A Different Perspective

My husband has a family plaqued by affairs, a lot of them. They are really a mess actually. Because of that, he has an immense respect for marriage and any marriage close to him that falls apart he takes personally. He also guilts himself into believing that he could of done more to be there for them when in reality, there was nothing he could do. He had worked past much of his family issues, but Tom brought them back to the surface.

Ah. That makes more sense then.

It just seems like in this case, Lisa got to keep you and your husband. And since you and H both have been so upset with Tom regarding his behavior toward his family and your family...

 

Why bother? I mean, I get that your H and Tom were friends and that your H possibly feels betrayed and abandoned and that you feel bad for him...

 

But. When a crisis happens, when a tragedy occurs - made of our own doing or not...we apologize to those whose entire lives we have affected. Tom knows what he has done to his children, he lives with it and is probably sorry for it. How he made your H feel has probably not occurred to him. With all the damage and upheaval, your H's feelings just havent come up.

 

In talking to Tom, asking for an apology or just telling him he feels betrayed....I mean, do guys even do that??

LOL, I think guys do it, but in their own guy speak.

(aka, as few words as possible)

Seriously though, my husband likes communication. He thinks it is key to any great relationship, not just marriage, but friendships. I guess that is one of the traits he picked up from watching his extended family deal with divorce after divorce, he saw that communication was lacking in all of them & he goes full out on it in his own relationships.

As for why I bother, it's because it still bothers my husband & hashing it out with Tom seems to be the next step to either close the door for good or work past it as friends. Either way, I'd support my husband & just want to see this through to the end.

Yep. They must have been close for Tom to have sought him out initially with his "issue". They should get together , at least for a final conversation.

the secret part of it all is usually what is exciting to the one cheating. you extinguished that possibility when you forced his hand.

the exposure would have been forced anyway due to the pregnancy... timing looks like he was seeing her more than a month... he probably was.

when i found out about my xH affair - our best friends helped me through the first few days of what needed to be done before my H came back from his "business trip" that i happened to find out about the OW being with him on an actual vacation.

our best friends were DEVASTATED - still are 5 years later. the four of us went everywhere together for many, many years. they felt equally betrayed. my best friends husband cried non stop for two weeks - said he felt like someone had died.

i've encouraged them to be his friend - they just really don't want to reward behavior that they don't agree with. it has been devastating to SO MANY people in our town... it's very hard. there are times when people ask about choosing sides and i have told them that we both needs friends to love and support us - there should be no side to choose. some do - some don't. i never bad mouth him... it's private info that people close to me know how i feel - no need to make things worse for everyone... it's just sad all the way around. so many relationships broken up for a little secretive excitement.

the secret part of it all is usually what is exciting to the one cheating. you extinguished that possibility when you forced his hand.

 

the exposure would have been forced anyway due to the pregnancy... timing looks like he was seeing her more than a month... he probably was.

 

when i found out about my xH affair - our best friends helped me through the first few days of what needed to be done before my H came back from his "business trip" that i happened to find out about the OW being with him on an actual vacation.

 

our best friends were DEVASTATED - still are 5 years later. the four of us went everywhere together for many, many years. they felt equally betrayed. my best friends husband cried non stop for two weeks - said he felt like someone had died.

 

i've encouraged them to be his friend - they just really don't want to reward behavior that they don't agree with. it has been devastating to SO MANY people in our town... it's very hard. there are times when people ask about choosing sides and i have told them that we both needs friends to love and support us - there should be no side to choose. some do - some don't. i never bad mouth him... it's private info that people close to me know how i feel - no need to make things worse for everyone... it's just sad all the way around. so many relationships broken up for a little secretive excitement.

I guess it would be like a death & I am happy to hear that my husband is not the only one to experience a strong reaction. And Lisa is like you, she cares about my husband and myself enough to say that if my husband needs this, then she is on board with it. That kind of support is a lot considering all that has happened.

And to that, I think I have my answer. I will discuss it with my husband tonight, offer my opinion that I think he needs to at the very least talk to Tom & that if he chooses to rebuild their friendship, I will support it. I will also make sure he knows it's up to him ultimately if he even wants to talk to him, it's about what he needs to do & I'll support whatever decision he makes.

Thank you all for your responses. It cleared some things up, gave me some much needed insight & helped me walk into this conversation with a bit more knowledge than before.

Makes perfect sense.

And yes, honesty to your family is very important to us. We considered him family, he was the best man at our wedding. He is the god father of our children & even my extended family all considered him a part of our clan. He was more like a brother to my husband & because of that, I would move on for the sack of my husband. He's a good man and if it would make him happy, then I'll support it 100%.

