Love her, but so so hurt...

[CnfsdTXDad1]

My wife and I have been married for over 5 years, but are now taking a break, courtesy of me moving out of the house and into a nearby apartment. I needed for her to realize that after all of the fighting, I was serious that I could not stay in a marriage/relationship like that.

 

Fast-forward to over a month now: she still has not said I love you, she still has not said I miss you, she has done next to nothing to try to get me back, except for talking to counselors. That's great, but does nothing for our marriage.

 

I feel like it's over, as she still gets angry through text (we don't talk on the phone), can't and won't talk with me, and I am just tired of being the nice guy that is getting treated like crap. This whole month I've been so nice to her ('you look beautiful' multiple times, 'I love you' multiple times, getting her cookies and a card, tons of sweet texts, etc.), with zero reciprocation. She also refuses to hug me and can barely look at me.

 

There has been no infidelity on my part whatsoever (I'm very old fashioned like that), but I just got so tired of the abuse (bashing me with her family, lying to me, etc.).

 

We both see the counselor one more time separately next week, and then we will start joint sessions.

 

I am so close to filing. . .should I?

[PegNosePete]

Why are you starting MC if you're so close to filing? Wouldn't it make sense to decide on one strategy (reconciliation or separation) and pursue it?

 

I guess the bottom line is, do you want to save the marriage or not? If so, don't file, and go to the MC sessions. If not, cancel the sessions and file.

 

Filing but still going to MC doesn't make much sense, to me.

[sandylee1]

Try counselling first and see how it goes.

 

Does she recognise that her behaviour is wrong? Because if she doesn't, she is not going to change so easily?

 

It may be that she's too stubborn to try and win you back and doesn't want to be the one who begs.

 

Also when you move out like this, it needs to be with a plan in mind. Like.. Are you going to start dating each other again and try to find the passion.

 

The marriage won't heal itself unless you both want to and take active steps.

[CnfsdTXDad1]

Why are you starting MC if you're so close to filing? Wouldn't it make sense to decide on one strategy (reconciliation or separation) and pursue it?

 

I guess the bottom line is, do you want to save the marriage or not? If so, don't file, and go to the MC sessions. If not, cancel the sessions and file.

 

Filing but still going to MC doesn't make much sense, to me.

 

She doesn't know that I'm thinking of filing. She gets physically sick over this, yet can't talk to me about it for over a month?

 

There are so many other factors here, one that I can't mention because it honestly creeps me out, but the main theme is: why would she want to stay married to someone she calls horrible names to her friends and family? She has caused my stepson not to speak to me because she got him involved in our marriage (she plays a great victim), she has forwarded what I thought were private texts between us with her family, and has told my 4 yr old that she hopes he turns out nothing like me. That alone sent me over the edge.

[PegNosePete]

why would she want to stay married to someone ...

No, that is not the main question here. You can't make her decision for her.

 

The main question is, if she is as bad as you say, why on earth would YOU want to stay married her?

[CnfsdTXDad1]

Try counselling first and see how it goes.

 

Does she recognise that her behaviour is wrong? Because if she doesn't, she is not going to change so easily?

 

It may be that she's too stubborn to try and win you back and doesn't want to be the one who begs.

 

Also when you move out like this, it needs to be with a plan in mind. Like.. Are you going to start dating each other again and try to find the passion.

 

The marriage won't heal itself unless you both want to and take active steps.

 

Powerful words. . .thank you very much. As you can imagine, I'm a bit confused and emotional right now.

 

I found out some things that really concern me. On top of it all, I live where her family is (mine is 2K miles away), and now I can't got to any family functions because of what she's said about me. My stepson (her son) won't even talk to me because of what she told him about me.

 

I could never fathom talking badly about my spouse, no matter how upset I've become. She doesn't feel that way, and in my opinion broke the wedding vows by doing so. She damn sure broke my trust. . .that, and she has zero respect.

 

When she gets angry and starts yelling? Watch out. She has gotten our little boy up from sleeping with her yelling, and even then she STILL won't stop.

