Can't sleep tonight...

[AnotherRound]

And journaling didn't help, instead it got me thinking even more.

 

I was actually going through my journal trying to find a specific thing that happened (my bff and I were trying to remember when something actually happened while talking earlier today) - and I came across some of my journals from during my relationship with exMM.

 

I'm wondering how many of you others journal - and if you do, when you read them back - what is that you see in those entries?

 

For instance - I found an entry about a convo he and I had about something pretty heavy - and looking back, I still feel exactly the same way. I hear a lot of talk on here about the fog and the rose colored glasses - but when I read those entries, there is nothing irrational about them - they are solid thoughts and feelings that would still hold true today.

 

Is it possible to be in that fog for 10 years? I mean - that seems like such a stretch to me - that two people would be able to delude themselves for that long, that consistently. I'm not saying exMM and I didn't have our honeymoon stage - what relationship doesn't? But after that stage - there was no fog lifted - it was just a normal relationship where the newness wears off and comfortableness replaces it.

 

What about you all? The same thing, or was your experience different? Do you think this has anything to do with the actual MM in the situation? I mean, the level of his investment (no idea how to measure that really) maybe affecting the longevity of the relationship? Or - do you think that it's about people just either clicking or not clicking - having what it takes to make it the long haul past that initial honeymoon stage?

[cocorico]

And journaling didn't help, instead it got me thinking even more.

 

I was actually going through my journal trying to find a specific thing that happened (my bff and I were trying to remember when something actually happened while talking earlier today) - and I came across some of my journals from during my relationship with exMM.

 

I'm wondering how many of you others journal - and if you do, when you read them back - what is that you see in those entries?

 

For instance - I found an entry about a convo he and I had about something pretty heavy - and looking back, I still feel exactly the same way. I hear a lot of talk on here about the fog and the rose colored glasses - but when I read those entries, there is nothing irrational about them - they are solid thoughts and feelings that would still hold true today.

 

Is it possible to be in that fog for 10 years? I mean - that seems like such a stretch to me - that two people would be able to delude themselves for that long, that consistently. I'm not saying exMM and I didn't have our honeymoon stage - what relationship doesn't? But after that stage - there was no fog lifted - it was just a normal relationship where the newness wears off and comfortableness replaces it.

 

What about you all? The same thing, or was your experience different? Do you think this has anything to do with the actual MM in the situation? I mean, the level of his investment (no idea how to measure that really) maybe affecting the longevity of the relationship? Or - do you think that it's about people just either clicking or not clicking - having what it takes to make it the long haul past that initial honeymoon stage?

 

I didn't have a honeymoon stage - if anything, the reverse - and while I didn't keep a journal I do have an archive of emails (to and from him, and about him to and from others), and other writing. Because I am busy tidying up a piece for publication that draws on some of that, I have been reading through a lot of that recently, reconnecting with the emotional responses I'm representing in my published work, and of course we also speak about it a fair amount.

 

And my response is very similar to yours. What "fog"? What I see in my records is a deep-seated scepticism gradually allowing itself to be refuted by an overwhelming body of evidence, and a dawning recognition and finally a naming of those long-denied and disputed positives. Like any growing friendship, the trajectory has been upward (like the right had side of a parabola, moving upward from the vortex).

[anne1707]

"Fog" is just a term used by BSs to disqualify the emotions in an EMR. An easy way out if you will to not have to acknowledge that the EMR is a relationship like any other.

 

Whilst some BS may use it in that way, others use it in the way I feel it applied to me. That the "fog" clouds the thinking, the ability to really see beyond the selfish, sh*tty behaviour of having an affair and the pain that can cause others.

 

 

 

The tendency to be more authentic in the beginning stages of an EMR because you, the MP, have nothing to lose since you want more than you already have in the marriage, leads to more authenticity than is usual.

Utter tosh IMO! The MP has everything to lose. To suggest the WS is more authentic is really just an attempt to romanticise and make the affair sound as if it is more "special". There are plenty of OW on this site who were lied to by their MM. That does not sound very authentic to me. I know that I lied (mostly by omission) to the exOM throughout the affair. I only let him know facts when I wanted him to know. It was all on my terms. And just as I doubt Coco is a one-off, I doubt I am. Edited April 17, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Got it]

Whilst some BS may use it in that way, others use it in the way I feel it applied to me. That the "fog" clouds the thinking, the ability to really see beyond the selfish, sh*tty behaviour of having an affair and the pain that can cause others.

 

 

Utter tosh IMO! The MP has everything to lose. To suggest the WS is more authentic is really just an attempt to romanticise and make the affair sound as if it is more "special". There are plenty of OW on this site who were lied to by their MM. That does not sound very authentic to me. I know that I lied (mostly by omission) to the exOM throughout the affair. I only let him know facts when I wanted him to know. It was all on my terms. And just as I doubt Coco is a one-off, I doubt I am.