I have to say that I like your line of thought, it is very coherent.

As for what the OW has to do with this all. Well she is Tom's wife now & if Tom is brought back into our lives, she will be a part of that. Understanding things from her perspective is important to me because of her place in Tom's life. (does that make sense?)

Surely it does...thanks.

I think one of the reasons why many affair partners do not take into consideration how much the affair will impact on the friendships is that they get MP's side of the story... so they assume that if the MP's marriage is not stable at all MP's friends will be happy to see him/her happy with someone else. They will also assume that if the betrayed spouse is actually so detached/uninterested/abusive/whatever he/she is painted by the MP, his/her friends will be sorry that the marriage ended but will understand.

Also... if MP has always been so transparent about the A as many affair partners believe... even if friends of the couple get to know about the affair, why should it impact the friendship?

I also think many AP would rather the married person did not ask their friends to lie...

As an OP I have to admit that I never worried about MM losing his friendships because of the A. I worried about his friends not liking me (or about me not liking his friends) but... if he lost some friends because of the A, I'd assume he has been lying to me too.

Adunaphel, great point!

I'm sure the AP believes many of the lies told by the WS, and assumes who could possibly be upset with a marriage in its death throes. What a shock to realize, no matter what the truth or lies of the situation, many family and friends are angered and lost to the WS and the OW, because judgements regarding honesty and character are made.

Hell, those same judgements and losses are experienced by WS if they reconcile with the BS for the same reasons.

It is not the relationship between the AP and the WS, IMHO; it's the secrecy and lies that people react to.

Even if the married couple reconcile, they too are subjected to judgements such as, how could she/he take that person back?

Caitlyn, you and others might see this differently, but I'm not sure I would want to just casually jump back into that circle of friends if I were Tom. Sure, he put your husband in a spot that most people would not like being in, but let's be honest... your husband ran and tattled on him, and then you two together forced him to do what YOU thought was the "right" thing to do.

I think they both owe each other an apology of sorts.... which I realize is a hard thing for you to swallow as a woman... but that's just how it works. Also, you shouldn't be around when/if their discussion takes place.

Caitlyn, IMO you and your husband did the right thing. Tom didn't come to you in an honest way - instead he wanted to include you in his lies, and therefore make you a liar by association.

If you weren't friends with both parties it would have been a different circumstance, but you were friends of both parties. For Tom to bring your husband into the lie - unasked - he was asking you to make a choice between him and his wife. Lie - be with him, be honest - be with his wife.

Caitlyn, you and others might see this differently, but I'm not sure I would want to just casually jump back into that circle of friends if I were Tom. Sure, he put your husband in a spot that most people would not like being in, but let's be honest... your husband ran and tattled on him, and then you two together forced him to do what YOU thought was the "right" thing to do.

 

I think they both owe each other an apology of sorts.... which I realize is a hard thing for you to swallow as a woman... but that's just how it works. Also, you shouldn't be around when/if their discussion takes place.

Her husband didn't betray the cheating Tom. She knows her H well enough to know something was wrong. She guessed what it was and his body language confirmed it. The only thing her H owes Tom is a maybe a swift kick in the pants for expecting him to keep things from his W. Tom is the liar, not OPs spouse.

Perhaps you should MYOB in the future and those kids may have had an intact family.

Yeah, maybe so... IN OPPOSITE-WORLD!

(credit to Tina Fey for that line...)

What he does need to apologize for is putting you in the middle.

Agree totally. Tom's betrayal was in presuming to burden your husband with being complicit (by silence) in his betrayal of his marriage. This might be forgiveable in the long run, but is a huge transgression for any friendship.

In talking to Tom, asking for an apology or just telling him he feels betrayed....I mean, do guys even do that??

LOL, I think guys do it, but in their own guy speak. (aka, as few words as possible)

Yeah for guys it would go something like this:

Guy 1: Dude, WTF, man?

Guy 2: Yeah, look, sorry man...

Guy 1: OK.

Guy 1: Beer?

This is an interaction that, for women, would play out over several hours, many tears, and a couple pints of Hagen Dazs.

You know, you provide a lot of good advice, GEL, but if the above is true, then why does this forum even exist? If outsiders were not important in other people's decisions, no one would come here and listen to said "other people" in pondering a decision.

You know what the whole point of this thread according to the Original Post is:

You shouldn't have an A because it messes up your friendships.

Obviously no one made Tom have an A. It is however LUDICROUS that the OP believes that her and her H being Tom's friend ALONE should stop him from having an A.

