The marriage counsellor seems to be picking sides?

[Sheba]

My husband and I saw our marriage counsellor today and I was left very confused by the session.

 

The background is that we first saw the counsellor in December after my 16 year old son got fed up with hearing my husband, his stepfather, calling me names. My son and my daughter both told me they felt I was abused and I realized how terrible my marriage was for them.

 

We have been going to counselling regularly since early February. Last week, my husband lost it in the counsellor's office, started swearing at me and calling me names and stomped out. Amazingly, he agreed to go today.

 

Our counsellor tends to lecture lots and ask little. Today, she gave us both some instruction on how we communicate poorly and what each of us needs from the other. However, she also did the following:

 

1. She told him how glad she was that he was back and told me that I had a "wonderful man". She did NOT tell him that he had a "wonderful woman".

 

2. She announced the name of a book I was to read and discussed it. She handed him a card with the name of a book he was to read written on the card without saying the name of the book aloud.

 

3. She told me that I nitpicked him constantly and needed to stop. She did not make any comments about the swearing and namecalling he did last week except to speak generally of how we needed to be civil to each other in her office.

 

4. When I interjected at one point to say that my husband had a lot of trouble speaking about his feelings, she interrupted me aggressively and told me not to criticize him. I did not mean to criticize and in fact meant to speak up on his behalf - it was a sympathetic acknowledgement of what is awkward for him.

 

I may be insane, I realize, but these things all struck me as odd. It seemed as if I was being cast in the devil's role since there was different treatment of each of us by her. I felt singled out in a bad way. My husband left the meeting very, very happy. Of course, later in the day we disagreed and he hissed "didn't you hear her? Quit nitpicking me! All you do is nitpick me!"

 

I have been subjected to such endless criticism by my husband that I get dizzy when I think of it - I can't think of a single thing about myself that is OK in his point of view. I don't earn enough, cook enough, clean enough, I snore too loud, I want sex too often, I speak too nicely to some people and not nicely enough to others, I don't wear the right clothes, I wear too much makeup, I should call my mother more often and be on the computer less - and so on and on. If this counsellor thinks I can take MORE criticism she is dead wrong. I have been criticized so much I often wonder how I can stand myself. And, the irony of me being called a nitpicker in comparison to him would make our children hysterical.

 

Can anyone help me see this counsellor's behaviour as something helpful? Am I over-reacting? If I am not - what should I do about it? Should I meet with her alone and talk about it? Should I talk about it at our next session? Should I keep my mouth shut and hope for the best?

 

HELP!

[AHIWON]

That ain't right. I'd ditch her and get another MC. You should BOTH be comfortable with your MC, not just one of you.

[luvstarved]

Wow, it does sound as though she is unfairly taking sides from what you have described but let me tell you something I have noticed about some counselors and see if it might ring true in your situation.

 

My H is also verbally/emotionally abusive - so much so that he believes firmly that *I* am the abusive one. We can read the same passage about abusers and think ourselves the victim. It's actually kind of creepy. My 3 kids (two mine, 1 ours) agree with me on the dynamic as I see it and have told him so but he takes that as "oh they are just trying to protect your fragile feelings" or similar. I DO these days engage in the fray but only in response to something ridiculous or unfair he has done. I am trying to stop that.

 

BUT - I have noticed in counseling two things. Since the abuser thinking they are the abused one is common, and the "real" abuser often having a characteristic of being "smooth" in counseling sessions...sometimes it is hard for the counselor to get to the truth of who the real abuser is.

 

Further, even once they recognize it, I have noticed that at times they can be overly flattering/supportive of the abuser - and my guess here is that they do not want them to storm out and bail on the counseling because then where does that leave you?

 

Most recently, my H and I were seeing a woman who I thought was being overly kind and supportive of my H's obvious irrational thinking (double standard stuff where his anger is caused by other people's actions and mine is an emotional issue that I must fix, for example)...yet one day she called me separately and asked me if there was anything physical going on and was I afraid. So she saw what was going on but also knew that to confront him directly would end the sessions before she could build up more trust from him.

 

Eventually, as soon as she began tiptoeing into the waters of his issues, he took that as her taking sides with ME and as expected - he wanted to bail, but instead we found another counselor - we'll see how that goes.

 

I would interested in knowing the titles of the books she recommended to each of you. That should tell a lot.

