting to know one person at a time, and wanting emotional depth before being sexually vulnerable. @smackie9 A genuine Q: When would it be appropriate to dig deeper and get to know the person beyond surface level if emotional safety comes before sexual vulnerability and the intention is to find a meaningful connection, not just being sexually attracted to eachother and it ending there? @Repentant I agree with Smackie that keeping it light and exciting in the early stages (and that being too emotionally vulnerable can seem too intense off the bat depending on the lady), but I also think that showing up in the way you described (highlighted by smackie arlier) can be amazing if paced or once you've established mutual interest for pursuing a relationship (so I have learned). The selfless qualities you offer are amazing in a partner. Perhaps they should be shown after a certain time of getting to know each other? Regardless, keep making intentions clear, and if they're willing to dig a little deeper, then share accordingly.

And the child. Seriously, OP, is this the sort of relationship you want to model for your child?

This would overwhelm a woman in the early stages...I know it would have me running. I'm talking about shared passions, get excited about things, push and pull, being mysterious, be a little bit of a challenge in a positive way, let things unfold a little at a time, spontaneity, taking the lead. You can't reveal too much of yourself/vulnerability. That would be waaaaay down the road. I think most women, like myself prefer humour, some light hearted convo to lift spirits instead of a "there, there". Most people like some privacy about their emotional stae, thoughts and feelings. It would drive me crazy someone pushing me to talk about my feelings all the time..too deep. Sure there are women out there that need that, but I wouldn't expect it to be very healthy...it would have a co-dependant feel to it.

I hope you do, too:) Unfortunately, I agree. Hopefully we'll see changes in the near future, (although I wouldn't bet money on that yet..) Regardless, it all starts with ourselves. That's why I made it a point to tell you that you're doing the right things, being authentic and leading with intentionality as that is what you're seeking. Keep being up front about what you're looking for and hopefully you'll find a great woman to pursue a genuine connection with. I'm wishing for you what I wish for myself. I hear you- the good side of this, is that once you do find the opposite, you'll be even more grateful for what you have. That's rather rare these days too. Take care of your heart and move forward with dignity and good character:)

Honestly, I think this is somewhat universal, as I've known plenty of people in general who thoroughly embraced the fast-food-ification of all things as well. But, yeah, I really can't blame anyone for being cautious around men nowadays, what with all the... I don't even know what to call it other than sheer toxicity, which has been peddled all around... We really aren't living in the best of times as far as romance (along with many mmmany other things) is concerned.

Thank you so much for the encouragement and your wise words! I'll keep on truckin', I'm not one to quit! But maybe I'll take a break every now and again, just to give myself a bit of time to cool down, let those bruises clear up a bit:))

Well, to be honest, it's mostly random nowadays. I used to check out the apps every other year or so, but I stopped entirely a couple of years ago, as they've become ridiculously predatory... Now it's friends of friends, maybe someone catches my eye when I'm out and about and I'll try to strike up a conversation when I see there's space for it, women I get to know through shared contexts, such as work (although I only approach them after either or both of us quit - made the mistake of getting involved with a coworker once and I will never make that mistake again...), hobbies, basically whenever it happens. I honestly wouldn't even know where to actively look for potential dates nowadays, as third spaces have pretty much vanished... Ah, yes, I agree. I know a lot of people who've been soured on the entire dating deal due to really bad experiences, and I can't blame them for being apprehensive about potentially opening themselves up to more disappointment. My "luck" (if one could call it that) is that I've been familiarised with disappointment from an early age, so I'm partly desensitised to it:)) Thank you so much! Your words really mean a lot, I hope I will continue to live up to them! And I agree, there seems to be a generalised aversion to commitment nowadays... While I can sort of understand where it's coming from, it's still pretty sad... We're pretty much all starved for connection in today's world, yet so few of us actually try to form any... Oooh, vulnerability is paramount, agreed! Nothing like opening up and being embraced for it! As for your last question, I used to go for the "exciting" ones, the ones I could help "fix." Trauma bonding, I know, but I used to cling to that core nugget of truth they all had hidden behind brick walls and thorn bushes, y'know? Nowadays, I'm still a romantic at heart, but I've become more pragmatic, in that I still appreciate someone who "gets it," or at least someone who understands what it's like to have had to survive, not live, from the start, but intentionality is key - I don't really care how much baggage someone has, as long as it's all at least recognised and a genuine desire to grow is present. Other than that, it's very important that they see the world for what it is, an artistic bend is always a plus (especially if it's music oriented), if they're smarter than me I'm swooning, and a strong, well-defined personality is hot! Otherwise, I don't really have that many specific parameters, it's mostly all centered around intentionality and (self-)awareness in various shapes and sizes.