 

She has everybody in her ear telling her she did nothing wrong. The one thing that did resonate was from the counselor telling her not to get her family or anybody involved (as I type this, she is with her family to whom she did the bashing).....that shocked me.

[sandylee1]

Is she mentally stable? Because saying that to your son would be reason enough for me to want out of the marriage.

 

She seems to have no recognition that her behaviour is out of line.

 

Why is she insulting you to her family? Again those kind of behaviours are not on.

[CnfsdTXDad1]

No, that is not the main question here. You can't make her decision for her.

 

The main question is, if she is as bad as you say, why on earth would YOU want to stay married her?

 

Exactly. . .and that's where I'm at. I don't know why I've tolerated this much abuse. I really do love her, but nothing has changed, and I don't see how it could. I just don't know if I want to pursue marriage counseling. I'm just so damn confused. . .

[CnfsdTXDad1]

Is she mentally stable? Because saying that to your son would be reason enough for me to want out of the marriage.

 

She seems to have no recognition that her behaviour is out of line.

 

Why is she insulting you to her family? Again those kind of behaviours are not on.

 

I think she thinks they are ok behaviors. Why would she not? She has a bunch of 'yes men' in her ear in the way of her family. They al tell her how wonderful she is and how she didn't do anything wrong.

 

The weirdest thing: the night I left, her 20 year old son slept in our bed with our 4 yr old. Yep, I think I'm gonna vomit right now. . .

[CnfsdTXDad1]

Is she mentally stable? Because saying that to your son would be reason enough for me to want out of the marriage.

 

She seems to have no recognition that her behaviour is out of line.

 

Why is she insulting you to her family? Again those kind of behaviours are not on.

 

I have told her for years that her behavior is unacceptable. . .doesn't register. Craziness.

 

She insults me to her family so that she can play the victim and circle the wagons. She loves having people hate certain people. It's crazy. It's also funny you mention that because she bashed her husband so badly to me that I believed her and thought he was an ass. But after being married to her for a while, I now feel sorry for him. . .truly sorry, as he stayed married to her for twice as long. I would love to buy him a beer some time and discuss what went wrong. Something tells me it's going to be eerily similar.

[elaine567]

Taking a break and moving out for a whole month, usually means it is over, so I am not sure why you expected your wife to start saying she loves you and misses you. I guess you introduced a huge chasm into your marriage by leaving.

As you have moved out, then all your "nice" words are pretty meaningless.

YOUR actions by moving out say you want to leave her and the marriage is gone. I guess she probably thinks there may be another woman in the mix too.

YOU were trying to force her to behave the way you wanted and now she thinks it is over. She is obviously not the pleading and begging type, some people just aren't, but it may be no indication of how she truly feels. Some people when faced with rejection and conflict will put up walls to protect themselves, she sounds like she may be one of those, so the further away you push her, the further away she goes.

 

People who want their marriage to work, stay and make it work.

 

"Breaks" are either a manipulative ploy to scare someone into behaving better, or are just trial separations by people too scared to make a clean break and so they want to test the waters before they finally decide.

Either way they do nothing to resolve conflict and mend marriages. Marriages are about bonding, if you leave, then you merely weaken the bonds.

 

If you file now, I guess there may be no coming back from that.

Is that what you really want?

[sandylee1]

I think you should file and aim to coparent together.

 

Simply put, I'd say to her that from all the things she says about you to family members, it's clear she doesn't love you anymore and it's best you both part company and she finds a man who can make her happy.

 

Stop tolerating her nonsense. You sound like a nice man and people like her take advantage of that.

 

Make sure you talk to your 4 year old about his body and appropriate touching in general. Like nobody should touch areas that underwear covers, unless his mum is bathing him.

 

There's stuff online about age appropriate guidance on this.

 

Your wife sounds like a nightmare. Get rid, but do it calmly, because she sounds like she could make things difficult.

 

I find a tactic with such people, is just expressing sadness at the demise of the relationship because of incompatibility.

