Christian: Definition

if god chooses to speak to his other children in a different way than he speaks to you, are you actually suggesting that those beloved children are damned to hell because they understand the same message in a different way?

It clearly states in Scripture that there is only ONE way to come to the Father. One way. Not two, three or four, ONE.

Mark 16:16

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned."

John 3:17

"For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

Acts 4:12

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Acts 16:31

"And they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house""

I could go on and on, the premise is that only through believing in Christ Jesus, can we be saved.

yes you could go on, moose, and you do.

go back and study the word 'believe'.

i believe my car will get me to work. so what? unless i get in the car and drive it there i'm never going to leave the house.

belief in god and in jesus as the son of god without doing what he says is the same as believing my car will get me to work and never driving it.

DOING what god says is belief. driving the car. BEING like christ.

read your examples again, knowing what the word believe means in that context.

there IS only one way to the father, it's by BEING LIKE CHRIST. christians DON'T have a monopoly on that, moose. god is not restricted by a book, i don't care how inspired its writers. the bible is a book of stories revealing a religious truth. don't limit the god you love, it's deeply unworthy of you.

go back and study the word 'believe'.

Nothing frustrates me more than someone telling me to go back and study this or that.....understand this, I know what the word, "believe" means!

To accept as true, geniune or real, to hold an opinion, to consider to be true or honest......need more?

i believe my car will get me to work. so what? unless i get in the car and drive it there i'm never going to leave the house.

 

belief in god and in jesus as the son of god without doing what he says is the same as believing my car will get me to work and never driving it.

Before your car can get you to work, it has to exsist, correct? Christians don't exsist until they believe in Christ Jesus. When one TRULY accepts Christ, all of the traits that Jesus displayed are automatically instilled into the believer. These traits are often reffered to as, "The fruits of the Spirit." When you truly walk in the Spirit these, "fruits", become more apparent.

Furthermore, your car is VERY capable of getting you to work without you driving it. You're just used to being the one in control. A Christian allows Christ to take the wheel......

read your examples again, knowing what the word believe means in that context.

Don't insult my intelligence again.

there IS only one way to the father, it's by BEING LIKE CHRIST.

That's fine for you, not for me and countless others.

don't limit the god you love, it's deeply unworthy of you.

Where did you get that I limit God? Did I ever say that He didn't love those who aren't Christians? Did I ever say that He wasn't capable of doing anything? And, who are you to decide what's worthy or not?

Originally posted by Moose

To accept as true, geniune or real, to hold an opinion, to consider to be true or honest......need more?

yes, from you, yes. because you know better. because you know that's not the full meaning of 'believe'. you cannot claim to believe in god without doing his will. if you don't do what god says, you're either being stubborn or you don't really believe he is what he says he is. action is demanded. it is not enough to say 'god is real'. satan knows that much. it doesn't make satan a christian. what separates christians from non-christians is NOT their belief that jesus is god. it is their willingness to give up their life for their friends, as he did.

Christians don't exsist until they believe in Christ Jesus. When one TRULY accepts Christ, all of the traits that Jesus displayed are automatically instilled into the believer. These traits are often reffered to as, "The fruits of the Spirit." When you truly walk in the Spirit these, "fruits", become more apparent.

you are right. christian's don't exist until they believe in christ jesus. how many christians do you think, ball park figure, live in perpetual love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance? several billion? or a handful? you say christians are not christians until they display the fruits of the spirit. i say anyone who displays the fruits of the spirit is a christian.

Where did you get that I limit God? Did I ever say that He didn't love those who aren't Christians? Did I ever say that He wasn't capable of doing anything? And, who are you to decide what's worthy or not?

you limit god when you say the bible is the complete and final word of god. yes, the bible says the only way to god is through jesus. it also says that many who call themselves christian will be turned away from heaven because they failed to do the will of the father.

moose, you never said that god didn't love those who are not christian, neither did i accuse you of having done so. you said the only way to get to god is by believing jesus was the son of god. you don't think god lets non-christians into heaven, do you? they had their chance to become christian, they failed, it's over. right?

