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Dude, what the hell. That bartender never said she wanted a serious relationship with you, she never lied or misled you. But now you’re slandering her like this simply because you can’t take a rejection. If she told you she loved you and married you and took all your money while sleeping with another guy, then yeah, she’d be a manipulator. But did you even have sex? Did she tell you during sex that she wanted to be committed to you? She went out with you on a couple of dates, that’s it. The rest is your imagination. From one guy to another: stop thinking like an incel.

This is probably the worst advice I’ve ever seen on this forum.

There is an episode on the TV show “Friends” where one of the characters explains that if you say that exact phrase (“well, that was fun, maybe we should do it again”) it means that you aren’t interested enough. People who are interested actively set up a date. If you are interested in that girl, text her again and suggest meeting for coffee or dinner or drinks on a specific day. If she can’t that day, ask when she is free and adjust accordingly. But do set up a date, don’t be vague.

posted in wrong section before Be honest ladies, should I even bother? For a bunch of reasons I've never been able to move out of my parent's house. I'm not paying bills for living but I'm paying for grad school and my Healthcare. I've only lived away from them in college when I dormed as well as lived in an off campus house. I'm trying really hard to get a better job but its hard because I can't gain experience if jobs won't hire me in the first place. I only make 24 an hour in change and am tired of being stuck.I feel like this grad school program is my only option but its in public health and the salaries don't sound promising. I'm 34 btw and really wanna move up in life but its hard because the cost of living here is ridiculous. My mother thinks I should drop this program and take a civil service exam because I don't seem passionate in this path. I wanna help people but I don't wanna be broke doing it. I'm trying to work with the career counselor. Obviously a partner isn't the only reason I want to move up in life but I never had a girlfriend and want to experience a relationship for once.

Be honest ladies, should I even bother? For a bunch of reasons I've never been able to move out of my parent's house. I'm not paying bills for living but I'm paying for grad school and my Healthcare. I've only lived away from them in college when I dormed as well as lived in an off campus house. I'm trying really hard to get a better job but its hard because I can't gain experience if jobs won't hire me in the first place. I only make 24 an hour in change and am tired of being stuck.I feel like this grad school program is my only option but its in public health and the salaries don't sound promising. I'm 34 btw and really wanna move up in life but its hard because the cost of living here is ridiculous. My mother thinks I should drop this program and take a civil service exam because I don't seem passionate in this path. I wanna help people but I don't wanna be broke doing it. I'm trying to work with the career counselor. Obviously a partner isn't the only reason I want to move up in life but I never had a girlfriend and want to experience a relationship for once.

Yep, you called it, conversation died after an initially promising beginning. Thank you! Moving on!

