Codependent narcissist (that's me!) falls in love with girl who may have BPD

[LD1990]

Hello all,

 

I've been doing a lot of reading after my first heartbreak. I'm sorry about how long this got. My ex-girlfriend and I had a very turbulent relationship, and it seems some of the stuff I've read may apply to us, although obviously I can't be sure of any disorders she or I have.

 

She'll be 22 at the end of this month, I'll be 26 at the end of May. We got together April 2014 after she had just dumped her boyfriend of 9 months because, according to her, she never really cared about him. We started living together September of that same year. I've been a loner my whole life, I've made strong connections with very few people, and pretty much all my relationships were short flings where I couldn't really connect. I met my ex and that all changed. I loved being around her so much. We were so physically, mentally, and sexually compatible. I'm an introvert, and I've always valued my alone time after socializing. She transcended that for me, I wanted her to be part of that alone time. I knew I was crazy about her, I wanted us to live together as soon as possible, and things felt so right.

 

We met each other's families very early. Her parents divorced when she was young and her dad wasn't around much, although she has seen him more the last couple years. Her mom, for my ex's whole life, would go through periods of treating her terribly for minor offenses and then being really nice to her. Looking back, the signs of trouble were there. My ex and I went to the grocery store once and she walked away as I was in the middle of saying something to her. I got annoyed and told her it's rude to just walk away when someone's saying something to you. She got so mad at me that she said she didn't think she could do this anymore. I panicked, scared of losing her, and asked her to forgive me, she eventually did.

 

She went to visit her aunt across the country for a couple weeks, and later told me she did it to prove to herself she didn't need me, then found out she actually did. She moved in with me shortly after getting back. Things were very up and down, fights became more frequent and she was often upset with me for things I couldn't control. She'd get mad at me about my past flings, or she'd get mad and insecure if we watched a movie that had a naked woman in it, and then take it out on me. She also was flirting behind my back over text with an overseas penpal who she had met several years ago. She kept doing it and lying to me about it, she later told me that it was because she was scared to love me and the way she talked to him about love was just a fantasy, but she really loved me. I kept trying to get her to stop and she'd lie to me about stopping, eventually I told her we were done and then she said she'd do anything to keep me, so I told her to block him on everything.

 

I don't want to make it seem like I'm innocent here and she's this terrible person. I was always jealous and insecure with her. I didn't like when she went out with friends, and I didn't want her to hang out with guy friends without me there. I always wanted to be around her. I got much worse after this penpal incident. I'd check her phone, social media, emails. I got more and more controlling, eventually basically telling her she couldn't see friends without me or we'd breakup. And it seemed like something shifted at about the 9 month mark. Before, we'd be great, and then she would find something wrong and want to leave, and I'd have to beg for her to stay. Well, I stopped begging and started telling her to do whatever she wanted. All of a sudden I had all the power, because she didn't want to leave. She would still cause arguments, but she was the one who ended up feeling bad while I felt like I wasn't doing anything wrong. I guess what I wonder about myself is, did I change and become this horrible boyfriend as my natural controlling tendencies came out? Was this a response to her hurting me? Or both? I really don't know.

 

In case you're thinking we were absolutely nuts to be with each other through all this, let me tell you, the highs were the most amazing I've ever experienced. I really loved her with all my heart and thought she felt the same for me. We made sacrifices for each other, we tried to get better for each other and do things that would make the other person happy, and we just had a blast together. Her family loved me, my family loved her, and everyone who saw us thought we were a great couple. But the fights were frequent too, I doubt we went a week without some fight. Twice she moved back in with her mom for a couple days. February 4, 2016 was the day we broke up for good. She told me she got into a study abroad program and was planning to go. I got upset because she had told me several months prior that studying abroad wasn't part of her plan anymore, and I didn't like that she was just gonna go without considering our relationship, our apartment together, and the cat we had that she wanted. We had also already made plans regarding when we'd travel in the coming years, so I felt like she was breaking our compromise there. I, truthfully, acted like a jerk. The next day, we continued arguing, and I checked her phone while she was sleeping. A guy in her art class had texted her about how he was going to this art event, and she responded with a kissy face and saying how she had been thinking about him all day. I got mad at her, and then she told me he's gay. I've done some social media stalking on this guy, based on appearances alone it's possible she's telling the truth, but I don't know. Anyways, a day later she moved back in with her mom.

 

For the first couple days she gave me hope, saying she still wants a life with me and we'll be together no matter what, while also saying she needs time and space and we need to work on ourselves. She pointed out that we had an abusive relationship, and often blamed me for things, while also saying she still loved me. I tried several romantic gestures, and they worked great! Just kidding, of course they didn't. I'd get a "you're sweet" at best. After about five days of trying, I wished her the best and stopped going after her. She paid rent for February, so I let her keep some things at the apartment while she figured out what to do with them. When I stopped pursuing her, she changed. She stopped by unannounced to "see that I'm okay." She got upset with me over text because her mom, who she thinks is psychic, had a vision of me sleeping with an ex. She sent me a love letter saying how great I am but she knows she made the right choice. When I'd try to act nonchalant with her, she'd flip out and assume I was seeing someone. She also started blaming me for everything. Telling me I was a jerk for two years, it's all my fault that she left, and that she wanted to get back together but thought that I would try harder, and because I only tried for a week obviously I don't care about her. I got upset once when I texted her about picking up her stuff, because she called me back later from a different number. I looked up the number and it was her "gay friend." I told her via text that it was kind of a cheap shot calling me from that number. She said she was out of town and her phone didn't work so she used a friend's phone, and I was making ridiculous assumptions. We argued a bit about when she'd get her things (she kept stalling to try and use my apartment as storage indefinitely, which I wasn't having), but then she would apologize and say she was just still mad at me. At 11:30 one night she texted me out of nowhere to tell me she wasn't with anyone, she knew it didn't matter but it bothered her that I think that, and she loves me and means it but we have to go on our separate paths. I wished her luck and said we couldn't talk anymore. Her mom finally set up a day with me to get the rest of their large items here, her mom also mentioned to me that my ex is sad, confused and under a lot of pressure.

 

The scariest part of this all is how easily my ex could lie to me without any apparent remorse. She told me so many lies about this study abroad program, she even lied to my mom and grandmother about getting in, and then used their support as ammunition against me. When I tried my last romantic gesture, she sat there with tears in her eyes and her voice cracking, saying she had already signed up for study abroad classes and couldn't change that now. It broke my heart. Well, guess what? She hadn't even completed the application at that time! She told me later, completely nonchalantly, that she was gonna study abroad in a different country instead.