you don't like my use of the word worthy? i was complimenting you. i believe you to be more intelligent and open minded than some of your posts demonstrate. but i'm sorry. if you think my assertion that you're limiting god WAS worthy of you, i take it back.

look. i know you know the parable of the two sons (matt ch21 v28) but i'm bringing it up nonetheless. jesus flat out states that those who say they'll do the work of the father and don't do it, will have less claim on the kingdom of god than prostitutes.

a man who has never heard the name jesus christ or who has never picked up a bible or been to a church can still demonstrate christ to the world. he can be a better christian than i am because he listens to the voice of god in his soul and loves like christ did.

saying he must consciously bear the label christian is a nonsense, it goes completely against the god of tender compassion and mercy and grace jesus died to show us.

yes, from you, yes. because you know better. because you know that's not the full meaning of 'believe'.

I'm confused. Why don't you tell me your full definition, or the full meaning of the verb, "believe".

you cannot claim to believe in god without doing his will.

Thousands do everyday. Your statement isn't valid.

what separates christians from non-christians is NOT their belief that jesus is god.

I don't see it that way. You can't be a Christian if you don't believe Jesus is the Christ......

it is their willingness to give up their life for their friends, as he did.

So what you're saying is that if, "Joe", loves his friends enough to die for them, then he's a Christian and will enter into heaven? I'm sorry, but that doesn't even come close to what the Scriptures say.

how many christians do you think, ball park figure, live in perpetual love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance? several billion? or a handful?

I'm not even going to try to guess, not even give a ball park figure. What I will say is that there are a lot of Christians who've lost that desire to allow their traits to shine through. It's a shame that it happens but it does. There are a lot of reasons too, not to place blame or anything, but I'd have to say that some Christians lose that desire simply because people reject Christ's messages and persecutes the person delivering it.

you say christians are not christians until they display the fruits of the spirit.

I NEVER said that. I did say that those who TRULY become Christians will automatically posses these traits, and they will become more evident as their spiritual lives grow.

i say anyone who displays the fruits of the spirit is a christian.

And again, I say that's fine for you and whomever wants to believe that. But it's not fine for me or my house.

you limit god when you say the bible is the complete and final word of god.

How is that placing a limit on God? Because I know for a fact that He's alive and capable of anything. Thus, He is unlimited. What is placed in the Scriptures was placed there only because God allowed and inspired it to be in there.

it also says that many who call themselves christian will be turned away from heaven because they failed to do the will of the father.

Where exactly did you read this? There are several passages that tell us many who should be first will be last and the last first. But where did you gather the words, "Christian, Heaven, Turned away, will of the Father", to come up with true Christians being rejected?

moose, you never said that god didn't love those who are not christian, neither did i accuse you of having done so.

Maybe not in so many words, but you did tell me that I placed a limit on God, as if to say that He didn't have love for non christians. ( Or at least that's how I perceived it, sorry if I was mistaken )

you said the only way to get to god is by believing jesus was the son of god. you don't think god lets non-christians into heaven, do you? they had their chance to become christian, they failed, it's over. right?

Let me make this clear to you and everyone else I personally believe that:

The only way to come before the Father, go to heaven, have eternal life, ect. ect......is to believe that you are a sinner, and that you cannot avoid sin, no matter what you do. You must believe that Christ was sent by God to act as a pure, clean, spotless sacrifice bearing our sins so we too can be clean and spotless and able to live, eternally with God. Jesus rose on the third day and is now with His Father acting as our liaison to God. Without Jesus there to acknowledge that I, (Or any other true Christian), came to a point in my life where I accepted Christ as my Saviour who paid my sin debt, I cannot enter into His kingdom.

So it's not just a matter of believing that Jesus is the Son of God, there's a lot more to it. There have been some non Christians enter into the kingdom under the old laws, so yes, God did allow some non-Christians in.....but now we're under the new law and there is no chance that non-Christians can enter.

I also believe that those who've heard or read the plan of salvation and rejected it blew their chance, they failed, it's over. Yes.

you don't like my use of the word worthy? i was complimenting you. i believe you to be more intelligent and open minded than some of your posts demonstrate. but i'm sorry. if you think my assertion that you're limiting god WAS worthy of you, i take it back.

