Karma/Kamma = VOLITIONAL action...

[TaraMaiden2]

This thread has been started as an off-shoot from a different thread, because the discussion was seriously in danger of veering badly off-topic.

 

....

I'm afraid to question further because I may end up sounding stupid.

In which case, if questions were never asked, we would have a whole world of 'stupids'.

 

Put that fear right out of your mind. No question is ever stupid.

 

"The only 'stupid' question is the one you don't ask."

 

You should hear some of the questions I used to ask, and we still get asked by noobs on the Buddhist forum I frequent! Many ARE repetitive, and many have been asked a thousand times before - but not by that person. They don't know, they couldn't possibly know, and they'd like an answer.

Rightly so.

And they deserve an answer.

 

The concept should be simple enough and you've explained it so thoroughly that perhaps I shouldn't be baffled at all. I guess the confusion for me comes at the deliberate action part.....because I think it's very easy to muddle what a 'deliberate' action is.

 

This is the specific comment which has prompted the opening of this thread:

 

.....I must say that I feel in some cases, the person knows that their actions will cause their significant other a lot of pain and yet they do it? That's where I would impute intention because they should have known that their actions would hurt someone else.

 

It is often said that 'Intention is all'.

 

Primarily, a Cheater's intention is self-gratification.

They cheat, because it's a choice. They cheat, because they wanted to.

They cheat out of a specific Desire.

This desire is rooted in wanting to have what they want.

And what most people want, is to be happy.

 

The majority of people expect that having and getting what they want, will make them happier.

And more often than not, that happiness is based on having something material, some object, or resolution, that, if they have that, then they will be happier.

 

Of course, subsequently fulfilling this desire makes them very happy.

 

Initially.

 

After a while, that brand new car gets a rust-spot, or a slight scrape, and it's not so attractive, any more, it's a gas-guzzler, and the newer model is faster, more stream-lined and much, much cooler....

 

Or buying the $5,000 dress is all very well, but when can they wear it again? And will it still fit? And is that colour even fashionable any more?!

 

Or getting THAT particular house is the answer to all our dreams! But the shutters need re-painting, and the window upstairs needs replacing, and that wall has developed a small crack, and the patio slabs have shifted....

 

Everything changes. And everything changing, changes everything.

 

The problem with taking the decision to implement a specific Action, and gratify our wishes, hopes, desires - is that all we see, is the narrow view of the fact that it's what we want, and what we want would make us happy if we had it.

 

we rarely - if ever - stop, to look at the broader, bigger more accurate picture.

When we want the car - we just want the car, and don't pause to think of the eventual, inevitable consequences (as above).

 

We don't consider the long-term consequences of spending all that money on a piece of designer cloth that will hang in our wardrobe, useless for 360 days of the year...

 

We don't consider that buying an historic, vintage beautiful landmark home, is going to mean a whole lot of money being thrown at upkeep, maintenance and general remedial work which will bore a big hole in our pockets....

 

Similarly, a cheater very, very rarely stops to think of the long-term consequences of their actions, the pain, hurt and distress it will cause their partner, because all they see is the instant gratification, the 'what's in it for them', and what is in it for them is the momentary' fleeting pleasure of getting what they want, when they want it.

 

Initially, half the 'fun' of cheating is spiced with secrecy. It's covert, daring, thrilling.... Forbidden. That's what adds the frisson. But not by indicating the negative consequences. By just making everything so much more exciting at the time.

Cheaters don't stop to think that a life with their AP will actually become just as mundane, just as hum-drum, ordinary and run-of-the-mill, as the life they had with the partner they cheated on.

This is why an awful lot of cheaters - cheat again.

Boredom. The desire for something more. Better. Up-to-date. Shinier, glossier, faster, newer.....

 

Desire' is the key word here.

 

We covet. We want. We Desire. We cling to and grasp at things in the belief that they are the source of our happiness.

It's not the 'things' which cause us ultimate distress.

 

It's our DESIRE for them.

And it is this Desire - that leads to Suffering.

 

NOW:

I should at this juncture, point out that the word 'suffering' (relating SPECIFICALLY to Buddhism, and in this context) is a mis-translation of a Pali word, 'Dukkha'.

 

The word 'Dukkha' is actually derived from another root-word, meaning 'wonky' or distorted axle. The axle of a cart that has a wheel at each end.

 

So while the term 'suffering' has been used exclusively, and is still used extensively, to translate the term 'dukkha' it's no longer widely accepted as accurate.

Or to put it another way, the word 'suffering' doesn't accurately convey what Dukkha really means.

 

Dukkha is the bumpy ride. The ups and downs of life, the unsatisfactory journey we're all taking. Depending on our terrain (experience, incident) we either have a mildly undulating progress, or a decidedly uncomfortable and nauseous one.

 

So when the terrain is smooth, even, level and monotonous, we'd like a bit more of a variety of movement, something a bit different, something which will grab our attention....

 

And when the terrain is bumpy, uneven, hilly and totally variable, we feel uncomfortable, ill-at-ease and frustrated.

 

"Suffering" is wanting things to be the way they are not.

 

If things are absolutely fabulous, we want them to stay that way. (Which we know, doesn't happen).

 

If things are dreadful, we want that schyte to go away and never come back again (which of course is impossible because as everyone knows, schyte happens).

 

So Cheaters cheat to make themselves happy.

But of course, it doesn't last, and they omit to consider the consequences.

 

Hurting someone else is not the intention.

But it IS a consequence.

 

Everything we think, say or do, has an INTENDED consequence.

We make a decision, and act on it with deliberate intention.

But without aforethought, these actions also have UN-Intended consequences, consequences we never even imagined.

Consequences we did not pause to stop, think about, consider.

 

You must have heard the phrase "I don't think you've thought this through..."

 

Well, that precisely describes a cheater's actions.

I don't think you thought this through.

 

This is why it is SO important to really, really look at the broader picture.

Because while we may initially believe that an adventure will be great fun, we really should consider the different variables, and decide, weighing everything up, whether it really would be such a good idea in the first place.

 

Does that answer your question...?

[pillowpuffs]

First of all, thank you so much for creating this thread and for being so in-depth with your explanation. I also appreciate that this is a non-judgment zone (in my university course (and we're a small batch of 200), we consistently get judged for asking stupid questions and I hope that explains my apprehension!).