The thing about sacrifices is that they have to be necessary and not crossing a personal line, wherein you give yourself and your values up in the process. Its a tricky balance but I think in this case it's pretty clear. Accepting you'll have less sleep/rest time/time for hobbies because of your child - that's a sacrifice any decent parent has to make. Signing up to a style of relationship you fundamentally don't agree with, thats something else entirely and it's not something you have to put yourself through. It will inevitably lead to resentment. Don't "stay together for the kids". Much as it's comfortable and people think it's a better option, its not going to do the kid any favours either in the long run.

Umm, is she a 17yo whose knowledge of the world is limited to stuff she reads on Reddit or something? Strippers don't have foursomes. Strippers don't even have sex with their clients! What she's talking about is sex workers, and if she wants to start her marriage off by visiting sex workers, then all I can say is good luck with that girl. Again, what??? No, most people definitely do not have sex with sex workers at the bachelorette party, wtf is she even on??? You mention drugs and alcohol, is she just 100% smashed/high all the time or something? Because I really have no idea how an adult could be this dumb otherwise.

I think part of the issue comes from the fact that many women have a lot of romantic options. When there are so many ways and places to get attention from men, it can create a mindset where there always seems to be a better option, so committing to one person feels unnecessary. I’m not saying women should settle for a bad relationship, but constantly chasing the “grass is greener” idea can be exhausting and even excruciating.

My heart goes out to you. This would floor me, too. It would force me to consider whether my own changes blinded me to the possibility that she didn't really stop cheating, she just got better at not getting caught.

I second this, and it doesn't sound as though you're doing anything wrong. You just haven't found your match yet, and that's just natural odds at work. Rejections aren't really about you. They speak of the limitations of the lens through which another is capable of viewing you. The right person will view you through the right lens, but that will be rare. It's supposed to be rare. Natural selection is about aligning for the long term with enough patience to find the needle in the haystack. Women who aren't aligned with you will naturally screen themselves out unless you do it first. So maybe your screening skills could use practice so you don't spend too much time with those who are not right for you. When your primary goal of dating is to screen out bad matches rather than play out every hand you're dealt to your own detriment, you'll pass on bad matches early rather than acting like a 'candle in the wind', ya know? Keep opting for resilience, pass on bad matches early, and hold out for simpatico with THE woman who actually 'gets you'. You will thank yourself.

I'm glad it did Thank you for sharing this. I can absolutely relate to not having the healthiest rolemodels of healthy romance growing up. The fact that you're reflective and aware- both of yourself and relationship dynamics, is very refreshing and will definitly be beneficial for you, regardless of who you meet. You seem to be doing the right things. It sounds like you've just not met the type of women who'd want to get to know you on a deeper level, beyond just physical intimacy. Where do you meet the women you've dated? Genuine connections and commitment seems much rarer in todays dating, perhaps for valid reasons to many i'm sure, but that's a different conversation for another time.. I might not be of much help figuring out the why's and the how's, but as someone with a similar view on dating, I would hope more men were as introspective and clear as you are. Not that there aren't men like this, but I've yet to meet a man who'll lean in to the connection, rather than pull away for a reason that just doesn't make sense. I couldn't have said that last paragraph any better than what you just did! I would add it also helps building vulnerability and safety which helps sustain a true, genuine connection. What type of women have you been curious on? Any spesific trates now than before?