 

It does seem strange that she would feel free to accuse you of nitpicking. That almost sounds like handing him ammo. Perhaps it is part of her attempts to build trust, or to go to the extreme of trying to show that she is NOT taking sides. By focusing on you first, perhaps she hopes that he will give her credibility that he won't be able to reject by the time she gets to his issues.

 

The other possibility is that he has somehow charmed and manipulated her into seeing things his way and that continuing to see her will only make your situation worse.

 

I'd go to a few more sessions and see how it goes. Can you post the book titles she offered? I really do think that will tell you where she is going with this...

 

Good luck to you. This stuff ain't easy...

[Trialbyfire]

I would be more comfortable with someone who allowed the couple to find their own way, with a little guidance when things get out of hand. If the couple can't effectively use the tools for conflict resolution without the MC at hand, it will continue to be a downward spiral.

 

I would also find another one.

[dropdeadlegs]

I only went to marriage counseling three time with the same husband. I remember feeling just like you do now.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and defend MC.

 

Maybe the counselor addressed your H in a way that she felt would keep him coming back. That's the first step to resolving anything, keeping him in contact. She may have stated your book knowing that you could "handle" hearing the title aloud, and at the same time knowing that H's book wouldn't receive the same reception if stated aloud. I assume that the mention of him being "wonderful" was a way to draw him in. The same game could be applied to everything that was stated. She sees you as the one who is willing to do the work and him as the one who needs to be enticed.

 

Can you speak to her to question her motives? Alone, of course, maybe by phone?

 

I felt it was one-sided, too, like we were always talking about him and his thoughts/needs/desires and in the end HE wasn't willing to do the work and thought it was all expensive BS.

 

She may not be the right counselor for you. You need to feel comfortable.

 

I have no idea where my MC was going, but maybe I should have questioned the path. It was my first time and I didn't know what to expect. I assumed that it would be fair and equitable, but there could have been a method to what I saw as madness.

 

Just thoughts, I wouldn't have been happy with your results, either. YOU are paying for this and have a right to ask questions and understand the methodology involved. If you can't make it past a few visits, you'll never make it through to the end. And your MCer won't make the big bucks.

[Ripples]

DDL says some good stuff, Sheba.

 

If your husband is happy with your current MC, then I can only think he'd resent finding someone else and be less inclined to work at himself as a result, so would it be worth going to individual counselling for you?

 

You need to feel that your counsellor is supportive of you and if you feel unsupported by the marriage counsellor, I think you need to look elsewhere, for yourself.

[JackJack]

A good marriage counselor doesn't play favorites, they remain neutral on things.

 

However, maybe you should give it a little more time. Then after some time has passed, if you feel she is showing your husband a little more attention by being on his side more, then maybe a change needs to take place.

[Sheba]

Thank you so much for your responses.

 

The counsellor suggested that I read "Codependent No More" by Melody Beatty, and that my husband read "Angry All the Time" by Ron Potter-Effron.

 

When I was in the meeting yesterday, I felt as if she were responding to him in the way I have responded to him in the past: he would threaten to leave me and I would react by taking all the blame for the discord between us and trying harder to be the woman I thought he wanted me to be. That behaviour seems to have earned me more disdain, to the point where my 15 year old daughter begged me to speak to another adult because I was being called so many names and my 16 year old son wanted to defend me violently.

 

I feel as if she has been quite fascinated by us and does not want to lose her chance to help us, but at the same time I felt she was being hard on me and, yes, giving him more ammo which he promptly used. And, he is very charming and good looking.

 

luvstarved - what you say is so familiar. My husband forever tells me I am a bully and that I am a hothead. In his mind, we are battling equals, despite that I never call him names, threaten to leave him, etc... He does feel abused and the irony is HUGE.

 

DDL, Ripples -it makes sense that she is working to keep him coming back, but I don't know that she is doing so consciously and with a plan in mind or if she feels personally rejected by him and wants to bring him back.

 

JJ- I completely expected neutrality. I did not expect her to be my ally or his. Hence my shock.

 

Perhaps I should phone her and speak with her privately and tell her how I feel?

[JackJack]

I don't know if you should call her or not right now. If it were me, I would just stay cool for right now and give it a little more time.

 

You will be able to tell after a few more sessions if shes really trying to help you or not by how she interacts with your husband. if its more so, than with you, then shes not being neutral. This is marraige cousneling, which is being together, workign together as a team, not individual cousneling.

