Perspective from a MM

[jaskiegs]

So, I'm going to try an experiment. I've had a few people respond that it was interesting getting the perspective of a MM on this subforum. This may or may not be useful, but if anyone has any questions about what a MM is thinking, doing, saying, I'll try to respond, with a couple of caveats.

 

I'd like to help others as a karmic payback but this forum is for my own health. If it gets too tough, I'll sign off. Also, as great as LS is, I don't want to become addicted, so I may only answer once a day or less. But I will respond and you can ask anything and say everything. I have no illusions about my behavior so don't worry about me feelings. Finally, I'm only one MM. I may not think the way your ex or current MM does, so take it with a bunch of grains of salt.

 

As for my story, I am in a borderline aromantic marriage with kids under age 13. I met my exAP at work. She is unmarried. We had a long EA before it turned into a PA. We were on again off again for a bit over six years (yikes).

 

In July, I told her we had to be done. I did not go NC but after a couple of days, she did. She then called me when her mom got sick and when she got better, went NC again. It's been three weeks or so of NC. I am committed to NC now.

 

I love her. Yep, I do. I miss her. But I realized that I wasn't strong enough to go from M to divorce and move in with her without figuring myself out. I now know that she's moved on and am OK with that most days (though not all). I also know that she still loves me. I know it's over but I am still having a hard time killing the thought that maybe someday...

 

So that's it. Feel free to fire away and I will be as honest as I can be with the light that God gives me to see.

[lemondrop21]

Thank you so much for posting this, it's great that you're willing to answer questions and yes, there are a lot of OWs here struggling for answers.

 

Your description sounds to me like a "split self affair" although I know some people dispute whether there is such a thing. Do you agree with that assessment or do you feel yours was another type of affair?

 

Second question - did you ever seriously consider leaving your marriage and how far along with the process did you get?

 

One more - what advice would you give APs in general - is it as simple as "cut your losses and run, and he'll find you when/if he divorces?"

 

Thank you in advance for your answers and again, thank you for your willingness to start this thread. I feel for everyone involved in this - your BS, AP and you - as this clearly has been a long, hard road for all of you.

[jwi71]

So, I'm going to try an experiment. I've had a few people respond that it was interesting getting the perspective of a MM on this subforum. This may or may not be useful, but if anyone has any questions about what a MM is thinking, doing, saying, I'll try to respond, with a couple of caveats.

 

I'd like to help others as a karmic payback but this forum is for my own health. If it gets too tough, I'll sign off. Also, as great as LS is, I don't want to become addicted, so I may only answer once a day or less. But I will respond and you can ask anything and say everything. I have no illusions about my behavior so don't worry about me feelings. Finally, I'm only one MM. I may not think the way your ex or current MM does, so take it with a bunch of grains of salt.

 

As for my story, I am in a borderline aromantic marriage with kids under age 13. I met my exAP at work. She is unmarried. We had a long EA before it turned into a PA. We were on again off again for a bit over six years (yikes).

 

In July, I told her we had to be done. I did not go NC but after a couple of days, she did. She then called me when her mom got sick and when she got better, went NC again. It's been three weeks or so of NC. I am committed to NC now.

 

I love her. Yep, I do. I miss her. But I realized that I wasn't strong enough to go from M to divorce and move in with her without figuring myself out. I now know that she's moved on and am OK with that most days (though not all). I also know that she still loves me. I know it's over but I am still having a hard time killing the thought that maybe someday...

 

So that's it. Feel free to fire away and I will be as honest as I can be with the light that God gives me to see.

 

What are you doing to improve your life, M and "situation" in general?

 

What is your goal here? What do you hope to accomplish? Can you identify actions to help you attain such?

[jaskiegs]

Thank you so much for posting this, it's great that you're willing to answer questions and yes, there are a lot of OWs here struggling for answers.

 

Your description sounds to me like a "split self affair" although I know some people dispute whether there is such a thing. Do you agree with that assessment or do you feel yours was another type of affair?

 

Second question - did you ever seriously consider leaving your marriage and how far along with the process did you get?

 

One more - what advice would you give APs in general - is it as simple as "cut your losses and run, and he'll find you when/if he divorces?"

 

Thank you in advance for your answers and again, thank you for your willingness to start this thread. I feel for everyone involved in this - your BS, AP and you - as this clearly has been a long, hard road for all of you.

