The old "Can men and women be friends?" debate

[makelemonade1974]

I often seem to end up in this situation where I have a close guy friend that I'm not attracted to who ends up "falling in love" with me (for lack of a better phrase) or some such thing. The most recent one is problematic, because I have had "the talk" with him several times - "the talk" consisting of - "you know we are never going to date or have sex, right?" but in sort of a nicer way, or after we've both been drinking so it comes across easier.

 

This guy is really nice and we've become rather close over the past few months, but he talks out of both sides of his mouth. He's like "yeah, we are NEVER going to date" and then he gets ridiculously flirty - head leans in, etc. Last night he kissed me on the cheek when I complimented his photos (he's a part-time photog). Gheesh.

 

WHY does this keep happening to me? Am I doing something unconscious to make him believe I'm interested in him? Body language or something? Do I need to just restrict my friendships to friendships with either women or gay men?

[betterdeal]

I used to have lots of these sorts of relationships, where boundaries were blurred and attention became uncomfortable. I was part of it, but when I paid attention to my own feelings, I've realised I am a lot more stable and able to maintain platonic relationships than a lot of women I meet. So it's basically a two-way thing. Nowadays I back off quite quickly if I feel I am being pushed by someone - usually someone pretty unstable and "WACKY".

 

All you can do is acknowledge how you feel at any time and make your decisions, actions, words work in your favour.

[oaks]

WHY does this keep happening to me?

 

Because you're attractive!

 

A kiss on the cheek can be a friendly gesture between good friends, but if that's too intimate for you (with this friend) then tell him.

[Titania22]

I am having a go at it, we'll see.

[makelemonade1974]

Because you're attractive!

 

A kiss on the cheek can be a friendly gesture between good friends, but if that's too intimate for you (with this friend) then tell him.

 

That can't just be it - I'm not THAT cute for ciol that men can't literally control themselves around me. I did tell him the kiss on the cheek was too much - I said "that was inappropriate" and it basically ruined the rest of the night. Grrrr

[EasyHeart]

True male-female friendships exist, but they're very rare, especially if both of you are single. I have lots of female friends, but in all of those case there is some kind of chemistry, usually mutual. That's what makes them fun. But you either have to date or you have to keep some pretty strict boundaries.

 

One of the problems, I think, is that so many women use the "friend" line as a "nice" way to reject men. When a woman says, "Let's be friends", a guy hears "She wants me, but she's testing me to see how much I like her".

[oaks]

That can't just be it - I'm not THAT cute for ciol that men can't literally control themselves around me. I did tell him the kiss on the cheek was too much - I said "that was inappropriate" and it basically ruined the rest of the night. Grrrr

 

I don't just mean cute (but you are), I mean your personality as well.

 

Anyway, you didn't ruin the evening. He did.

[Cee]

I'm good with making friendships with men. I have strict boundaries that I never cross, even if I'm attracted to them. And if I think I have ulterior motives, I back off for a few months to reassess the relationship.

 

It is rare that a man is friends with me and attracted. It's happened only once that I know of. I don't think I'm ugly or anything, but I don't set off a girlie vibe with them. Sometimes I think they forget I'm a woman because they'll say candid things in front of me.

 

My current boyfriend is very similar to my male best friends. I have a theory that I like my boyfriend because I have come to prefer men who are like my male friends. It's interesting how my male friends have shaped my dating life. But I never tried to make my men friends my dating life. I think that boundary has been helpful.

 

I also am cultivating friendships with women. Having both women and men friends has been great. But oddly, my women friends don't seem to care for my male friends. They are nice to them, but don't see how amazing they are. Maybe I'm the odd ball for having male friends. I dunno.

[GoodOnPaper]

This guy is really nice and we've become rather close over the past few months

 

Yes, and this "becoming rather close" will naturally generate attraction on the guy's part -- it makes total sense. If you are truly becoming friends, then he is probably opening up about himself in ways that few people see. This generates a sense of intimacy (on his part only, apparently) which in turn generates attraction (again, on his part only). This is how I operate. I suspect it's how a lot of regular guys operate. The extrovert/player types don't need to operate this way because they always have several women that they are "becoming rather close" to, platonically and/or sexually.

