In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

[finna]

Met my AP at work two years ago; we began traveling for work together ten months ago and became very good friends; six months ago began affair. I immediately went home and split with my SO (it had been a long time coming and I still feel good about the split). My MM said he didn’t know how things would go for him but wanted to keep seeing me while he figured it out. Even though he lives 5000+ miles away since January we have spent 50+ nights together on work trips. It has been amazing of course.

 

Two months ago he told me he had made his decision and would file for divorce in June when his wife was done with school as she would have a job waiting for her and could be more independent / less alimony etc. I agreed to be patient and wait for that. We continued to discuss and make plans for our future nearly all the time.

 

Six weeks ago we got notice that due to budget restrictions our travel opportunities for the rest of 2019 would be severely limited. I began to get scared and nervous that I would not get to see AP much and began to add more pressure to legitimizing our relationship. He continued to agree - at first.

 

Three weeks ago he called me to break things off, saying he loved me and wanted me to be in his life but he needed to focus on his family (his wife is truly mentally unstable and manipulative and he is afraid/guilty she will do something crazy as well as not be able to help care for their five year old son). At a follow up conversation he said he got stressed and scared about parts of our relationship and wanted life to be less complicated and to try to be happy with his SO in order to make his son happy and not disappoint people (he had been in unhappy situation for many years which he talked to me and another good friend a lot about before we ever got together).

 

At the time of breakup I went NC other than one necessary work email. He lasted 2.5 days before he texted me and we spent many hours texting over the next few days- I did not initiate any communication but would respond to him. Other than the one relationship discussion all communication was either sending funny memes (some sexual) or regular chitchat - nothing related to relationship.

 

I have been scheduled to visit his country for a work trip in June- where we would at the very least see each other a couple of times in the office, but not necessarily more than that. Two weeks ago he made the suggestion that we also fly out to visit several other sites together - a legitimate but not absolutely necessary business need, and that we could “sneak away for a night” to visit a hotel that had been on our bucket list.

 

In the meantime our texting became non-platonic; things like him looking a to buy a new computer monitor and saying he wanted to look at pictures of me on it, etc. However no mention was made of any status change in relationship. He called me twice to firm up travel plans and ended the second conversation with “take care babe - love you” (first call ended with a dropped connection). He continued texting every day although still did not refer to the relationship and conversation was more general.

 

When I arrived a week ago he gave me a long hug although no kissing or any comments referring to us. We spent the first day together frequently brushing hands and touching, and within a couple of hours he was holding my hand and kissing me. We talked a bit and agreed to “make the most of our time” and spent the night together. He was still conflicted stating he wants to be with me but wants to be with his family as well. One moment he seems completely into me, and the next like his heart is not really in it.

 

Two days ago marked the end of our five days together... he is with his family this weekend. We ended up staying together every night, although “just” cuddled up in bed the last night after a very late night at the pub. I don’t know what to think- he held my hand and we had a great time everywhere we went- often stealing kisses and touches. Even on the flight to our next destination he had his arm around me or a hand on my leg- I cuddled up with my head on his chest for a nap on the flight and he held me close with his face in my hair. He kissed me goodbye before leaving to meet his family.

 

However while we were taking a long walk back to the hotel from the pub he briefly shared that his wife was texting him all kinds of bull****- telling him he was being ugly and disgusting (she doesn’t know about us and didn’t even know I was there). He was feeling really bad about that sort of treatment but didn’t want to talk about it.

 

When I thanked him for a wonderful week he said that it was fun but the situation was making his life miserable- he wants to make everyone happy but can’t. I shared my view that we can’t “make” anyone else happy and he said he disagreed. He also said I had a ****ed up mindset for wanting him. Neither of these things did he want to talk about further right then, stating something about depending on what happens this coming week he will let me “know one way or another”. I didn’t push him on any of this because a lot of beer had been drunk at that point.

 

On the other hand he was willing to make a date for October (during another biz trip) for a restaurant that books up far in advance, and voluntarily stated he was sorry he did not “refresh” his T-shirt for me this time (I keep one of his shirts with me when we are apart- he tries to wear it once each time we are together so that it smells like him, etc.) and said he would next week.

 

To me he seems very stressed out and conflicted. Not sure what I can/should do other than to voice my support and give him some space especially when he is with family. This is definitely the lowest I have ever seen him.