 

I think split-self is reasonably accurate, although I don't like putting too much into labels because then everyone thinks they know what it means. But, yes, I felt drawn to both "lives."

 

As for my progress, it was pretty screwed up. Until October last year, it was atrocious. And then we went through another break up and I entered therapy. After two weeks, I freaked out and told my wide I was pretty sure I wanted a divorce. I called my ex AP and told her I wanted to get married. We reconciled. I met with an attorney and paid a retainer. Talked to a new condo build about availability (no deposit though) and, um, I bought an engagement ring. One week later, my AP and soon to be (I thought) fiancé went NC on me on advice of her therapist. I finally broke down two weeks after that and demanded she talk to me. She called me on the road and I told her everything and said goodbye and that I returned the ring. She called me back several hours later sobbing.

 

What followed over the next few months is regretful. She threw herself back at me and for some reason, I couldn't let go of the anger. I started to see the push pull thing and decided that we were in a recurring theme. And here we are today. I know... Not an uncommon story. I can talk more about my feelings for the first six months of this year in another post. I think it could be useful for OW.

 

As for my advice, I can only tell you what I think might work. Most As have a low probability of successful conversion. But if you want to have the chance, communication is key as are expectations. I'm not a big believer in deadlines but I am a big believer in steps. I still believe that if she had not gone NC on advice back at the end of last year, we would be close to engaged now (six month waiting period on divorce in my state). But then, when we got back together, neither of us was accountable to the other this year. It's entirely possible that nothing would be different if we had talked about it more but perhaps not. But if you can't keep each other accountable, then NC is the way to go for both sides.

 

Sorry for any typos... On a mobile right now

[Blue73]

First and foremost, Im so sorry for your pain. SO many of us OW's would love for our MM to feel what your feeling and maybe some of our MM feel this way but just dont communicate it. They are scared to let go of the family/children etc.

 

Thank you so much for your thread. Im sure its going to help many of us.

 

My question for you was did you ever struggle with guilt with your wife. Was there a point that she felt you pulling away and tried a little harder at home and you thought, you know what? Maybe my marriage isnt so bad, Im confused about my OW?

[Satu]

Question:

 

What does the word, 'love' mean to you?

[jaskiegs]

What are you doing to improve your life, M and "situation" in general?

 

What is your goal here? What do you hope to accomplish? Can you identify actions to help you attain such?

 

Let me start with my marriage. I am not at all confident that it will last and not necessarily because of my infidelity. I care for my wife and respect her qualities - she is funny, intelligent, a good mother, etc. But we met when we were teenagers (me 19, her 18). We would make good friends but not great mates. But I decided not to give into pessimism. Being in the A, I have been a very poor H (obviously) so I'm going to see what happens when I am a better H. In the A, as I am sure you well know, everything seems amazing with you AP. But I've come to suspect that the best you can hope for over the long term (20, 30, 40 years) is a relationship that is just OK but based on shared history. So I am working on that.

 

You didn't ask, but I've decided not to disclose. THere are arguments for either side but I do not think I am a serial cheater and if I am able to stay in the M, then I don't think disclosure is useful. I could be wrong on this and perhaps I am deluding myself. It is something I am working on in therapy.

 

As for my life, that's too early to answer. There have been times when I've contemplated suicide but I wouldn't do it because I could never hurt my kids that way. So I'll have to say, we'll see. On the plus side, I decided to stop gradual suicide and have lost 40 pounds and become physically healthier.

 

As for my goals on LS, I come here to read the pain in OW's posts so that I remember what I've done. When I have the urge to run over to my ex AP's place and beg her to take me back, I come here and read how stupid the thought is and it gets me through another day.

[jaskiegs]

First and foremost, Im so sorry for your pain. SO many of us OW's would love for our MM to feel what your feeling and maybe some of our MM feel this way but just dont communicate it. They are scared to let go of the family/children etc.

 

Thank you so much for your thread. Im sure its going to help many of us.

 

My question for you was did you ever struggle with guilt with your wife. Was there a point that she felt you pulling away and tried a little harder at home and you thought, you know what? Maybe my marriage isnt so bad, Im confused about my OW?