I understand what your intentions where, and thanks, but no thanks. Placing judgement on who's worthy or not is what got my crawl. Noone has that ability but God Himself......at least, that's what I believe.

look. i know you know the parable of the two sons (matt ch21 v28) but i'm bringing it up nonetheless. jesus flat out states that those who say they'll do the work of the father and don't do it, will have less claim on the kingdom of god than prostitutes.

Actually, it's quite the opposite. The disciples said that the son who told his Father that he wouldn't go work in the vineyard, but did after he repented was the son who followed his Father's will. Jesus then told His disciples that harlots would go into the kingdom before them. Why? Because of the way he was perceived. Because the son who lied to his Father saying he would, but didn't was perceived as the evil one, the one that didn't do his Father's will. When actually that lying son could have just as much claim if not more. It's not us to decide who's claim is larger than the next.

There's another parable right after that one that explains it even further.

a man who has never heard the name jesus christ or who has never picked up a bible or been to a church can still demonstrate christ to the world. he can be a better christian than i am because he listens to the voice of god in his soul and loves like christ did.

There is no possible way he could be a better Christian than you, because you said yourself he's never heard of Christ, never read the Scriptures and never visited a Church. You can't be a Christian without knowing Christ.......there is no "CHRISTian" without Christ.......

saying he must consciously bear the label christian is a nonsense, it goes completely against the god of tender compassion and mercy and grace jesus died to show us.

Jesus' death wasn't a show. It was a neccessary step in God's plan of salvation. Without Christ's perfect sacrifice, we wouldn't have a relationship with God. His death wasn't to demonstrate anything, it was an action.

Who here, other than me, think that being Christian also involves a belief in, and devotion to God?

I sure do!!!

we're going in circles, moose.

Originally posted by Moose

So what you're saying is that if, "Joe", loves his friends enough to die for them, then he's a Christian and will enter into heaven? I'm sorry, but that doesn't even come close to what the Scriptures say.

YOU said 'give up his life' means 'die', not me. to give up your life for your friends means to give up what you want (your selfishness) and live for others, as christ did.

Where exactly did you read this? There are several passages that tell us many who should be first will be last and the last first. But where did you gather the words, "Christian, Heaven, Turned away, will of the Father", to come up with true Christians being rejected?

matt. ch7 v21. "not every one that saith unto me lord, lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my father which is in heaven.

"many will say to me in that day, lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

"and then i will profess unto them, i never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

the word christian is not used of course but is evident since jesus is speaking about those who call him 'lord'. will of the father, heaven, depart from me (turned away) are all there.

and i didn't say TRUE christians would be rejected. i said christians who did not do the will of the father. a true christian does the will of the father. that is my entire point.

...there is no chance that non-Christians can enter.

but god can do anything, you said so yourself. do you think he would allow a peaceful, self-sacrificing, loving human being like gandhi to burn in hell because he was a hindu?

look, don't answer that. you and i are christians, moose. we are here to bring the god of love, compassion and forgiveness to the world. we are, at best, trying to interpret a message we can barely grasp. but god has placed his love in our hearts. proclaiming the eternal damnation of someone who doesn't think like us but who is nonetheless a shining example of humanity just because we may think we are justified biblically is a dangerous thing to do. if we're wrong, we've perverted god's entire message.

i know you mean well. i know you love god. but you preach a very harsh lesson, moose. yes, taken in isolation, there are biblical passages to back up what you say, but the message of the gospels of jesus christ is all-inclusive. samaritans, harlots, tax-collectors, publicans, sinners all are welcome at his table. repentance and love are what god demands. not adherence to a label.

would you stake your salvation on the fact that god is immovable on refusing entrance to heaven to those who live godly lives, who work tirelessly for others, who love without limits, who give all they have to the poor, who live as best they can in the way god commands them, who are christ-like, but who follow a different path to you? no-one has all the answers. paul said we all see through a glass, darkly. please, moose, leave some room for grace in your philosophy.

