Phone Sex, Porn and the Internet in Relationships

My wife is into books on tape, some with some erotic overtones, I guess that would be equivalent to a prerecorded message. Doesnt bother me in the least. Actually romance novels where usually considered the female version of porn since, generally speaking, it appeals to women emotionally and mentally.

Cynical- I think the point we were trying to make was, would you still be OK if your wife listened only to the x-rated part of the tape, and masturbated to it on a regular basis, behind your back? Or you caught her sneaking off in the middle of the night to do that? You wouldn't feel a bit hurt at all, that she is choosing this fantasy over you? Wouldn't you be thinking, why doesn't she ask ME to talk dirty to her? I think you, and most men, would.

I agree that this would not interest most women, but for the sake of conversation, let's assume women would be interested.

Cynical- I think the point we were trying to make was, would you still be OK if your wife listened only to the x-rated part of the tape, and masturbated to it on a regular basis, behind your back? Or you caught her sneaking off in the middle of the night to do that? You wouldn't feel a bit hurt at all, that she is choosing this fantasy over you? Wouldn't you be thinking, why doesn't she ask ME to talk dirty to her? I think you, and most men, would.

 

I agree that this would not interest most women, but for the sake of conversation, let's assume women would be interested.

I can understand where you coming from with this, but you know I also think that some people have sexual behaviors which are very personal private moments too. Maybe they are ashamed with behavior and dont wish to share this behavior with their mate (I fall in this category). I don't think men want to hurt their wives or girlfriends intentionally but they have an implusive need to view and fantasize about other women ( mostly as 2d dimensional lust objects ) . Understanding that in general most women have a problem with this concept, the man will try to hide it or sneak it into the relationship somehow.

I dont feel comfortable watching porn with my wife. To me it is something I keep personal and private and I am ashamed of it. As a result, I don't pry into my wife inner thoughts and secret desires. If she has personally sex habits she wants to keep private I am fine with that as long as it doesnt involve the cable guy or the next door neighbor or the lawn service guy in a real life physical sense!! If, however, she has a personal sexual relationship with speedo the vibrator I havent found out about it nor do I care.

Basically I think women who feel overally threatened by porn have self image and esteem issues perhaps throw in some control issues as well. It's no different then those overly jealous men who go nuts when their wives or girlfriends smile at another guy the wrong way.

 

Basically I think women who feel overally threatened by porn have self image and esteem issues perhaps throw in some control issues as well. It's no different then those overly jealous men who go nuts when their wives or girlfriends smile at another guy the wrong way.

That's called blameshifting. If a woman had a problem with self esteem, she would just shut up and tolerate the addiction to porn in fear she will "lose" her man if she complains about the lack of sex.

Your wife using a vibrator is one thing, but if she PREFERRED using the vibrator every day and decided to have sex with you once every 6 months just to shut you up, how would YOU feel about it? A bit "insecure"? And why are you even doing something that you feel ashamed of?

Cynical- I agree with a lot of what you said, but let me ask you a question, if you don't mind. Why do you look at porn, rather than take some 'happy' pics of you and your wife, if you know what I mean? I am against porn on moral and religious grounds, as is my H. But I also get that he is a guy and for reasons I honestly can't undertand, LOVES looking at sex. So, I let him grab the digital cam and he takes pics of us together, makes his little movies, and when he masturbates, looks at those. I have no problem with masturbation, it's the porn I find offensive.

I can understand your desire to masturbate in private as well, I just don't understand why you want to look at other women while doing it? And not just you personally, men in general. Do you feel ashamed for masturbating, or looking at porn while doing so? Would pics of you and your wife together not turn you on?

And as for your last assertation, I will have to respectfully disagree. I am an avid runner, keep myself in shape, and get hit on regularly. I am not insecure. I just see the value of sex and intimacy in a relationship differently than you do. I know there will be men who say porn means nothing. I disagree. It may mean very little, but there is something there. If it could not affect the male brain, we would not have thread after thread of porn addiction, or threads where men are mean and hurtful to their wives for not looking a certain way, or not able to get it up anymore b/c their wife no longer excites them b/c they have become desensitized by porn. Again, I think most men don't have these issues, but I believe that all of that energy should be saved for your partner- it builds stronger bonds, including the bonds of trust, IMO.

And please don't think that I am picking on you, but since you are the only man brave enough to tread in here, you are the only one I have to ask questions of.

That's called blameshifting. If a woman had a problem with self esteem, she would just shut up and tolerate the addiction to porn in fear she will "lose" her man if she complains about the lack of sex.

 

Your wife using a vibrator is one thing, but if she PREFERRED using the vibrator every day and decided to have sex with you once every 6 months just to shut you up, how would YOU feel about it? A bit "insecure"? And why are you even doing something that you feel ashamed of?

I wasnt talking about addiction, that's a whole other area. Whether it is gambling, drugs, internet, porn or whatever if someone is an addict they need to help if they want to seek help for it.

I don't choose porn over my wife ever. I am ashamed mostly because I was raised Catholic and tend have guilt about sexual expression in general. Those Nuns and those yard sticks ...shiver ..

Well not sure about the vibrator question. Since I consider my marriage as sexless with the average month and half between. But that mostly due to having two active kids, diminished energy levels, no free time, and a whole list of other excuses. If speedo is getting is more action than me then that one lucky piece of plastic. Seriously, hard to answer that question since it doesnt pretain to my situation. I have a sexless marriage mostly to due my wife's priorities in life (sex isnt high on the list), our schedules and activity levels dont match ( she in bed by 8:30 pm up by 5:00 am - I'm in bed at 11:30 pm up at 7:30 am ). It sucks but it's the price you pay when having kids, a nice house, yearly vacations, and all the materialistic crap people tend to find important.