 

Guilt: I think men are good at deluding themselves about the sex part. I never felt particularly guilty as I told myself that since I wasn't getting it at home (not just a little bit but not at all), getting it elsewhere was OK. But since I have gone NC, I've felt guilty. I never thought I would lack so much integrity and lie as easily as I have. It's not the A that makes me feel guilty, it's the lies and cuckolding.

 

And, yes, as I've pulled away, she has tried harder. She's not a bad person. If she were, it would have made things easier. She tried a lot harder when I told her I wanted a divorce. I don't think that is where the confusion came from with regard to my OW, though. I will talk about the last six months more in the thread for those interested in how a guy goes from buying an engagement ring for his OW to saying goodbye. It's not full resolved in my head but I will try to dedicate some time to writing about it if people are interested.

[lemondrop21]

Guilt: I think men are good at deluding themselves about the sex part. I never felt particularly guilty as I told myself that since I wasn't getting it at home (not just a little bit but not at all), getting it elsewhere was OK. But since I have gone NC, I've felt guilty. I never thought I would lack so much integrity and lie as easily as I have. It's not the A that makes me feel guilty, it's the lies and cuckolding.

 

And, yes, as I've pulled away, she has tried harder. She's not a bad person. If she were, it would have made things easier. She tried a lot harder when I told her I wanted a divorce. I don't think that is where the confusion came from with regard to my OW, though. I will talk about the last six months more in the thread for those interested in how a guy goes from buying an engagement ring for his OW to saying goodbye. It's not full resolved in my head but I will try to dedicate some time to writing about it if people are interested.

 

I'd definitely be interested in hearing more about your thoughts towards the OW when you have the time.

[whatatangledweb]

But I've come to suspect that the best you can hope for over the long term (20, 30, 40 years) is a relationship that is just OK but based on shared history. So I am working on that.

 

I have been married twenty four years and our marriage is better than ok. We have a good marriage. We do things together and enjoy being together. We love each other and we have a very active sex life. An OK marriage is to me not a good reason to stay together. You can work together to make it a good one. I know other people who have along marriage like ours that is good and I know others that are staying together while not happy, because of their history and being used to it. So it really depends on the people.

[jaskiegs]

Question:

 

What does the word, 'love' mean to you?

 

Thank you for the question, Satu. To be specific, I am going to try to define the emotion, love, rather than the word. As, specifically, romantic love, as opposed to self-love, love for your children, or the love of humanity or God.

 

To me, it could be described chemically, as the hormones that are pumped into your brain when you think of the person with whom you've made a romantic connection, chemicals that are not unlike heroin in that they often drive your life's decisions. It could be described biologically in that the emotions are what drives us to be together, stay together, and thereby more successfully help the next generation (as well as reconcile when we have disagreements). It could be poetic, such as when it is described as a beacon to guide a wayward heart. It could be all of those and more.

 

But, to me, romantic love - and perhaps all others as well - is when you allow yourself to be vulnerable, to open yourself to another person completely, knowing that they have the power to destroy you with one word, but you do so anyway because it is the only way you can be closer to that person. And, if you're lucky, that person does the same.

 

And that is why love scares the hell out of me.

[jaskiegs]

I have been married twenty four years and our marriage is better than ok. We have a good marriage. We do things together and enjoy being together. We love each other and we have a very active sex life. An OK marriage is to me not a good reason to stay together. You can work together to make it a good one. I know other people who have along marriage like ours that is good and I know others that are staying together while not happy, because of their history and being used to it. So it really depends on the people.

 

I am glad you shared that. It's very nice to know. I think I thought that was possible once. I don't know that I do believe it's possibly any longer for me, but there is some joy in knowing that even if I don't experience it, others do. Although there are days when I do not feel this, I hope my ex OW experiences it as well.

 

And the guilt comes from knowing that my W likely doesn't get that. I've told her she'd be better off without me (even before the the A) but she doesn't seem to believe me.

[Goodbye]

Why don't you be honest with your wife about what you've been up to and see if you still have an authentically "just ok" marriage. Your marriage is "ok" with her being kept in the dark and stepping up her game after you told her you wanted a divorce. Why did you even tell her you wanted a divorce? How is your sex life now?

[Lovelife89]

From a MM's perspective, is it better for a woman to stay friends with a man while he figures his situation out? Or is it better for that woman to walk away and leave him to it?