 

Anyway, on to the subject matter. I have 2 questions here after reading everything that you've said.

 

Firstly, I understand that hurting someone else is not intentional in the whole cheating process. I didn't understand that prior to this conversation that we've struck up, because I thought my ex would have probably contemplated in the time that he was basically having another girlfriend that I would be hurt in this whole process and that he would lose contact with me forever. I mean, it was probably a month of cheating - surely at some point he would have realised that he was hurting me right? It may not have started out as the intentional action but I should think that overtime, the line between the original intention and the consequential hurt that he's caused gets blurred.

 

If someone commits murder, intention would need to proved yes? However, in some courts of law, intention can also be inferred in cases where someone should have known that their grievous hurt would cause murder.

 

Likewise, in cases where someone cheats, after some point in time they should know that action is very directly causing someone to hurt and yet, they continue it. That is when I believe, although it may not be a malicious intent but nonetheless, it can be an intent to hurt. Hence sometimes I believe that karma can persist in such a situation... Does this make sense?

 

Furthermore, and this is question 2, from the earlier thread, you mentioned that in karma, everything you say/do/think comes back to you. Basically, what goes around comes back around (I hope I'm not oversimplifying it here). I also have a similar understanding of karma (although in my religion, karma has several other meanings). Hence, I would think that this thing that you did, this action that was wrong (regarldess of intention), it will come back to you? And my understanding of coming back to you means it comes back to haunt you, bite you in your butt or whatever. Is that a correct understanding? What exactly does it mean to 'come back to you'?

 

Again, thanks for taking the time to hear me out and answer my questions! Since my ex has cheated and my whole family knows; they're all quite religious and I guess to comfort me they've all told me; God sees everything and there is karma. In my religion, whatever bad action (regardless of intention) will come back to hurt you and so you shouldn't be doing bad... that's why I'm sort of belabouring this point because it's an understanding that I've grown up with and to be told otherwise (which is not wrong and I'm glad to understand karma in a different way from what I've been taught), makes me very curious I guess.

 

At the end of the day, when you've been cheated on and so badly wounded by someone you never thought would hurt you in that way, I guess what most of us want is to know there could possibly be some form of retribution out there. Whether or not it actually materialises but to make ourselves feel better for the moment, we (and other people) tell ourselves that karma/justice/retribution exists. Thats where the reliance on karma comes (without really realising it's about intention) Because you've been through the pain through no fault of your own and the other person hasn't.. not that we know of anyway.

 

Hope this makes sense!

Edited July 29, 2015 by pillowpuffs

[TaraMaiden2]

First of all, thank you so much for creating this thread and for being so in-depth with your explanation. I also appreciate that this is a non-judgment zone (in my university course (and we're a small batch of 200), we consistently get judged for asking stupid questions and I hope that explains my apprehension!).

Then those who judge should know better.... Especially if they're in a position of authority. What, they already knew everything, instantly....?

 

Anyway, on to the subject matter. I have 2 questions here after reading everything that you've said.

 

Firstly, I understand that hurting someone else is not intentional in the whole cheating process. I didn't understand that prior to this conversation that we've struck up, because I thought my ex would have probably contemplated in the time that he was basically having another girlfriend that I would be hurt in this whole process and that he would lose contact with me forever. I mean, it was probably a month of cheating - surely at some point he would have realised that he was hurting me right? It may not have started out as the intentional action but I should think that overtime, the line between the original intention and the consequential hurt that he's caused gets blurred.

You're quite right.

But by that time (to simplify things) he's either got in too deep to reverse the process, or he's just too damn selfish and caught up in what HE wants to do, rather than show any remorse or regret for what he began. Remember, he began this as a means of instant gratification.

That was ALREADY a selfish move. He wanted it, he took it. Later remorse isn't now going to undo, the done, so to hell with the consequences.

 

If someone commits murder, intention would need to proved yes? However, in some courts of law, intention can also be inferred in cases where someone should have known that their grievous hurt would cause murder.

 

no..."could" cause murder. Someone who intended to cause bodily harm, but didn't stop to think of a fatal outcome, would be charged with manslaughter.

People oftern think that's a more trivial and less serious charge, but they need to think again. Because the penalties for manslaughter can be a lot more severe than for murder, for precisely the reason you cite. They didn't think it through.

Murder is murder is murder. You MEANT to do it, and there's a statutory penalty for that.

Manslaughter - "Jeesh, what the hell were you thinking - ?! Whaddya mean, you didn't mean to kill him? You didn't stop to think that running him over could have caused him to hit his head/have a subsequent coronary and die of his heart attack?! You Azzhole! Take that! No - on second thoughts - take THAT!!"

 

Likewise, in cases where someone cheats, after some point in time they should know that action is very directly causing someone to hurt and yet, they continue it. That is when I believe, although it may not be a malicious intent but nonetheless, it can be an intent to hurt. Hence sometimes I believe that karma can persist in such a situation... Does this make sense?

Kamma never stops existing, because we never stop acting.

Let me try to illustrate.

 

You walk through a door. Someone behind you follows you, but you don't see them. The door (Unintentionally) shuts in their face and they get a bloody nose.

You tun, apologise profusely, help them with their bloody nose, and make amends. They forgive you say it was nothing, an accident, and it's ok.

They still have the bloody nose though....And maybe a black eye tomorrow.

 

You walk through a door. Someone behind you follows you, and you know thye're there, but the door (Intentionally) still shuts in their face, and they get a bloody nose. You turn, tell them they shouldn't have been so close behind you, and frankly it's not your job to watch their step. They remonstrate, you get into a huge argument, and leave them in tears, nursing a bloody nose, and what looks suspiciously like the beginning of a black eye.

 

You saw your (non) deliberate action and you knew it hurt, so you made immediate amends and tried to rectify the situation.

The Vipaka is not severe, and commensurate with your un-volitional action. It's harm, but no harm done in the long run.

 

you saw your (deliberate) action, and knew it hurt, but you didn't make amends - quite the opposite, without rectification, but with more insult to injury. The Vipaka will be more severe. It will match your volitional action. It's harm, and harm that will return - how? When? That's the uncertainty. But it's already begun, in your head, with your selfish attitude. You have planted the seeds of unhappiness, by being selfish....