 

Long story short - I am confused as hell. This man is the love of my life, and I have always - even before we got together - had an unshakable feeling that we will end up together (yes I know the statistics). While sad and stressed about the situation, deep down I still feel peaceful that things are going to work out even if it takes some time- and I know much has to be his choice and timeline.

 

I am not sure whether I’m just being hopeful or whether it is true intuition (it has always felt like true intuition). I know he is going through a lot of conflicting emotions right now and needs to work that out.

 

Any thoughts on this situation are appreciated - I know I can eventually be happy without him if necessary - but I’d much rather be with him.

 

I will see him again in a day or two for work meetings and then next weekend we will drive to our next business destination together where we will have several days before his family joins him (it is his anniversary in the middle of the week and his wife was adamant that she be with him even though he will be consumed with business meetings all day and some evenings - original plan was that the family would not come until the weekend). Regardless we will have some time to talk about things and I am trying to think about what I want to say, what options I want to give, what boundaries to set going forward, etc. We will be together again on business for nearly three weeks in July and another 2-3 weeks in August.

[somanymistakes]

He also said I had a ****ed up mindset for wanting him.

 

Don't you love how he pushes the blame for it onto YOU, while he gets everything that he wants - staying in his marriage PLUS funtimes with you?

 

Honestly that's the most distressing thing out of your post, to me. Now, he may have meant it in a self-deprecating way, like "boo hoo i'm so terrible you shouldn't love me" (I make fun of that but I've literally done that sort of thing to people myself ebcause I have self-esteem issues) but it is a thing to look out for with MMs. Some of them are very scornful of their mistresses for having the poor morals to sleep with a married man. Their own morals, of course, aren't important. And sadly a lot of the outside world agrees that it's only the WOMAN who is bad. On other divorce forums when men do end their marriages, they are often told to "dumb the w**** and get a real girlfriend"

 

Right now he's potentially got things great for him. Still married, stable homelife, and a girlfriend on the side who doesn't make too many demands or rock the boat. He may prefer it that way.

 

You say he's the love of your life - but what has he done that's so great for you? Other than, I assume, be really hot.

[finna]

You make some valid points and observations... as far as what he has done for me... we were friends first and have had the opportunity many times to support each other, problem solve, and collaborate with great success in some really crazy business and personal situations - foreign and domestic. We discovered our mutual love for adventure, food, music, history, whisky, architecture, Irish pubs, etc. and have had many amazing times that he made sure happen for me (as I have for him).

 

Once we got together he helped me to completely be myself and relax / allow myself to be vulnerable (in a good way) after many years of being in a relationship where that was not the case. He has shown me a lot of love and has made sure my needs were met as much as he was able in a very complicated situation. I am grateful for many, many aspects of our relationship - all those things add up to my love for him.

 

The comment about my mindset I do find concerning as it is the first time he has mentioned anything like that. I tend to think it is more along the lines of “what do you see in me to love” rather than anything else. He is in an emotionally abusive relationship and is often told what an awful person he is- this is of course why he likes spending time with me because I truly appreciate his good qualities and tell him that often...

 

I hate that our relationship started as an affair - obviously I tried to legitimize my side as soon as possible (within hours). I truly believe he would have done the same within a few weeks if the school thing were not such a huge practical issue- there is no indication for me to believe otherwise. However life and **** has happened along the way and here we are.

Edited June 2, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
quote removed

[DKT3]

We men are everything but complicated. He has told you what he wants but your not listening. He wants to be married and have you on the side, it's in your first post, you wrote but you're not getting it. There is no future relationship outside of what it is now.

[finna]

I hear you. I’ve also heard him say something completely different just a few weeks ago so I’m trying to figure out where this will really settle out. I’m not clear today whether he wants me on the side or not.

 

Once that’s sorted I need to figure out my own response, anywhere from come find me when you are divorced (knowing that may never happen) to yes, we enjoy each other’s company so let’s make the most of it when we are together.

[BaileyB]

This man is the love of my life, and I have always - even before we got together - had an unshakable feeling that we will end up together. Deep down I still feel peaceful that things are going to work out even if it takes some time.

 

Honestly, I’m not sure why your feeling peaceful about things because this is unlikely to have the ending you want.