How so? What I mean is that clearly the desire to have sex with other men is still there. She might have backed away from her suggestion of a foursome or having sex with another man on her own, but it's the very fact that she even wants to that can't be fixed. You've just learned the hard way that you are mostly speaking for yourself here. She still wanted to and would have done this. It's great that you have both given up substances, but as you can see, it's mostly you who has truly changed. Not her. Not in this very important way, at least. You two have a fundemental difference in values, desires and boundaries here. It is very concerning that it didn't occur to her what a terrible idea this would be, that you would be upset, and that she tried to play it off like any of this is typical. It tells me that you two are completely out of synch on a very critical level. I can't quite fathom how she didn't anticipate your reaction, but it says a lot about deeper problems between you two. You may not have realized it until now, but you two are not on the same page. Personally? I would not marry someone like this. She isn't really ready for it - not the marriage you would like, anyway.

I’ve recently had the most horrendous conversation with my fiancee. This might even be the end it was that bad. We’ve been together 8 years and I guess neither of us have been great partners, drugs, alcohol, abuse and we have both cheated way too often and been forgiven way to often but it was just who we were. We made a pact 4 years ago to get our act together and stop it all, cold turkey, and we’ve been clean, sober and loyal for 4 years. Our relationship improved 1000 times over. We got engaged a year ago. So it’s coming up to around the time to organize the bachelor/ette parties and she had this great idea of doing a combined one. We’re both there for each other and we can party without worrying what the other person might be up to. I wasn’t worried anyway, she has changed so much I trusted her completely. And then came the kick in the guts. Because we’re having a combined party and we won’t get to have one last fling alone let’s find a male and female stripper who will have a foursome. It just broke my heart. We have worked so hard on ourselves to get where we are and that one sentence just destroyed me. She could see I was angry so then said we could go back to having separate parties if I wanted but she didn't think I’d want her being with another man alone. I think I died inside when she said that. I mean how out of touch could she have been. Of course I told her that she shouldn’t be with anyone else and there was no way that I was going to on my bachelor party, in fact we were just going to go skydiving and then bowling. The look on her face, it was like I was speaking gibberish. I pleaded that we had worked so hard on ourselves and our relationship so why would we even want this. She was like, well it’s a bachelorette party, that’s what people do. Apart from the fact that no that’s not what people do, it would never be what WE would do anymore, maybe the old us, not the current us. So she has backed down and said she was wrong and begged for my forgiveness but it’s still obvious to me that she has that cheating DNA in her. We worked so hard, I really want to keep going with her, keep supporting her journey, OUR journey but this has rocked me so much. I nearly blew my sobriety, I was parked in the carpark of a bar but luckily my sponsor was available and talked me down. I don’t think I could deal with her cheating again and now those thoughts are in my head. It just ruins a lot, every time she goes out now I’ll be thinking… maybe. It was so good to not have those thoughts. We’re supposed to be getting married in May. Everything is booked, invitations are out. Is there any way to save this? Do I believe her when she backed down and give her a chance, or is she just covering up but would do it if given the chance? I feel like she would but I want to give her the chance anyway because we’ve come so far together. Or am I being delusional and setting myself up for a failed marriage? She is doing everything right to fix this but has Pandora's box been opened and even if we can close it will there still be enough left inside? Thank you for listening.

I imagine that there are a few people out there for whom it wouldn’t be that bad. But it will certainly be very bad for you. You are essentially forcing yourself to accept conditions that are unacceptable to you. You are convincing yourself that you’ll be fine with that, but that’s an illusion. You are acting out of fear and out of weakness. This means that, should you really go through with the unfortunate decision to get back together with your wife, you’ll have to start living a lie and repress your natural aversion. This won’t end well.