Because the son who lied to his Father saying he would, but didn't was perceived as the evil one, the one that didn't do his Father's will. When actually that lying son could have just as much claim if not more. It's not us to decide who's claim is larger than the next.

what an extraordinary interpretation of this passage. i don't know which version of matthew's gospel you're reading. in my kjv, jesus says that those who say the son who lied actually did the will of his father are wrong and that harlots will get into heaven before they do. he says nothing of perception or claim.

You can't be a Christian without knowing Christ

we disagree. let's leave it at that.

Blue... if you're going to use scripture, you need to it with its entire context.

Matthew 7:15-21

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

True Christians will not be turned away from heaven. When standing at the gates of heaven, and seeing Jesus face to face, all will say something along the lines of "Lord, Lord" ... some will be praising him, and others begging for the chance to enter heaven. The earlier verses are to warn us against false teachings, some people will teach wrong ways fully knowing that it is wrong, and others will buy into it knowing that it is wrong. These people are bearing bad fruit, and this passages simply warns us to stay away from them. In vs 21 when it says that not all when enter heaven, its saying that those who have taught and believed falsly will not enter.

This has become a circle. Its obvious that we all stand firmly in our set of beliefs. I know that I cannot fathom giving someone the "title" of a Christian without him knowing the saving grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, but some of you think otherwise. Honestly, this thread has become frustrating to me. I feel like I'm saying the same things over and over again, and I know that you guys must feel that way too.

Mat 7

Mat 7:15-23 Interpretation

Yet the image of the tree and the fruit also reminds us that behavior flows from character, and in Christian teaching character comes through being born again rather than merely through self-discipline (see Odeberg 1964:72). Our own best efforts at restructuring unregenerate human nature are doomed to failure (Gal 5:19-21). By contrast, a person transformed by and consistently dependent on the power of God's Spirit will live according to the traits of God's character because of God's empowerment, just as trees bear fruit according to their own kind (Gal 5:18, 22-23).

bluetuesday

would you stake your salvation on the fact that god is immovable on refusing entrance to heaven to those who live godly lives, who work tirelessly for others, who love without limits, who give all they have to the poor, who live as best they can in the way god commands them, who are christ-like, but who follow a different path to you? no-one has all the answers. paul said we all see through a glass, darkly. please, moose, leave some room for grace in your philosophy.

Do you help people as a result of your love for God, or do you do it for a reward?

If people don't want God's reward then they won't recieve it. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

I don't think God can be seduced by anybody's charms, or percieved goodness.

Their fate is God's decision, but don't delude yourself into thinking that they'll recieve the same reward.

bluetuesday

If you are going to do any serious study of the bible, get a more up-to-date version. You should avoid KJV, and use NIV. Use my sources.

Originally posted by BlockHead

So you are a salvation by works kind of guy.

Salvation isn't important to me at all. I'm more of an anti-salvation-by-sitting-on-my-ass-and-believing kind of guy.

moimeme

Was God being intolerant by kicking Satan out of heaven?

It's a story. You lack imagination.

Who here, other than me, think that being Christian also involves a belief in, and devotion to God?

What difference does it make what you do on Sundays?

The 27th verse in Chapter 1 of Genesis simply says that God created man in His own image. And the 7th verse of Chapter 2, of Genesis explains how God went about it. How is that a contradiction? It's not.

They're two different stories written by different tribes of people, one of which wasn't neccesarily even monotheistic.

If your Bible's so wonderful how come you haven't put more study into it?

I know, I know, but isn't true that even if Herod is dead, his rule is still in place until a successor replaces him?

Uh, it's not like they held elections. The reign of King Herod ended with his death. His Kingdom was divided among his sons. Herod Antipas got Galilee, Phillip got the Northeast, and Archelaus got Samaria and Judea.

It clearly states in Scripture that there is only ONE way to come to the Father. One way. Not two, three or four, ONE.

The Gospel writers were JUST MEN (edit: sorry, some were women). Some of them had never even met Jesus. Most of their stories were just retellings of things they've heard--a rumor mill. Can you tell me how two of them wrote about Christ's birth? Were they there too?