 

He stays with his wife because he wants to stay with his wife. You have fallen for the “my wife is a terribly unstable person and she’s treats me badly” story... Only because if he told you the truth (that he has no intention of leaving his wife but he wants to continue sleeping with you on business trips), you would not likely have ever been willing to engage in this affair.

 

You sound like a very nice person, not deliberately trying to hurt anyone just a little naive in the way you have become involved with this man. Please consider the advice that your best decision is to walk away from this and find someone who is available to date. Let’s say he does leave his wife and you are together, do you really want to live your life wondering who else he is sleeping with when he goes away for business... No, you deserve a man who is honest, trustworthy, and faithful. This is not your guy. Sorry.

[BaileyB]

I’m not clear today whether he wants me on the side or not.

 

Is that really all you want for your life? Potential side chick? Or, do you want a guy who makes it very clear that he wants you in this life, that he is committed to you? Aren’t you setting your standards pretty low here?

 

Why is it that he gets to decide what happens in YOUR life. Why have you given your power and your ability to determine the future of your own life to a man who cares so little, that you are left wondering if he even wants to see you again or not?

 

Once that’s sorted I need to figure out my own response, anywhere from come find me when you are divorced (knowing that may never happen) to yes, we enjoy each other’s company so let’s make the most of it when we are together.

 

Telling him that he can contact you when/if he is divorced is the better option to wasting your time, hanging onto a dead end relationship. Still, I would suggest that you should walk away now because who really wants a man who you know is capable of lying and cheating on their spouse. Not I.

[finna]

I appreciate your thoughts. To be fair - I have witnessed the emotional abuse and instability - many times there have been horrendous fights and very ugly words - so I know it’s not just a story. They are probably in a classic codependent relationship that he has expressed a desire many times to get out of but may not ever. If he does- it needs to be for him of course.

 

I actually have a sneaking suspicion that she may eventually leave him... not due to infidelity as she suspects but doesn’t “know” - but may eventually grow up a bit and realize the incompatibility and misery isn’t worth it. I’m not counting on that as it could take years, but I wouldn’t be surprised.

[elaine567]

Welcome to the world of extramarital affairs.

This is not the world of single dating where you meet and are highly attracted to a guy with a gf, you ditch your bf, he ditches his gf and you carry on as a legit couple to happy ever after.

 

Here, you promptly ditched your bf, which prompted him to make an effort on his side to maintain credibility. He tells you he is leaving too as that is what people in love do, BUT he is a married man with a son, he doesn't want to leave. He prevaricates, he procrastinates, and he will continue to do so for as long as you are still hanging on in there, waiting for him.

The only way he will leave is if she throws him out and you then may get him by default....or not.

[BaileyB]

I have witnessed the emotional abuse and instability. They are probably in a classic codependent relationship that he has expressed a desire many times to get out of but may not ever.

 

I actually have a sneaking suspicion that she may eventually leave him... I’m not counting on that as it could take years.

 

In this case, you may be right. He may never leave, or it may take years, or he may leave and go back - and how much damage will they do to each other in the meantime?

 

Please don’t waste your life waiting for a man to leave his wife... you deserve so much more than that.

Edited June 2, 2019 by BaileyB

[finna]

Well, if I got to completely determine what happens in my life we would still be on track for him to file for divorce in the next couple of weeks and then start the next phase of our life together as we had been planning for months.

 

I know he still cares about me as he arranged the five days last week for us to be together (which mostly was not about sex) and is still texting every day- and we will see a lot of each other during the next six months for business - likely 10-12 weeks.

 

As far as setting my standards low- I somewhat recently came out of a 20 year relationship, of which the last six years were often miserable. As crazy as it sounds, my involvement with AP helped me to find myself again, learn a lot, and get past a lot of the issues that had been created with my ex. I am grateful for that and really appreciate many aspects of our relationship. At this point I don’t want anyone else - that may mean being single for quite a while which is okay - but I’d much rather be with my friend and lover.

 

 

Is that really all you want for your life? Potential side chick? Or, do you want a guy who makes it very clear that he wants you in this life, that he is committed to you? Aren’t you setting your standards pretty low here?

 

Why is it that he gets to decide what happens in YOUR life. Why have you given your power and your ability to determine the future of your own life to a man who cares so little, that you are left wondering if he even wants to see you again or not?