"Why do all women generalize about men and porn? Why are women always so angry about this topic? I don't get it.."

 

Because it is a very hurtful topic if you are a woman and makes women feel less important, less feminine, less attractive to their mates.

You didn't get my sarcasm after all. I was trying to make the point against your generalizations about "all men" by making outrageous comments myself and generalizing about "all women" - sarcastic statements which I do not believe. I thought it was outrageous enough to be obvious, but my sarcasm was apparently missed. Always a risk of that...

"I would prefer that you not pass judgement on what works for me in my relationship..."

 

Of course I am going to pass judgement. We all pass judgement one way or another. And if it works for you, fine. But I think that is a crappy way to treat your partner.

Let me just make sure we are clear here, because I think I described for you my philosophy that partners need to have "good, clear communication with your SO about what your mutual expectations and limits are", and you're telling me that even if we come to a mutual agreement about this subject, but if our agreement doesn't match your opinion, then this is a crappy way for me to treat my partner? Is that what you are saying?

"What are you still upset about?"

 

I thought I was pretty clear. Porn and how men love it at the price of the *real* woman in their life.

Again, I think you missed my point, but let's go one more quote here...

I'd like to hear a response to Pink-Tulips question too. And I would like to know why men defend porn and stick up for the porn over the real woman in their life. Because I don't see anyone answering that.

The reason it's so quiet is that this thread hasn't added anything to the unresolvable argument that is hashed out at least once a month in different forums here, the old "why do men think porn is great / no we don't, but it's not that big a deal / you love them more than us / it's not the same thing / blah blah / blah blah" back and forth. Sometimes, people post their personal trials and difficulties, and that makes it easy to connect, to empathize, and to help out, but all you've done is thrown the SOPT (same ol' porn thread) out there, and refused to share anything personal of your own situation and what has brought you here. No interest; nothing new.

Sure, you don't like it, and it frustrates you, and you're angry at men, in general, for being this way. OK, I get it. But beyond that, you've given me nothing about you to be interested in, nothing about you to empathize with, nothing about you to respond to. (...and I'm not inclined to respond to a question like "I am just so sick of hearing guys defend porn as this great wonderful thing. When do men defend the women in their lives and stick up for them instead of sticking up for the porn?" I don't speak for all men, I don't define or defend porn as "this great wonderful thing", and I have never chosen or defended it in preference to a partner or any real human being in my life, so I can't answer you.)

These boards are about sharing our experiences, personal, painful, and difficult as they may be. So my question, "what are you still upset about", wasn't intended to mean "do you still have the same opinion", but rather I'm asking for you to share your experience with men and porn - what brought you here, what hurt you, what has made you so angry? Frankly, I think knowing more about that would give me a way to be much more sympathetic with you. Otherwise, you're just posting a rant, which is great for blowing off steam, but there's a "Rants and Confessions" forum for that, and you chose to post in "Marriage & Life Partnerships", which makes me think something has happened in your marriage or your life that has brought you here...

And I certainly have common ground with Pink_Tulip when she says:

So, Jersey, as I said before, find someone with the same values and beliefs about porn that you have, and let all this go. It will only drive you insane.

My point, too... But is it not that simple for you, Jersey? Why? Take a risk - share something of yourself...

"Also Jersy I would add that you shouldn't compare yourself to the vacant, highly airbrushed, eye candy the porn industry sells for the sexually frustrated. It's not reality you are trying to comparing yourself too. No one can compete with unreal expectations."

I know it's not reality. But I also know it's what men put on some fantasy pedestal of beauty and what men wished they could have, hence the fantasy of it all. So to say to women that they shouldn't compare themselves, and then turn around and masturbate over it, and wonder why women find themselves lacking is so stupid and self-envolved.

"I don't think men want to hurt their wives or girlfriends intentionally but they have an implusive need to view and fantasize about other women ( mostly as 2d dimensional lust objects ) . Understanding that in general most women have a problem with this concept, the man will try to hide it or sneak it into the relationship somehow.

Seriously, are men honestly this obtuse??? You take super-imposed fantasy images of what men wished women looked like and you turn around and wonder why women have self image problems???? Really, is this too hard a concept for you to grasp? Yes women feel threated by porn sometimes. Their man is obviously not happy with what they have and jerking it off to images they can never live up to. And men wonder why women don't feel good about themselves. I am sorry but if you need porn that much that you have to lie about it, then do your girlfriend/wife a favor and dump her.

"... but if our agreement doesn't match your opinion, then this is a crappy way for me to treat my partner? Is that what you are saying?"

In my own opinion, yes.

Hey Trimmer- I agree that the bottom line is either you like porn or you don't, and you find a partner who shares the same beliefs. Communication in the beginning of the relationship will prevent all these issues later.

But for the sake of conversation, and because Cynical hasn't been back and I am very curious... would you be OK with your wife listening to recordings of a man talking dirty and masturbating to it? Wouldn't you be wondering why she wasn't calling YOU?

"... but if our agreement doesn't match your opinion, then this is a crappy way for me to treat my partner? Is that what you are saying?"

 

In my own opinion, yes.

So just to extra-double-completely-and-totally clarify your position.... My partner and I have mutually and openly communicated our expectations, boundaries, limits, etc. and are happy with the outcome. Are you saying (a) Trimmer, this is a crappy way for you to treat your partner, or (b) that kind of agreement would never work for me, Jersey?

If it's (a), which is how I'm reading your previous comments, why isn't it a crappy way for her to treat me?