 

Furthermore, and this is question 2, from the earlier thread, you mentioned that in karma, everything you say/do/think comes back to you. Basically, what goes around comes back around (I hope I'm not oversimplifying it here). I also have a similar understanding of karma (although in my religion, karma has several other meanings). Hence, I would think that this thing that you did, this action that was wrong (regarldess of intention), it will come back to you? And my understanding of coming back to you means it comes back to haunt you, bite you in your butt or whatever. Is that a correct understanding? What exactly does it mean to 'come back to you'?

Karma is fundamentally a mystery nobody can completely work out.

I mean, to take an extreme example:

Hitler did a whole lot of bad stuff. He died by committing suicide.

Germany is now an affluent country; a world financial power.

How is that Kamma/Vipaka?!

 

Well, while it would appear that Germany has actually done quite well, in actual fact, the Germans are still carrying the weight and responsibility, and the stigma of what they did. Nobody in Austria has the surname 'Hitler'. The Nazi salute is banned and such attitudes are wholeheartedly deplored. Even 100 years after WW1, Germany still has a lot of resentful people out there who use it as a shining example of how NOT to behave.

 

That may not be the best example I can give, but it's the best I can do. Because the why and how of Kamma/Vipaka is not completely fathomable. It's linking between cause and effect, action and outcome, is not always apparent, clear-cut, direct or apparently just, to those who feel retribution is warranted.

 

Kamma isn't law. Not in a legal sense.... It' A law, but not one we can entirely follow....I'd like to say it can be made to work for you, but Kamma/Vipaka doesn't always follow what we would most like it to follow...

 

 

Again, thanks for taking the time to hear me out and answer my questions! Since my ex has cheated and my whole family knows; they're all quite religious and I guess to comfort me they've all told me; God sees everything and there is karma. In my religion, whatever bad action (regardless of intention) will come back to hurt you and so you shouldn't be doing bad... that's why I'm sort of belabouring this point because it's an understanding that I've grown up with and to be told otherwise (which is not wrong and I'm glad to understand karma in a different way from what I've been taught), makes me very curious I guess.

Let me tell you something I discovered for myself:

Just as your ex- enacted in the way he did - you are acting in the way you are.

 

Let us just say, for argument's sake, that you are angry, resentful, tearful, distressed, depressed, distracted and saddened by what he has done.

This is a consequence of his actions. Not one he necessarily deliberately worked to produce, but a consequence nevertheless.

 

But look:

They are YOUR actions. And as such, they give validation to HIS actions.

 

You can decide whether to continue carrying all that negativity, bearing the consequence that you will remain like that, because you harbour and nurture it, or understand that he is a poor, misguided suffering individual who thought he was doing something to make himself happy, but shat where he sat....

 

Suffering individuals (remember what I said about the word 'suffering') are blinded by their own selfish pursuits of their transitory desires.

While he absolutely merits condemnation (as would the murderer) he also needs Compassion, because of his blind pursuit of the unattainable.

I'm not suggesting you should like him, or what he has done.

I'm suggesting you release the negative thoughts and desire for justice, because such thoughts hold YOU back and generate a Kamma that may be detrimental to you.

 

It all begins in your head, with what you tell yourself.

So a thought is merely a thought; and a thought can be changed.

 

In italian, we have a phrase:

'Povero disgraziato'

 

Povero' means 'poor'.

'Disgraziato' means miserable wretch.

 

You should look upon him as a blind member of that fraternity....

 

Whike he does what he does, he does what he does, hoping it will work.

 

It's never about what 'they' do.

It's about how you respond. And how well you perceive suffering, and ameliorate your own thought-process, so as to not somehow get sucked in to an aspect of their suffering.

 

Hope this makes sense!

So do I!!

[Justanaverageguy]

 

Kamma never stops existing, because we never stop acting.

Let me try to illustrate.

 

You walk through a door. Someone behind you follows you, but you don't see them. The door (Unintentionally) shuts in their face and they get a bloody nose.

You tun, apologise profusely, help them with their bloody nose, and make amends. They forgive you say it was nothing, an accident, and it's ok.

They still have the bloody nose though....And maybe a black eye tomorrow.

 

You walk through a door. Someone behind you follows you, and you know thye're there, but the door (Intentionally) still shuts in their face, and they get a bloody nose. You turn, tell them they shouldn't have been so close behind you, and frankly it's not your job to watch their step. They remonstrate, you get into a huge argument, and leave them in tears, nursing a bloody nose, and what looks suspiciously like the beginning of a black eye.

 

You saw your (non) deliberate action and you knew it hurt, so you made immediate amends and tried to rectify the situation.

The Vipaka is not severe, and commensurate with your un-volitional action. It's harm, but no harm done in the long run.

 

You saw your (deliberate) action, and knew it hurt, but you didn't make amends - quite the opposite, without rectification, but with more insult to injury. The Vipaka will be more severe. It will match your volitional action. It's harm, and harm that will return - how? When? That's the uncertainty. But it's already begun, in your head, with your selfish attitude. You have planted the seeds of unhappiness, by being selfish....

 

That may not be the best example I can give, but it's the best I can do. Because the why and how of Kamma/Vipaka is not completely fathomable. It's linking between cause and effect, action and outcome, is not always apparent, clear-cut, direct or apparently just, to those who feel retribution is warranted.

 

 

I think these lines above are a very good summary and description of how Karma works.

 

From observations in my own life and others in the real world what I find is the most powerful thing you can do is consciously acknowledge a karmic situation and then deliberately act in the correct positive manner to resolve them. I actually say out loud "I understand" when I come across a karmic circumstance I know I caused. It seems to be a very powerful tool for me.

 

Because what I find interesting is the way the same Karmic situation will snowball and continue to re-manifest itself over and over again in different ways until we consciously accept the lesson to be learned. Like maybe I only did one "action" but the universe keeps showing me that experience with increasing regularity until I get it. The universe likes to be noticed I have found ..... and it is very persistent

 

So taking your simple example above about accidentally closing the door in someones face. If you react negatively and tell the person they shouldn't have been following so closely you won't necessarily get punched right there and then. You may just have a similar experience a few weeks later where something similar happens in reverse and you end up with a door or a gate or a window or a box or whatever hitting you accidentally and the person then abusing you for being in the wrong place. It puts you in the other perspective so you can see the consequences of your own actions. If you still don't acknowledge the Karma then it will even do some weird indirect things like put you in the third person. You will see the same situation played out in front of you by strangers on the street so you can see the behavior again from another perspective. I've actually seen friends and family be powerful tools for displaying karma sometimes because our own actions impacted them without us acknowledging it. When a person refuses to acknowledge a negative effect of their actions ..... that's when Karmic consequences build and build and build because you just keep repeating the same negative action over and over and over. It becomes almost like the universe is bashing you over the head to make it blindly obvious.