 

 

I was a WS, I was more authentic in the affair than in my marriage. Different dynamic, different history, and different person. I had nothing to lose especially in the beginning so I was consciously trying on being fully me for size. That was something that I could not do/be in my marriage.

Edited April 17, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Owl]

My thought, AR, is that not everyone does experience the "fog".

 

Perhaps your feelings for xMM haven't changed over the years, as they do for many others. Perhaps you do indeed still feel the same way about your affair now that you did then. Possibly you were more aware intellectually of the situation, and of your own emotional involvement, and so weren't swept up in the fog.

 

Most people aren't as aware of their feelings when they're caught up in them. They know they're there, but they don't spend any effort understanding them, they just experience them as they're happening.

 

And then they're massively suprised later when they've find that they feel differently.

 

I'd also suggest that part of the "difference"...the reason you've never felt that "fog" is because there was no emotionally traumatic ending to your relationship with him. That "fog" seems more common when one partner ends the relationship in an abrupt fashion...and the person who late "sees" the fog is the one who went through the emotional turmoil. (Doesn't really matter who ended the relationship...it's the abrupt ending I'm referring to).

 

<content about other members redacted>

 

The last group of folks that often don't seem to experience "fog" are ones that simply don't invest emotionally as deep into the affair as others. There's no emotional "fog" if there are simply less strong emotions involved. If you don't care as much, it doesn't matter as much.

 

That's my thought on it.

 

As far as the concept of "fog" being a BS "prop" used to make themselves feel better....I'd agree that "tosh" was a pretty accurate word for that.

Edited April 17, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[William]

Is it possible to be in that fog for 10 years? I mean - that seems like such a stretch to me - that two people would be able to delude themselves for that long, that consistently. I'm not saying exMM and I didn't have our honeymoon stage - what relationship doesn't? But after that stage - there was no fog lifted - it was just a normal relationship where the newness wears off and comfortableness replaces it.

 

What about you all? The same thing, or was your experience different?

 

Thank you in advance for adhering to the topic.

[Owl]

To correct my post previously...I suspect that one other group of people who don't see "the fog" are those that are still currently involved in an affair relationship, or with their affair partner.

 

There was no end to the relationship...so no chance for the fog to clear.

 

So the fog is still very much there, but they're not able to see it...that "can't see the forest for the trees".

Edited April 17, 2013 by Owl

[Owl]

I'd suggest that it's not so much "the traumatic ending" as how some people handle traumatic endings. IMO this is when "the fog" starts, the denial. My sister does this. Every time she is in a relationship her partner is The Best Man Ever. Every time it's over he's The Devil Incarnated. It's her way of processing the end of the relationship, goes hand in hand with her need to always be the victim.

 

I, on the other hand, am always content afterwards with my choice of being in the relationship however it turned out and continue to hold the same view of my ex as I've had all along. I have no need to rewrite history.

 

It's different personalities, different ways of handling life and relationships.

 

Since you mention your own view on the "fog" and why you don't see it, I'm hoping I'm not in violation for responding directly to this.

 

FMIH, I don't believe you rewrite relationship history because you're still currently in the fog...you're rewriting the relationship PRESENT.

 

You view your current situation and relationship MUCH, MUCH differntly than those around you do...which is precisely what that "fog" refers to.

 

The fog is there....today, right now. You don't see it because it's been present for a very long time.

 

Others, looking in from the outside...see the foggy thinking that was brought up in this thread.

[cocorico]

My experience exactly.

 

And mine, minus the "honeymoon" stage.

 

No fog.

 

But I'd don't do altered states. I am very reality focused. Deeply sceptical, slow to trust, and constant in my views. I check things out very thoroughly before I form a view, and when I form one, it tends to be supported by new data since it was formed on the basis of a wealth of data in the first place. I was taught as an undergraduate that you leave the field at the point when data is merely repetitious, and provides no new insights, and it's at that point that I form my views, when the data is all telling me the same thing, and the jury is in. No need for fog if you do your research properly.

[Owl]

And who are these others? The BSs on LS?

 

I have noone in real life saying such a thing.

 

As I said, I have a history of being very clear sighted of my relationships. So clear sighted I need not rewrite my history after my relationships end.

 

Not just the BS's on LS, but many of the fOW and others as well.

 

On this, we'll simply have to agree to disagree, as we do on many things.

[cocorico]

To correct my post previously...I suspect that one other group of people who don't see "the fog" are those that are still currently involved in an affair relationship, or with their affair partner.

 

There was no end to the relationship...so no chance for the fog to clear.

 

So the fog is still very much there, but they're not able to see it...that "can't see the forest for the trees".