 

Well, that was quite the saga. I'm no psychologist, although the field has always interested me. My ex shows several traits of borderline personality disorder, and what I read about it really reminded me of our relationship. From what I've read of attachment styles, I seem to fit the anxious-preoccupied style, while she fits the fearful-avoidant style. I'm pretty confident I'm codependent. As far as narcissism, I feel like I have certain strong traits, but lack others. I do fluctuate between holding an extremely high opinion of myself, and feeling very insecure. I sometimes feel like I have two personalities in my head. The prideful, stubborn side of myself that puts my needs above everything. That side came out when my ex talked about studying abroad, I was disrespectful, had a very "my way or the highway" attitude, and just didn't listen to her at all. Then there's the insecure side that just wants love and would do anything for it. That side used to come out when my ex threatened to leave and I'd beg her to stay, offering to do anything and completely sacrificing my dignity. On the other hand, if I'm a narcissist, shouldn't I be unaware of it? And they say narcissists can't really love anyone else, and although my experience with love is limited, I really do feel like I loved this woman. I wanted to be with her forever, I wanted us to have an amazing life together, I guess my mistake was assuming I knew what kind of life we needed, and not taking her opinion into account.

 

Writing all this out, our relationship looks terrible. My Dad says I got lucky, I sure don't feel lucky though. I mean, we drove each other crazy so many times, fought for hours, there were even times she hit herself or made suicide attempts, although I think that was more to get my attention than actually hurt herself. The highs were just so amazing though, and I always thought "All we have to do is communicate better, stop taking the bad moments to extremes, and we'll be great." She made me feel like the most amazing man, and now I wonder if it was all just part of her pattern. Was I really special to her, or am I just another guy? I mean, I'm the only guy she lived with. And she let me deeper into her life and family than anyone, that I know for sure. The way we loved each other, it was like each of us was perfect for the other, and I loved that feeling. It really felt like I'd found my soulmate. I know we're bad for each other, it still just sucks. I know the deal, no contact, work on myself. I've just reread this and I feel like an idiot for wanting her, but I still do. I guess I just want advice regarding bettering myself and why I put up with her lying to me so much. I'm just really confused and still sad right now. Any comments or support are appreciated. Thank you.

[266696687]

Hello all,

 

I've been doing a lot of reading after my first heartbreak. I'm sorry about how long this got. My ex-girlfriend and I had a very turbulent relationship, and it seems some of the stuff I've read may apply to us, although obviously I can't be sure of any disorders she or I have.

 

She'll be 22 at the end of this month, I'll be 26 at the end of May. We got together April 2014 after she had just dumped her boyfriend of 9 months because, according to her, she never really cared about him. We started living together September of that same year. I've been a loner my whole life, I've made strong connections with very few people, and pretty much all my relationships were short flings where I couldn't really connect. I met my ex and that all changed. I loved being around her so much. We were so physically, mentally, and sexually compatible. I'm an introvert, and I've always valued my alone time after socializing. She transcended that for me, I wanted her to be part of that alone time. I knew I was crazy about her, I wanted us to live together as soon as possible, and things felt so right.

 

We met each other's families very early. Her parents divorced when she was young and her dad wasn't around much, although she has seen him more the last couple years. Her mom, for my ex's whole life, would go through periods of treating her terribly for minor offenses and then being really nice to her. Looking back, the signs of trouble were there. My ex and I went to the grocery store once and she walked away as I was in the middle of saying something to her. I got annoyed and told her it's rude to just walk away when someone's saying something to you. She got so mad at me that she said she didn't think she could do this anymore. I panicked, scared of losing her, and asked her to forgive me, she eventually did.

 

She went to visit her aunt across the country for a couple weeks, and later told me she did it to prove to herself she didn't need me, then found out she actually did. She moved in with me shortly after getting back. Things were very up and down, fights became more frequent and she was often upset with me for things I couldn't control. She'd get mad at me about my past flings, or she'd get mad and insecure if we watched a movie that had a naked woman in it, and then take it out on me. She also was flirting behind my back over text with an overseas penpal who she had met several years ago. She kept doing it and lying to me about it, she later told me that it was because she was scared to love me and the way she talked to him about love was just a fantasy, but she really loved me. I kept trying to get her to stop and she'd lie to me about stopping, eventually I told her we were done and then she said she'd do anything to keep me, so I told her to block him on everything.

 

I don't want to make it seem like I'm innocent here and she's this terrible person. I was always jealous and insecure with her. I didn't like when she went out with friends, and I didn't want her to hang out with guy friends without me there. I always wanted to be around her. I got much worse after this penpal incident. I'd check her phone, social media, emails. I got more and more controlling, eventually basically telling her she couldn't see friends without me or we'd breakup. And it seemed like something shifted at about the 9 month mark. Before, we'd be great, and then she would find something wrong and want to leave, and I'd have to beg for her to stay. Well, I stopped begging and started telling her to do whatever she wanted. All of a sudden I had all the power, because she didn't want to leave. She would still cause arguments, but she was the one who ended up feeling bad while I felt like I wasn't doing anything wrong. I guess what I wonder about myself is, did I change and become this horrible boyfriend as my natural controlling tendencies came out? Was this a response to her hurting me? Or both? I really don't know.

 

In case you're thinking we were absolutely nuts to be with each other through all this, let me tell you, the highs were the most amazing I've ever experienced. I really loved her with all my heart and thought she felt the same for me. We made sacrifices for each other, we tried to get better for each other and do things that would make the other person happy, and we just had a blast together. Her family loved me, my family loved her, and everyone who saw us thought we were a great couple. But the fights were frequent too, I doubt we went a week without some fight. Twice she moved back in with her mom for a couple days. February 4, 2016 was the day we broke up for good. She told me she got into a study abroad program and was planning to go. I got upset because she had told me several months prior that studying abroad wasn't part of her plan anymore, and I didn't like that she was just gonna go without considering our relationship, our apartment together, and the cat we had that she wanted. We had also already made plans regarding when we'd travel in the coming years, so I felt like she was breaking our compromise there. I, truthfully, acted like a jerk. The next day, we continued arguing, and I checked her phone while she was sleeping. A guy in her art class had texted her about how he was going to this art event, and she responded with a kissy face and saying how she had been thinking about him all day. I got mad at her, and then she told me he's gay. I've done some social media stalking on this guy, based on appearances alone it's possible she's telling the truth, but I don't know. Anyways, a day later she moved back in with her mom.