 

Its weird how once you kind of get it .... it starts to become really obvious. Like you can visibly see not just your own but also other peoples Karmic consequences played out and join the dots and wonder how they don't see it themselves. I've seen this again with family and friends and also even celebrities where all you see is the headlines.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Justanaverageguy

[Justanaverageguy]

There is actually a really unfortunate public display of "karma" in action happening in Australia right now. With a famous aboriginal sports star named Adam Goodes. Its really big news in Australia at the moment and very hard to watch. But it makes a good case for examining how "karma" sometimes operates.

 

To give a brief summary of the story. Australia has a very sad history of mistreatment of aboriginals in its past - quite similar to the US with their native american Indians. Adam was a very successful footballer. Named best player in the league on multiple occasions and used this platform to champion Aboriginal rights and racial equality. I'm sure you will agree a very positive ideal.

 

2 years back during Indigenous round (a round dedicated to recognizing aboriginals) a member of the crowd called out an insult to him after he scored a goal calling him a Gorilla. It was a 13 year old girl. He sprinted over and pointed to her and demanded that the police come down and remove her and her family from the stadium. Play was stopped - the entire crowd booed the little girl and her family as she was ejected from the stadium and held in custody by the police before they decided not to press charges. In the following days the little girl was harassed and bullied online and her name and face was splashed all over the papers as being a racist. She made a public apology which Adam then accepted. He went on to be nominated and win Australian of the year for his stance against racism. He was lorded as a hero against racism at the time. Why Adam Goodes is an inspired and inspiring choice as Australian of the Year

 

On the surface his actions seem positive and were publicly applauded by society. He stood up against racism and championed equality. She also did do something clearly very wrong in saying what she did. His actions did however result in a very negative experience for the young girl. She was publicly humiliated and vilified as a racist child. He and soceity was content that he had done the right thing and believed that the girl had learnt her lesson from the experience and now understood racism was bad. Her negative experience was "justified". But the universe does not believe in "justice" like that as time would soon tell.

 

Shortly after the wheels of karma began to turn. Following his winning the award he went on to write an article in the news paper where he attacked Australia's history and blamed European settlers for the murder and mistreatment of many Aboriginals which was not received well. People said he had chosen this platform to vilify the past, open old wounds and widen the racial divide rather then try to close it. He was widely condemned as being "racist". Kind of ironic yes. Adam Goodes Lets us all down

 

Then later this year during a football match (coincidentally during the exact same "Indigenous round" where he had pointed out the girl in the crowd 2 years early) he faked a push in the back to win a free kick. The opposition crowd started booing him for being a cheat. He visibly reacted back to the crowd so they continued to boo him whenever he touched the ball. Pretty standard at a football match but he got angrier and continued reacting so they continued booing. After kicking a goal (similar to 2 years earlier) he ran towards the away supporters bay and performed an aboriginal war dance where he pretended to throw a spear at the supporters booing him (kind of symbolic as its a very similar action to the pointing he did 2 years earlier). Rightly or wrongly the crowd took this action as him trying to say that they were being racist for booing him just as he had done with the little girl 2 years earlier. The crowd reacted very negatively and started booing and hurling abuse at him because they saw him as pretending to be a victim and "playing the race card" because they booed him for cheating.Adam Goodes Cries Wolf

 

For the last 6 or 7 weeks every single opposition teams supporters has booed him when ever he touched the ball. The narrative has completely changed from 2 years earlier from him being a "champion against racism" to him being a victim who plays the "race card". He is now being splashed across the papers and publicly humiliated. There has been some truly horrific statements against him in the press and in social media. As a result this week he stood himself down from playing and is contemplating retirement because he can't deal with the abuse. Adam Goodes Takes extended leave from Football. The mother of the girl he pointed at even came out and made a statement saying he brought it on himself and wants him to publicly apologise for what he did to her daughter (just as she had to do for him) Mother wants Adam Goodes Apology

 

Its a really really sad story but also very spooky how it is clearly a "reflection" of itself. I'm not commenting that anyone's actions here are either right or wrong I just think it is a perfect "public" example of how Karma and the universe really works. It is not always what we humans perceive as "fair". We think fair is Crime and punishment with one side being right and the other wrong. If you want to win with Karma you have to believe in Crime and forgiveness. If you punish someone else for a negative action against you then rest assured that karma will reflect that same behavior back on you.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Justanaverageguy

[TaraMaiden2]

Justanaverageguy, Thank you so much for posting.

It's certainly a salutary lesson in watching one's behaviour, and understanding that sooner or later, something IS going to give.

 

There's are a couple of sayings which resonated with me, at different times, and both of them are universal, in that they can apply to any, if not all situations where you have to use your judgement:

 

(1) If it feels good, do it.

When in doubt...? Don't.

 

(2) "Measure it twice, dear: You can only cut it the once."

 

At the end of the day, Karma is actually (at one and the same time) one of the most complex lessons the Buddha ever gave us; yet it is startlingly simple too.

The bottom line is that all we can do, is not waste time pondering what affects us now, that happened in the past; or what will affect us in the future, based on what happens now.

 

Neither should we waste time pondering that about others, too.

 

The best we can do - the only thing we can do - is to observe our every action now (mental, verbal and physical) and make sure that for the most part, 'we do good'.

 

If we mess up - say so. Do something to put it right.

If someone else messes up - breathe, step back, and accept that this is what others do, sometimes, and it's something we have to process 'skilfully and Mindfully'.

 

Thanks for your contributions. Well worth the read.

[Justanaverageguy]

 

(1) If it feels good, do it.

When in doubt...? Don't.

 

(2) "Measure it twice, dear: You can only cut it the once."

 

[/Quote]

 

Wise words I love this

 

 

The bottom line is that all we can do, is not waste time pondering what affects us now, that happened in the past; or what will affect us in the future, based on what happens now.

 

Neither should we waste time pondering that about others, too.

 

The best we can do - the only thing we can do - is to observe our every action now (mental, verbal and physical) and make sure that for the most part, 'we do good'.