 

Or there was no fog on the first place aside from that clouding the views of those who project it.

[Praying4Peace]

I always saw 'fog' as not the feelings- those are as real as any other time you fell in love and just as wonderful- but as the ability to not see the consequences of those feelings.

 

The thought that you can be together and no one elses reactions will matter to your happiness. The thought that love is enough and everything will work out when you can kind of see (bc fog is still a bit transparent) that it won't work out and not because you don't have feelings...but bc the fallout is way worse than anything you dared imagine.

 

The fog allows you to forget that you are married and made a promise to someone else. At least in my case.

 

No Contact is what allows you to detach. That's just distance and time, not the lifting of feelings. The feelings are there in a very intense emotional connection (and all affairs are NOT like that)- hence strict No Contact. I saw my exAP and in a 1 second glance it was like no time had passed. This is over 3 months out.

[Owl]

Come on, you're still only speaking of posters on LS. Posters who are viewing my relationship through a filter of their own. I'm living it.

 

Or...the others in your life either share your same viewpoints...or don't tell you their honest opinions.

 

As I stated...I know you're not going to agree with my viewpoint, and I don't agree with yours.

[Owl]

Is "the fog" a scientifically established term? Used in peer reviewed papers? Or is it merely terminology used on infidelity sites and among pro-marriage counselors?

 

Are the only useful, or accurate terms those used in scientifically established, peer reviewed papers?

 

If so...there's no value in places like LS.

 

Why are we here again?

[Owl]

I presume that is a no then. "The fog" is a term made up by pro-marriage people just like I thought.

 

Are the only useful, or accurate terms those used in scientifically established, peer reviewed papers?

 

If so...there's no value in places like LS.

 

Why are we here again?

 

I assume that's a no then. You only accept phrases and terms that are used on scientific, peer reviewed articles.

 

I await the bibliography addendums to your future posts where you illustrate the sources of your terms, views, and opinions.

[Owl]

I agree with this ^^^^^^. You wonder how they get through life.

 

Agreed! Things that make you say...hmmmm.

[Bittersweetie]

Looking back, I don't see what I went through as a "fog" but more of a phase of intense rationalization and justification. Everything would be ok because I cared about him and he (I thought) cared about me. We were made for each other, etc etc, therefore I rationalized and justified all of my behavior and feelings. Now, I see my behaviors for what they were: selfish and hurtful and not real. I moved out of the rationalization and justification phase.

 

In my opinion, maybe, years later, others will still feel their behavior was justified; so they won't feel differently about what they did. Thus, no "fog" or "emerging" from it. And that may just be a result of their own life experiences...everyone is different.

[anne1707]

"'Fog is just a term used by BSs to disqualify the emotions in an EMR. An easy way out if you will to not have to acknowledge that the EMR is a relationship like any other."

 

And your peer reviewed research supporting this statement of yours is where exactly?

[Owl]

And your peer reviewed research supporting this statement of yours is where exactly?

 

I'd be interested in this as well.

[Owl]

Thank you for using established terminology. I can't understand the need to use special terminology except to discard people's experiences.

 

Yes, sometimes in a relationship we will use rationalization and justification. Some do and some don't. That is true of both regular relationships and EMRs.

 

And I agree with this.

 

Some go through that rationalization and justification, and later see that this is what they were doing.

 

Some don't.

 

And some don't use rationalization or justification...their mindset or moral compass doesn't require it.

[Owl]

Exactly. .

 

Whodathunkit?

 

We agreed!?!?!

[AnotherRound]

Is it possible to be in that fog for 10 years?

 

Fog is just a shorthand for lies, justifications, rationalizations people in A tell themselves. Who coined it I dont know....I suspect marital counselors who heard the same stories over and over.

 

But, yes people can lie to themselves for a long time about any number of things, why would an A be any different.

 

Hmmm... I guess this is hard for me to understand bc I just don't lie to myself. I don't really know why anyone does that???? I'm a realist - I try to see things as they are, not as I want them to be. I accept things that are hard to accept, bc I have no other choice, but also because why would I fight things that I can't control?

 

I don't buy that most people participating in an affair "lie to themselves". I don't see it - I don't see the statistical proof of it. Do some? Maybe - but I would say no more than any other relationships. Most people in marriage lie to themselves - they are in a fog. I mean- it doesn't make sense to me to say that one relationship is a fog and the other is real. ????? Why? Because they have a legal contract? I mean - what's the difference?

 

Relationships are relationships - and most people aren't going to participate in something they find false. And if they honestly are lying to themselves to convince themselves that it is not false when it really is - well, that just sounds like reaching to me. Who does that?