 

For the first couple days she gave me hope, saying she still wants a life with me and we'll be together no matter what, while also saying she needs time and space and we need to work on ourselves. She pointed out that we had an abusive relationship, and often blamed me for things, while also saying she still loved me. I tried several romantic gestures, and they worked great! Just kidding, of course they didn't. I'd get a "you're sweet" at best. After about five days of trying, I wished her the best and stopped going after her. She paid rent for February, so I let her keep some things at the apartment while she figured out what to do with them. When I stopped pursuing her, she changed. She stopped by unannounced to "see that I'm okay." She got upset with me over text because her mom, who she thinks is psychic, had a vision of me sleeping with an ex. She sent me a love letter saying how great I am but she knows she made the right choice. When I'd try to act nonchalant with her, she'd flip out and assume I was seeing someone. She also started blaming me for everything. Telling me I was a jerk for two years, it's all my fault that she left, and that she wanted to get back together but thought that I would try harder, and because I only tried for a week obviously I don't care about her. I got upset once when I texted her about picking up her stuff, because she called me back later from a different number. I looked up the number and it was her "gay friend." I told her via text that it was kind of a cheap shot calling me from that number. She said she was out of town and her phone didn't work so she used a friend's phone, and I was making ridiculous assumptions. We argued a bit about when she'd get her things (she kept stalling to try and use my apartment as storage indefinitely, which I wasn't having), but then she would apologize and say she was just still mad at me. At 11:30 one night she texted me out of nowhere to tell me she wasn't with anyone, she knew it didn't matter but it bothered her that I think that, and she loves me and means it but we have to go on our separate paths. I wished her luck and said we couldn't talk anymore. Her mom finally set up a day with me to get the rest of their large items here, her mom also mentioned to me that my ex is sad, confused and under a lot of pressure.

 

The scariest part of this all is how easily my ex could lie to me without any apparent remorse. She told me so many lies about this study abroad program, she even lied to my mom and grandmother about getting in, and then used their support as ammunition against me. When I tried my last romantic gesture, she sat there with tears in her eyes and her voice cracking, saying she had already signed up for study abroad classes and couldn't change that now. It broke my heart. Well, guess what? She hadn't even completed the application at that time! She told me later, completely nonchalantly, that she was gonna study abroad in a different country instead.

 

Well, that was quite the saga. I'm no psychologist, although the field has always interested me. My ex shows several traits of borderline personality disorder, and what I read about it really reminded me of our relationship. From what I've read of attachment styles, I seem to fit the anxious-preoccupied style, while she fits the fearful-avoidant style. I'm pretty confident I'm codependent. As far as narcissism, I feel like I have certain strong traits, but lack others. I do fluctuate between holding an extremely high opinion of myself, and feeling very insecure. I sometimes feel like I have two personalities in my head. The prideful, stubborn side of myself that puts my needs above everything. That side came out when my ex talked about studying abroad, I was disrespectful, had a very "my way or the highway" attitude, and just didn't listen to her at all. Then there's the insecure side that just wants love and would do anything for it. That side used to come out when my ex threatened to leave and I'd beg her to stay, offering to do anything and completely sacrificing my dignity. On the other hand, if I'm a narcissist, shouldn't I be unaware of it? And they say narcissists can't really love anyone else, and although my experience with love is limited, I really do feel like I loved this woman. I wanted to be with her forever, I wanted us to have an amazing life together, I guess my mistake was assuming I knew what kind of life we needed, and not taking her opinion into account.

 

Writing all this out, our relationship looks terrible. My Dad says I got lucky, I sure don't feel lucky though. I mean, we drove each other crazy so many times, fought for hours, there were even times she hit herself or made suicide attempts, although I think that was more to get my attention than actually hurt herself. The highs were just so amazing though, and I always thought "All we have to do is communicate better, stop taking the bad moments to extremes, and we'll be great." She made me feel like the most amazing man, and now I wonder if it was all just part of her pattern. Was I really special to her, or am I just another guy? I mean, I'm the only guy she lived with. And she let me deeper into her life and family than anyone, that I know for sure. The way we loved each other, it was like each of us was perfect for the other, and I loved that feeling. It really felt like I'd found my soulmate. I know we're bad for each other, it still just sucks. I know the deal, no contact, work on myself. I've just reread this and I feel like an idiot for wanting her, but I still do. I guess I just want advice regarding bettering myself and why I put up with her lying to me so much. I'm just really confused and still sad right now. Any comments or support are appreciated. Thank you.

 

I don't think you're a narcissist. You seem to have far to much empathy through your post but you do sound co-dependant. The fact you hadn't really experienced love prior to this is not unusual for your age. You just hadn't met someone you had those feelings for yet.

 

If your girlfriend was BPD then you need to let her go. As you've seen already she creates high stress and drama in your life along with some serious emotional highs. It's a highly addicting combination and one of the symptoms of these relationships post split is questioning your own mental wellbeing which you are doing now. i.e am I the problem? Or are we both mentally ill.

 

I'd suggest you seek some therapy to work through these issues and implement NC with her to see if time away from her gives you a bit more perspective.

 

Yes you are right very few narcissists would question if they are a narcissist. It's something they are usually so blind to it usually takes years of self awareness or therapy for them to even accept the diagnosis that's if they ever seek help at all (they are unlikely too). The fact you are willing to accept a diagnosis of narcissist so easily suggests that you in all likelihood are not one. Again it's more than likely a symptom of being involved with someone who may have BPD or is highly toxic.

 

You need to keep her out of your life. The relationship is highly damaging to you and you need to use NC so you can heal.

Edited March 10, 2016 by 266696687

[elaine567]

The truth is that when faced with a controlling person, the other person ends up lying to avoid confrontation.

I am sorry but "love" is not about controlling people, you went overboard here.

Please try and sort yourself out before you get involved with anyone else

[266696687]

The truth is that when faced with a controlling person, the other person ends up lying to avoid confrontation.

I am sorry but "love" is not about controlling people, you went overboard here.

Please try and sort yourself out before you get involved with anyone else

 

Also agree with this here. He certainly has some issues to deal with himself before engaging in another relationship.

 

A person who might have BPD and someone controlling would make for a very toxic relationship.