 

This paradox drives me crazy. To be dating material, you have to wow a woman physically within the first 15 seconds that she lays her eyes on you, yet you're supposed to be able to become her best friend -- just going by the posts from women on a thread about the latter on the marriage forum. Well . . . this "becoming rather close" process that you're experiencing is how you become best friends. The guy is simply following an emotional line of reasoning that makes total sense to him. Good luck.

[Mrlonelyone]

The idea that people who may be attracted to eachother cannot be friends is rubbish. The proof lies in the queer community.

 

Gay men to my experience and inspite of what Hollywood tells you have mostly male friends and they don't screw all of them.

 

Lesbian women also have mostly female friends and they don't screw all of them.

 

Bisexuals male and female have friends period and they aren't trying to screw all of them.

 

I'll bet at least one person reading this is thinking so what. "Heterosexual attraction is more normal and natural and stronger.... etc etc BS BS". Well get over it it isn't. It's the same sex drive in everyone simply directed in different ways. So what's the deal really?

 

The deal is social skills. Queer people learn the social skills to get along with people they could find attractive in a small community. We learn these skills because we have no choice much like people in a small town.

 

Those of you who can't remain friendly with an EX, or who can't have same sex friends need to move to a small town for a few years. You'll learn that when you have no choice but to see people around you have a deeper capacity for being civil and social even when sexual attraction is involved.

 

TLDR:If sexual attraction negated friendship then no queer person would have friends (in particular bisexuals).

[Mrlonelyone]

This paradox drives me crazy. To be dating material, you have to wow a woman physically within the first 15 seconds that she lays her eyes on you, yet you're supposed to be able to become her best friend -- just going by the posts from women on a thread about the latter on the marriage forum. Well . . . this "becoming rather close" process that you're experiencing is how you become best friends. The guy is simply following an emotional line of reasoning that makes total sense to him. Good luck.

 

Me too. The idea that people is one that married people get. Love,real love comes with time and friendship. What most on the dating board are concerned with is attraction and lust, the early honeymoon phase.

[irc333]

"you know we are never going to date

 

 

He's probably okay with that

 

..... or have sex, right?"

 

Let's say he's hoping to at least have sex.....I recall, in a post, that you mentioned about having sexual relations with a man that was purely a friends-with-benefits situation.

 

But yet.....you won't have sex (FWB) with THIS man?

 

Why is that?

[EasyHeart]

Physical attraction is a necessary component of romantic relationships. If a woman is not hot, I'm not going to want to date her, no matter how nice of a person she is.

[irc333]

True male-female friendships exist, but they're very rare.

 

Yes, and even THEN, their is some kind of unusual boundary, like one time I thought I was good friends with a female friend. We typically hung together on occasion.

 

Then she mentioned how she went dancing a couple of time with her other female friends, and I suggested perhaps I could come along next time they go out.

 

She said, "Will you promise not to hit on my friends?"

 

And I responded, "Only if I turn gay is when I can keep that promise" and kind of laughed off, but was rather turned off by that comment, where the hell did she get off expecting to keep such a promise? LOL

 

So foolish.

 

SO, needless to say, I never got an invite for a night on the town with her lady friends. I hadn't really been in touch with her much since.

[nyc_guy2003]

That can't just be it - I'm not THAT cute for ciol that men can't literally control themselves around me.

 

You don't have to be insanely good looking to attract unwanted attention. I find that girls who are generally attractive and have friendly/open personalities will usually attract guys even if they don't want to. For me, I am married and having good looking female friends and even though I find them attractive I'm not looking to hook up with any of them. I will admit though it is somewhat of an ego boost to hang out with hot girls and get their undivided attention every now and then.

[carhill]

What mutual interests do you share? Your respective social lives are not a mutual interest. Regale me with the conversations about sports, literature, travel, philosophy, etc.