Only you can determine that. I personally think you are fooling yourself because the alternative - ending the marriage - is way too scary and painful to face. I don't think this is going to work out long term since you are not natrually wired this way and don't really want to be sharing her with anyone else. Yes, you might dip your toes into ENM for a bit but I would not hold you breath that it's going to do much but hurt you even further. My guess is you are going to find it nearly impossble to "lovingly" live with her knowing she has dates and sex with other men. Be honest with yourself first and foremost moving forward.

Yeah, I guess I have, but that's what having a child does to you, you make sacrifices. The truth is that I would prefer her with me and me only but there's plenty of people that live in ENM relationships and maybe that can work for us. Maybe it won't. But I think it's worth a try. I get that it's unconventional and that I've somewhat been "forced" into it by circumstance but I am open to exploring this willingly and with all my wits about me. I'm very aware it might not work out.

Yes it is that bad, for a whole host of reasons. You have transitioned very quickly from being horrified at your gf wanting to do adult movies to being happy with sharing her with other dudes and scraps of affection. That's going to create a massive power imbalance and its not going to leave you in a very good position, or your kid.

I think I've just come to the realization that there are many differing types of relationships out there and they can all still be loving in their own way. We may never have again what we once had but is it really that bad if we can lovingly live together but have "date nights" once or twice a month where we can see other people? The conversation at the moment is around that with the sticking being frequency, I would like it once a month, maybe twice but she wants it at least once a week, preferably no limits.

Thank you very much for the insight! I really did think on this for a bit, and if by this you mean really being there, present in the moment with them, being open about both myself and my interest in getting to know them, in trying to understand them and their emotional reality, in being vulnerable and trying to offer them a safe space within which to be vulnerable as well, paying attention to their needs, to the things which make their eyes light up with joy, to that one movie, or song, or whatever it may be which always hits them in the feels, offering a warm shoulder, a tight hug, and opening up my empathy when something brought them down (not to fix, but to genuinely listen and feel their feels, so to speak), being playful and curious, even teasing and tantalising, then yes! Or at the very least I hope I've managed to do that for them! Ultimately, that's what I want out of a relationship, I don't want it for the relationship's sake, I want to have a full and complete person in my life, with their entire internal world, their panoply of emotions, their complexity of though, their unique perspective and takes on things, their ups and downs, their strengths and shortcomings, and I see no other way of achieving that. I mean... what would be the point otherwise? I genuinely want a partner, someone with whom to share my life, someone to whom I could offer anything they wanted out of it, someone who'd have me share in their life as well, someone with whom to share in the joy of the good times and alongside whom to push through the crummy ones. If it was just to stave off the loneliness, it'd be easier to get a dog:))

Thanks so much for the reassurance! To answer your question, I always try to learn whatever there is to be learnt from every experience, as I'd at least want to make new mistakes if they're wholly unavoidable. I've tried to get it from my partners' mouths if they were willing to discuss it openly, discussed things honestly and openly in therapy, did a lot of reading around relationship dynamics, basically everything I had at my disposal to try to learn said lessons. My first ended because we were both very young, very traumatised, and had the communication skills of turnips, for instance, and I've been working hard ever since on developing healthy and thorough communication skills, as well as dealing with whatever past shenanigans I could find in my composition (that one catapulted me straight into depression, as we were even engaged by the end). The age bit came naturally, thankfully (I guess).