[LD1990]

Thank you both for your responses. I'm sure my controlling nature didn't help with her lying, but in all honestly, she's the type of person who lies frequently regardless, about little things and big things. I mean, she lied to my family about getting into a study abroad program, when she hadn't applied yet. I think she has BPD, everything I've read just fits too well with what I experienced.

 

I accept that our respective flaws brought out the worst in each other. "Very toxic" is an excellent way to describe things. I think her flirting with this overseas penpal was a big turning point, though. I never checked any of her stuff before that, because I trusted her. Afterwards, I wanted to trust her, because I loved her, but I never could. I probably should've ended things, but love kept me going.

 

I'm doing NC, her mom's picking up the rest of her stuff tomorrow so I shouldn't have to see or hear from her. This is still ridiculously hard. I know that I shouldn't want her back, but I do. This woman frustrates the hell out of me (she told me she sent my keys back, guess what? No keys), being in a relationship with her was constant fighting, and yet I still would love to see her again. I just seem to go back and forth between being really mad at her and then sad that she's gone.

[RRM321]

Neither of you is likely personality disordered. Keep in mind these traits exist in everyone and just like baking a cake - it's the quantity of each ingredient that determines what comes out of the oven. It doesn't require a disorder to leave a bad taste in your mouth.

 

You can be a 'playa' and not be a narcissist. The younger you are the more this tends to be true since normal (healthy) narcissism peaks in adolescence and declines with age. A disordered person's course runs the other way - and they become more dysfunctional with age.

 

The biggest factor in your story might be your minimal experience with relationships. This makes you more protective (controlling) of the relationships you do get into, as well as more likely to be over-the-top giving when it comes to doing the work of a relationship. This doesn't make you a monster - in fact, quite the contrary. It makes you an easy mark for exploitation.

 

There's very little risk in your exGF treating you badly because you just keep on - keepin' on. Pace yourself. If it feels intense right from the beginning - it's usually because you're on the proving ground - and should you survive exploitation boot camp you'll be assigned a relentless tour of duty.

[lana-banana]

She probably does not have BPD just as you are probably not a codependent narcissist. Personality disorders are not like being diagnosed with cancer; they're clusters of symptoms used to help doctors treat their patients. Most people will exhibit many of the symptoms, and perhaps even many of the clusters, at intervals throughout their lives. The presence of some or even all the symptoms doesn't necessarily warrant a diagnosis.

 

What I'm trying to say is you're both young people still learning and growing. I'm not trying to excuse any of the behavior here---she seems reckless and callous, you seem deeply controlling---but these aren't fixed. You will change a lot before you're 30. I know it's easy to slap labels on a situation rather than truly reflect on it, but you would be better served by considering what you learned and how those lessons will help you in future relationships. What kinds of negative behaviors do you exhibit? How did you cope with these stressful situations? How can you change yourself for the better?

 

Take care of yourself. Don't try to be a paragon of logic and consistency right now. Your feelings are going to be up and down for the next few weeks and likely months. Focus on eating healthy and getting plenty of exercise, and write your emotions in a notebook to help keep track of the internal rollercoaster. You'll eventually be fine, I promise. But step one is acknowledging reality isn't as simple as a couple of Wikipedia articles on the DSM-V.

[266696687]

Thank you both for your responses. I'm sure my controlling nature didn't help with her lying, but in all honestly, she's the type of person who lies frequently regardless, about little things and big things. I mean, she lied to my family about getting into a study abroad program, when she hadn't applied yet. I think she has BPD, everything I've read just fits too well with what I experienced.

 

I accept that our respective flaws brought out the worst in each other. "Very toxic" is an excellent way to describe things. I think her flirting with this overseas penpal was a big turning point, though. I never checked any of her stuff before that, because I trusted her. Afterwards, I wanted to trust her, because I loved her, but I never could. I probably should've ended things, but love kept me going.

 

I'm doing NC, her mom's picking up the rest of her stuff tomorrow so I shouldn't have to see or hear from her. This is still ridiculously hard. I know that I shouldn't want her back, but I do. This woman frustrates the hell out of me (she told me she sent my keys back, guess what? No keys), being in a relationship with her was constant fighting, and yet I still would love to see her again. I just seem to go back and forth between being really mad at her and then sad that she's gone.

 

She may have BPD or she may not. We can't diagnose her for you. What you know for a fact is that this relationship was highly toxic and any further engagement or continuation will damage you both further.

 

It's over and now you need to focus on yourself to ensure you do not repeat the same pattern for the next relationship you have.

 

It's time to focus on yourself rather than her behaviour. Work on healing, learning from this experience and dealing with the issues you are now aware of in yourself. Do what you can to improve and better yourself.

 

Stay in strict NC so that you can move on. Do it for both of you knowing that continuing a toxic relationship is not beneficial for either of you.

[salparadise]

Neither of you is likely personality disordered.

She probably does not have BPD just as you are probably not a codependent narcissist. Personality disorders are not like... yip, yap, yip, yap

 

I don't know why either of you would feel so invested in declaring her free of a diagnosable disorder. Any actual qualifications between you? You both should know that nobody can be diagnosed via a third-party description on an internet forum, and the same applies to un-diagnosing.

 

But if you want to play armchair shrink just for a day... without belaboring the detail, I'd have to say that OPs description of her easily meets the DSM criteria for borderline.

 

LD1990, I think you need to get a therapist to help you equilibrate after this tornado. You need to learn what normal looks like, how to enforce healthy boundaries, and how to spot'em a mile away so you'll have a chance of avoiding this unfortunate misery in the future. It will probably help some to learn the how and why of BPD, but more importantly you need to learn what it is about you that makes you like an opposite-pole rare earth magnet to it... and hopefully make a few corrections. You do realize that normal people with healthy boundaries would just turn and walk at the first sign of extreme dysfunction, right?

[elaine567]

But if you want to play armchair shrink just for a day... without belaboring the detail, I'd have to say that OPs description of her easily meets the DSM criteria for borderline.

 

Care to elaborate?

[salparadise]

Care to elaborate?

 

No, because I really don't want to turn the discussion into [yet another] is she or isn't she debate. Suffice it to say that OPs description includes words that seemingly indicate most, if not all, of the criteria... and as for degree, multiple suicide attempts are a pretty clear indicator of that.