 

I can say, without exception, *every* female friend in my lifetime has attempted (some have succeeded) in turning me into a girlfriend, complaint box and tampon. They slide down the slippery slope of intimacy with a man and wonder why his penis gets in their way. They make the choice. I start with interests and interest in their interests. I don't flirt. My hands don't roam. My lips don't search for theirs.

 

Women, in general, want it both ways. They want their 'network' and they like feeling 'special', even with platonic male friends. They know exactly what they're doing when they do it. I see it every day. I see it with women I interact with privately on LS. I accept it as their truth.

 

I suggested this in another thread, since it goes along with contravening normal dating protocols:

 

Seek out and *approach* men with similar interests in a friendly way, focusing on the interest and without regard to their relationship status. Keep the focus away from personal and relationship issues. The combination of approach (which generally diffuses a male's romantic intent/process) and focusing only on interests (which negates the potential for sexual flirtation) and being proactive in both regards keeps the relationship firmly in friendly territory. Like a man approaching a woman for romance, this path is littered with rejections. Men might not want a female friend. Men might want to f*ck you. Men might find you inappropriate. Welcome to the world of a man. Glad you could join us. Good luck

[oaks]

They slide down the slippery slope of intimacy with a man and wonder why his penis gets in their way.

 

This is brilliant.

[runner]

One of the problems, I think, is that so many women use the "friend" line as a "nice" way to reject men. When a woman says, "Let's be friends", a guy hears "She wants me, but she's testing me to see how much I like her".

 

i think it's a rather pathetic, desperate guy who thinks this way.

 

That can't just be it - I'm not THAT cute for ciol that men can't literally control themselves around me.

 

if that's you on that photo, then i think you're stunning and i'd make a move on you

 

and for the original question: only if both parties agree to keep it as 'just friends', without ambiguity.

[makelemonade1974]

Let's say he's hoping to at least have sex.....I recall, in a post, that you mentioned about having sexual relations with a man that was purely a friends-with-benefits situation.

 

But yet.....you won't have sex (FWB) with THIS man?

 

Why is that?

 

God, you make me sound like a slut. I was friends / dated a guy a while back, but I wasn't ready for a relationship because I'm not over my ex, and while I was physically attracted to him, we didn't mesh in other ways. It was always clear we were "dating" but not looking for a relationship. The point is - the physical attraction was there.

 

I won't have sex with this man because 1) I don't sleep with my friends; 2) I am really really really not attracted to him. It is just not there.

 

@Carhill - we have tons of mutual interests, I just don't find him attractive. This idea that women want to feel "special" is indeed the problem. And I think it's more unconscious than you realize. Women behave differently with men than with their girlfriends - regardless of whether they find the man attractive or not. I'm trying really hard to figure out exactly what kind of behavior is making male friends think that line is going to be crossed.

 

I think a lot of people have hit on it with the intimacy thing. And this guy is not the most secure person in the world, unfortunately, so I'm in a bit of a pickle (of my own creation)

Edited May 12, 2011 by makelemonade1974

[EasyHeart]

That's what I mean about keeping up appropriate boundaries. If you go out at night to a bar with a guy, he's thinking "she digs me". If you invite him over to watch a movie, he thinks "I'm getting some tonight!" If you go out to lunch once a month, he thinks "Is this a date or not?". I have one female friend whom I know is interested in me romantically, and I pretty much limit my contact with her to phone and email. I don't want to give her the wrong idea. And if he flirts with you, you have to shut it down fast. You can be a stone-cold bitch, can't you?

 

I think it's actually easier to be friends from the male side, because we're expected to make the moves, so if we don't want to make a move, nothing ever happens. From the female side, you kind of always have to be wary that he's going to do something.

 

I think one good gauge of whether he is thinking about "more than friends" is how he reacts when you talk about other men. If he's happy when you're dating someone else, then he's probably thinking "friends". If he gets weird or says/implies that the other guy isn't right for you, he wants you for himself.