 

If we mess up - say so. Do something to put it right.

If someone else messes up - breathe, step back, and accept that this is what others do, sometimes, and it's something we have to process 'skilfully and Mindfully'.

 

Agree - but a very tiny part of me disagrees. I do think there is a lot of value in taking the time to observe and learn from other people's Karma if we can. For me Karma is the ultimate learning tool. It is like a built in auto correct when you make a mistake and once you understand it - you can learn from it but also predict it to some extent. Why learn only from your own bad choices when you can observe everything and see all the patterns and signs the universe leaves for us to observe ? I am not a fortune teller but I have learnt if you pay attention to the details of the universe it will pay attention to you. Seriously .... it might even have a conversation with you if you see its patterns and consciously acknowledge them

 

The universe likes to be noticed .... and it leaves signs for those who do. I think it has a little bit of ego too

[TaraMaiden2]

....Agree - but a very tiny part of me disagrees. I do think there is a lot of value in taking the time to observe and learn from other people's Karma if we can. For me Karma is the ultimate learning tool. It is like a built in auto correct when you make a mistake and once you understand it - you can learn from it but also predict it to some extent. Why learn only from your own bad choices when you can observe everything and see all the patterns and signs the universe leaves for us to observe ?

Oh, what I meant was, in the same way that Pillowpuffs was looking for Kamma to 'condemn and sentence' her ex- we can't sit there, wait and expect for others to 'get theirs', and be overly concerned with waiting for their come-uppance....

Insofar as observing the behaviour of others in an educational way, as a way of simply digesting why people do what they do and what makes them tick, yes, I agree....

 

I am not a fortune teller but I have learnt if you pay attention to the details of the universe it will pay attention to you. Seriously .... it might even have a conversation with you if you see its patterns and consciously acknowledge them

 

The universe likes to be noticed .... and it leaves signs for those who do. I think it has a little bit of ego too

 

Well, from my own objective, the Universe has no personality and no ego. It is a non-sentient dwelling place with no mind of its own. I can't quite see where you're coming from with the 'Universe's Ego' thing.

To me, it's all in *here*, (points to head) every bit of it.

The Universe is just what it is. A big place we live in.

[Justanaverageguy]

Well, from my own objective, the Universe has no personality and no ego. It is a non-sentient dwelling place with no mind of its own. I can't quite see where you're coming from with the 'Universe's Ego' thing.

To me, it's all in *here*, (points to head) every bit of it.

The Universe is just what it is. A big place we live in.

 

Good statements to start and interesting discussion The idea of non-duality is one of the hardest to grasp for most people. I love the Buddhist philosophies as principles to live by - but I find other expressions of the same truth can more clearly conceptualize this idea of non duality and the ultimate reality of the universe. (Music, Art, Mathematics, Biology and Physics). Before we go into that firstly let me say I strongly agree with some statements you made and completely disagree with others.

 

Starting with what I disagree with you on first. That the universe is just a "non-sentient dwelling place". I totally and completely disagree with this statement. Its like the universe is a living room or something where us blessed "sentient" beings live and interact.

 

What I do agree on is your statement that the entirety of the universe you experience is - all in *here*, (points to your head) every bit of it.

 

So I'll start with a loaded question before I explain my beliefs to you: Where does the universe that "I" experience come from ? Who's head does that come out of ? Your head too .... or my head .... or another head ?

 

Who's head is it ?

[TaraMaiden2]

Good statements to start and interesting discussion The idea of non-duality is one of the hardest to grasp for most people. I love the Buddhist philosophies as principles to live by - but I find other expressions of the same truth can more clearly conceptualize this idea of non duality and the ultimate reality of the universe. (Music, Art, Mathematics, Biology and Physics). Before we go into that firstly let me say I strongly agree with some statements you made and completely disagree with others.

 

Starting with what I disagree with you on first. That the universe is just a "non-sentient dwelling place". I totally and completely disagree with this statement. Its like the universe is a living room or something where us blessed "sentient" beings live and interact.

 

What I do agree on is your statement that the entirety of the universe you experience is - all in *here*, (points to your head) every bit of it.

 

So I'll start with a loaded question before I explain my beliefs to you: Where does the universe that "I" experience come from ? Who's head does that come out of ? Your head too .... or my head .... or another head ?

 

Who's head is it ?

 

Where does this "I" live, exactly?

[pillowpuffs]

This has been very insightful. I do think that to some extent, I may sound quite obsessed or overly concerned with comeuppance for my ex - the thoughts above have made me realise that troubling myself with such thoughts are unhelpful and also destructive. I think especially because I've always thought of myself as a good person, I feel that the pain I've had to go through has been really unfair and hence the idea of justice and karma keeps popping in my head. I realise this is not up to me to decide whether or not it's fair. It's happened and there isn't anything I can do but go through the motions; feel the pain and slowly come to accept it. (Saying this is a lot easier than actually doing it but I've really got to try to stop these 'this is so unfair' thoughts and focus on me).

 

Although I would like to point out that the obsession isn't mutually exclusive. Like you've said, TaraMaiden2, "The best we can do - the only thing we can do - is to observe our every action now (mental, verbal and physical) and make sure that for the most part, 'we do good'. " I have been trying my best to do this even more so than from before, and I hope in that I find fulfilment.

[pillowpuffs]

Wise words I love this

 

 

 

 

Agree - but a very tiny part of me disagrees. I do think there is a lot of value in taking the time to observe and learn from other people's Karma if we can. For me Karma is the ultimate learning tool. It is like a built in auto correct when you make a mistake and once you understand it - you can learn from it but also predict it to some extent. Why learn only from your own bad choices when you can observe everything and see all the patterns and signs the universe leaves for us to observe ? I am not a fortune teller but I have learnt if you pay attention to the details of the universe it will pay attention to you. Seriously .... it might even have a conversation with you if you see its patterns and consciously acknowledge them

 

The universe likes to be noticed .... and it leaves signs for those who do. I think it has a little bit of ego too

 

 

I'm very curious to know what you mean by the bolded part above..

[Justanaverageguy]

Where does this "I" live, exactly?

 

The universe obscures the truth through cascading levels of "scale" and complexity. So let me shrink things down and use a very crude .... but also appropriate metaphor to explain.