 

Speaking more generally, I think the best we can do for people who may have been in relationship with cluster b partners is to point them toward good resources. Those of us who are more familiar with these disorders than we would choose to be are careful to qualify opinions and avoid declarative statements with respect to diagnoses (for several obvious reasons), and I believe the same should apply to un-diagnosing. What I can say without overstepping is that I can match enough specific elements of OPs description to criteria to say that we'd be doing him a disservice to discount the possibility.

[Orion39]

I feel so overwhelmed reading that I can't imagine what you are going through/went through. In some ways she sounds controlling. It's also good that you can see there are ways you were wrong in the relationship as well. In short I think it would be better if you both went your separate ways at this time. Maybe in the future you could reassess your relationship and see what happens, but move forward and see what else life has for you.

[LD1990]

LD1990, I think you need to get a therapist to help you equilibrate after this tornado. You need to learn what normal looks like, how to enforce healthy boundaries, and how to spot'em a mile away so you'll have a chance of avoiding this unfortunate misery in the future. It will probably help some to learn the how and why of BPD, but more importantly you need to learn what it is about you that makes you like an opposite-pole rare earth magnet to it... and hopefully make a few corrections. You do realize that normal people with healthy boundaries would just turn and walk at the first sign of extreme dysfunction, right?

 

I realize that now. This was my first love and my first serious relationship. I really thought I'd found "the one," and I let my emotions cloud my judgement over and over again.

 

 

 

Thank you everyone for your replies. It's hard to talk about all this with friends and family, as I don't want to exhaust them with every detail and thought I have about my ex. This community is amazing, reading the stories and advice has been very helpful to me.

 

The fact that my ex would hurt herself, sometimes even smashing her head into things, and make suicide attempts, both obviously suggest something isn't right with her, and honestly those memories still haunt me. I'd be so frustrated with her for letting it come to that and I'd feel powerless to stop her. I'm twice her size, but trying to get a knife out of someone's hands while they're fighting back isn't easy. She'd talk like a crazy person while this was happening and sometimes tell me I drove her crazy. I wondered if I was really this monster of a boyfriend that drove my loving girlfriend insane. Sometimes I still wonder that. I still feel guilty that our relationship got to that point.

 

I saw her today. Her mom was supposed to come by to get the last two large items she and my ex have here, and since she told me she would come with movers and a truck I agreed to it. Instead my ex comes to get the stuff. Well, she says that, but then says that she actually can't get a truck until tomorrow. It's not hard to rent a truck, she just wanted to wait until someone could loan her a truck to avoid paying a rental fee, but I don't think it's fair for her to use my place as storage to make things as convenient as possible for herself. I put my foot down and told her no, today's the day, I've given plenty of additional time and I need her stuff out. It was all pretty stressful. She told me how much of an ***hole I've been by making her move her stuff out, which I think is ridiculous. She ended up storing her sewing machine at the neighbor's place, when I asked if she wanted to move what we could right now she said no because I'm being unbearable, at that point I got angry and told her to get over it, and that everything needs to go out today.

 

Anyways, she came back with a van, we moved this bedroom table into the van, and we both threw away the stuff she had in our storage space. While we were moving the table she called me "babe" out of habit, felt like getting stabbed in the heart. She kept asking why I hate her so I told her I don't hate her, I've got no ill will towards her, I hope she has a blast on her trip but I need to move on with my life. She started crying and telling me the same things about how much she loves me and wanted it to work but I never gave her space and didn't try hard enough. I called her out on lying to me about being locked into study abroad classes in one country when now she's going to another, and she told me she was locked into fall classes, not summer. I know for a fact that's not true, and it was actually good that we had that exchange. It reinforced for me that she's a liar. I can't trust a word she says and I'll never be able to, so I ended the conversation there.

 

She was sitting in the van as I walked back up the stairs. She texted me to ask if I wanted to say bye. I texted back "We already did."

 

So that's that, it's finally completely over, I even had the locks changed today. I'd be lying if I said this didn't hurt, or that I wasn't hoping she'd say "let's try again" while we talked. I'm really gonna work on controlling my emotions more, I sometimes let my emotions control me when I'm really stressed, and I have to get better at that. I'm gonna look into therapy options that hopefully work with my insurance. I'm also gonna look for books to read as I enjoy reading to solve problems, I've seen "Stop Walking on Eggshells" recommended here, I'll also probably look into books about codependency. Most importantly, I'm gonna exercise, work hard, and socialize. In fact, I think I'll hit a happy hour right now. Cheers, everyone.

[LD1990]

Figured I'd post an update, I've been successful with NC although my ex's mother annoyed me and my ex has apparently claimed I was abusive...ugh.

 

So Friday March 11, my last update, my ex got the things I thought her and her mother wanted. Her mother told me she was gonna get movers but blew that off and had my ex do everything. The next day my ex's mother asks me to leave a fountain they forgot outside and put some things my ex forgot in it. I put anything I thought my ex may want in this 150+ lb. stone fountain and lugged the thing downstairs to set it out front. Sunday, another text from my ex's mother. Now it's about a lamp that she forgot which she wants to pick up, she also wants me to give her "anything that's hers" when she comes.

 

At this point I put my foot down and told her no more pickups, she didn't hire movers to get her things like she said she would, I'm not their storage unit, and I asked her not to contact me again about it. She proceeds to berate me over text, telling me she thought I was smarter, she has receipts and is going to sue me for her property and for trying to kill her daughter, and that she knew I wanted to keep her stuff. She then tells me not to contact her anymore, I was more than happy to oblige.

 

I figured my ex would badmouth me, but wow, she actually omitted all the times she hurt herself, attempted suicide, and attacked me, and replaced it with lies about me being some abusive monster. That's cold. Obviously I'm not thrilled that she's telling people this, but whatever, I know the truth and that's all that matters.

 

I find it so annoying that my ex's mother expects me to just let her come over as she pleases to get things after she blew me off, and that she wants me to do all the work of getting her things ready for her like I'm her damn gopher. I do think it's funny how supposedly I tried to "kill her daughter," yet this whole time she's calling me sweetie and saying how much she loves me over text message. She only seems to care about this supposed abuse when I didn't let her come get things anymore.