And you didn't address my real issue here, so let me say this: I came on Loveshack to deal with some difficult issues in my life and did so by sharing something of myself and my situation. I sometimes try to engage in discussions with others who have done the same. However, I have come to realize (just now) that I don't so much enjoy engaging in theoretical, generalized discussions like this thread:

...as opposed to ones where a poster invests something personal, something particular to his or her own situation:

The first is simply a rant, where you can't really enter the discussion without generalizing to groups like "all men" or "all women" "all cheaters" or "all betrayed spouses", or whatever, and we end up much more likely to polarize ourselves behind these generalizations than to make any kind of useful connections between us as individuals.

I don't - and have never - prioritized porn over a real relationship in my life, and I don't defend it, in your terms, as a great wonderful thing, so I can't speak for all men, the aggregate group that you are complaining about. All I can do is lay out my personal philosophy, which you also seem to find "crappy". If my philosophy wouldn't work in your relationship, I accept and respect that. If you think I'm being crappy to my partner, (when we arrived at a mutual agreement) then I say: get out of my bedroom, and focus on your own life!

And I wish I could feel some kind of a connection with you as an individual, but you have given me nothing to go on - you have hidden behind the "general hypothetical case", and have not shared anything of yourself. If you said to me "my husband chooses porn over me - I would like to have sex, but he backs off, then I find that he is masturbating to pictures of nude women..." I would totally understand your anguish. And even though I have never experienced that, from either side, I would be quite empathetic. But I have no idea what has happened to you - you haven't really shared anything of yourself - so I don't feel any connection with you as an individual.

Pink_Tulip - next post.

Hey Trimmer- I agree that the bottom line is either you like porn or you don't, and you find a partner who shares the same beliefs. Communication in the beginning of the relationship will prevent all these issues later.

 

But for the sake of conversation, and because Cynical hasn't been back and I am very curious... would you be OK with your wife listening to recordings of a man talking dirty and masturbating to it? Wouldn't you be wondering why she wasn't calling YOU?

A fair question, and since I espoused the philosophy of communicating openly, setting mutually acceptable limits, and then keeping your behaviors within those limits, then I'd darn well better be OK with it, yes?

But I understand that your question goes beyond that - how would I feel about it - and that's kind of a more interesting question anyway. In my time with my STBX, I would say that we generally had less sex than I would have chosen to. In the last few years it was down to once a month or so. Really the classic setup: married for 10+ years, 2 kids, 1-1/2 jobs, house, school, activities, tired... Every once in a while, there would be a little passion spark for a few days, then we would cycle back out - or my perception was that she would cycle back out. I don't want to assign blame - maybe I wasn't "sensitive" enough, maybe I didn't meet her emotional needs correctly, or who knows, but I guarantee, if there had been more sexual interest on her part, I would have been a supportive, willing contributor.

At one point a couple years ago, I bought a vibrator, after we had playfully discussed it. It didn't completely rejuvinate our sex life, but it became an occasional part of it, and I always wondered if she sometimes used it on her own. I kind of hoped she would, and it turned me on a little bit to imagine that, because I enjoyed thinking of her as a more sexual being than she had semed to become - someone who was actually interested in sex, in a variety of contexts - and I had the confidence that I was her only "real" partner - the one human being she would always turn to. I fully expected that she might be fantasizing about other men, and again, we had playfully joked about the "hot" young men on the local track team and a few others like that, so I knew she had some 'fire' inside. Again, it only added to her attractiveness, because I saw her as being a more sexually interested person - enjoying more of a reward for herself out of sex - and I had that confidence that we were each others' "human" partners.

Not to kill the mood, but she ultimately started a relationship with another man (oh, "just friends" of course...) and decided to leave me, but that's a matter for the infidelity and divorce forums, and I'm not looking for any sympathy in the context of this discussion.

So P_T, the bottom line is, I believe I would have been comfortable with it, in the context of a relationship where I felt confident that we had a mutual commitment to being each others' only interactive, human partners.

The irony is, will you look at our situation and say - well, her fantasizing about a "better partner" led to damage to the marriage, so in a way that supports Jersey's original point somewhat? Or do you look at it and say, here's a case where the man was loyal and committed to the marriage and the woman fantasized her way out of it, so that disproves Jersey's point that "all men" fantasize about that "other" perfect partner and cause all this anguish and strife?

And just like we denigrate men for fantasizing about other, if imaginary, women, do you nick women for secretly fantasizing about a 'better' outside partner, although we just don't see it because they don't do it in pictures - they just do it quietly in their heads, imagining a partner or a husband less boring, more attentive, more whatever than their current partner?

I'll return to my fundamental take which is, there's not some pathological tendency in all men or all women. We are what we are and we are different in some ways and similar in other ways. I believe many men and many women (I'll avoid using "all") occasionally think about other partners. Some men look at pictures and punch the clown. Some women imagine Fabio or Brad Pitt or Kevin Costner and go to the back of the underwear drawer and load up the vibrator with new double-A alkalines. Some of those people are truly committed to their partners and some of them aren't, and that has everything to do with the outcomes of their feelings and behaviors. So I don't paint them all, or whole groups of them (all men, all women) with a single brush. They are all individuals, and if one of them tells me his or her story, I will try to understand and empathize.

Hey Trimmer, thanks for your response. It is quite different from my H's, which is why I was asking. As I have mentioned, we don't do porn, but my H does have a collection of pics and videos of the two of us that he likes.

My H likes to be the end all be all of my sexual gratification, lol. We have a very active sex life, so I rarely masturbate, but do on occasion. He seems to see this as a failure on his part. He regularly tells me that if I ever need a quickie, he is happy to oblige, whether it is oral, sex, or simply holding the vibrator for me, no strings attached. He seems to feel the need to be involved in some way, otherwise thinks he has let me down, if that makes sense. If he found out I was masturbating to some other mans voice, as in my hypothetical, it would drive him insane. I assumed all men felt this way, which is why I asked the question. I have some friends who have shared similar experiences, so I just assumed it was the norm, ya know? Hope that makes sense.