 

If at some point you decide to change counselors, and your husband gets ticked off, you'll know this counselor was probably feeding his ego more so than trying to help and that your husband was enjoying the attention. Thats not what MC is about.

[dropdeadlegs]

I'm on the other side and think you have a right to feel comfortable and have some insight as to where this MC is going, directionally. I do think it should be a neutral territory thing, yet I understand that joint counseling of any kind involves spending more time on one person/issue while tabling another person/issue due to time constraints. How often are you attending sessions?

 

I have read your book, but not your H's. I don't remember everything about it, but do recall gaining some insight about myself and my patterns of behavior. From what you have explained about your situation, the books seem relevant to each of you (going simply by the title of his required reading.)

 

I'm somewhat needing to see some immediate results with counseling, no matter how small or insignificant. It is a long process that I have trouble with at times, but know that the most beneficial counseling for me was long term, about 4 years. I have seen several therapists throughout my life and really only clicked with one, and he was the long term guy. I have been more successful with men than with women, which may or may not say something about me. I was most successful as a teen, and tended to get bored as an adult after a few sessions, or several months. I'm certain that I have benefited from every session in some way.

 

I applaud your willingness to seek help with your marriage. I think my partner relationship ideals have become very simplistic over time. I'm to the point that if the partnership is so broken that we need extensive help to repair it, that I must simply be with the wrong person. People are always saying that marriages are hard work, but I feel that I have enough "work" in my life and I want my partnership (I'm not married) to be something that is pleasurable, not more exertion. As such, I may have many partners in this lifetime, because when it isn't working anymore I'm not hanging around. I am quite capable of compromise, communication, and forgiveness, but if my SO and I don't bring far more happiness to each others world than misery, I'm on the next train out of town. I won't spend time, money, energy, whatever on a relationship that requires too much of any of those factors. Surely I am not expressing this as well as I could, but I have spent too much effort on irreparable differences in the past. I made bad choices, but I will cut my losses earlier from this point on. The differences between me and my partners were too great to overcome.

 

This is just my opinion. I probably sound bitter or sad to some, but I don't feel that way. I think I'm much more realistic than I've ever been and simply won't live in a situation that brings me grief and pain anymore. I want to be happy, and today I am.

 

Good luck in your situation. I believe counseling can work in many ways.

[Topper]

Sometimes it is hard to look in the mirror. It seems you had some idea that the MC was going to straighten out your husband. You give the impression that you are blameless in all this. I'm not defending your husband here.name calling and yelling isn't a great way to communicate. What I am saying is you need to take a look at your responsibility in all this. Like they say it takes two to Tango.

I want to marriage counseling with my now ex she hated hearing what her shortcoming were. We went to 3 different councilors all pretty much told us the same things. I was willing to take responsibility for my part. She never would. She just wanted to hear that I was wrong and she was right. When she said she wanted out she also said she would not go to counseling because it didn't work.

[Sheba]

JJ - I think I am going to follow your suggestion and give it another chance. If I get the same sense from our next session, I will call her afterwards or make an appointment to see her alone.

 

DDL - In a way I think that your approach sounds sensible and appealing, though I dream of one of those long and loving, secure relationship. I am sure that I could learn from you about not being so co-dependent - I am really hating myself today and taking a walk down Drama Queen Alley with thoughts like "even the counsellor can see I am not good enough".

 

Topper - of course there is truth in what you say. My husband's actions are so objectively "wrong" that it is easy for me and others to see him as the "bad one".

 

For his part, he has not admitted any mistakes, yet. At this point he just blames me for making him angry and simply says he would not be abusive if it were not for me.

 

And, I know that I have made mistakes. In fact, some days it is hard for me to see myself as anything but a person who has made one mistake after another, including alienating my husband to the point that I am sure neither one of us can remember what he thought he saw in me in the first place. I wonder always why he stays when he is so desperately unhappy with me.

 

I know I need help learning to resist my tendency to try to avert disaster before it happens and express my feelings in a non-blaming manner, among other things. I need to learn to bite my tongue when I am angry and think more carefully about whether my complaint is worth expressing at all. I am sure there is more and realize that I lack a lot of insight. His anger issue has really overwhelmed every other problem.

 

Oh, and I can guarantee that BOTH of us are at the counsellor's expecting her to straighten the other one out.