[CnfsdTXDad1]

Taking a break and moving out for a whole month, usually means it is over, so I am not sure why you expected your wife to start saying she loves you and misses you. I guess you introduced a huge chasm into your marriage by leaving.

As you have moved out, then all your "nice" words are pretty meaningless.

YOUR actions by moving out say you want to leave her and the marriage is gone. I guess she probably thinks there may be another woman in the mix too.

YOU were trying to force her to behave the way you wanted and now she thinks it is over. She is obviously not the pleading and begging type, some people just aren't, but it may be no indication of how she truly feels. Some people when faced with rejection and conflict will put up walls to protect themselves, she sounds like she may be one of those, so the further away you push her, the further away she goes.

 

People who want their marriage to work, stay and make it work.

 

"Breaks" are either a manipulative ploy to scare someone into behaving better, or are just trial separations by people too scared to make a clean break and so they want to test the waters before they finally decide.

Either way they do nothing to resolve conflict and mend marriages. Marriages are about bonding, if you leave, then you merely weaken the bonds.

 

If you file now, I guess there may be no coming back from that.

Is that what you really want?

 

No offense meant, but did your boyfriend or husband move out on you? You seem kind of upset with me, without knowing the full back story.

 

I moved out because of several things:

 

1. her yelling, rolling her eyes, and constant sarcasm when we fight, whereas I have to calm her down and coach her through it, which leaves my needs unattended to

2. she has turned her whole family against me. I love her college-aged son (my stepson), but because of her turning him against me, he won't speak to me. It's killing me.

3. she still sleeps in the same bed as her college-aged son. I'm sorry, but that's creepy. I believe this is called emotional incest.

4. she forwarded and read my text messages between us to her family

5. she shared very personal details about me to her family. . .that almost broke me

6. she has been bashing me behind my back for years. I have never ONCE said a bad word about her, no matter how upset I am. Why? Because I took my marriage vows very seriously.

7. I wrote her long love letters and all they did was make her angry.

8. she bad-mouthed me to our 4 yr old boy

 

For years her anger scared me. I begged and pleaded with her to change, but she didn't, so I had to go. Before I moved out, she got mad and didn't talk to me for a week. That's just not normal.

 

I still love her like crazy, which I've told her, but I think she's done, so I need to move on. I fought for a month, with no return feelings. I fought for years in our marriage to make it work, but it didn't matter. For reference, I did just take her to Europe for 2 weeks, but look where we are now. . . .so sad. It was supposed to rekindle things, but it didn't really.

[CnfsdTXDad1]

I think you should file and aim to coparent together.

 

Simply put, I'd say to her that from all the things she says about you to family members, it's clear she doesn't love you anymore and it's best you both part company and she finds a man who can make her happy.

 

Stop tolerating her nonsense. You sound like a nice man and people like her take advantage of that.

 

Make sure you talk to your 4 year old about his body and appropriate touching in general. Like nobody should touch areas that underwear covers, unless his mum is bathing him.

 

There's stuff online about age appropriate guidance on this.

 

Your wife sounds like a nightmare. Get rid, but do it calmly, because she sounds like she could make things difficult.

 

I find a tactic with such people, is just expressing sadness at the demise of the relationship because of incompatibility.

 

Wow, thank you very much. This was what was in the fog that I couldn't and didn't want to see through. Great advice. . .thank you very much!

[CnfsdTXDad1]

Other points to chew on:

 

1. we never had any joint accounts

2. she never put me on her mortgage (I moved into her house when we got married)

3. we never even bought a piece of furniture together

 

We never were truly husband and wife, because to me that means moving forward financially. I tried and tried and tried for years, but she never wanted to.

[BluesPower]

Other points to chew on:

 

1. we never had any joint accounts

2. she never put me on her mortgage (I moved into her house when we got married)

3. we never even bought a piece of furniture together

 

We never were truly husband and wife, because to me that means moving forward financially. I tried and tried and tried for years, but she never wanted to.

 

I would rather quote everything you said... But that is just too much work.