And Jersey, T brings up a good point. We really don't know anything about you. Is this something you are experiencing? If yes, why don't you tell us your situation. If not, why so much concern for something that, if you make an effort to find a man with your belief system, will never happen?

 

The irony is, will you look at our situation and say - well, her fantasizing about a "better partner" led to damage to the marriage, so in a way that supports Jersey's original point somewhat? Or do you look at it and say, here's a case where the man was loyal and committed to the marriage and the woman fantasized her way out of it, so that disproves Jersey's point that "all men" fantasize about that "other" perfect partner and cause all this anguish and strife?

 

And just like we denigrate men for fantasizing about other, if imaginary, women, do you nick women for secretly fantasizing about a 'better' outside partner, although we just don't see it because they don't do it in pictures - they just do it quietly in their heads, imagining a partner or a husband less boring, more attentive, more whatever than their current partner?

 

This is interesting. You know, I could probably write pages about this. To be honest, I'd say that I believe that there are some men and women who CAN get bored with a relationship if they fantasize too much, look at porn too much, and that may lead to looking for something that can't be had in a comfortable, long term relationship (which most people, myself included, probably prefer and want.) Is that the fault of the porn, or is that the fault of the person for not being able to recognize this issue and deal with it? Both? I could probably make a pretty good argument for each side. And it would be true for certain people, untrue for the rest. And that is where Jersey is stuck. She can only see the group of men who do see porn in a preferential light, who want to be with a fake looking, abusrdly huge boobed woman who just loves to degrade herself for men. I can only assume she is living this, which is why she is so focused on it. I could be wrong.

Very nicely stated Trimmer. You sound like a level headed and rational guy, sorry to read your wife cheated on you. Demonstrates she has poor judgement.

Pink_Tulip to respond to your questions.

I use porn to fulfill my needs. I prefer it to the other option which is to find a real life substitue for my wife. I do not want to get entangled with another woman because I honestly dont want to complicate my life any further and women ( not all ) have a tendancy of complicating things. Also, I have seen the devastation that cheating has on a person and I would never wish that upon my wife.

I would only feel ashamed if I were caught in the act of viewing porn with my hand in mid stroke. I suspect my wife knows I view porn and has yet to confront me. I am pretty sure she knows this cause I dont put a great effort to hide it. Any curious person with little knowledge of computers would find it. Having said that, I would be highly embarrassed if she were ever to bought the subject up and I sense she knows this as well. I have told her that I masturbate alot between our long periods of sexlessness though. If she were to bring it up (after my initial embarrassment died down) and told me that it was hurtful to her I would stop for her sake ( at least the porn viewing part ).

I think it's great you and your husband use self made material for your mutual pleasure. Neither my wife or myself would feel comfortable in creating our own little smut movies or blue pics. We are both sexually repressive in that sense. (Hope your private stash never finds it way out to the Internet!)

I trust my wife. I doubt highly she would ever cheat on me. I can safely say this becuase I know sex is not a big priority in her life. In fact now that she done making babies she has little use for it. Doubt she even self pleasure herself. Since I dont harrass her or initiate the act in any way I go for long periods without it. Sometimes in a rare mood she'll get horny and she'll make her move.

Now I am sure if the reason of our sexlessness was because she masturbated constantly listening to kelsey Grammer reading the condensed version of 'Debby does Dallas' then sure I would be miffed. Just as I am already miffed that it is her low libido and differences in schedules which is the cuase of our exisiting sexlessness. But harrassing her and nagging her will only make a bad situation worse. It's better to cope with it and find an outlet that provides some relief. That is where porn comes in. Our marriage is not built just on sex there are many other pluses to our relationship that compenstate for the lack of sex.

Cynical- just out of curiosity. Why do you state your only two options are porn or an affair? Have you seriously talked to your wife about needing more sex? If you have read a lot on here, you know many women don't make the connection that sex is an emotional need for men. If she knew that, you'd probably be having a lot more sex. I find the fact that you two are only having sex every few months disturbing. That isn't healthy for your relationship. Sex is a very important way for couples to bond, and the more frequent the sex, the stronger the marital bond.

Also, you say that you trust your wife, and that she won't cheat b/c sex isn't that important to her. Women don't cheat over sex most times. They cheat b/c their emotional needs aren't being met. I am not accusing you of not meeting your wifes EN's, but I wanted to clear that up. Many men are surprised to find their wives who never wanted sex more than once a month are cheating. Heck, look at Trimmer's story. His wife seemed to have all the sex she could want. Again, not saying Trimmer wasn't providing EN's to his wife, just making the point it wasn't about sex.

You also said you suspect your wife knows you view porn but 'has yet to confront you.' Do you think she is bothered by it? Are you expecting her to be upset about it? Does she know you view porn and masturbate b/c you aren't being satisfied with the lack of sex? If you have discussed these issues in another thread, I must have missed it, please point me to the thread. Otherwise, I'd be interested to know. I know, I am a very nosey person.

I have talked many times to my wife concening the frequency of sex or the lack there of. She knows how I feel concerning the subject and she herself understands the importance of sex is in a relationships in general. Despite her best efforts she can't maintain an active interest or energy in sex. Much of the mundane events in her life are more important and diverts much her energy. She is the type on person no matter how hard you help to clear her plate of daily tasks she will seek out more stuff to fill the empty spaces. It's a genetic thing since I have observe the same behaviors in her father and brother. I joke with her that she has only two states full go mode or off. If she not being productive for more than 5 minutes she goes into off mode. I have just grown to accept her that is the who she is. Annoying at times but I love her regardless.