 

Imagine for a moment that "you" and "I" are not human beings. Imagine instead that we are each individual living brain cells. We are "cells" which are both "alive" and we have our own very limited and primitive level of "consciousness" we experience individually. This consciousness is separate .... but it is also connected together with trillions of other brain cells. Together they make up one larger super-consciousness we are all collectively apart of called the brain. So if you look at me on a tiny scale I am separate and unique but if you zoom out I also live within a larger living consciousness greater then I am. Replace "brain" with "universe" and you essentially have the picture of where I as a human being live I used "living room" earlier as a bit of a word play - because where we live is literally alive. The universe is a "living" super-consciousness you are a very small part of

 

So "my" primitive experience of the universe is completely contained within my individual head ... but my head is then quite literally contained with in a larger head combined with all other heads. You know that thing with the holy trinity in Christianity. Three leaf clover and 3 separate beings all making up a larger being. Begotten not made ... one being with the father. Son of god ... as in a son being a smaller version of a larger father it came from. Christianity did have some truths hidden within the craziness. For 2000 years ago I think Jesus seriously couldn't have really described the truth of the universe any clearer then he did. Humans just didn't "get it". They turned god into a man with a white beard.

 

I - and you - are merely a smaller more primitive subset of a larger super-consciousness. Anything I contain must also be contained within the "greater version" of myself. So ergo I know the universe has an ego ..... because I do.

 

I encourage you to look into Fractal Mathematics, string theory and vibrations if you want a more complete picture of how this all fits together from a more scientific perspective. I can give you links if you need them. These aren't links to crazy off the wall conspiracy aliens have visited videos .... they are solid, (quite boring) scientifically proven mathematical and physics based documentaries.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Justanaverageguy

[Justanaverageguy]

I'm very curious to know what you mean by the bolded part above..

 

I mean exactly what I said. The universe is alive. Pay attention to it and it will pay more attention to you. It has patterns that can be read and it can communicate directly with you. Its kind of like communicating with a supersized version of yourself which can pass knowledge you couldn't comprehend on your own.

 

Eastern spirituality might refer to this as a "Satori" - a glimpse into the nature of your true self. But its been common in Western culture as well. This is basically the secret of pretty much all the great masters in the arts, literature and science. Ever heard of a "muse" ? The Godesses of inspiration in greek and roman mythology.

 

When you pay attention to the universe it pays attention to you. It likes to have its ego stroked when it does a good job just like you do (I think that could be where the primitive idea of "worship" came from in old world religions). But the universe only likes a very very specific type of attention that follows the strict rules and patterns that govern it.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Justanaverageguy

[TaraMaiden2]

The universe obscures the truth through cascading levels of "scale" and complexity. So let me shrink things down and use a very crude .... but also appropriate metaphor to explain.

 

Imagine for a moment that "you" and "I" are not human beings. Imagine instead that we are each individual living brain cells.

There's no point, because this is not the case. Imagination is all well and good, but it obscures the reality...

 

We are "cells" which are both "alive" and we have our own very limited and primitive level of "consciousness" we experience individually. This consciousness is separate .... but it is also connected together with trillions of other brain cells. Together they make up one larger super-consciousness we are all collectively apart of called the brain.

I see what you're trying to get at, but it's still not working for me....

 

So if you look at me on a tiny scale I am separate and unique but if you zoom out I also live within a larger living consciousness greater then I am. Replace "brain" with "universe"

No: Replace 'brain' with 'humanity'. We are all interconnected as a collective Consciousness and just like a vast ocean are all waves making the whole. This has 'nothing' to do with the Universe.

 

and you essentially have the picture of where I as a human being live I used "living room" earlier as a bit of a word play - because where we live is literally alive. The universe is a "living" super-consciousness you are a very small part of

You're 'thinking' too big. It's enough to bring it down to a Human level. Because kamma and re-birth take care of the interconnections....

 

So "my" primitive experience of the universe is completely contained within my individual head ... but my head is then quite literally contained with in a larger head combined with all other heads.

No. Your Prime Consciousness is interconnected with the Prime Consciousness of your fellow human beings. There IS no single, large brain, because we're individuals on an ordinary level, and our stream of consciousness is connected yet separate.

 

You know that thing with the holy trinity in Christianity. Three leaf clover and 3 separate beings all making up a larger being.

No, you misunderstand it. There is the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit is the Unconditional Love that binds them to our destiny.

 

Begotten not made ... one being with the father. Son of god ... as in a son being a smaller version of a larger father it came from. Christianity did have some truths hidden within the craziness. For 2000 years ago I think Jesus seriously couldn't have really described the truth of the universe any clearer then he did. Humans just didn't "get it". They turned god into a man with a white beard.

I'm afraid I utterly discount wither God or Jesus Christ as being of any significance to me.

I really don't care either way whether they exist or not, because I have no need of either of them. (Ex- Church-going Roman Catholic of 40 years, BTW....)

 

I - and you - are merely a smaller more primitive subset of a larger super-consciousness. Anything I contain must also be contained within the "greater version" of myself. So ergo I know the universe has an ego ..... because I do.

This is classified as 'wrong' view, in Buddhism. And I really can't agree with you....

 

I encourage you to look into Fractal Mathematics, string theory and vibrations if you want a more complete picture of how this all fits together from a more scientific perspective. I can give you links if you need them. These aren't links to crazy off the wall conspiracy aliens have visited videos .... they are solid, (quite boring) scientifically proven mathematical and physics based documentaries.

Ah. Ok, look, I 'suffer' from dyscalculia. Numbers are an anathema to me, other than basic every-day maths anything on an even remotely higher level can actually make me faint with fear.

 

Sorry.

[Justanaverageguy]

There's no point, because this is not the case. Imagination is all well and good, but it obscures the reality ... I see what you're trying to get at, but it's still not working for me....

[/Quote]

 

I'm not going to force you to believe. Something I have been told by others who understand the same reality that I do (there are lots of people who think the same) .... is that you cannot tell someone the real "truth" until they are ready to hear it. The universe has to show you when you are ready. It can't be forced. Its like there is a magical block in place that stops you from understanding until you are ready to see. Its weird I can't explain how that works but hopefully my words my push you towards it. I had a girl who told me all this a few years back and I thought it was garbage ... then bang. Satori and it all made sense.