 

Brother, you need therapy to figure out why you would ever, and I mean ever, stay with a woman like this. You need to figure out why you are so codependent and conflict avoidant. You need to figure out what being a healthy self-confident person is all about.

 

You need to figure out what love actually means. Because from what you have written, you do not understand any of these things.

 

This woman is bat S*** crazy and you stayed with her. Did you accidently get her pregnant or something?

 

Look, file for divorce and don't look back. And do not get in a relationship with another woman until you figure out some of the things that I mentioned above...

[CnfsdTXDad1]

I would rather quote everything you said... But that is just too much work.

 

Brother, you need therapy to figure out why you would ever, and I mean ever, stay with a woman like this. You need to figure out why you are so codependent and conflict avoidant. You need to figure out what being a healthy self-confident person is all about.

 

You need to figure out what love actually means. Because from what you have written, you do not understand any of these things.

 

This woman is bat S*** crazy and you stayed with her. Did you accidently get her pregnant or something?

 

Look, file for divorce and don't look back. And do not get in a relationship with another woman until you figure out some of the things that I mentioned above...

 

Thanks, man. Sadly, I'm a hopeless romantic that does indeed know what love is. Problem is that I married someone who would rather hate than love, and I stayed with it because I wanted my first (and foolishly hopeful) and only marriage to work. Couple that with bringing a child (my heart and soul. . .I love my little dude with every ounce of my being) into the fold, and things get exacerbated.

 

I'm just so lost. My family and friends are telling me to give counseling a try, but she's just toxic and continues to be an a**hole through texting even today.

 

What's making this worse and magnifying my anxiety tenfold today are 2 things:

1. she has been hanging out with her sister-in-law who was the chief influence in our marriage issues

2. she wants the three of us (son, me, and her) to 4th of July tonight

 

I really don't want to go, but she did ask and I don't want to say eff off, lol. . .even though she's been saying that to me for a lonnnnng time through her actions. My father said that I should go, although he doesn't hold out much hope for the marriage even with counseling.

[CnfsdTXDad1]

I would rather quote everything you said... But that is just too much work.

 

Brother, you need therapy to figure out why you would ever, and I mean ever, stay with a woman like this. You need to figure out why you are so codependent and conflict avoidant. You need to figure out what being a healthy self-confident person is all about.

 

You need to figure out what love actually means. Because from what you have written, you do not understand any of these things.

 

This woman is bat S*** crazy and you stayed with her. Did you accidently get her pregnant or something?

 

Look, file for divorce and don't look back. And do not get in a relationship with another woman until you figure out some of the things that I mentioned above...

 

 

Yeah, I am in counseling for this. . .has really screwed me up. I can't date for a while. . .wouldn't be fair to the other person. I don't think she thinks the same way, sadly. . .I found a receipt for her for Victoria's Secret the other day for new lingerie. . .that hurt like hell.

[BluesPower]

Yes I was going to say but you were vague about everything...

 

So she is having an affair then, no other reason to buy new lingerie with you out of the house.

 

Does she work? Who makes most of the money?

 

Listen, you can take care of your child and be divorced and happy. DO NOT STAY FOR THE KID. It is not worth it.

 

What other red flags are there from her? Is she on her phone all the time texting? Does she travel for work? Does she have girls nights out? Does she work late? What else is going on?

[Whodatdog]

There is way too much here you arent telling us, and I presume its what your roll is in this separation, the reason WHY your wife wanted you out of the house, the reason WHY you all fight like you do, the history up to you getting married. Would like to hear your wife's side of the story.

[CnfsdTXDad1]

Yes I was going to say but you were vague about everything...

 

So she is having an affair then, no other reason to buy new lingerie with you out of the house.

 

Does she work? Who makes most of the money?

 

Listen, you can take care of your child and be divorced and happy. DO NOT STAY FOR THE KID. It is not worth it.

 

What other red flags are there from her? Is she on her phone all the time texting? Does she travel for work? Does she have girls nights out? Does she work late? What else is going on?

 

That's my opinion, but I'm just not sure. She claims no, and was sick for 2 days over this. . .again, so she claims.