Nothing frustrates me more than someone telling me to go back and study this or that

Ha! No s***! You just like the idea of sitting back, quoting scripture, and condemning the unbaptized heathens to fire and gnashing teeth!

A Christian allows Christ to take the wheel......

Which doesn't neccesarily mean professing a belief in Christ.

Ghandi was a phenomenal Christian. Of course, he's in hell, and you're going to be saved.

those who TRULY become Christians will automatically posses these traits

If only.

Salvation isn't important to me at all. I'm more of an anti-salvation-by-sitting-on-my-ass-and-believing kind of guy.

What? How can salvation not be important to you at all? I'm sorry, but you can't be a sitting-on-my-ass-and-believing kind of guy, what good does that do you? You cannot call yourself a Christian and have that kind of faith. You said in a earlier post:

Being Christian is about living out Christ's message, whether or not you consider yourself saved, whether or not you wear a cross necklace, whether or not you've even read about Jesus, whether or not you even care--is all irrelevant.

That statement right there contradicts your latest statement. Though I disagree with about 95% of that statement, living out Christ's message involves getting up and reaching out to people

What difference does it make what you do on Sundays?

Being a Christian is a daily commitment, not just a Sunday thing.

The Gospel writers were JUST MEN (edit: sorry, some were women). Some of them had never even met Jesus. Most of their stories were just retellings of things they've heard--a rumor mill. Can you tell me how two of them wrote about Christ's birth? Were they there too?

2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is God_breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness... " The men who wrote scripture were inspired men, they wrote what God told them to. And just so you know, the man who said that there is only one way to the Father was Jesus, not someone who never met Jesus.

Originally posted by packersgirl

What? How can salvation not be important to you at all?

I don't live my life to "get something" at the end of it. Some people need that, I'm not one of them.

I'm sorry, but you can't be a sitting-on-my-ass-and-believing kind of guy, what good does that do you?

 

You cannot call yourself a Christian and have that kind of faith.

 

You said in a earlier post:

 

Being Christian is about living out Christ's message, whether or not you consider yourself saved, whether or not you wear a cross necklace, whether or not you've even read about Jesus, whether or not you even care--is all irrelevant.

 

That statement right there contradicts your latest statement.

Er... try READING my statement.

"antii-salvation-by-sitting-on-my-ass-and-believing"

The men who wrote scripture were inspired men, they wrote what God told them to.

As am/do I.

And just so you know, the man who said that there is only one way to the Father was Jesus, not someone who never met Jesus.

As quoted by someone who may or may not have been there decades later, tranlsated into a language Jesus didn't minister in, then translated into English.

The men and women who wrote the Gospels were not wholly eyewitnesses. Moose could write a Gospel.

dyermaker

Er... try READING my statement.

dyermaker

As quoted by someone who may or may not have been there decades later, tranlsated into a language Jesus didn't minister in, then translated into English.

 

The men and women who wrote the Gospels were not wholly eyewitnesses. Moose could write a Gospel.

dyermaker

Ghandi was a phenomenal Christian. Of course, he's in hell, and you're going to be saved.

Ghandi’s fate is God’s decision. If you have a problem with God’s decision making, then start a petition.

I don’t think you liked my last post. It turned your piggy bank into a lifelong struggle which most will fail. I guess it isn’t inclusive enough for you.

dyermaker

Salvation isn't important to me at all.

Let me guess, you strive for self-gratification, and the gratification of others.

Being Christian doesn’t require a person to be sinless.

Because some people like to invoke Ghandi, I will invoke Mother Theresa.