 

No: Replace 'brain' with 'humanity'. We are all interconnected as a collective Consciousness and just like a vast ocean are all waves making the whole. This has 'nothing' to do with the Universe. You're 'thinking' too big. It's enough to bring it down to a Human level. Because kamma and re-birth take care of the interconnections....

 

[/Quote]

I'm not thinking to big. The issue is you are limited by the scale at which you live and can't see the bigger picture. You want to think you are a special unique snow flake and the "universe" exists only at your scale. Its vast and infinite it exists well beyond anything you can comprehend. The "super-consciousness" I spoke about is only 1 scale up. It goes many many scales higher. The super-consciousness of the universe can be zoomed out again and viewed as a single brain cell which is effectively apart of another much larger brain a super-super-consciousness. Its like babushka dolls it just keeps going

 

The cells in our body go through the exact same cycle of birth and death just like we do. They are absorbed back into the human body from which they came ... just as we are absorbed back into the earth. I mean If you could talk to a red blood cell in your body and told it that it was actually living in side a giant more complex living being do you think it would believe you? Seriously it would look at you and say you are crazy. You are thinking to big - look around. Look at me I am seperate I float around in my universe called the blood stream. All my red blood cells friends and I are seperate and the universe we live in is just a "non-sentient dwelling". It is not alive I mean look at bones. They are inanimate and don't move or do anything how could they possibly be "alive" and part of the same being that I am part of. That doesn't make any sense.

 

No. Your Prime Consciousness is interconnected with the Prime Consciousness of your fellow human beings. There IS no single, large brain, because we're individuals on an ordinary level, and our stream of consciousness is connected yet separate.

 

But here is the things how do brain cells connect to form complex thoughts and form a larger coherent brain and self ? I'll tell you the neurons "fire" electrical impulses to create connections which form brain waves connecting the different cells together. Electromagnetic impulses join the individual cells to form more complex thoughts and ideas. All the simultaneous brain waves produced in the brain at a single moment form the "self" and consciousness we call "I"

 

How do humans communicate with each other ? Sight and sound ? What are sight and sound - Electomagnetic impulses. Its exactly the same at a larger scale. So the combination of all the electromagnetic waves simultaneously produced within the universe is basically what we call - the universe or god. A super consciousness created exactly like our brain is.

 

No, you misunderstand it. There is the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit is the Unconditional Love that binds them to our destiny.

 

[/Quote]

I'm not sure if you are kidding but this is exactly it. Son is a smaller more primitive version of the father. Spirit is what ? Electromagnetic waves that connect the smaller pieces together to create the larger whole. You would call it the Holy Spirit if you are catholic, Electromagnetic Energy if you're a scientist, Qi if you are Chinese , Prana if your Indian or Ki if you are Japense. Alternatively you could call it love or life force as well.

 

Are you beginning to see how the dots connect and these religions (or science) just had different ways of describing the exact same thing ?

I'm afraid I utterly discount wither God or Jesus Christ as being of any significance to me.

I really don't care either way whether they exist or not, because I have no need of either of them. (Ex- Church-going Roman Catholic of 40 years, BTW....)

I'm also not a practicing christian and Jesus was nothing more then an enlightened man ... much like Buddah. Interesting video here from Alan Watts who agrees. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1qui6pC54A. I was raised in the religion as a child but shunned it because its ideals were rubbish. But it does still have some hidden truths within it like all religions. All pointing to the same truth. We are all one. Even science and physics can't explain past what it calls "singularity". It is one of the key teachings of Buddhism but still most Buddhists don't understand how it works. Likewise "reincarnation" they seriously don't get it. Every cell in the human body has been reincarnated. Its a copy that came from the same single cell at birth. The human body and biology explain reincarnation perfectly. Go and watch a high school level video on the cycle of cellular replication. They even call the new cells that are born ... daughter cells. Seriously. Daughter cells. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy3N5NCZBHQ

Edited July 29, 2015 by Justanaverageguy

[Justanaverageguy]

Also this -> Our Brain's Neurons Look Exactly Like The Structure Of The Universe - disinformation

[TaraMaiden2]

This thread was begun as an aide to pillowpuffs regarding Kamma and her break-up with her ex.

I think it's going off topic, so if you want to begin a new thread, I'll ask mod's to do so.

[Justanaverageguy]

This thread was begun as an aide to pillowpuffs regarding Kamma and her break-up with her ex.

I think it's going off topic, so if you want to begin a new thread, I'll ask mod's to do so.

 

Apologies if I ran off topic. I don't think there is any need to get a mod involved.

 

We did get a little bit side tracked but my view is if you have a more complete understanding of what the "universe" really is then you have a much more complete understanding of what Karma is. Because it is not a mysterious, hard to understand process. It is a biological process designed to assist with the survival and evolution of the living universe.

 

If you understand that everything in the universe is a "living consciousness". You also begin to understand that the idea of Karma is not limited to Buddhism. It is not limited to one specific philosophical or religious ideal. It is not a "mysterious" system anymore you don't fully understand. It has very explicit, finite rules it follows. They are the rules of energy. Because I mentioned above all these different words from different fields of thought mean the exact same thing "Electro Magnetic Energy", "Holy Spirit", "Prana", "Qi", "Ki". Karma is simply the rules that govern the "Exchange" of this energy.

 

That is the rule of Karma. Its predictable, it can be modeled, mapped and deeply understood and already has been by the greatest mind in the history of humanity. People as intelligent as Albert Einstein. (E= MC2 and all that). Newton (Every action has an equal and opposite reaction). These are the laws of Karma. You can follow the same rules to create great music, great art and great literature, more efficient business systems, more equitable and fair finance and political systems.

 

I think a good example of this is in the movie a Beautiful mind. Watch this scene from the movie - this is how John Nash invented one of the most famous laws of Economics and game theory. Its also how he used "the laws of Karma" to get laid

 

Karma is the law of life and when you pay attention to the details .... you see it is the secret to everything. Not just human relationships. But assuming that's how you want to apply it then go and buy a physics text book on energy and simply replace "energy" with the word "love". Or by an economics text book and replace "money" with "love". Best relationship guides you will ever read.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Justanaverageguy

[Justanaverageguy]

Sorry now applying this to pillowpuffs breakup ..... using the laws of "energy" it is important thing to note that all energy (including the negative energy we receive from a bad break up) can not be destroyed. The physics text book says it does one of 3 things.