[Dusk1983]

 

Women, in general, want it both ways. They want their 'network' and they like feeling 'special', even with platonic male friends.

 

I agree fully with your whole post, esp. this part.

 

And I think girls could easily shut down these situations much earlier than they do.

 

However unpopular this might be, in my experience most girls spot the extra attention from a friend very quickly, but most enjoy it and so respond (perhaps involuntarily?) in a way that guys take as encouragement - rightly or wrongly. Thus, he begins to fall for her. She, meanwhile, never felt anything for him at any stage. Why? Because there wasn't any 'chemistry' with him when they first met.

 

The most startling thing about all this is that women berate men for falling for someone based purely on the superficial and not prioritising character. They talk endlessly about 'needing to know someone' to develop any real feelings for him. But when a man does transcend the carnal and the physical, does prioritise character, does build a real and genuine intimacy with a friend they might not have found attractive initially, he has no hope of reciprocation.

 

Zilch.

 

Nada.

 

He's a decent chap, one of the few who chose to put character and personality and connection ahead of lust, but he's still doing 20-to-life in a purgatory of unrequited intimacy. He's rotting away in the 'friendzone'.

 

I'd suggest it is actually women that are controlled and restricted by their early physical impressions of someone.

 

Men, contrary to stereotype, are more easily able to transcend them.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Dusk1983

[carhill]

I think it's actually easier to be friends from the male side, because we're expected to make the moves, so if we don't want to make a move, nothing ever happens.

 

I would generally agree, but do have contradictory datapoints, markedly within the group of my exW's girlfriends, some of whom worked on me for years, slowly escalating while I kept things firmly in platonic territory until a tipping point on that slippery slope was reached and my penis (meaning sexual desire) did indeed get in the way. I relate an example, as part of a larger story, in one of my journals. In actuality, M's actions largely mirror those of the 'old friend', with the marked difference being I was never 'attracted' to M and thought of her purely as my exW's best friend of many years, something which is quite common of me to do, as intimacy tends to drive my attraction. Stay away from intimacy and flirtation and, IMO, most men will leave or accept a platonic friendship. Some men will orbit, and I've certainly been guilty of that, but only when intimacy was enacted or ersatzed, meaning faked. I've encountered plenty of fakers too, sorry to say. Nothing worse than ersatz intimacy, IMO.

[guy777]

I'd suggest it is actually women that are controlled and restricted by their early physical impressions of someone.

 

Men, contrary to stereotype, are more easily able to transcend them.

 

This is BS. Men also take more interest in women they initially find attractive. If she's not attractive to us, but has a great personality and makes an effort to be friends, then some of us will reciprocate. But in this case where she is making a strong effort, she probably likes you more than friends. Still, there may be all kinds of social scenarios that keep it in the friend-zone.

[makelemonade1974]

That's what I mean about keeping up appropriate boundaries. If you go out at night to a bar with a guy, he's thinking "she digs me". If you invite him over to watch a movie, he thinks "I'm getting some tonight!" If you go out to lunch once a month, he thinks "Is this a date or not?". I have one female friend whom I know is interested in me romantically, and I pretty much limit my contact with her to phone and email. I don't want to give her the wrong idea. And if he flirts with you, you have to shut it down fast. You can be a stone-cold bitch, can't you?

 

I think one good gauge of whether he is thinking about "more than friends" is how he reacts when you talk about other men. If he's happy when you're dating someone else, then he's probably thinking "friends". If he gets weird or says/implies that the other guy isn't right for you, he wants you for himself.

 

I'm not good with stone-cold bitch, but working on it. Thanks for helping with the "boundaries" thing. He is limited to lunches from now on. Yeah, the huge "he's interested in me" sign was definitely his inability to act detached when I talk about other guys or even talk TO other guys in his presence. Yikes. Dinner / drinks is probably not a good idea. Sucks because men are much better drinking buddies than girls.

[guy777]

Sucks because men are much better drinking buddies than girls.

 

Hey, if you want to be my wingman, it's on!