 

I make the money, and this was her 2nd marriage. Yes, she works, and does well.

 

Yep, she was on the phone CONSTANTLY. She would also take her phone into the bathroom and go around corners to use it. Yep. . .SUPER shady. Even when I was talking to her she'd be on the phone. She doesn't travel for work, she doesn't have girls nights out, and she hates working late. Lol. . .that was one of her biggest gripes with me is that I was always in the office (home office; don't get any ideas, people) until late at night. She felt like I was communicating with ex's, which is just. . .ewww. I'm married. That's disgusting.

[CnfsdTXDad1]

There is way too much here you arent telling us, and I presume its what your roll is in this separation, the reason WHY your wife wanted you out of the house, the reason WHY you all fight like you do, the history up to you getting married. Would like to hear your wife's side of the story.

 

Oh trust me, I have been far from a saint. But I never did anything CLOSE to what she did. I never texted in other rooms, I didn't go around corners or wait until I got in my car to call people. . .that was her. By the end, I didn't even know who I was married to anymore.

 

My wife didn't want me out of the house: it was my decision to leave. We hadn't talked for a week, and hadn't been able to get along for a while.

 

I think we fight like we do for a couple of reasons. One, the chemistry between us is extremely strong, so fireworks will follow. Two, we don't communicate the same at all. She prefers to yell, be sarcastic, be mean, and walk away during an argument, and I told her from the beginning that if she wants to watch me shut down, then do just those things. She does them every time. Does that sound like love to you? Every time she told me she didn't like something, I stopped doing it because I didn't want to hurt her feelings.

 

Her side of the story? I walk away, I used to nitpick in the past, if something hurt my feelings I brought it up when I should have just let it go, I worked way too much and way too late (home office), etc.

 

I just couldn't coach her anymore when my needs weren't getting met.

 

Again, it takes two to tango, and right after the move out, I just focused on all of the positive things about her and our marriage, and also what I did to contribute to the issues. That really made me miss her. Trust me: this isn't just her. But then I started thinking about all of the truly hurtful things she did. There is nothing like knowing that your wife has been badmouthing you for years (and I mean saying some truly vile things) to her family. I couldn't figure out for the longest time why it was so uncomfortable at her family gatherings for me (I live in her home area; my home is 2,000 miles away) until I caught her saying these things. I was shocked. I have had plenty of opportunity to badmouth her, but I haven't because a gentleman doesn't do that, because I love her, and because that goes against the marital vows. Then she got her son (my stepson) involved in the marriage, and it was kinda done at that point.

 

My wife would love to regale you with how I'm an a**hole and a host of other names, yet she is the one who got pissed off after I spent 2 hours writing her a 7 page handwritten love letter on special stationary and then she tore it up. A piece of my heart went with that letter. I had never even fathomed that reaction. Every woman that I've written a love letter to loves the thought, time, words, and emotions that go into a letter like that. Not my wife.

 

I'm speechless right now thinking about all of this. I feel like I've just come back from the front lines of a battle and am in shock. . .how could I have stayed in this for so long?!????

[CnfsdTXDad1]

how could I have stayed in this for so long?!????

 

Sorry, that wasn't nice. I stayed because I love her. I still do. Like crazy. But the day came when I realized that I don't want to be a doormat any longer. I don't want to get taken for granted.

 

What I want is that love again. Where we miss each other all of the time (not in an icky teenager kind of way). We love being with each other. We can't wait to spend time together.

 

This isn't that anymore for her. I have to face that and let it go.

 

Thank you all very much for your input. I by no means am closing this thread or opting out. I'm just saying thank you, and thank you to those who are playing devil's advocate, as well. It always takes two in communication.

[Downtown]

TexasDad, the behaviors you describe are warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Specifically, the irrational anger, verbal abuse, controlling actions, triggered temper tantrums, need for drama, lack of impulse control, and always being "The Victim" -- are classic warning signs for BPD. Importantly, I'm not suggesting your W has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit strong traits of it.