Now I have read most of the LS guys responses to the sexless marriages topics as Cope, Cheat, or Leave. I agree with that advice and I have chosen coping. I value of the other aspects of the relationship just to throw aside. My wife and I are very comfortable with each other. Cheating on her is not an obtion either due to the damage it can cause and really if I needed sex that badly I should just leave her and find another woman. Since I dont see porn as cheating I selected that as my coping mechanism.

I have told my wife that masturbate but failed to mention about the use of porn. She hasnt pressed the subject further. I think she is uncomfortable in talking about it knowing that she is feels neglectful in her wifey obligations concerning sex.

I understand about fulfilling her emotional needs. I do my best and I sure there is always room for improvement in that department. It would come as a complete shock to me if she would leave me or cheat on me. I dont feel I am failing her in that department. One thing I like about this site is that I can learn from ladies responses to various issues. It definately makes me aware to issuses or way of thinking I might not be aware of.

Lol, I totally get your wife. I am the same way, gotta have at least three projects going, with another few in the planning stages at all times.

If she understands the importance of sex and wants to fulfill that in the relationship but can't b/c of how she feels, has she gone to the dr.? I know James posted a story about his wifes lack of libido due to meds she was taking, and I have posted about a friend whose libido disappeared after the birth of her youngest, and testosterone cream brought it back right away. If she wants to have sex but physically isn't feeling it, could it be medical?

In my case it worked the other way round.

We had great (and I mean great!!!) sex for years.

I’m a bit kinky and a bit adventurous and he loved my approach to sex.

Then I found out about his desire to look at other women (not that he was hiding that, we just never really talked about it and he assumed that I know because ‘all men do it’). Besides, I always thought that porn is more about ‘action’ – but apparently, for men is more about hot chicks.

It totally turned me off!

Now we have sex once a month on average, usually when I feel so horny that I forget everything else.

But most of the times, I simply feel inadequate.

Knowing that he is jerking it off to perfect looking girls (that real women just can't compete with) makes me feel so ‘unspecial’.

Stella

(sorry, forgot my password)

Wow Stella, that really sucks. Every time I read stories like this I am glad we don't have porn in our relationship. I know I'd feel like you, and I simply wouldn't be able to have sex with my H if I knew he was looking at porn regularly.

Does your H know you feel this way? From what I have seen on this board, I think most good men would agree to shelve the porn permanently if it meant good, regular sex from their wife. So are you basically saying he is choosing porn over you?? I can't comprehend this. You must feel very betrayed.

"So just to extra-double-completely-and-totally clarify your position.... My partner and I have mutually and openly communicated our expectations, boundaries, limits, etc. and are happy with the outcome. Are you saying (a) Trimmer, this is a crappy way for you to treat your partner, or (b) that kind of agreement would never work for me, Jersey?"

Honestly, what do you care what I think about the choices between you and your parnter??? What does this have to do with what I am talking about? You avoided everything I said to ask me if I agree with your choices between you and your partner.

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"However, I have come to realize (just now) that I don't so much enjoy engaging in theoretical, generalized discussions like this thread.."

If you don't like the way I am posting then engage in discussions else where.

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"The first is simply a rant, where you can't really enter the discussion without generalizing to groups like "all men""

I never said "all" men. Your own assumption.

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"I accept and respect that. If you think I'm being crappy to my partner, (when we arrived at a mutual agreement) then I say: get out of my bedroom, and focus on your own life!"

I don't remember being focused on your life. I don't even know who you are.

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"And I wish I could feel some kind of a connection with you as an individual, but you have given me nothing to go on - you have hidden behind the "general hypothetical case", and have not shared anything of yourself. .."

I can't seem to find one man that doesn't look at porn. Porn is degrading to women, so it makes me wonder if men even like women. Porn is about perfect women who beg for sex with men, so it makes me wonder if I am attractive enough. Porn is about 18 year olds with implants, which supports my insecurities. I wonder if men really value women or just care about them spreading their legs. I wonder why men even bother with relationships since it obviously is not a satsifying experience with them. I wonder why no one told me when I was a little girl I was going to grow up and have to share the attention of the *one* guy that is suppose to care for me above all other woman and how I ma suppose to just shut up and accept it because it's either porn or he is going to cheat. I wonder why men always wish women weere something other then what they are and why men can't love women.

I am sorry for what happened with your past gf though. Finding out she cheated on you.

Honestly, what do you care what I think about the choices between you and your parnter??? What does this have to do with what I am talking about?

I don't, actually. As you said earlier, "I am just trying to make a point." I responded because you said that I had a crappy way of treating my partner, and I'm doing what I can to understand your position and your experiences, since I wasn't sure I really understood you here . You are asking general questions about how men approach relationships, I am asking a general question (using myself as an example) about how you approach relationships. It's a discussion.

I don't remember being focused on your life. I don't even know who you are.

Indeed, which is why I became so fascinated when you offered the judgement that I was treating my partner in a crappy way.

If you don't like the way I am posting then engage in discussions else where.

It's not that I don't like you or this discussion - I've actually found the discussion among Pink_Tulip, CynicalP and me to be quite rewarding, and I'm thankful to you for providing the catalyst for that. I just wish we could draw you out into contributing something more personal of yourself, since we still aren't getting more than "I can't find...", and nothing about what has happened in your life and relationships thus far...

I never said "all" men. Your own assumption.

Technically correct, but you make statements like these:

"And lets add strip clubs to this because guys always make excuses for that "

"Oh but that's okay right because your a guy and guys just can't be happy with one woman. So they need to drag down their woman because they are selfish."

"How come men even bother with relationships?"