He shouldn't even consider it because she's his friend. NOWHERE in the OP is outrage that he did this to his W, his partner or the dear children who now are just starting to adjust.

The OP is all about her and her feelings and how she's so mad that he messed up her clique, period. I'm sorry. That's just nuts.

Forget all the rest of the drama surrounding it.

The forum exists for support and discussion for those involved with a committed partner. The OP is NEITHER.

GEL

I believe her issue is that he involved her husband and put him in a position of having to assist in betraying a friend. I may have missed the part about her believing that the friendship should have prevented Tom from having an affair. where did that come from?

Bottom line, you and your H acted responsibly. Friends take care of each other and his wife was at risk for STDs and gaslighting. This Tom guy should not have assumed your morals were similar to his own.

What I am is a betrayed friend & I want to really know from OW/OM if the friends, the people close to your MM/MW every cross your mind? (Please know I'm not here to judge, but to understand from your POV)

 

So here is my story as a betrayed friend. Myself and my husband had a close group of friends for many years. Several of them went through divorces, two had marriages end partly because of affairs & we stuck together through it all because that is what friends do. For years it worked, we were close, more like a family & we cared about each other.

 

So I ask you posters, the OW/OM out there, do you ever consider the actually number of people your actions are affecting?

Does this ring a bell Reggie?

She is basically saying that she as a betrayed friend (her words) should be taken into consideration by the OW/OM.

Yeah, right.

In alot of cases the OP has NO IDEA who their AP friends are and in many cases doesn't have a clue who the W even is.

GEL

Two days later Tom told Lisa he was having an affair, told her how long it had been going on & even decided to tell Lisa, our other dear friend how we had kept the secret from her.

In my opinion, Tom was wrong to tell his W about the two of you 'knowing and keeping it from her as a secret'. Did he say this maliciously? To hurt the two of you in her eyes? What was his motive here?

And -- why does your H have a problem regarding trust with his male friends? Is it perhaps because they may treat your H as more likely to betray their trust?! Or does he think all his friends may now be capable of lying to him, since his best friend did?

Perhaps your H should not take Tom's lies quite as personally as he has. Like my WH has told me before -- you can't have affairs without lies...

In my opinion, Tom was wrong to tell his W about the two of you 'knowing and keeping it from her as a secret'. Did he say this maliciously? To hurt the two of you in her eyes? What was his motive here?

 

And -- why does your H have a problem regarding trust with his male friends? Is it perhaps because they may treat your H as more likely to betray their trust?! Or does he think all his friends may now be capable of lying to him, since his best friend did?

Perhaps your H should not take Tom's lies quite as personally as he has. Like my WH has told me before -- you can't have affairs without lies...

I don't know why Tom told his wife that, it is a question my husband intends to ask him. IMO, he did it to deflect some of her anger/hurt onto someone other than him, but I don't know for sure.

He has trust issues because he doesn't think he can trust his own instincts when it comes to others. He thought he knew Tom, he trusted Tom and now he second guesses himself when it comes to other people because of Tom.

As for him taking it personally, I wish it was different. I was hurt, but I moved past it. My husband on the other hand has not. Since he is important to me, it has become apparent that something needs to give & that is why my husband agreed, it is time to talk to Tom so he can move past it as well.

Does this ring a bell Reggie?

 

She is basically saying that she as a betrayed friend (her words) should be taken into consideration by the OW/OM.

 

Yeah, right.

 

In alot of cases the OP has NO IDEA who their AP friends are and in many cases doesn't have a clue who the W even is.

 

GEL

Yes, but it is not clear that she feels the consideration should stop Tom from having an affair. Seems a simple inquiry into the mindset of the OW/OM. That said, despite thr ealitythat OWs and MOs , most likely, do not take the effect on others into consideration, one can make an argument that they should.

I often wonder what goes through an OW or OM's mind in this regard. Perhaps they cannot see thins clearly. In my situation, the OM did not have a grasp on reality. He truly believed he could marry my XWW and my kids and her family would accept it, He was in for a rude awakening andthe stress place on the relationship by all the disgust and disapproval was instrumental in destroying their plans. He is a thing of the past. My wife is a single mom of three with a well known history of infidelity, now. Not terribbly marketable, I am afraid.

You know what the whole point of this thread according to the Original Post is:

 

You shouldn't have an A because it messes up your friendships.

 

Obviously no one made Tom have an A. It is however LUDICROUS that the OP believes that her and her H being Tom's friend ALONE should stop him from having an A.

 

He shouldn't even consider it because she's his friend. NOWHERE in the OP is outrage that he did this to his W, his partner or the dear children who now are just starting to adjust.