 

She plays a great victim.

If she is a "BPDer" -- i.e., exhibits strong and persistent BPD symptoms -- that is exactly what you should expect. In the same way that a narcissist always thinks of himself as "The Special One," a BPDer nearly always thinks of herself as "The Victim." A BPDer has such a weak and fragile sense of self identity that she keeps a death grip on that false self image of being The Victim. She therefore will seek frequent "validation" from you that it is true.

 

Toward that end, a BPDer will remain married to you only as you play one of two roles. During the courtship period, you played the role of "The Rescuer," i.e., the guy who rode in on a white horse to rescue her from unhappiness. The obvious implication of being The Rescuer is that she must be a "victim" in need of rescue.

 

After her infatuation started to evaporate about six months later, however, your days in The Rescuer role would become increasingly scarce. Instead, she would increasingly start perceiving of you in your second role: The Perpetrator, i.e., the cause of her every misfortune. Clearly, as long as you are willing to continue being blamed for everything, your W likely will be willing to stay married to you. If she is a BPDer, you are feeding her great need for validation as The Victim.

 

The main theme is: why would she want to stay married to someone she calls horrible names to her friends and family?

As I noted above, a BPDer has such an enormous need to be validated as The Victim that she likely will choose to remain married to you as long as you continue to pretend that you're The Perpetrator. As long as you're willing to play that Perpetrator role, a BPDer is unlikely to leave you anytime soon. You are meeting her need for validation. This is why the #2 best-selling BPD book is titled, I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!

I have to calm her down and coach her through it.

No, YOU DON'T. The "calming" and "coaching" is what you do with your four year old son. The reason you have been doing this with your W -- if she is a BPDer -- is that her emotional development is frozen at the level of a 4 year old. This means she never learned the more mature ego defenses, e.g., how to self sooth, how to control anger and other emotions, and how to distract your own mind to avoid getting stuck in obsessive loops of thinking.

 

Instead, she is fully reliant on the ego defenses we all use when we are 3 and 4 years old: e.g., lying, projection, temper tantrums, black-white thinking, magical thinking, and escaping into daydreams. This is why, if you want to stay married to her, you must continue walking on eggshells to avoid triggering her rage. And this is why the #1 best-selling BPD book is titled, Stop Walking on Eggshells.

 

For years her anger scared me.

If she exhibits strong and persistent BPD traits, you have good reason to be scared. A BPDer carries enormous anger inside from early childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to do or say some minor thing that triggers a release of anger that is already there. This is why a BPDer can burst into a rage in only ten seconds. Moreover, BPDers have very weak control over their emotions. Indeed, the key defining characteristic of BPD is the inability to regulate one's own emotions.

 

We never even bought a piece of furniture together.

Likewise, I was never able to shop for furniture with my BPDer exW. This was especially apparent when we drove a long distance out of state to the furniture capital of the country. We went there to purchase an expensive chair/ottoman and dining room chairs. Although we shopped for 3 days in a dozen large furniture showrooms, we drove back home without a chair. Every time I had agreed with her choice, it was the kiss of death for that chair.

 

Being a BPDer, my exW had a powerful feeling that I was somehow controlling her decisions. Hence, the only way she could feel like she was making the decision was to pick a chair she knew I would absolutely hate. Because BPDers feel controlled and suffocated by their mates, they will even feel controlled when you give them a surprise present (because YOU were the one to pick it out or when to buy it).

 

She loves having people hate certain people. It's crazy.

No, not really "crazy." A person who is crazy (or psychotic) has a distorted view of physical reality, e.g., believing that the TV news anchor is speaking to her personally. In contrast, a BPDer typically sees physical reality just fine. What is distorted is her perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations.

 

The human condition -- for all of us -- is that we experience that distortion of other peoples' intentions whenever we experience very intense feelings (e.g., love or hate). This is why we all try to keep our mouths shut when very angry and try to wait two years before buying the ring when very infatuated. Well, BPDers are like that too. Yet, because they cannot control their emotions, they experience intense feelings far more frequently than the rest of us.