"I don't really think men know what should go into a relationship or really care about their woman while in one."

"...men's actions with porn says to me that all men care about is having their cake and eating it too."

"I wonder if men really value women or just care about them spreading their legs."

"I wonder why men always wish women were something other then what they are and why men can't love women."

So you can claim that you never said "all" men, but your statements are clearly generalizing to the group of all men, and you do use the words "all" and "always" liberally. Can you really read the quotes above and search your feelings about "I can't seem to find one man that doesn't look at porn." and tell me you are not generalizing to "all men?"

It seems like you have come to a firm view that "all men" are one entity with one mindset and one way of approaching things - all black and white with no grey tones. "...it's either porn or he is going to cheat" - could anyone ever argue, discuss, or talk you out of that?

I would like to propose some ideas to you, without even bringing "porn" into the discussion, and see what you think. I would like to propose the possibility that all or most men sometimes look at 'another' woman, and wonder what it would be like to 'be with' or 'have' her sexually, and that this does not stop once a man enters a relationship. Let's call this Proposition "A", and I believe this to be generally in the nature of men. (Look who's generalizing now! )

Now, I also propose that in spite of this instinctive tendency, not every man behaves the same way in response to this instinct. I maintain that observing women and imagining women from a sexual perspective is not the same as wanting or intending to take action in that direction (my Proposition B), does not inherently equate to a dissatisfaction with one's partner or relationship (Proposition C), or a desire that one's partner change or "be more like" the other woman (Proposition D.)

Now, without porn even being a part of this discussion, what do you think of these propositions, which I believe to be true? I'm not claiming that all men are saints, that there are no jerks out there who will cheat at the drop of a hat, or look at Jennifer Aniston on TV or a woman walking down the street and make degrading comments to their gf or wife "hey I wish you looked like that" - those men do exist, and I consider that boorish behavior, at best. I'm claiming that these are behaviors that not all men exhibit in response to their internal sexual drive. I maintain that there are men (and not just a few of them) who feel these drives and urges, yet are also sensitive to womens' feelings, and who therefore successfully behave in a mature manner in their relationships, not cheating, not degrading their partners about their physical appearance, and in fact, being genuinely sensitive, supportive, and appreciative throughout their lives together.

The reason I propose this is that I wonder if your true, root issue, is really not porn, but the more fundamental idea that men notice other women - even think about them in a sexual way - and your feeling that this represents a direct judgement on you. It sounds like what it is really about is:

"it makes me wonder if I am attractive enough"

"no one told me... I was going to... have to share the attention of the *one* guy"

and your belief that as a result of this,

"men can't love women"

Is it really about the porn, or is porn just a very visible symptom to you? If porn were banned from newsstands and eliminated from the web, would that really solve your concerns? Would it be enough for you that a man behave responsibly in a relationship with you, or does it still bother you that it is in the nature of men to look around and wonder? If you had a relationship with a man with no cheating and no porn, would it be OK if he masturbated? Would it be OK on a keep-it-private, don't ask/don't tell basis? Would it bother you what he might be thinking, or would it be OK with you, as long as porn wasn't involved? Is it more about what's in his hands, or what's in his head?

I am sorry for what happened with your past gf though. Finding out she cheated on you.

I can't seem to find one man that doesn't look at porn. Porn is degrading to women

That's your opinion. There are a lot of people who are exhibitionists - they LIKE having people watch them have sex and they LIKE having people look at their bodies. Do you think that all the women who have set up webcams in their homes to show off their bodies and do sexual things for people to watch have been forced to do so? Do you think that when there are so many people in the world who like showing their bodies off the porn industry would need to resort to forcing women (or men, for that matter) to participate?

There's a couple TV shows on in my area that are reality-type shows about the porn industry - people with cameras follow people 'in the industry' around. These are very different sorts of people from you and I - they hang around naked even when lots of other people are around and they grope, grab, and basically engage in things sexual with each other even when the cameras are off.

so it makes me wonder if I am attractive enough. Porn is about 18 year olds with implants, which supports my insecurities.

And your insecurities are the problem. You also have a very low opinion of men, since you seem to think that the only reason they have anything to do with women is looks. If your SO thought that you would stop loving him just because you found a better-looking man, would you not be insulted? If you love someone, isn't it the whole package and not just looks? Why do you not think men do the same?

I wonder why men even bother with relationships since it obviously is not a satsifying experience with them.

I wonder why people even bother eating cheese since it is obviously not satisfying to them if they're going to eat vegetables and meat and all those other things. Why not JUST EAT CHEESE????? Why isn't cheese beautiful and tasty enough to hold every person's interest all the time forever?

It's unrealistic and then some to think that you should be the total center of someone's life to the point that he can't even enjoy looking at any other woman. And you can NOT tell me that when you're in a relationship you never look at another man and enjoy his appearance.

I wonder why men always wish women weere something other then what they are and why men can't love women.

I wonder why women base their entire mindsets on false assumptions like "men always wish women were something other than what they are". It is simply not true.

I'm female. I look at porn. I do so because I have a lousy imagination, because I get horny, and because looking at an image of people doing interesting things together reminds me of what it feels like to do those things much more quickly and efficiently than if I were to attempt to conjure up a fantasy. I do NOT fantasize about past partners. What's over is over and doing that isn't healthy IMHO. I do NOT fantasize about men I know if I'm not in a relationship with them. I do NOT fantasize about the guys in the images - EEEW! I look at what they're doing and imagine what it would feel like to be doing that. I don't need a character in the imagining - it's about imagining the sensation.

Do I look at porn when in a relationship? Yes if he's not available for whatever reason. Then I look for images of people who look like him.