 

The OP is all about her and her feelings and how she's so mad that he messed up her clique, period. I'm sorry. That's just nuts.

 

Forget all the rest of the drama surrounding it.

 

The forum exists for support and discussion for those involved with a committed partner. The OP is NEITHER.

 

GEL

I think the outrage is implicit in her posts. Clearly , she finds his behavior toward his wife objectionable.

Again she is referring to the OW/OM in making the inquiry as to whether they take others into consideration. No advocacy for the proposition that the friendship should have played a role in Tom's decision to cheat. Clearly, consideration of the friendship should have played a role in his decision to involve them, though.

I often wonder what goes through an OW or OM's mind in this regard. Perhaps they cannot see thins clearly. In my situation, the OM did not have a grasp on reality. He truly believed he could marry my XWW and my kids and her family would accept it, He was in for a rude awakening andthe stress place on the relationship by all the disgust and disapproval was instrumental in destroying their plans. He is a thing of the past. My wife is a single mom of three with a well known history of infidelity, now. Not terribbly marketable, I am afraid.

My M is proof it happens. And it happens alot. I sometimes wonder if it's the attitude of the state, family etc.

I find it perplexing that so many people on here are so shocked that someone even has an A and even more shocking when the M ends and the MM and OW actually don't have horrible things happen to them and go on to live a relatively happy life together.

People get over it. It's embarrassing for people to know for awhile, then life goes on and there's new gossip. I'm not even in a huge metropolitan area. Especially family. I mean really, what parent or even sibling would completely disown their family? I can see disagreeing and not thinking it's right, but blood is thicker than water. I would think the family was pretty dysfunctional if they completely cut their family member out, no matter how much they loved their in-law (BS).

Even kids get over it. Just be honest with them and don't lie. Unless the other parent is completely dissing the other parent (WS) to them, they adjust. And the courts abhor that and you can get custody taken away if you try to damage the other parent's relationship with the children. All it has to be is proven.

So you wanna know the mindset? I'll give it to you:

You and your love are finally together. You work through all there is to be worked through. You blend your families and all that entails. You don't care what other people think or you wouldn't have made it this far. You feel thankful for each other and you feel sad that people were hurt. You wish you had met at a time earlier than you did. You make your peace with yourself and God.

And life goes on.

GEL

You know what the whole point of this thread according to the Original Post is:

 

You shouldn't have an A because it messes up your friendships.

 

Obviously no one made Tom have an A. It is however LUDICROUS that the OP believes that her and her H being Tom's friend ALONE should stop him from having an A.

 

He shouldn't even consider it because she's his friend. NOWHERE in the OP is outrage that he did this to his W, his partner or the dear children who now are just starting to adjust.

 

The OP is all about her and her feelings and how she's so mad that he messed up her clique, period. I'm sorry. That's just nuts.

 

Forget all the rest of the drama surrounding it.

 

The forum exists for support and discussion for those involved with a committed partner. The OP is NEITHER.

 

GEL

That is not the whole point of this thread. You need to read better. The point is my husband may rebuild a friendship with a man who married his OW & I won't go into it blind. I know a little more from the OW's perspective & it may make it easier on all involved.

A couple of other points since you seem hell bent on arguing with me:

-No where did I even imply that our friedship with Tom should of somehow stopped him from having an affair. I haven't a clue where you got that from, but it wasn't from anything I posted.

-No, it didn't ruin our circle of friends, but it did damage it. Then again, we will fix it, we have before & we will agian. It doesn't make me less upset that he did the damage in the first place.

-As for the outrage over what he did to his wife and children, that is not the issue I posted about. Those involved know how both myself & my husband feel about what he did, but as I said, IT IS NOT what my post was about. I was trying to keep this as non-judgemental as possible & in return, I get this?

And one last thing, Yes, I do agree with that bolded part, but it is an opinion I have a right to. Affairs do hurt many people. I'm sorry if that bothers you, but it is the simple truth. Every other poster has been civil, just as I have been to each of them, yet you seemed to take issue with me instantly. Did I touch on a sore subject for you?

Feel free to not care about the people your affair hurt because hey, your happy, screw them, right? But don't bash me for discussing how my husband and myself were affected negatively by an affair & don't bash me for trying to understand things from the OW's perspective before we went forward.

i'm left wondering WHY you and your husband would be willing to reward bad behavior (Tom and his now W) with your friendship?

My M is proof it happens. And it happens alot. I sometimes wonder if it's the attitude of the state, family etc.

 

I find it perplexing that so many people on here are so shocked that someone even has an A and even more shocking when the M ends and the MM and OW actually don't have horrible things happen to them and go on to live a relatively happy life together.