 

I read a lot on here that walking away is the best choice because it forces them to make a decision but based on you being a MM, do they see it that way? Or do they see you as giving up on them?

 

Thanks for starting this thread.

[purplesorrow]

I am glad you shared that. It's very nice to know. I think I thought that was possible once. I don't know that I do believe it's possibly any longer for me, but there is some joy in knowing that even if I don't experience it, others do. Although there are days when I do not feel this, I hope my ex OW experiences it as well.

 

And the guilt comes from knowing that my W likely doesn't get that. I've told her she'd be better off without me (even before the the A) but she doesn't seem to believe me.

 

She'll believe it after you tell what you've done and who she's really married to.

[jaskiegs]

Why don't you be honest with your wife about what you've been up to and see if you still have an authentically "just ok" marriage.

 

It's a valid question. For the time being, I don't see the benefit of telling her. It won't get rid of my guilt and it won't help her, at least not in the short term. Perhaps it would help her in the long term getting away from me. That is something I have considered and have not fully decided either way yet. And, to be clear, our marriage has the capacity to be just OK. For the last decade it was a lot less than OK. While there was some good times, there was very little affection and sex occurred every few months. In MC, she indicated that she thought I was a pervert (I'm not) and it made me even more self-conscious.

 

Why did you even tell her you wanted a divorce? How is your sex life now?

 

At the time, because I wanted to leave my M for my AP. Desperately. And because I was tired of the duplicity. I know that it is duplicitous to be tired of the duplicity of not sharing the info about the A. I'm not claiming to be an evolved human being, just trying to share what happened, both in my life and in my effed up brain.

 

As for the sex, we aren't having it, yet. I think we will and she shoes increased interest for now, but I'm not ready.

[jaskiegs]

From a MM's perspective, is it better for a woman to stay friends with a man while he figures his situation out? Or is it better for that woman to walk away and leave him to it?

 

I read a lot on here that walking away is the best choice because it forces them to make a decision but based on you being a MM, do they see it that way? Or do they see you as giving up on them?

 

Thanks for starting this thread.

 

OK, so here's my thought. This is from the perspective of what I believe would have worked best for me, as far as my AP getting me to leave my marriage for her.

 

If you have tried everything and hate the relationship and what it does to you (and there are a ton of reasons why you should), the NC is the way to go. Heal yourself and prepare for the next relationship.

 

If you truly want him to leave his wife, you have to walk a fine line. Going NC doesn't work, or at least not for me. The closest I came to leaving was when we communicated, she dated others, and we set expectations and kept each other accountable. It only lasted a week or two before she went NC again on advice of her therapist, so there is a good chance that it wouldn't have worked. Having said that, in those two weeks, I broached divorce with my wife, met and attorney, bought a ring (what a weird thing), and did some other stuff too.

 

In retrospect, I should have suggested that we meet with her therapist together so that he therapist could counsel her better. I also think we should have told her friends and family so that she didn't have to keep the secret as a burden. But, having said that, As have a VERY low conversion ratio so perhaps none of that would have worked.

[purplesorrow]

Why do you need an outside person playing games to leave your marriage? You should leave because you want to and you would.

[Goodbye]

OK, so here's my thought. This is from the perspective of what I believe would have worked best for me, as far as my AP getting me to leave my marriage for her.

 

If you have tried everything and hate the relationship and what it does to you (and there are a ton of reasons why you should), the NC is the way to go. Heal yourself and prepare for the next relationship.

 

If you truly want him to leave his wife, you have to walk a fine line. Going NC doesn't work, or at least not for me. The closest I came to leaving was when we communicated, she dated others, and we set expectations and kept each other accountable. It only lasted a week or two before she went NC again on advice of her therapist, so there is a good chance that it wouldn't have worked. Having said that, in those two weeks, I broached divorce with my wife, met and attorney, bought a ring (what a weird thing), and did some other stuff too.

 

In retrospect, I should have suggested that we meet with her therapist together so that he therapist could counsel her better. I also think we should have told her friends and family so that she didn't have to keep the secret as a burden. But, having said that, As have a VERY low conversion ratio so perhaps none of that would have worked.

 

You met with an attorney, bought a ring and "some other stuff too?" What other stuff...hid your money so when your W found out what the reason was behind the divorce she couldn't site fault? Perhaps I am a bitter OW, but it sounds like you wanted the OW to dance some sort of balancing act dance for you to get it "just right enough" for you to leave your sham marriage. Pathetic.