 

Fortunately, I haven't heard from either of them since then and I think this chapter of my life is over. I go through ups and downs emotionally. I've been focusing on work, exercising, and going out with friends, but I'm still lonely without her. I feel a lot of anger towards her, but I miss the good times we had. It's all kind of shocking for me - the whole relationship feels like it went by so fast, I still can't believe it ended, but even more I can't believe I ignored so many obvious red flags. Looking back, I was a fool for how I tried to handle those red flags, particularly all the times she broke my trust. I should have taken those as clear indications to leave. Instead, each time she broke my trust I just tightened the reins. I tried to control and monitor her even more, thinking I could prevent myself from getting hurt again. But I've learned a lot, and I think my Dad was right. I am lucky.

 

Questions, comments, anything, feel free to post, interacting on these boards has been very helpful for me.

[266696687]

Figured I'd post an update, I've been successful with NC although my ex's mother annoyed me and my ex has apparently claimed I was abusive...ugh.

 

So Friday March 11, my last update, my ex got the things I thought her and her mother wanted. Her mother told me she was gonna get movers but blew that off and had my ex do everything. The next day my ex's mother asks me to leave a fountain they forgot outside and put some things my ex forgot in it. I put anything I thought my ex may want in this 150+ lb. stone fountain and lugged the thing downstairs to set it out front. Sunday, another text from my ex's mother. Now it's about a lamp that she forgot which she wants to pick up, she also wants me to give her "anything that's hers" when she comes.

 

At this point I put my foot down and told her no more pickups, she didn't hire movers to get her things like she said she would, I'm not their storage unit, and I asked her not to contact me again about it. She proceeds to berate me over text, telling me she thought I was smarter, she has receipts and is going to sue me for her property and for trying to kill her daughter, and that she knew I wanted to keep her stuff. She then tells me not to contact her anymore, I was more than happy to oblige.

 

I figured my ex would badmouth me, but wow, she actually omitted all the times she hurt herself, attempted suicide, and attacked me, and replaced it with lies about me being some abusive monster. That's cold. Obviously I'm not thrilled that she's telling people this, but whatever, I know the truth and that's all that matters.

 

I find it so annoying that my ex's mother expects me to just let her come over as she pleases to get things after she blew me off, and that she wants me to do all the work of getting her things ready for her like I'm her damn gopher. I do think it's funny how supposedly I tried to "kill her daughter," yet this whole time she's calling me sweetie and saying how much she loves me over text message. She only seems to care about this supposed abuse when I didn't let her come get things anymore.

 

Fortunately, I haven't heard from either of them since then and I think this chapter of my life is over. I go through ups and downs emotionally. I've been focusing on work, exercising, and going out with friends, but I'm still lonely without her. I feel a lot of anger towards her, but I miss the good times we had. It's all kind of shocking for me - the whole relationship feels like it went by so fast, I still can't believe it ended, but even more I can't believe I ignored so many obvious red flags. Looking back, I was a fool for how I tried to handle those red flags, particularly all the times she broke my trust. I should have taken those as clear indications to leave. Instead, each time she broke my trust I just tightened the reins. I tried to control and monitor her even more, thinking I could prevent myself from getting hurt again. But I've learned a lot, and I think my Dad was right. I am lucky.

 

Questions, comments, anything, feel free to post, interacting on these boards has been very helpful for me.

 

Firstly return ALL of your ex's property you have no right to keep it or hold on to it. it gives her ammunition against you. Send it back ASAP all of it every last item.

 

Secondly seek some therapy. This girl has done damage to you that at this point you aren't even aware of. Go and talk the relationship out with a therapist or counsellor.

 

Thirdly the more you've posted about this girl especially the bad mouthing about abuse after the breakup while she still sends you 'nice' texts suggest she might have some narcissistic tendencies - you need to not engage with her at all. Any response from you even a negative one is exactly what she will be seeking. You need to be complete and total NC - return her belongings by whatever means necessary without speaking or talking to her or her mother. Send them with a friend or get a hire van yourself and suck up the cost it'll be 'cheaper' in the long run. Get her out of your life with complete and total silence.

[ShootingStarlet]

I'm a girl with BPD and the relationship you described sounds similar to mine with my ex. He seems like you, sometimes he'd be so stubborn and cold and full of himself , other times he would cry and be so sweet and write me love letters telling me how much he loves me and say the most amazing things. I loved him so much but we couldn't live together- if we spent more than 3 nights together we would have a terrible fight about something, anything, not even a big thing. I would love him when he was being sweet and loving, but I was fearful that it wouldn't last, so any sign of him losing interest set me off and I was ready to leave first. I needed to be near him to feel secure, he was my whole world, but being too close to him for too long made me scared and I would react with anger. I'm in therapy now and I'm getting better There was no way to love me, he loved me in the way I liked but I enjoyed the drama and the turmoil too. I needed big dramatic fights and emotional responses from him to feel that he genuinely cared as much as I did and that he wasn't going to leave. I pushed him, tested him, would pretend I was over him and wanted to leave when I really just wanted him to rush over and hug me. I would lie sometimes too about small things like I also said I was thinking of going away for a year just to see if he'd try and make me stay with him. It was not a healthy relationship but the one thing it had was love ! Love of the crazy sort, but we both loved each other we just couldn't understand each other, because we couldn't understand ourselves! I had no idea sometimes why I wanted to push him away, why I wanted to kick him secretly in bed at night. I was jealous, he was jealous, but we both had real eyes for no one but each other, but we needed outside attention because we needed to feel like we could leave if we wanted and go to someone else. We were actually scared of each other, scared that the other one would just walk away and never look back one day and we'd be left feeling the extreme heartache that comes from losing our extreme highs. I think your ex girlfriend knows instinctively that those highs you experienced can't last forever, and if she is BPD, she's terrified of boredom and abandonment. She needs the rush to feel alive and to feel wanted and she's done the safest thing by her now and been the first one to leave. She does need therapy, but be assured, she loved you and in fact she probably loved you a bit too much and couldn't handle it. I loved my ex way too much and couldn't handle it so I did stupid things to provoke him just to try and make him feel as much as I did. There's that song by Eminem called 'Love the way you lie' that describes the sort of relationship BPDs often have, chaotic but intense. If I were you I would probably walk away but remain on good terms with her, it would be so good for her to go to therapy to learn self love and trust

[LD1990]

Firstly return ALL of your ex's property you have no right to keep it or hold on to it. it gives her ammunition against you. Send it back ASAP all of it every last item.

 

Secondly seek some therapy. This girl has done damage to you that at this point you aren't even aware of. Go and talk the relationship out with a therapist or counsellor.