 

1. It is reflected back out at the outside world. Either directly at the source of the negative energy (your ex) or to others you are close to (friends family) I think we agree this is bad because we know that this negative energy will affect others and then likely reflect and come back to you in some way. Maybe not directly but it will get to you eventually.

 

2. It is absorbed by the body it hits. This is again very bad. This is when people repress anger, guilt, hate etc. This results in people who become depressed, manic and have serious health issues. It rots them from the inside out.

 

3. Lastly and most importantly the one we want to focus on - Energy can be transformed. How do we transform negative energy from a break up into something positive ? Forgiveness. That's the magical conversion process the human body has. As a man who has gone through a pretty horrific breakup a couple of years back I can speak to the power of this. Seriously could change your life - there is nothing more powerful in the Karmic and energy laws then transforming negative energy into positive energy.

 

So 3 options to choose from. Options 1 and 2 both have negative consequences. Option 3 has immensely powerful positive consequences for you and those around you. Tough choice right ????

Edited July 30, 2015 by Justanaverageguy

[Robert]

Moderation Note - Thank you for bringing the thread back to how applicable a higher sense of self can apply to getting through and understanding breakups or how things happen in a sense of the Law of Universal "Forces".

 

As long as this stays on that topic and, not a shooting match of various theories, this moderator feels that anyone, not just pillowpuff, should benefit from the contributions of both members.

 

Please continue with respect to each other opinions and on topic of self improvement and personal well-being.

 

Thank you

[Justanaverageguy]

Moderation Note - Thank you for bringing the thread back to how applicable a higher sense of self can apply to getting through and understanding breakups or how things happen in a sense of the Law of Universal "Forces".

 

As long as this stays on that topic and, not a shooting match of various theories, this moderator feels that anyone, not just pillowpuff, should benefit from the contributions of both members.

 

Please continue with respect to each other opinions and on topic of self improvement and personal well-being.

 

Thank you

 

Thanks all friends here - I hope I didn't offend anyone, will try and stay more on topic in future

Edited July 30, 2015 by Justanaverageguy

[Justanaverageguy]

Tara I re-read my post and realized I did come on a bit strong with my ideas. Sorry I get quite worked up on this topic. I really hope I didn't offend you. I actually really really enjoy the Buddhist philosophies so didn't mean to dismiss or belittle them in any way but realize my comments may have come across as such.

[pillowpuffs]

Sorry now applying this to pillowpuffs breakup ..... using the laws of "energy" it is important thing to note that all energy (including the negative energy we receive from a bad break up) can not be destroyed. The physics text book says it does one of 3 things.

 

1. It is reflected back out at the outside world. Either directly at the source of the negative energy (your ex) or to others you are close to (friends family) I think we agree this is bad because we know that this negative energy will affect others and then likely reflect and come back to you in some way. Maybe not directly but it will get to you eventually.

 

2. It is absorbed by the body it hits. This is again very bad. This is when people repress anger, guilt, hate etc. This results in people who become depressed, manic and have serious health issues. It rots them from the inside out.

 

3. Lastly and most importantly the one we want to focus on - Energy can be transformed. How do we transform negative energy from a break up into something positive ? Forgiveness. That's the magical conversion process the human body has. As a man who has gone through a pretty horrific breakup a couple of years back I can speak to the power of this. Seriously could change your life - there is nothing more powerful in the Karmic and energy laws then transforming negative energy into positive energy.

 

So 3 options to choose from. Options 1 and 2 both have negative consequences. Option 3 has immensely powerful positive consequences for you and those around you. Tough choice right ????

 

Sorry, I just got the time to process this and reply to this. I have decided that I've done a lot of 1 and 2. I have not contacted my ex at all but when I'm with my friends or talking to them about the whole situation, I guess I am projecting negative energy onto them? I've tried to stop speaking about my ex as much because I think my friends (as sweet as they are) have gotten tired of hearing from me. Regardless, even if I don't talk, my general demeanour because I am so down is a reflection of negative energy isn't it?

 

As for no.2, I think my negative energy is taking a toll on my body. I have been sick since day 1 of the break up and even though 2 months on, I am better to some extent (still on some anti-biotics though), I generally have no energy to do a lot of things. Going out for simple chores, going to school, going out to meet friends, is a HUGE effort. I contemplate not going constantly because I feel so drained and just tired.

 

As for point 3... I am rather confused by it. What do you mean by forgiveness? Are you saying that if I forgive on my end (I'm not contacting my ex at all because he really wouldn't give a ****) that slowly this negative energy dissipates?

[TaraMaiden2]

Regardless, even if I don't talk, my general demeanour because I am so down is a reflection of negative energy isn't it?

Yes, but don't worry. It's remediable...

 

As for no.2, I think my negative energy is taking a toll on my body. I have been sick since day 1 of the break up and even though 2 months on, I am better to some extent (still on some anti-biotics though), I generally have no energy to do a lot of things. Going out for simple chores, going to school, going out to meet friends, is a HUGE effort. I contemplate not going constantly because I feel so drained and just tired.

Grief - Depression will do this.

According to TCM*, there is absolutely a connection between the Emotional Body and the Physical body.

The two are inextricably intertwined, and in fact, every major Organ has its own associated 'Emotion'.

So while those emotions are in play, or unbalanced, out of kilter, disrupted, those organs will have depleted energy.

 

I studied TCM in some depth while learning to become a Shiatsu therapist. It never ceased to amaze me. It's still as relevant today as it was 4000 years ago, and works amazingly...

 

(TCM = Traditional Chinese Medicine).

 

As for point 3... I am rather confused by it. What do you mean by forgiveness? Are you saying that if I forgive on my end (I'm not contacting my ex at all because he really wouldn't give a ****) that slowly this negative energy dissipates?

 

Johnathan Lockwood said:

 

"Forgive others: Not because THEY deserve forgiveness, but because YOU deserve Peace."

 

I think that really just sums it up.

 

I meditate on factors which involve others, and which pull me back. I sit, and visualise my heart opening, like a lotus blossom, a brilliant, sparkling gleaming rose-pink-cream-while Lotus bloom, unfurling its petals one by one, until the light emitted is so brilliant, it lights up all darkness. Its dazzling in its blissful luminosity.

That's my Love.

And I extend it out to include myself, and others.

 

I embrace US. Not 'Myself then them'..... Us. All together.

That is why Unconditional Love is so powerful. Because it MUST include us.