 

 

 

Telling him that he can contact you when/if he is divorced is the better option to wasting your time, hanging onto a dead end relationship. Still, I would suggest that you should walk away now because who really wants a man who you know is capable of lying and cheating on their spouse. Not I.

[finna]

I was married (15 years + 5 dating) and have a son as well... the stakes were just as high for me. To be clear though- that relationship had run its course and I have no regrets about my divorce. My ex and I are both in a better place and better co-parents to our son.

 

Welcome to the world of extramarital affairs.

This is not the world of single dating where you meet and are highly attracted to a guy with a gf, you ditch your bf, he ditches his gf and you carry on as a legit couple to happy ever after.

 

Here, you promptly ditched your bf, which prompted him to make an effort on his side to maintain credibility. He tells you he is leaving too as that is what people in love do, BUT he is a married man with a son, he doesn't want to leave. He prevaricates, he procrastinates, and he will continue to do so for as long as you are still hanging on in there, waiting for him.

The only way he will leave is if she throws him out and you then may get him by default....or not.

[elaine567]

Same old same old, woman in bad relationship hungry for attention grabs onto MM, she seeing a way out of the mess her life has become, a path to better days ahead, she promptly divorces/splits up thinking the MM will follow her lead... WRONG.

[FMW]

From my own experience and the many stories I've read on this forum, men who cheat on their wife usually enjoy the fantasy of the affair, like to be "in the moment", and like to play act - what you'll see described as "future faking". They do it in part, yes, because it helps them hold on to the extra sex/affection/attention, but also because it's just part of the fantasy for them, they enjoy feeling it in the moment. That's why it feels so real to the OW, that's why we can "feel" the love, see it in their eyes.

 

But that fantasy lives in a compartment in their brain (not their heart) separate from their real life and actions and 99.9% of the time is going to always stay in that compartment.

 

He's always going to have a "reason" why he can't leave. The real one, the one keeping him married, is that's where he wants to be. Sure, he wants you too and will put in a certain amount of effort to keep you around. But you're always going to be the one on the side - the one on the OUTside, you won't get to share his real life day in and day out.

 

Maybe his wife IS awful, but he's choosing to stay with her instead of be free to be with you. That's really all that matters. We never really know any one else's motivations for anything. But again, all that matters is he's NOT leaving her.

 

I hope you get to the point soon where you stop defending his reasons, look out for your own well-being, and stop responding to him. If he leaves her he knows where to find you.

[BaileyB]

So, this really is a classic exit affair for you. You were unhappy in your marriage, and this relationship has given you the hope and the strength to end your marriage.

 

It doesn’t often work the same for men, for a variety of different reasons. Men seem more happy to stay in their marriage, while enjoying the affection of another woman on the side. If a man is going to leave his marriage for another woman, he is usually going to do it fairly quickly.

 

If this relationship is truly unhealthy, it’s possible that he doesn’t know if he’s coming or going. He may actually come and go for a while. If he stays, it’s because he wants to stay.

[finna]

Yes- that is generally the storyline. In my case, I did not leave for him - I left because it was time and this gave me the clarity to do what was right for me. When I went home and split from my ex I had no way of knowing this relationship would be anything other than a ONS. He ended up traveling across the world several weeks later to connect with me - something he did not have to do... and so our longer term relationship began.

 

 

Same old same old, woman in bad relationship hungry for attention grabs onto MM, she seeing a way out of the mess her life has become, a path to better days ahead, she promptly divorces/splits up thinking the MM will follow her lead... WRONG.

[BaileyB]

I would argue that you have essentially given up one unhappy and unhealthy relationship for another.

[finna]

One of the reasons this is so difficult I think is that we have spent so much “real life” time together. Not all of it “at home” but 10+ weeks living together no less. He would call home twice a day to speak with his son, but other than that the time together was all “ours”.

 

 

But that fantasy lives in a compartment in their brain (not their heart) separate from their real life and actions and 99.9% of the time is going to always stay in that compartment.

 

He's always going to have a "reason" why he can't leave. The real one, the one keeping him married, is that's where he wants to be. Sure, he wants you too and will put in a certain amount of effort to keep you around. But you're always going to be the one on the side - the one on the OUTside, you won't get to share his real life day in and day out.