I think I know what you're talking about. Let me give my take with some examples, and feel free to disagree: I'm not married, no kids, no woman in my life. I'm a 39 y/o man (turning 40 in April). I haven't been in any serious relationship, per se, although, I have gone out with women I thought was going somewhere with. Now, for me, the toughest part for me was the uncertainty, not knowing whether or not a woman likes you the same way you like them. You know what's in your heart, but not whoever the woman is at the time. It drove me nuts because anytime I would think something was going to happen, it was always followed up by uncertainty because the lack of communication and action at times, while others it looks like they want you (when in reality, they're just being flirty but not serious). Probably the worst part of it was I would think about the woman at the time often. Because of the uncertainty, it made me wonder not just whether or not if she wanted me but also what life would be like with her and not, in my mind, screwing it up. One example was a woman back during the year of the CVD-19 lockdowns when some regulations were being lifted. Long story on her, but this was the first of the closest to a serious relationship. She lost her brother and her ex-fiance the same year. In the end, it never worked out between us. But I always took her out, we had fun, talked for hours on end, and shared closest thoughts with one and other. She had a tough way to go growing up and even throughout her earlier adulthood. We shared quite a bit in common, and our families knew each other well. I was thinking, at the time, that she might be able to turn around on being down and we'd be official. We were making plans on doing stuff together, as well. The one thing I thought was how she would interact with my family and friends. We got along well, and her sister and brother in-law are now friends of mine, so I really thought we were going somewhere. The uncertainty kicked in when she ghosted me. I had no idea what was going on and rationalized it to her being depressed over her deceased brother, but it ultimately came down to her missing her ex-fiance, who she said was an awful person. Found out, though, she had the guy's number on her phone, even though it had been over 5 years since they had broke off the engagement. But I didn't know this for certain until over a year later when her sister told me that was the case, so during the time she ghosted me, I simply thought it was something more understandable. It wasn't, and it was revealed to me after this woman called it off with me after I got back from vacation. Drove me nuts because I thought that, maybe, she actually was becoming my girlfriend in its own strange way and just didn't know it yet. Obviously wasn't true, but even still, the uncertainty made me feel so uncomfortable. The next woman actually displayed more signs of interest in the Summer of 2021. She was older but not by much and much more responsive. I met her at a ballroom studio just short of an hour of where I lived. I was trying to get my mind off of the last woman and wanted to do something new, so, before the lockdowns in 2020 happened, my parents suggested to check out ballroom dance because they were doing it socially. I did and enjoyed it, and I've been doing since then with a studio ran by 2 professionals (I compete and showcase, on top of doing it socially). Anyway, to make another long story short, she seemingly expressed a lot of interest in me. We danced a lot together, hung out, and eventually I did go out with her. Like the last woman, I thought we were going somewhere, but ultimately didn't. Of course, like the last woman, there were some uncertainties. Now, we were friends to start but something seemed like it grew. However, there were times whenever we decided to meet up, she'd flake on me. More times than that, though, she hung out and did more than the last woman. When we met, she was seeing the head of the studio and looking to get out of the relationship because the owner wasn't a good person at all. Even still, because of the seeming interest in me, it was uncertain because how do I know if I was being played? Not only that, her flirtatious nature. Made seem like she wanted me. There was one time when she had shown me a pic of herself without her top and putting herself on me on several times. The greatest uncertainty came when other men were chasing her, including a friend of mine who was developing feelings for her. In the end, I had to get out of it because it was becoming too much of a question mark for me to bear, and she ended up with another man (which didn't last anymore than 2 years). In this instance the truth, although disappointing, was much better and I started to feel better, while the uncertainty was not healthy at all. The last example is a woman who I liked the most, and still friends with, although it's not quite the same. She's nice, like me, very pretty, and outgoing. Like the first woman in this post, I got along great with her sister and brother in-law, as well as the rest of her family. We did a lot together, never really had times where she flaked, and got to share a lot more personal stuff. Once again, long story short, we did things together for 2 years, met at the same time as woman number 2 (same dance studio), so we knew each other very well. In the first half of 2024, though, family problems had came up. I couldn't say if it ultimately was the reason why we didn't work out, but but before Summer started, she revealed we were not going to work out. Later on during the Summer, a mutual friend said she got a boyfriend. I didn't believe it at first because she had not have a bf since 3 years prior. She gone out with dudes before we considered each other, but nothing serious. More like dudes that wanted the physical part but nothing of substance. But, later on, out of the blue, I met the boyfriend. Heart broken twice. The uncertainty in situation wasn't whether or not she had a boyfriend, but, at the time, when we were going to be official. I liked her a lot, and she seemingly liked me the same way. We shared a lot in common, had a lot of fun together, invited each other to certain family events, shared a lot of private thoughts with each other, so the question became when, not if, at the time. There were even people who thought we were together, and she kissed me during her birthday. She was practically everything I wanted in a woman, but I couldn't understand the hold up. Was it going to be weird for her to have others see us together? Was she afraid that I might end up being like her ex-boyfriend? What was the fear that she may have had? This was probably not only the most uncertain I was but also frustrated because it felt like I was close to having a serious relationship with the ideal woman. But, like the others, the truth came out and it wasn't meant to be. Driven home twice heart broken, once after she told me we were not happening and the night I met her boyfriend. I had never felt like that in quite some time. After the last woman told me she wasn't interested, a friend of mine was trying to hook me up with a lady friend of hers. I tried, but I just was not into her at all, and since then, I made it a choice just to remain single. There were others trying to hook me up with women they knew, but I just didn't want to go through it anymore. Not because of the fact that there aren't many women that are into me. I can accept that simple fact. I'm just a simple, average man, nothing special to look at, so I have no question at all on that. Rather, it's the uncertainty of a woman who may like me more than just a friend. That's what I'm more concerned about. I've been burned so many times in the past, ending up with heart ache or a broken heart, all because I'm wasn't even sure whether or not the women of the past even liked me or not. I got myself all worked up due to me thinking whether or not something is going to happen. There's a woman that goes to my dance studio who seems very much like the last woman I really liked. She's single, share many of the same beliefs, and we get along good, but that doesn't mean she likes me in that way. I've walked down this path so many times, and each time I do, it seems like I get closer, but when it seems like the closer I get, the more hurt I go through. The truth, although not the most attractive at times, is always better than uncertainty. I would much rather know up front if someone likes me or not rather than guess, especially with women I like. I'm just concluding if there are any that I do like, I'm assuming they're not interested. It's been the story of my life in this regard, so far, and it doesn't look like it's going to change any time soon. I'm not trying to be a downer because, overall, life's been good, but me with a wife and kids in the future, I don't see it happening. That's how many other men feel, too. It's just tough right now, and the last thing we want is uncertainty with the women we like. That's my answer, and I hope this helps bring a better idea on what you'd rather choose over the other.