[jaskiegs]

Why do you need an outside person playing games to leave your marriage? You should leave because you want to and you would.

 

I don't need the outside person as this was not an "exit affair." There is nothing that you said that I disagree with. If I leave my marriage - and today it is an if - it will be on my own terms due to reasons within myself. That is why I am on LS, because I am trying to cope with everything that has occurred and I have done.

[purplesorrow]

I don't need the outside person as this was not an "exit affair." There is nothing that you said that I disagree with. If I leave my marriage - and today it is an if - it will be on my own terms due to reasons within myself. That is why I am on LS, because I am trying to cope with everything that has occurred and I have done.

 

You implied that had your ow continued what she was doing, it would have worked. You would have left.

[jaskiegs]

You met with an attorney, bought a ring and "some other stuff too?" What other stuff...hid your money so when your W found out what the reason was behind the divorce she couldn't site fault? Perhaps I am a bitter OW, but it sounds like you wanted the OW to dance some sort of balancing act dance for you to get it "just right enough" for you to leave your sham marriage. Pathetic.

 

I am pathetic. At no time have I claimed to be an evolved human being. And, yes, there was some imaginary line that I held to for a period of time. Having said that, there are at least two people involved in an A. If you want to make it through an A as opposed to past an A, I do believe that it takes two people trying to find that "just right enough" line. That is my belief but I do not ask you to accept it. Perhaps most MM lie to their AP and to themselves, convincing everyone involved that if she does just the right thing, he'll leave the M. And perhaps most MM a manipulative jerks. I never claimed to be anything but that. However, there's also a chance that it isn't quite so black and white. To me, As seem quite gray.

 

As to the other things, I didn't hide money, nor would I. If I leave my marriage, I am not leaving my family, regardless of the reasons. The other things included things like buying a fishing reel because my AP's best-friend's husband was into fishing and I wanted to integrate myself into my AP's future life. It also included leasing a higher mileage car because I anticipated more miles. But I considered those things minutiae.

 

However, I am not trying to convince anyone of my sainthood or even that I am anything other than someone who fell in love with someone who was not my wife and lacked the strength and courage to do any of the many things I should have done.

[jaskiegs]

You implied that had your ow continued what she was doing, it would have worked. You would have left.

 

To be clear, then, if things had gone down the path that we were on, I believe that I would have left. But I am not so naive as to believe 100% that there wouldn't have been another obstacle. Looking back on it, it doesn't feel like there would have been but if we had continued down that path, it may have led to right where I am today.

 

I am not trying to give false hope to OW. It is incredibly unlikely that he will leave his M. If he were going to do it, it would most likely be within the first 30 days. But that doesn't mean that it CAN'T happen.

[lemondrop21]

To be clear, then, if things had gone down the path that we were on, I believe that I would have left. But I am not so naive as to believe 100% that there wouldn't have been another obstacle. Looking back on it, it doesn't feel like there would have been but if we had continued down that path, it may have led to right where I am today.

 

I am not trying to give false hope to OW. It is incredibly unlikely that he will leave his M. If he were going to do it, it would most likely be within the first 30 days. But that doesn't mean that it CAN'T happen.

 

If it happens in the first 30 days, doesn't that make it an Exit-type affair as they call it, and not really about the AP at all? In this case, wouldn't the MM probably not end up with the AP?

[jaskiegs]

If it happens in the first 30 days, doesn't that make it an Exit-type affair as they call it, and not really about the AP at all? In this case, wouldn't the MM probably not end up with the AP?

 

Yeah, you're probably right. It's important for me to state that I am not relationship doctor (obviously!) so I may be wrong about everything, especially given the personal nature of the topic, but I do know that my brother in law left my sister very quickly and is now married, so sometimes that happens.

 

I guess the point is, though, that a multi-year A that isn't (in the mind of the OW) about sex alone has a very low likelihood of success. Basically approaching zero. But to have a chance, I believe it depends on realistic goals, expectations, and accountability, along with a combination of pain (periods of LC) and pleasure (not going completely dark and trying to be somewhat supportive). Perhaps that is naive on my part...it probably is.

 

I believe that NC is for the person to heal and move on. Some people believe that NC can lead to long-term reconciliation...I don't.