Edited June 2, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
quote edited

[BaileyB]

What does that tell you about a man who can have a “live in” relationship with another woman while he is married? There are stories on this board of women who have lived with, bought homes with, had pets with married men (often separated) who then abruptly decide they don’t actually want to leave their marriage.

 

All that tells you is that he was really enjoying the fantasy... because, you were dating “Bachelor style.” It was pure fantasy for you both. That’s why it’s hard to let go, the fantasy was wonderful and you had really convinced yourself that it could become your reality.

Edited June 2, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[FMW]

I do understand. The first 2 of the 3 years of my relationship with xMM he was living separately from his wife. We spent several nights together every week, many entire weekends, including trips. We cooked dinner and breakfast together, went grocery shopping, golfed, hiked, went to his gigs (he was a musician). We were more "together" than my xH and I had been for much of our marriage.

 

But he still wouldn't end his marriage. Still hasn't, even though he has another OW now who clearly adores him and hangs on his every word and movement.

 

I understand, it's mind blowing to try to wrap your head around it because it's not what YOU would do. That's why so many women hang on for so long, they try to put the situation into their own context and can't accept that he really is choosing to stay in a marriage he claims is so bad.

 

Just as posters here who haven't been in your situation can't understand why you are choosing to stay in the position of OW.

[finna]

Yes - definitely an exit affair for me. I think I mentioned that if the school thing hadn’t been of issue (huge financial consequences) I am reasonably certain he would have quickly acted as well. I’ll never know. But yeah- just trying to get through the ups and downs of figuring out where I’m at versus where his head is... in the past few weeks he has been all over the place.

 

 

So, this really is a classic exit affair for you. You were unhappy in your marriage, and this relationship has given you the hope and the strength to end your marriage.

 

It doesn’t often work the same for men, for a variety of different reasons. Men seem more happy to stay in their marriage, while enjoying the affection of another woman on the side. If a man is going to leave his marriage for another woman, he is usually going to do it fairly quickly.

 

If this relationship is truly unhealthy, it’s possible that he doesn’t know if he’s coming or going. He may actually come and go for a while. If he stays, it’s because he wants to stay.

[finna]

Well this one wasn’t unhappy until about three weeks ago... the unhealthy piece is debatable of course; there have been lots of positives for me but obviously overall the situation is not ideal.

 

 

I would argue that you have essentially given up one unhappy and unhealthy relationship for another.

[BaileyB]

Well this one wasn’t unhappy until about three weeks ago... the unhealthy piece is debatable of course; there have been lots of positives for me but obviously overall the situation is not ideal.

 

Kindly, the longer you stay in this relationship assuming that he either doesn’t leave his marriage or comes/goes, the more unhealthy it will become for you...

 

It doesn’t sound to me like you will let it go on for too long though. You seem to be pretty realistic and I sense a strength that causes me to believe you won’t allow yourself to be taken advantage of by a man. I would argue that you need to set your standards a little higher, but I think you will figure that out. I think FMW hit the nail on the head with her comment that it’s difficult to understand because it’s not what YOU would do. That is very true, and important to understand and accept.

[finna]

Thank you- I can see that you do understand the situation. At this point I’m not sure in what context he wants to continue our relationship... it’s one of the things I want to talk about with him next week. At the the very least we still have great affection for each other and can’t do NC due to business. I know what I want from him, but where his head is at today versus next week is anyone’s guess at this point.

 

 

 

I do understand. The first 2 of the 3 years of my relationship with xMM he was living separately from his wife. We spent several nights together every week, many entire weekends, including trips. We cooked dinner and breakfast together, went grocery shopping, golfed, hiked, went to his gigs (he was a musician). We were more "together" than my xH and I had been for much of our marriage.

 

But he still wouldn't end his marriage. Still hasn't, even though he has another OW now who clearly adores him and hangs on his every word and movement.

 

I understand, it's mind blowing to try to wrap your head around it because it's not what YOU would do. That's why so many women hang on for so long, they try to put the situation into their own context and can't accept that he really is choosing to stay in a marriage he claims is so bad.

 

Just as posters here who haven't been in your situation can't understand why you are choosing to stay in the position of OW.

[FMW]

I’m not sure in what context he wants to continue our relationship

 

Just remember YOU get to decide what YOU do. Beyond being cordial to the extent required for business, nothing else is required.