 

Thirdly the more you've posted about this girl especially the bad mouthing about abuse after the breakup while she still sends you 'nice' texts suggest she might have some narcissistic tendencies - you need to not engage with her at all. Any response from you even a negative one is exactly what she will be seeking. You need to be complete and total NC - return her belongings by whatever means necessary without speaking or talking to her or her mother. Send them with a friend or get a hire van yourself and suck up the cost it'll be 'cheaper' in the long run. Get her out of your life with complete and total silence.

 

Actually, I do have a right to keep anything they left. It's abandoned property once they leave it at my apartment.

 

They haven't made anymore attempts to contact me, and I'm pretty damn sure the whole lawsuit thing was a bluff. Even if it's not, they'd lose in court. She moved out February 6. I repeatedly told her she needed to get all her things by the end of the month. When she and her mother didn't do that, I gave them extra time and again, they failed.

 

Not that I really care about a lamp and some knick knacks, but I spent over a month putting myself through more emotional stress just to try and make things go smoothly with them and avoid any bad feelings. In return, they took advantage and used my apartment as storage. Moving their stuff for them is all work and no reward, and for what? They had their chances, they blew it, I'm now the proud new owner of an average looking lamp.

 

I've been doing NC and if either of them find a way to get in touch with me the game plan is to ignore it. I just don't wanna waste anymore time doing favors for people who treated me like garbage. My ex definitely has some issues, I think she likes to play the victim. She tells people I abused her, tells me how horrible I am, yet told me when she got her stuff "I thought we were gonna be friends." If I'm so horrible, why on earth would you wanna be friends with me? It doesn't matter though, her issues are her own, she's not my problem anymore.

[LD1990]

I'm a girl with BPD and the relationship you described sounds similar to mine with my ex. He seems like you, sometimes he'd be so stubborn and cold and full of himself , other times he would cry and be so sweet and write me love letters telling me how much he loves me and say the most amazing things. I loved him so much but we couldn't live together- if we spent more than 3 nights together we would have a terrible fight about something, anything, not even a big thing. I would love him when he was being sweet and loving, but I was fearful that it wouldn't last, so any sign of him losing interest set me off and I was ready to leave first. I needed to be near him to feel secure, he was my whole world, but being too close to him for too long made me scared and I would react with anger. I'm in therapy now and I'm getting better There was no way to love me, he loved me in the way I liked but I enjoyed the drama and the turmoil too. I needed big dramatic fights and emotional responses from him to feel that he genuinely cared as much as I did and that he wasn't going to leave. I pushed him, tested him, would pretend I was over him and wanted to leave when I really just wanted him to rush over and hug me. I would lie sometimes too about small things like I also said I was thinking of going away for a year just to see if he'd try and make me stay with him. It was not a healthy relationship but the one thing it had was love ! Love of the crazy sort, but we both loved each other we just couldn't understand each other, because we couldn't understand ourselves! I had no idea sometimes why I wanted to push him away, why I wanted to kick him secretly in bed at night. I was jealous, he was jealous, but we both had real eyes for no one but each other, but we needed outside attention because we needed to feel like we could leave if we wanted and go to someone else. We were actually scared of each other, scared that the other one would just walk away and never look back one day and we'd be left feeling the extreme heartache that comes from losing our extreme highs. I think your ex girlfriend knows instinctively that those highs you experienced can't last forever, and if she is BPD, she's terrified of boredom and abandonment. She needs the rush to feel alive and to feel wanted and she's done the safest thing by her now and been the first one to leave. She does need therapy, but be assured, she loved you and in fact she probably loved you a bit too much and couldn't handle it. I loved my ex way too much and couldn't handle it so I did stupid things to provoke him just to try and make him feel as much as I did. There's that song by Eminem called 'Love the way you lie' that describes the sort of relationship BPDs often have, chaotic but intense. If I were you I would probably walk away but remain on good terms with her, it would be so good for her to go to therapy to learn self love and trust

 

Thank you so much ShootingStarlet, it's nice to get the perspective of someone on the other end of a similar situation. It does sound like your relationship was a lot like mine. And it's great to feel like she loved me, at least that was real. Good for you for getting help, that's a huge step to take. I would love for my ex to do the same and I wanted her to during our relationship. It just seems like she didn't think she needs it. Personally I feel like she is lying to herself, but there's really nothing I can do to help her.

[Downtown]

LD, thanks so much for returning to give us an update. I am happy to hear that you've gone NC and are staying away from your exGF. I agree with you and SalParadise that the behaviors you describe -- i.e., irrational jealousy, controlling behavior, frequent triggered temper tantrums, verbal abuse, lack of impulse control, suicide attempts and other self harming (ramming her head against the wall), and always being "The Victim" -- are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).

 

I think she has BPD.

BPD is not something a person "has" or "doesn't have." Rather, like body weight and height, BPD is something we all have to some degree. At issue, then, is whether you believe your exGF exhibits mild, moderate, strong, or severe BPD traits. After living with her for about 18 months, you should be capable of spotting all strong occurrences of BPD symptoms (i.e., warning signs). Indeed, you would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind to not be able to spot temper tantrums, irrational jealousy, head banging, and suicide attempts.

 

Importantly, your being able to spot strong BPD symptoms does NOT imply that you are trying to diagnose your exGF. Indeed, the psychiatric community itself is still unable to "diagnose" BPD -- not in the way that term is used in all other scientific fields. When a psychologist claims to have "diagnosed" someone as having BPD, he only means that he has determined that the behavioral symptoms are severe and persistent.

 

In every field of the medical sciences, however, "diagnosis" does NOT occur by simply telling you the severity or persistence of your symptoms. On the contrary, whenever you visit a medical doctor, he almost always will rely on YOU to provide that information. This is why the very first thing he will ask you is what symptoms you've been experiencing, how severe they are, and how long they have been occurring.

 

Hence, when a medical doctor gives you a diagnosis, he is not describing your symptoms. Rather, he is telling you what CAUSES the symptoms that you have described to him. If instead the doctor were to simply tell you that your stomach pain and fever are at a level 10 on a 10-point scale -- and then tell you to pay $200 on your way out -- you would be furious.

 

For several decades, psychologists tried to diagnose like the rest of the scientific community -- i.e., they tried to identify the underlying causes of behavioral symptoms. Sadly, the result was an unmitigated disaster. It was so bad that a client seeing three different psychologists likely would be given three different diagnoses. By the mid-1970s, the field of psychology had become such a joke to the scientific community that the American Psychiatric Association (APA) members decided to abandon their futile efforts to diagnose mental disorders.