Right, which is why I said some people are naturally flirty. It doesn't always have to be alcohol-induced. Sometimes it means more, sometimes it doesn't. I think it's worth reaching out to her again. You didn't start a conversation last time so it follows that she didn't really, etiher. You'll only be able to gague her actual interest by seeing if she wants to meet up sometime.

This seems a tad hostile. Nonetheless, thank you for your reply.

Truth be told, I think she played you. There's people out there that get others on the hook and put them in the friendzone, while displaying fake interest in those they get to pay attention to them. They'll be charming and try to flatter you, but it's theatre. Years ago, there was a woman who use to be a bartender at one of my favorite bars. She was nice when I was there, we talked quite a bit, I thought she was attractive, and never had any problems with her. At the time, she was working there until she got her nursing degree, and what made it even better was she was about my age. She told me I was easy to talk to, got along good with her, and eventually I got her phone number. However, around the time I did, she told me she was "kind of seeing someone" which, at the time before I wised up to this talk and modern dating, meant they weren't serious. I only texted her once, but no response. Only time I got to talk to her was when she was working, and at times she got flirty. She told me I should go over where she played pool, which I did eventually. When I went, though, other guys were after her and eyes were on me from these men in a non-welcoming way. To some degree, too, I didn't feel the welcome from her either. It was as if the only time she was fine talking to me was when I was at the bar. Even a friend of mine at the time told me after we left the place with the pool tables that she wasn't into me. Some time later, she was engaged to another man and eventually got married. After the ordeal, I concluded that I was used. I was good enough to give her money and attention, but not good enough for a romantic relationship. I had other women before who did something similar, but this one made me realize how I was seen, an object. The only thing was she probably didn't expect me to actually go over to the place she suggested I should meet up with her because pool isn't really my thing. Something else I learned, though, was how she interacted with other men. When I was at the bar she worked at, she always was touchy feely with me, but at the pool table bar, I never received it. Instead, she did it with other guys. Around the time of that happening, she was leaving the bar she worked at and to this day I wonder if she may had already been done with me, as if I served my purpose. Sad because I thought she'd be different, but turned out to be a manipulator. I still go to the bar where I met her because it's a cool place to have drinks and hang out with friends, but that part of my past will always be there as a reminder of to be careful who I involve myself with. The point I'm making here is this woman you talked about might just be using you for a purpose that's not involving romance. Like the woman in my story, she is looking to friend zone you and only utilize you whenever the guy she actually wants comes along. Happened to me and many other men, used for our resources and attention. I would definitely move on from this woman. Your time and mental health are both valuable. Don't allow yourself to get led on by someone who isn't responding to you. If she likes you, she will go out of her way to make sure she responds to your texts. Liking and viewing some photos on social media doesn't mean much in the bigger picture. She has to be willing to both talk and see you in person whenever she can. Honestly, from one guy to another, the woman has to like you more than you like her, assuming you're interested. There's this belief that men have to pursue the women they like, but I will respectfully disagree. Yeah, if you like her you should talk, but she needs to be putting in as much, if not MORE, effort to do the same. They do it with the men they do like all the time and go out of their way to ensure those guys still like them by doing the things these same dudes enjoy. Liking and viewing photos isn't one of them, but actually go out and being seen with them. These same women will respond to their texts quickly, too. Make no mistake, even at work, many of them will have their phones glued to their hips and if it's the men they like they will respond ASAP. To some degree, the idea that answering a text too quickly turns somebody off, it's not entirely true, especially if its someone you like. I've seen instances women I like say they're normally not on their phone much and when I got together with them, they're on it constantly. I've heard the same women say they don't text much nor respond right away to someone else's message, but I hear their phones' text notifications ding, whip them out, read the message, then respond almost immediately. Yeah, they can be a little to busy to answer at times, but it doesn't happen often. In conclusion, if she responds to your text(s) and she gives an excuse, take it with some salt. Don't get too wrapped up with her. I don't want to see you get a broken heart all because she isn't talking to you much or not at all. Focus on you, and if there is another woman that comes along that you like and she is being far more responsive, forget this other one. Not worth your time. Hope this helps!