She wasn’t a humanitarian, a socialist, or a revolutionary. She was a good Christian.

blockhead, i think you are willfully trying to misunderstand dyermaker's point.

no-one here is saying throw out the bible. the point being made, i think, is that a set of selected writings that have been translated more than once; that in the case of the new testament were written by men and women who didn't necessarily know or even meet jesus, often many decades after his resurrection, need to be viewed intelligently, not merely literally.

jesus spoke of the law needing to be written on our hearts. the law of god is not contained in a book. it is contained in the perfect life of god, who became a man (and a jew) to show us the way, the truth and the life. yes, the bible is a godly-inspired source of stories. but it is not, it cannot be, the sum of god's communication with the world.

jesus was, is, and will forever be, the word of god. his example, his life, is the narrow path of which he speaks. those who follow that path, are christian.

it's interesting to me that in the prayer jesus gave us, no mention is made that we must believe jesus was the son of god. don't you think that's a glaring omission? don't you think jesus would have made sure to get that in, if it were the most important thing? if it were even somewhat important?

isn't it just possible that devotion to god, devotion to his will, seeking god for and in everything, asking forgiveness, forgiving others and striving for good over evil are the whole deal? and if they are not, why would god himself ask them of us?

and mother theresa was also a good christian. i imagine her and the mahatma have much in common and are, right about now, enjoying each other's company immensely.

Originally posted by BlockHead

Try explaining yourself. Save the mumbo jumbo for your close friends.

Anti is a well known prefix for "against"--She misread me, and I'm certainly not going to shed a tear over her lack of reading comprehension.

So you no longer find the Bible agreeable.

Your conclusions about me are usually incorrect, this is no exception.

It turned your piggy bank into a lifelong struggle which most will fail.

I never *had* a piggy bank. I never supported salvation by works.

I'm simply against salvation by faith alone, because it encourages people to sit on their ass and judge, instead of actually withdrawing something good.

Take your Bible and throw it in the trash because you certainly won’t benefit from it.

I simply don't care about salvation. We're different people, obviously. I certainly like the way I am.

Because some people like to invoke Ghandi, I will invoke Mother Theresa.

She wasn’t a humanitarian, a socialist, or a revolutionary. She was a good Christian.

Many are good Christians. Many aren't. Whether they profess a belief in Christ often has little to do with it.

Originally posted by bluetuesday

blockhead, i think you are willfully trying to misunderstand dyermaker's point.

Blockhead? Deliberately misunderstand me? Nuh uh. Time to read Revelations!

bluetuesday

no-one here is saying throw out the bible. the point being made, i think, is that a set of selected writings that have been translated more than once; that in the case of the new testament were written by men and women who didn't necessarily know or even meet jesus, often many decades after his resurrection, need to be viewed intelligently, not merely literally.

Gal 2:21

21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

dyermaker

Anti is a well known prefix for "against"--She misread me, and I'm certainly not going to shed a tear over her lack of reading comprehension.

Denigrating other may come naturally to so some people. You should try to suppress those urges.

dyermaker

I'm simply against salvation by faith alone, because it encourages people to sit on their ass and judge, instead of actually withdrawing something good.

Mat 7:15-23 Interpretation

By contrast, a person transformed by and consistently dependent on the power of God's Spirit will live according to the traits of God's character because of God's empowerment, just as trees bear fruit according to their own kind (Gal 5:18, 22-23).

dyermaker

Many are good Christians. Many aren't. Whether they profess a belief in Christ often has little to do with it.

The word “Christian” isn’t a synonym for “good person”.

dyermaker

I simply don't care about salvation. We're different people, obviously. I certainly like the way I am.

It seems like ego stroking is a factor for some people.

Originally posted by BlockHead

If something wasn’t communicated effectively, then you should clarify it because we aren’t here to decipher you.

She read it wrong.

Denigrating other may come naturally to so some people. You should try to suppress those urges.

Beam. Your own eye. Remove it.

The word “Christian” isn’t a synonym for “good person”.

I disagree. It's one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

dyermaker

Beam. Your own eye. Remove it.

I don’t remember a Biblical message requiring me to allow a person to save face.

Maybe this has something to do with the secularization trend.

There are people who are working hard to take the Christ out of Christmas. Likewise, I think some are working hard to take Christ out of Christian.

What is next? Eucharist sold in an adult bookstore.

Maybe sacrilege is becoming a popular sport. It is almost as popular as plundering the Church coffers.

would you stake your salvation on the fact that god is immovable on refusing entrance to heaven to those who live godly lives, who work tirelessly for others, who love without limits, who give all they have to the poor, who live as best they can in the way god commands them, who are christ-like, but who follow a different path to you? no-one has all the answers. paul said we all see through a glass, darkly. please, moose, leave some room for grace in your philosophy.