 

I agree with the other posters that people who look back on a failed relationship and say "I was in a fog" or "I was lying to myself" that they are using a coping mechanism to self soothe. They are trying to make themselves feel better that it didn't work out by minimizing the relationship. Or, in the case of a WS - minimizing the affair to make the BS feel better, more secure, less threatened - or themselves, so that they can find contentment in where they are. By denying the other relationship, it allows them to be present in the current relationship without resentment, imo.

[anne1707]

I don't buy that most people participating in an affair "lie to themselves".

I don't see it - I don't see the statistical proof of it. Do some? Maybe - but I would say no more than any other relationships. Most people in marriage lie to themselves - they are in a fog. I mean- it doesn't make sense to me to say that one relationship is a fog and the other is real. ????? Why? Because they have a legal contract? I mean - what's the difference?

 

Can you please explain your reasoning and evidence for saying the bolded. You object to people saying that about affairs yet you will then go ahead and make such an accusation yourself.

 

 

 

I agree with the other posters that people who look back on a failed relationship and say "I was in a fog" or "I was lying to myself" that they are using a coping mechanism to self soothe. They are trying to make themselves feel better that it didn't work out by minimizing the relationship. Or, in the case of a WS - minimizing the affair to make the BS feel better, more secure, less threatened - or themselves, so that they can find contentment in where they are. By denying the other relationship, it allows them to be present in the current relationship without resentment, imo.

 

It seems to me that a few here are not "getting" what I and others mean by "fog" (and yes, there will be different definitions). I was in the "fog". That does mean I belittle the emotions I felt. It does not mean that they were not genuine or real. It does not mean I was lying to myself. It does not mean I have minimised the affair in any way whatsoever. To suggest that I would say such a thing to make my H feel better is just insulting to his and my intelligence really.

 

The "fog" meant that I basically chose not to see the consequences of what I was doing. I prioritised myself over others. I was not lying to myself. I was lying to people I cared about. I allowed myself not to see what I was doing because that made life easier for me.

[AnotherRound]

Can you please explain your reasoning and evidence for saying the bolded. You object to people saying that about affairs yet you will then go ahead and make such an accusation yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

It seems to me that a few here are not "getting" what I and others mean by "fog" (and yes, there will be different definitions). I was in the "fog". That does mean I belittle the emotions I felt. It does not mean that they were not genuine or real. It does not mean I was lying to myself. It does not mean I have minimised the affair in any way whatsoever. To suggest that I would say such a thing to make my H feel better is just insulting to his and my intelligence really.

 

The "fog" meant that I basically chose not to see the consequences of what I was doing. I prioritised myself over others. I was not lying to myself. I was lying to people I cared about. I allowed myself not to see what I was doing because that made life easier for me.

 

The bolded was just me trying the other side on for size - it didn't strike me as any more realistic than saying it about affairs.

 

Okay - that clears it up. You were not allowing yourself to see the consequences of your actions. Now I get it - I just don't do that in my life. I ALWAYS have as many scenarios worked out in my head as possible - and obviously, can't prepare for them all - but I never go into anything blindly. I do diligent research - whether it be information or researching my emotions, my values, my morals - those are ALWAYS considered in all that I do - even when deciding about relationships.

 

So, I didn't experience the fog. Never have had that experience. I go in with eyes wide open and ready to take any medicine that may be a result of my actions. I knew perfectly well that there could be consequences from participating in an affair and had a pretty decent idea as to what those possibilities were. I wasn't afraid - so I proceeded. I was never blindsided - nor ignorant of the effects of what I was doing and how it may affect me or anyone else involved.

 

The difference is - I guess - that all parties were in the know, so we were all making our choices and accepting our consequences.

[Got it]

Can you please explain your reasoning and evidence for saying the bolded. You object to people saying that about affairs yet you will then go ahead and make such an accusation yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

It seems to me that a few here are not "getting" what I and others mean by "fog" (and yes, there will be different definitions). I was in the "fog". That does mean I belittle the emotions I felt. It does not mean that they were not genuine or real. It does not mean I was lying to myself. It does not mean I have minimised the affair in any way whatsoever. To suggest that I would say such a thing to make my H feel better is just insulting to his and my intelligence really.

 

The "fog" meant that I basically chose not to see the consequences of what I was doing. I prioritised myself over others. I was not lying to myself. I was lying to people I cared about. I allowed myself not to see what I was doing because that made life easier for me.

 

And maybe it is an individualistic approach. I am baffled at the idea of not understanding the consequences. I was very aware of what I was doing and the choices I was making. But I have no interest in not owning 100% of what I have done down to sneezing in the wrong direction.

 

I understood what I was doing, I knew it before going into it, when I was in it and the consequences to it. While the heady feelings of attraction can be "foggy" feeling, my actions and my decisions for my actions were not. I couldn't imagine doing things in life and not really understanding why one is doing something and whether or not they thought it through. Seems to be like bouncing around in a pinball machine.