 

People get over it. It's embarrassing for people to know for awhile, then life goes on and there's new gossip. I'm not even in a huge metropolitan area. Especially family. I mean really, what parent or even sibling would completely disown their family? I can see disagreeing and not thinking it's right, but blood is thicker than water. I would think the family was pretty dysfunctional if they completely cut their family member out, no matter how much they loved their in-law (BS).

 

Even kids get over it. Just be honest with them and don't lie. Unless the other parent is completely dissing the other parent (WS) to them, they adjust. And the courts abhor that and you can get custody taken away if you try to damage the other parent's relationship with the children. All it has to be is proven.

 

So you wanna know the mindset? I'll give it to you:

 

You and your love are finally together. You work through all there is to be worked through. You blend your families and all that entails. You don't care what other people think or you wouldn't have made it this far. You feel thankful for each other and you feel sad that people were hurt. You wish you had met at a time earlier than you did. You make your peace with yourself and God.

 

And life goes on.

 

GEL

I'm shocked you seem to think that bolded part is the normal outcome of an affair. That's hard to get in any relationship, let alone one burdened with additional stress from the start.

i'm left wondering WHY you and your husband would be willing to reward bad behavior (Tom and his now W) with your friendship?

Personally, I would rather not, but if my husband wants this friendship back, I'll support him.

Either way, I'll know soon enough. My husband plans on inviting him out for a drink after work tomorrow.

I've been reading this forum because I'm the type of lady who likes to see each point of view before making my mind up on any subject.

 

So after reading, I felt the need to post, but not as an OW/OM or a BS. What I am is a betrayed friend & I want to really know from OW/OM if the friends, the people close to your MM/MW every cross your mind? (Please know I'm not here to judge, but to understand from your POV)

 

In response to that question alone, I will say absolutely, yes. They have crossed our mind, they have been discussed, as well as the impact that his D will have on the various relationships that he has.

We have talked about how our R will proceed, who will know about us and roughly when. Our A is not known, and we intend to keep it that way. He will lose some relationships, but that is just normal.

And as GEL said, you really don't care what other people think. You have made it this far and they will either accept our R, or the friendship with them is done.

The bottom line is that in any D, there are the problems of "friends". His friends, her friends, our friends. And perhaps I am just a fairly private person, but the news of my own D shocked all of our friends. But our M, while outwardly idyllic, was a mess - and had been for many years.

But I will say, unequivocally, that the impact of my D, on my/his/our friends, in no way influenced our decision to D. And if any family weren't happy with the decision...tough.

Going through a D is a rough time, no matter what the circumstances. And if family and friends can be supportive and non-judgmental, the easier the healing. If my friends chose not to support me, and refused to acknowledge that I am better off without him, and even now don't see how much happier I am, then they aren't very good friends.

As a friend, I love and support my friends. I can't live their lives for them, I can't make decisions for them. I may not agree with the decisions that they make, but I will support them. And if they make a dreadful mistake, I will be there to help them pick up the pieces of their lives again.

As for the rest of the story, I wonder if Tom was seeking out your H for some help and advice, and while he may not have disclosed everything in that first conversation, perhaps he would have, had they continued to communicate. Instead, your H offered the ultimatum to either tell his W, or your H would. Perhaps Tom saw your H as "his friend" as opposed to "their friend" and felt secure to approach him for help, in confidence.

How about this perspective?

 

If you hadn't forced an answer out of your H, perhaps Tom would have pulled his s*** together and the A would run its course, OW and Tom are not forced together and Tom realizes he messed up, goes home, is a better H to Lisa and they live happily ever after.

 

Hmmm....

 

Perhaps you should MYOB in the future and those kids may have had an intact family.

 

I guess my biggest problem with your post is why in the world would anyone make their decisions based on what their friends think? Friends are not even a factor in whether someone has an affair or not. YOUR SPOUSE SHOULD BE.

 

This wasn't about you or your H or the couples in your little clique. Maybe your clique isn't so close because they think YOU overstepped your bounds. With friends like you, who needs enemies?

 

Perhaps you should go ask Tom your questions. See what he says. He is after all the one who "betrayed" you.

 

GEL

GEL you took the words right out of my mouth. I'm thinking Tom was forced into D and might not ever have left for the OW unless forced. Tom and his new wife should thank Mr and Mrs Caitlyn.

Caitlyn, the only thing I think Tom did wrong to you was to 'make appearances'. But you are a grown up and you should be able to get over this. The only person Tom owed the truth to was himself. Yes, he should have behaved differently but it wasn't for you to force.