And if you'd read any posts by men who enjoy porn, the vast majority of them will say that it's the SEX ACT they want to look at, not who's doing it. They do NOT want to trade in their SOs for the women in the images.

I would like to propose some ideas to you, without even bringing "porn" into the discussion, and see what you think. I would like to propose the possibility that all or most men sometimes look at 'another' woman, and wonder what it would be like to 'be with' or 'have' her sexually, and that this does not stop once a man enters a relationship. Let's call this Proposition "A", and I believe this to be generally in the nature of men. (Look who's generalizing now! )

 

Now, I also propose that in spite of this instinctive tendency, not every man behaves the same way in response to this instinct. I maintain that observing women and imagining women from a sexual perspective is not the same as wanting or intending to take action in that direction (my Proposition B), does not inherently equate to a dissatisfaction with one's partner or relationship (Proposition C), or a desire that one's partner change or "be more like" the other woman (Proposition D.)

Great post, Trimmer. :bunny:

I particularly like this bit above. I was having some trouble on another thread verbalizing what I perceive as not a difference in gender roles, but rather as the difference gender makes in our thought processes.

As human animals, we all have more in common than different. But I think these "differences" extend further than just our genatalia.

While it's true that human animals have the ability to choose intellect over instinct, I don't think in a discussion of 2-dimensional porn we're necessarily seeing a failure to do that.

By instinct, a man would most likely spread his DNA as far and wide as possible. 'Intellect over instinct' allows him to choose not to do that, but rather to limit his gene-pool offerings to one partner of his choosing.

In general terms, men not only tend to look at other women... but they also tend to be also quite hostile toward potential rivals when guarding their own mate. What's sauce for the gander is NOT sauce for the goose. A woman already knows that she's the natural parent of a child when she gives birth. A man has to depend on having protected his interests.

It seems to me that our "instincts" aren't something that we're always consciously aware of when we make our choices. Men will most often say... "I look at porn because I like to look at porn". What's the big deal?.

And I think that kind of guy has a good point. The advantage of 2-dimensional porn would be that he can assuage his instincts in a safe envionment, one that doesn't affect his intellectual choice.

Truly Trimmer, I accept your propositions above as correct in the majority. There are exceptions to every rule, of course... but in the main, I think you're fairly accurate in what you've said.

Problem is... there are ALWAYS those who would carry it too far. They leave the fairly safe environment of "two-dimensional" porn and enter a 3-dimensional environment where REAL cheating does in fact take place. And even though bodies never touch... emotional damage is done.

So yes... in answer to the OP's initial question... I do see a HUGE divergence between porn which is interactive and that which is not. The one invests emotional energy into another partner, outside the marriage... the other doesn't.

While it's true that sometimes 2-dimensional porn use can become obsessive or compulsive... it's NOT true that all porn use necessarily will. Without an expenditure of energy outside the relationship, and when that same "emotional energy" is not withheld from a partner... I don't see any relationship threat. (Although I can't say that porn itself isn't damaging at a sociatal level, affecting thousands of lives adversely. )

I just had to say... I really enjoyed the honesty of your posts on this thread. Very candid, and enlightening.

:bunny:

Trimmer:

"Indeed, which is why I became so fascinated when you offered the judgment that I was treating my partner in a crappy way."

I am sure it works out for you to and that is what you settle for. It would be "crappy" for me personally.

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"Technically correct, but you make statements like these:"

And technically, you are getting hung up on a technicality that isn't helpful to this discussion. Just add.. "some" in front of any word that is "guys" or "men". Better?

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"Can you really read the quotes above and search your feelings about "I can't seem to find one man that doesn't look at porn." and tell me you are not generalizing to "all men?"

Well that statement is just fact, not being able to find one guy who doesn't look at porn. It's like guys can't survive without it.

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"...it's either porn or he is going to cheat" - could anyone ever argue, discuss, or talk you out of that?

Porn is like cheating. It's the South Beach Diet Version of the real thing.

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"...I would like to propose the possibility that all or most men sometimes look at 'another' woman, and wonder what it would be like to 'be with' or 'have' her sexually, and that this does not stop once a man enters a relationship."

Then why do some men bother entering a relationship. We apparently don't want the same things. Wouldn't it be logical to assume that some men enter relationships and still look and think about other women because some men can and want to have their cake and eat it too? They want a steady girlfriend who loves them. But they want other women too. So they do what they can to get around this. Via looking at porn.

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"Now, I also propose that in spite of this instinctive tendency, not every man behaves the same way in response to this instinct. I maintain that observing women and imagining women from a sexual perspective is not the same as wanting or intending to take action in that direction (my Proposition B)..."

If you are thinking about doing it it means you might as well do it and not pretend you are being loyal to your woman.

"... does not inherently equate to a dissatisfaction with one's partner or relationship (Proposition C)."

Sure it does. It means obviously your partner isn't enough so you are seeking something out else where.

"... or a desire that one's partner change or "be more like" the other woman (Proposition D.)"

I am sure guys wish their women looked more like women in porn then themselves. That is some men's ultimate fantasy after all.

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"I maintain that there are men (and not just a few of them) who feel these drives and urges, yet are also sensitive to womens' feelings, and who therefore successfully behave in a mature manner in their relationships, not cheating, not degrading their partners about their physical appearance, and in fact, being genuinely sensitive, supportive, and appreciative throughout their lives together."

How? By looking at porn and thinking about anyone from your woman's sister to the woman walking down the street? Some men think that is being supportive? Or is it supportive to pretend these things don't exist yet think them and do them when your woman's back is turned? Is that what supportive is for some men?