First off, the first five words of this post proves to me how serious you take salvation. Not at all apparently. Of course I believe God is capable of allowing anyone into heaven if He so chooses. Personally, I don't think He would. We are all sinners and those who haven't been cleansed in the blood of Jesus will not enter. Period. There is plenty of grace in my philosophy, plenty, it's a free gift offered to all, all you need to do is accept it. When it's that easy, why, tell me, why would God accept anything less?

Blockhead, you and I know what all of this is coming down to. Dyer is a prime example of how Christianity will be viewed by the majority of the next generation, thanks to society itself. It's going to be hard to watch all of this take place, but we've been told by God Himself that this will come to pass......Hang in there brother!

Originally posted by Moose

First off, the first five words of this post proves to me how serious you take salvation. Not at all apparently.

you don't know who i am, moose. please don't judge me.

Of course I believe God is capable of allowing anyone into heaven if He so chooses. Personally, I don't think He would.

what you think doesn't matter. neither does it matter what i think. but i allow god to be MORE than i can possibly imagine. he is not limited by human understanding. i don't assume there is only one right answer. you appear to do just that. be careful moose. allow that god knows more than you do.

you may be right, but so may i. this is not about who can quote the most apt bible passage, brother. it is about allowing god to lead us where HE chooses. god has led me to the conclusions i have posted. if you think there is only one right answer you are thinking how men think, not how god thinks.

Blockhead, you and I know what all of this is coming down to. Dyer is a prime example of how Christianity will be viewed by the majority of the next generation.

wonderful. it needs a shake up. god bless dyer for his wisdom.

It's going to be hard to watch all of this take place, but we've been told by God Himself that this will come to pass......Hang in there brother!

this is the most deplorable, badly informed comment i have ever heard you make, moose. you are accusing a devout christian of deliberately trying to mislead and of false preaching.

you have judged. may you not be judged.

what you think doesn't matter. neither does it matter what i think. but i allow god to be MORE than i can possibly imagine. he is not limited by human understanding. i don't assume there is only one right answer. you appear to do just that. be careful moose. allow that god knows more than you do.

God is more than the human mind can comprehend. Its like trying to explain ourself and our ways to an ant, they just wouldn't get it. But, God created us and knows us inside and out, what we think does matter. He knows our every thought, and its gotta be like a stab to the heart everytime we say something bad against others, slander his word, falsify his teachings, and lead others astray. Trust me, it matters what you and I think more than you realize.

You say you don't assume that there is only one right answer. But, the only way to get to God is through Jesus. I have often wondered while reading this post if you know the most famous bible verse known to man... John 3:16?

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

It is obvious in this passage that it is talking about Christ. I've known that verse since 2nd grade, and everytime I read it I'm in awe by the love that Christ had for us to be obedient to the cross and die for all sinners.

you may be right, but so may i. this is not about who can quote the most apt bible passage, brother. it is about allowing god to lead us where HE chooses. god has led me to the conclusions i have posted. if you think there is only one right answer you are thinking how men think, not how god thinks.

This isn't a contest, quoting scriptures is a beautiful thing. God will lead each individual down the path of righteousness if they so choose. How do you know what God thinks? Please, point out to me in scripture where it says that there is another way to heaven other than Jesus Christ? Sure, God could let anyone in. But scripture clearly states that the only way to heaven is through saving faith in Jesus Christ.

Compassion is a gift we all are able to give if we wish to. There are any number of human opinions about the rules and rituals of salvation. No human can freely give or expect salvation.

Christianity nor any other religion is a country club where a person pays their dues and they are suddenly entitled to privileges denied others. There is example of the Greek woman who begs Christ for help (Matthew 7:24-7:30), Christ saying to her, "'Let the children first be fed, for it is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs. But she answered him, 'Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs.'" Undoubtedly people could argue about the meaning of that passage, just like numerous other passages from the Bible.

Living a Christian life is not distilling Christ out of it, regardless of a person's view on his divinity, it's being influenced by Jesus and how He chose to live as a human being.