Thank you so much for the reassurance, it softens the frustration a bit. It's still a very heavy aspect from an emotional standpoint, but it's easier to deal with it knowing it's basically just a math problem. Very good point about the rarity of love, I really should do more to remind myself of that. As to your point about giving my dates space, yes! I Or at least I try my best to do so, especially if I'm particularly excited about them. I tend to hyperfixate on things which intrigue me so I monitor that aspect and keep it in check when it comes down to people, as I don't like being bombarded with and suffocated by attention, either. I do try to communicate openly all the time, things like telling them if I've enjoyed myself, showing appreciation and gratitude, making light of awkwardness, reminiscing, etc., and I generally try to get a feel for my date's rhythm and adapt to it. If it's reciprocal and I know I can count on them to initiate at least as much as I would want to, then it's "one for you, one for me" in terms of asking for another date. However, I've had instances where I've been asked out before I even managed to formulate the sentence, and instances where my dates have been on the shy side, in which case I took more initiative if I saw they were genuinely interested. Basically, I focus on paying attention to my dates, to their rhythm, their personality, their person in general, and always try to adapt to their needs (as much as I can without bending myself backwards, to note). At the same time, I do my best to give them the chance to know me as well, to figure out who I am and how that fits into their existence, if that makes sense. And I want to highlight one aspect in particular, what you've said about autonomy. If there's anything I find holy in this world, that's personal autonomy. And this goes very deep for me, it functions both out of altruism and selfishness. To expand, autonomy is the most important thing for me as far as my existence is concerned, and precisely because I understand its value at such a deeply personal level, I always try to hold space for the other person's autonomy and even reinforce it as much as I possibly can. A person who is thoroughly Themself has my respect through the sheer intentionality behind it, and a woman who is Herself through-and-through is probably my biggest turn-on, to be very honest. In short, yes, I really want to respect my dates' autonomy as much as I possibly can (maybe even more than I could), even (and especially) if it goes against what I'd want from them.

I apologise for the delay and thank you! You've lifted my spirits! You've touched upon several issues with which I've had to deal early on in this journey of romance, as I didn't have the healthiest examples growing up, and so had to gradually correct course over time. I did have a tendency to seek out emotionally unavailable women, or even women with whom those familiar sickly patterns could be reproduced. I've worked on this for several years in therapy and have managed to recalibrate my system of value in terms of relationships, as well as worked on rebuilding myself for myself. I'm sure I've still a lot left to handle, as healing and growing are lifelong processes, but I am in a much, much better place than I used to be. And, yes, those sickly patterns included me giving myself away fully and from the start to people who really didn't do much to deserve/earn it, but that has stopped happening a while ago. Now I take things step by step, I try to do as you've mentioned - figuring out intentions from early on, getting a feel for the temperature, which is why the attempts which clearly wouldn't go where I'd want them now last significantly less than before, and with less emotional investment from the start. I still like to give it an honest shot and to get to know the women at least enough to determine with 90% certainty that we're not looking for the same thing, but once that's clear, I don't hang on to "maybe, just maybe." It's unfair to everyone involved, I think. Thank you so much, I really do try to be sincere and open about these things, as that's ultimately what builds the type of connection I'm seeking, but most importantly because I find it's the least I could do in terms of basic decency and respect. Plus I know very well what it's like to be on the receiving end of ambiguity, of the emotional push-pull, to be blindsided by a full 180 which came without warning or understanding of what caused it, and I genuinely don't want to generate that type of confusion and chaos in anyone. And you've hit the nail square on the head! That's exactly it, sex, to me, is an expression of passion, maybe even the purest form there is. And, as I see things, true passion can never be manifested without a deep connection, without knowing my partner's ins and outs, both physically as well as intellectually, emotionally, basically as much of everything there is to know about them as possible. It's also why casual sex doesn't do much for me. Physical gratification alone isn't all that interesting to me, I'm primarily looking for intimacy, for emotional fulfilment, I want sex with meaning, with a full person, with an emotionally and intellectually real and present entity. Sex isn't just with the body, it's with the mind, with feelings, it's with love and affection, it IS love and affection. And being a giver, it's one thing to satisfy a beautiful body and an entirely different thing to satisfy the beautiful person I hold dearly in my heart and mind.