I can only speak from my own position of postponing my career and most social and romantic aspects of my own life to deal with elder-care over the last two years. It's one thing to voluntarily handle heavy pressures on a job that one can quit or change at will. It's entirely another to face the unavoidable suffering of loved ones who've raised you and have loved you your whole life. Can you give us more details about the stressors your wife contends with? Is her in-home help required for an indefinite period to avoid the expense and potential neglect from outside services or worse, a nursing home? Have the two of you discussed plans to consolidate your living situations to include living near or with her parents? What can you do to help wife's situation with her parents beyond expecting her to compartmentalize her stress in favor of focusing on you?

I support you in envisioning the future you want to move TOWARD rather than continuing your stagnation in a focus on this man. I encourage you to pursue some counseling or other forms of self-help to learn why you've been willing to limit yourself to making your focus so small for so long. We all do stuff for reasons, and if the idea of finding an available man for a committed relationship is not of interest to you, it may be helpful to figure out why. From there, you can operate on conscious decisions rather than romanticize scraps from someone who clearly owns the capacity for deception and disloyalty. What made it all worth it to you to squelch your own potential this way? What do you intend to change for yourself to enjoy your life beyond this man?

Very well said, and very true! It's a hard lesson to learn, but it sure makes things a helluva lot easier afterwards! Nah, going at it in good fun. Wouldn't see the point in it otherwise, anyway, not planning on finding a relationship which'd kill me with stress-related diseases:))

Yeah, people say and do a hell of a lot of things they dont really mean when they are out socialising, especially if alcohol was involved. Its surely annoying if you value consistency but it isnt personal. If someone turns out to be flaky not your problem.

If wife raises your past mistakes again, ask her whether she wants to consider the two of you working together as a couple on the same side, or whether she wants to regard you as her adversary and continue treating you as such. Ask her if she's willing to pursue couple's counseling to work this out. If not, tell her that raising the same old past grievances again is off the table, then, for both of you, and the first one to bring it up must schedule and pay for your first counseling session. Meanwhile, have you worked with a therapist on your own to figure out how important any of this 'must' be to keep spinning yourself into a deeper hole about it? If you're losing mental self-control as you age, that would be a good place to start for treatment.

Dealing with your marital intimacy requires the help of an expert with a precision tool, not a clumsy slam with a sledgehammer. Discuss with your therapist a referral to a couple's counselor who specializes in sex issues. If you really want to blow up your marriage, then go ahead and blow it up. That's not against the law; it's just not going to buy you anything but the distraction of drama to the detriment of all--and for zero payoff.

Sorry to dredge up old comments, wanted to add a bit of context I'd missed the first time: she was zero drinks deep when the heavy flirting started, I was the drunk one:)) Another major part of why I was mulling this possibility over in my head, otherwise I wouldn't have even considered it if we both had been drunk.

Yep, funnily enough, the fact that I started off by thinking I should drop it has eased a lot of the pressure of actually doing it. I'll take it as it comes and move forward with the info, but I won't take it personally. No point.

Don't poop where you eat is a saying for a reason. Unless you or she is planning to leave the company in the immediate future, it is not a good idea to date a co-worker, especially one you have long, daily interactions with.

Yeah. Over the years Ive learned not to expect too much from someone you meet in a bar, even if shes doing backflips and saying she wants to marry you that night. It's too much of a superficial setting. Protect your peace by not attaching any meaning to the outcome. If she doesnt text back or gives a very flaky answer just shrug and move on. But absolutely give it a shot, why not?

Ah, I was referring to the Instagram thing in a vacuum, pretty much. Exactly what you specify, that I should've given more were I to expect more of a reply, but I don't think I was thinking of starting a conversation when I did. More like continuing the one we had earlier that night.

Thank you! Makes a lot of sense, I was just thinking I didn't want be a creep, I guess.

Thanks so much! My thinking exactly, which is why I was leaning toward dropping the whole thing:)) Anyway, I'll give it a shot and I'll see what comes of it!

Thank you! I'll drop a line later today! To be honest, I only took that Instagram thing to indicate that maybe attraction didn't last through the night on her end, that's all.

Thank you! Wow, this is heading in the complete opposite direction, I was convinced I'd get told to leave her alone=)) I'll drop a line today and I'll ask her out. Didn't want to do this any earlier because I was VERY drunk that night, sole reason:)) As for the stringing along bit, seems to happen with or without my input:))