"Way back in seminary school they taught us to petition the lord with prayer."

Petition the lord with Prayer!" - Jim Morrison

What is the meaning of a Christian you say?

It all summed up for me when I saw a bumper sticker on a car that said "I brake for JC and the gang"

Originally posted by Moose

What is everyone's take on the meaning of being a Christian?

I believe that it's like "vegetarian" someone who consumes vegetables - as the name implies. Whether they ONLY consume veggies or if their personal vegetarian style means simply eating no meat, doesn't matter to anyone but them.

A CHRISTian is someone who acknowledges that Jesus was Christ and believes in what Christ taught and uses Christ's life as a road-marker for their own life, accepting Jesus Christ as their personal savior. I don't think it matters how a person accepts Jesus as Christ--whether it is when they are alone and have some type of experience, or if they want to make it public with one of the many symbols and traditions such as baptism. They are Christian in their soul and no matter how public the ceremony, the pact is made between them and God/Jesus alone. Even with all of the organized religions, no two Christians are alike, and I don't think they need to be.

I don't know if or what God or Jesus has said to anyone else -- but I doubt if He (They?) say the exact same thing to every person who hears or feels Jesus communicate with them. It's too personal to categorize.

Anyway, that's my "take" on the meaning of being a Christian!

Please, point out to me in scripture where it says that there is another way to heaven other than Jesus Christ?

you know as well as i do there's no passage that explicitly says 'don't follow jesus, he ain't the one.' the writings that eventually formed the bible were chosen because they promoted jesus as the christ. those that didn't were left out.

but there are plenty of passages in which jesus fails to tell people that belief in him as the christ is important. don't misunderstand me, jesus was god. i am a christian in the way you mean it. but the entire sermon on the mount is a glaring example where belief in jesus as the christ is simply not mentioned. and in a 3 chapter sermon (in matthew) on how to live, that's a big omission.

when jesus was asked explicitly what men must do to inherit eternal life, he said love god and love your neighbour. the synoptics all carry this message.

in john's gospel - john, who more than any other gospel writer focused on jesus' divinity - check out ch 15 in which jesus says if you keep my commandments you will abide in my love. and what are those commandments? that you love god, and love one another as he loves us. by THIS will we be called his friends.

there is no confusion in the message. jesus is god. jesus tells us what we must do to inherit eternal life. we must love god and be like jesus. you've had it from the horses mouth. what more do you need? man asked god what he must do, god told us. the end.

moose, you spoke of grace and the redemption of the soul, let me take you up on the point.

debating the redemption of the soul through the blood of christ is largely pointless if it's grace you're talking about. after all it's entirely possible that ALL men are saved through the blood of christ by the grace of god, grace which by its very nature is a gift to the undeserving. yet many christians hold that belief in christ makes you deserving, thereby negating the grace of god perfected through the sacrifice of jesus.

do you understand what i'm saying?

if sinners could 'earn' salvation through acceptance of god's free gift, god would not be granting eternal life to the undeserving, would he? he would be granting it to those who had earned it. if he says what you must do is accept the gift, he's placing a condition on it, and if you fulfil the condition, you've done enough. that's not grace.

grace is god giving you something when you've done nothing. no acceptance of christ, no good works. you're completely undeserving and yet he still pours out his grace. that's god. the god who loves the most wretched of his children without limit and graces them salvation. through his blood ALL are washed clean.

no person who is fully human can truly live like christ, who was both human and divine. we all fail, we all need grace. but what happens at the end of your life is unimportant. there is no goal, there is no destination we much reach.

god commands us to love because he desires his kingdom on earth NOW. we love not to get the reward of eternal life when we die, but to enjoy eternal life NOW. we fulfil his command to love because we desire nothing more than to give god what he wants NOW. our father is reaching out his hands to us, we take hold of his hands when we love our neighbour.

this is the most beautiful message you will ever hear, it is the core of our being. it is what god has been whispering to every human heart from the beginning of time. the message of love and grace christ died for is belittled when we reduce it to an exercise in semantics and who said what.