 

She bashed her husband so badly to me that I believed her and thought he was an ass.

Due to her emotional immaturity, a BPDer cannot tolerate being consciously aware of strong conflicting feelings toward anyone. Hence, like a young child, a BPDer solves this problem by "splitting off" the conflicting feeling (e.g., love or hate), putting it far out of reach of her conscious mind.

 

The result is that a BPDer typically will categorize everyone close to her as white ("with me" or "all good") or black ("against me" or "all bad"). And she will recategorize someone, in just ten seconds, based solely on a minor comment or action. This immature way of perceiving other people at polar extremes is called "black-white thinking." It is a basic ego defense we all rely on heavily throughout childhood.

 

I married someone who would rather hate than love.

Perhaps so. Yet, if she is a BPDer, that is highly unlikely. As I noted above, it is common for a BPDer to quickly flip between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (hating you). If that seems strange, remember that you likely see this childish behavior several times a day in your young son. He will adore Daddy while you're bringing out the toys but instantly flip to hating Daddy when you take one toy away.

 

I still love her like crazy.

If she is a BPDer, she likely is very easy to fall in love with. Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct. BPDers typically exhibit a warmth, intensity, and purity of expressions that otherwise is seen only in young children.

 

She damn sure broke my trust.

If she is a BPDer, you likely realized several years ago that you cannot trust her. Until a BPDer learns how to trust herself, she is incapable of trusting anyone else for an extended period. As long as she cannot trust YOU, you cannot trust HER because she can turn on you at any moment -- as you likely had learned when you were only two years into your marriage.

 

I think she thinks they are ok behaviors. Why would she not? She has a bunch of 'yes men' in her ear in the way of her family.

Those "yes men" are not helping the situation. Yet, if she is a BPDer, your W would have had the same blind view of her own behaviors -- with or without the encouragement from her family members. When a person exhibits strong and persistent BPD behaviors, they have a thought distortion that originates in early childhood.

 

Because they've been thinking and behaving that way since childhood, their behaviors and thinking are so harmonious with the needs of their ego that they seem perfectly natural to the BPDer. It therefore is rare for a high functioning BPDer to be sufficiently self aware to know that it is her distorted thinking and her dysfunctional behavior that is destroying the marriage.

 

I am in counseling for this. . .has really screwed me up.

If you really have been living with a BPDer for over five years, "screwed up" is exactly how you should be feeling. Of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual (DSM-5), BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. This is largely why therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going insane -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

 

Nothing will drive you crazier sooner than being repeatedly abused by a partner whom you know, to a certainty, must really love you. The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your partner to that wonderful human being you saw at the very beginning.

 

My family and friends are telling me to give counseling a try.

Good advice. I agree with them and BluesPower that professional guidance likely would be helpful. I suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your two sons are dealing with.

 

I caution that BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a spectrum disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper third of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, and temper tantrums.

 

Of course, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your W's issues. Although strong BPD symptoms are easy to spot, only a professional can determine whether they are so severe as to constitute full-blown BPD. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- e.g., avoid returning to this toxic marriage or, if you do decide to divorce her, avoid running right into the arms of another woman just like her.

 

I therefore suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread -- and read the description of what it's like to live with a BPDer wife for 23 years in Salparadise's post. If those descriptions ring many bells and raise questions, I would be glad to join BluesPower and the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, TexasDad.

[BluesPower]

OK, so you need to file for divorce...

 

Downtown is probably right that she is high on the BPD scale which really means to me that she has some real emotional issues.

 

But for sure she is having an affair, there really is not a doubt about is at this point. And it really doesn't matter, but that is one reason she is going off on you so much because she knows she is a horrible woman for doing what she is doing.

 

The guilt is eating her up and the stress of the affair.

 

So you need to bail ASAP.

 

BTW, she is going to lie and lie about not being in an affair unless you have conclusive proof. But it is a done deal that she is screwing around.

 

So file for divorce and be glad that you only had one child and wasted 5 years with her.