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"The reason I propose this is that I wonder if your true, root issue, is really not porn, but the more fundamental idea that men notice other women - even think about them in a sexual way - and your feeling that this represents a direct judgment on you. It sounds like what it is really about is:"

There is some truth to that. But with some men it is so over-whelming the mount of things some men want us to be cool with and expect to put up with just so we can have a relationship with some men.

If you were with someone that was on some fundamental level still seeking out other members of the opposite sex, whether it be giving looks, seeking out porn, or other general practices, wouldn't you start to wonder what was up.

Women in porn aren't realistic. I can't compete with them. I can't compete with the the thousand of images he is going to have in his head because of it. I don't have implants. I don't look like those women. Yet that is who some men put on a pedestal of beauty of what their fantasy is. Well, What if I want to be his fantasy? Why is that so bad. Why am I putting in all the work and effort to be with him and make a relationship work if all he really needs is to look at other women or pop in a porno?

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"and your belief that as a result of this,

"men can't love women""

True. How can men love women when the are all consumed with every woman but the one they have.

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"Is it really about the porn, or is porn just a very visible symptom to you? If porn were banned from newsstands and eliminated from the web, would that really solve your concerns?"

Maybe not. I am just over whelmed with teh things men want you to be "cool" with in the attempts to settle for the little scraps of affection he might toss your way. Not to mention how degrading porn is to women in general. If that is how men think of women in honesty then I don't think men like women very much beyond spreading their legs.

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"Would it be enough for you that a man behave responsibly in a relationship with you, or does it still bother you that it is in the nature of men to look around and wonder?"

Why do they need to wonder about other women if they are happy with you? The truth is they don't.

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"If you had a relationship with a man with no cheating and no porn, would it be OK if he masturbated? Would it be OK on a keep-it-private, don't ask/don't tell basis? Would it bother you what he might be thinking, or would it be OK with you, as long as porn wasn't involved? Is it more about what's in his hands, or what's in his head?"

I don't care if he masturbates. But yes, I would be hurt to know if he was thinking about other women and what he was thinking about. Ignorance is bliss but I don't want to be ignorant to the hurt. I rather know the truth.

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"I wonder if I will have any difficulties with trust as I move on, but I try not to assume "all women" are the same... "

Oh I have trust issues. I don't know how to trust guys when their actions lead me to believe other things. Anyway, I don't assume all men are the same...just most.

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Lady Jane:

"And I think that kind of guy has a good point. The advantage of 2-dimensional porn would be that he can assuage his instincts in a safe environment, one that doesn't affect his intellectual choice."

What does that say about his intellectual choice then? How much does his intellectual choice really mean if he is using an aid to help keep it? It doesn't sound like he is making a choice between anything. It sounds like he can have his cake and eat it too and get all his needs met and not think about how a woman's needs are different.

Frankly if that is the case then maybe men just aren't able or truely capable of providing a solid and deeply connected relationship and I should let that pipe dream go.

"So yes... in answer to the OP's initial question... I do see a HUGE divergence between porn which is interactive and that which is not. The one invests emotional energy into another partner, outside the marriage... the other doesn't. "

Umm, just because something is more interactive doesn't mean there is emotional energy invested in it. I am surprised you would come to that conclusion. We are talking in terms of typically how men respond and how women respond. Men respond to visual. Women respond to words.

What does that say about his intellectual choice then? How much does his intellectual choice really mean if he is using an aid to help keep it? It doesn't sound like he is making a choice between anything.

Sure he's making a choice. He could alternatively choose to have actual sexual relations with any/every woman who would allow it. If he chooses not to... he's made a choice.

It sounds like he can have his cake and eat it too and get all his needs met and not think about how a woman's needs are different.

You can turn that around, you know. Are YOU cognizant of the differences in a man's needs?

You're not a man. Neither am I. The best we can do is to TRY to imagine what being a man would feel like... but neither one of us will ever feel a man's feelings. So, who's to say that he doesn't "need" his imagination? Who's to say that he can actually control his thoughts in regards to other women? Maybe they come to him unbidden? I wouldn't know.

Frankly if that is the case then maybe men just aren't able or truely capable of providing a solid and deeply connected relationship and I should let that pipe dream go.

Maybe not... if they're required to do so on strictly female terms.

Look, we're not talking about hairy women with 'dingles'. We're talking about MEN. You can't expect a person whose body is marinating in testosterone NOT to think about sex, and you can't expect a brain that's fundementally wired differently to think about sex in terms that YOU might approve of from a female vantage-point. You and I have no way to measure the meaning of that. We might have an increase in drive just before ovulation or menses due to a rise in testosterone level... but it's minimal in comparison. Even then, our brains will process the information in terms that WE understand.

In bypassing live sex with a variety of partners, a man has ALREADY met us halfway, IMHO. He is already proving his committment to a "solid and connected relationship". (NOT TO SAY THAT FIDELITY IS ALL THAT'S REQUIRED, GUYS! )

Unless your partner is among those who have become obsessive or compulsive... I really don't think he can effectively understand your emotions regarding porn. He can process the information intellectually, but he can't really identify with your feelings. So, it's not that a guy doesn't want to understand, it's that he can't feel it like you feel it.

Sweeping generalization ahead, but.... men don't look at porn just to disrespect us or piss us off. And even when we tell them, "Honey, it really bothers me when you do that"... they don't see it as a BIG TICKET item, because it doesn't have real meaning to them. For an average man who doesn't have "a problem" with porn, these objections sound insecure, controlling, and arbitrary.

Umm, just because something is more interactive doesn't mean there is emotional energy invested in it. I am surprised you would come to that conclusion. We are talking in terms of typically how men respond and how women respond. Men respond to visual. Women respond to words.

Sorry kiddo.... I've seen it first hand. Come back and tell me all about it once you've tossed a cam-whore out of your personal business. We'll compare notes.