 

Specifically, in 1980 the APA stopped trying to identify the causes of the behavioral symptoms. Instead, it adopted a new approach (DSM-III) in which it identifies only the symptoms themselves. The irony, of course, is that the APA decided to use the term "diagnosis" to describe this process of rating the severity of symptoms. Never mind that nobody has yet been able to prove, to a certainty, what it is that CAUSES personality disorders. Although there are some good theories and empirical evidence, it is yet unproven as to why BPD and other PDs occur. It is unknown, for example, why some abused children exhibit strong PD traits but most do not.

 

Unfortunately, this misuse of the term "diagnosis" has confused a large share of the lay public. Many laymen fear that, if they start speaking of behavioral symptoms in an educated manner, people will think they are trying to do an "armchair diagnosis." The unfortunate result is that many people remain fully reliant on street language (e.g., talking about a$$h**es and b!tc*es) instead of using the wonderful vocabulary of descriptive terms provided by the APA's DSM.

 

These fearful folks confuse "spotting symptoms" with "making a diagnosis" even though there is a world of difference between the two. They don't realize that the psychiatric community WANTS them to learn how to spot strong occurrences of these behavioral symptoms -- i.e., the warning signs associated with each disorder. This is why hundreds of mental health institutions describe these behavioral symptoms on their public websites.

[LD1990]

Thanks Downtown! I really appreciate the response and the clarification regarding BPD symptoms. That bit of APA history was fascinating too - I took some psychology courses in college and always enjoyed learning about it. I read quite a few of your posts about BPD and they helped me recognize those symptoms in my ex, and see how strong those symptoms were. I think in all the time we lived together we probably never went more than 4-5 days without a major fight, sometimes we'd have fights every day for a week or more, and it was typically due to her up and down emotional state. But when things were good, we were over the moon for each other. That's what still leaves me with regret that it didn't work, even though I doubt it ever could have.

[LD1990]

Well, my ex contacted me, which sure seems to happen when you least expect it.

 

I haven't been in touch with her since the last time I saw her. I did foolishly check a public social media page of her supposed "gay friend" a week and a half ago and saw, front and center, a picture of the two of them smiling. He captioned it mentioning how he's in love with her. Ugh. Tough to see, but it did at least give me confirmation of what I should have already known, she was lying about him being gay the whole time and flirting with him before we broke up. I was mad at myself for looking at the page, but at least I didn't actually make any contact.

 

So today I get a text from a number I don't know that says hi with a smiley face after, hope you're doing well, say hello to the cat for me, signed with my ex's name.

 

I haven't responded and don't plan to, although this is difficult, to say the least. On the one hand, it's annoying and a little ridiculous that she makes me seem like this abusive monster to everyone, both her and her mother have threatened to sue me at one point or another, and now she's sending me a little impersonal hello text like we're old pals. On the other, I still get that stupid feeling of hope that maybe she's coming around and I could get her back if I played my cards right.

 

Logically I know this is a breadcrumb, her attempt to see if she still has me by the balls, and if she wanted me back she'd say something more meaningful. I also know that without serious therapy, which she likely isn't getting, we'd be doomed even on the off chance we got back together. I know ignoring her sends a stronger message than anything I could say. It's my damn heart that misses her (the sex was pretty damn good too so I miss her on that level as well).

 

I just wanted to get my thoughts down and hear some other opinions. Even if it just confirms my own opinion that staying NC is the way to go, getting advice from people who are impartial and detached from the situation always helps.

[Downtown]

On the one hand, it's annoying and a little ridiculous that she makes me seem like this abusive monster to everyone, both her and her mother have threatened to sue me at one point or another, and now she's sending me a little impersonal hello text like we're old pals. On the other, I still get that stupid feeling of hope that maybe she's coming around and I could get her back if I played my cards right.

Sadly, LD, I know all too well how it is to experience those strong conflicting feelings toward a BPDer. Our "problem," of course, is that -- unlike the BPDers -- we are emotionally mature and thus are able to tolerate experiencing strong conflicted feelings.

 

After my exW had me thrown into jail -- and while she still had a R/O barring me from returning to within a hundred feet of my own home -- she repeatedly tried to meet with me at various points all over the city. And, while telling my five adult step children that I was a monster who had tried to brutalize her, she still would call me on the phone to encourage me to restart our friendship (which had lasted over 40 years for the most part). Like the book title says, it's usually I Hate You, Don't Leave Me with BPDers.

[BlueIris]

Sadly, LD, I know all too well how it is to experience those strong conflicting feelings toward a BPDer. Our "problem," of course, is that -- unlike the BPDers -- we are emotionally mature and thus are able to tolerate experiencing strong conflicted feelings.

 

After my exW had me thrown into jail -- and while she still had a R/O barring me from returning to within a hundred feet of my own home -- she repeatedly tried to meet with me at various points all over the city. And, while telling my five adult step children that I was a monster who had tried to brutalize her, she still would call me on the phone to encourage me to restart our friendship (which had lasted over 40 years for the most part). Like the book title says, it's usually I Hate You, Don't Leave Me with BPDers.

 

Wow, I had no idea you'd been in that relationship for 40 years, and she had 5 children so you guys weren't kids when you got married. Good thing you finally walked away.

[Downtown]

Wow, I had no idea you'd been in that relationship for 40 years, and she had 5 children so you guys weren't kids when you got married. Good thing you finally walked away.

Iris, it was more off than on during that period. We had started dating when she was only 17 and I was 19. She dumped me to marry another guy -- err, two guys actually. I did not hear from her for 24 years, at which time we started visiting monthly on the phone. Was 27 years before we met again and I became her third H. But, yes, it was a very good thing I finally walked away.

[LD1990]

That sounds like quite the saga, Downtown. I'm impressed that you've amassed so much knowledge about BPD, and that you were able to walk away from your ex-wife, which must have been extremely hard.

 

My feelings are very conflicted towards my ex. There are times I'm angry about how she treated me, but I just read the Amazon excerpt of "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me," and found myself feeling pity for her. That description of how people with the disorder see the world and themselves on a daily basis - that's my ex, and it must be terrible to live life that way.

 

I don't want to feel too much pity as it just makes me miss her. I guess I'm worried I'll never reach those relationship highs again. It was quite the wild ride. Of course, I could do without the fights until 2, 3, or 4 in the morning that I'm sure our neighbors heard.