[luvstarved]

Judging from the book titles, it does sound as though the counselor has the situation pretty well pegged so I don't think that he is deluding her with charm...

 

Topper does make a good point too. I have a tendency to blame my H because of the extreme mean-spiritedness and over-the-top nature of his behavior, but I have looked into myself deeper lately and do know that there are things I have been doing to contribute too (withdrawing, being sarcastic, acting the martyr). AND the codependent thing. Bending over backward to try to do whatever I can to try to appease him, and by so doing, setting myself in a situation whereby my life revolves around him and his behaviors.

 

I don't know if any of this rings true, but I learned this through writing in a journal, particularly my take on unpleasant incidents. I realized that I am "enabling" him and also conducting my life according to him.

 

But I wonder whether the counselor did have a point on the nitpicking. I am just saying you should give it real thought and see if there is anything there. You could be picking to punish your husband at times when he IS being reasonable and you feel you can "get away with it". I certainly have done that in my case.

 

I think that the counselor is treading lightly with him because emotionally abusive people are VERY hard to change. Your H has already stormed out once and twice so far in counseling my H bailed as soon as the counselor started in on HIS issues. So that may be why the counselor seems to be focusing on you, to get your H to feel that she knows what she is talking about, so it will be less possible to call her incompetent later (although that is exactly what my H did in both cases).

 

So I would hang in there for now. If things still seem off after another session or two, perhaps you should call her privately and express your concern.

 

The only other thing I can say about marriage counselors is that, sadly, a majority of them are not effective. I went to two that my H ultimately declared full of crap, and I have to admit, we went in there blind not knowing what that counselor's philosophy and approach were.

 

This time before choosing a new counselor I did research and found one that makes his philosophy and approach clear. He gave us a book to read that explains all this and my H and I are both reading it. This way, we know what he thinks and where he plans to focus efforts, and decide early on whether we think it might work for us. We have only seen him once so far, so I don't have anything more than hope to report!

(FYI the book is called "The New Rules of Marriage" by Terrence Real)

 

So, for future reference, I would suggest getting information on the counselor's mindset right up front and mutually decide with your H whether it aligns with your beliefs and expectations...

 

Good luck, please keep us posted.

[dropdeadlegs]

Sheba, I am not deluding myself that I am still desperate to believe in and achieve "happily ever after" because I certainly am. I want someone to grow old with. I hate starting over, and over, and over. It's just the "happily" part I am more focused on after two bad marriages that involved a lot of enabling on my part. I want nothing more than my current R to be the one that stands the test of time. I've had terrible self esteem issues and my R's enforced that. That lack of self esteem allowed me to choose partners that couldn't be more wrong for me, and I for them, unless we both made very big changes. I feel those changes were so huge that we couldn't work on any marriage until we had the capacity to work on ourselves first. Counseling takes time and money and we all needed intense IC, and there wasn't enough of the time and money to afford enough of either and produce changes that were rapid enough to salvage my marriages. I have worked on myself through some counseling and some self help books. I think the biggest improvement was in finding a healthier man that makes it so easy to be with. We both have issues, but they seem more compatible than my past liaisons. Our communication is far better.

 

Topper said it takes two to tango, and I couldn't agree more. If me or my tango partner are stepping on another's toes too often, I think we might be more compatible with new tango partners. Or maybe a different dance altogether. Maybe he can tango, but I can only waltz. In that case, I would be happier with a waltzing partner.

 

luvstarved has more clearly said many things I believe to be true. Not all counselors are a good match for all couples. I like that they are now seeing someone that is outlining the intended approach and clearly stating his philosophy in achieving their goals. Going in blind is what most of us do, especially if we have never sought counseling in the past. Many of our insurance providers require use of only certain professionals "on the approved list" and I think that is unfair. Those on the list are generally willing to accept lesser payments, and may be doing so in attempts to increase their clientel. They may be relatively new and inexperienced. Some insurances will not even cover MC and it has to coded as something else to get them to pay at all.

 

It's tough and will take toughness to get through it all. I hope it works for you as you have a strong desire to remain in your marriage. I guess what I came out with in my brief MC experience was that neither of us had a strong enough desire or the personal capacity to do all the necessary work.

[Topper]

Legs Maybe you and your SO should forget the Tango and the Waltzing. Instead focus on a really sexy Latin dance. One that keeps him focused on your sexy legs.

[dropdeadlegs]

Legs Maybe you and your SO should forget the Tango and the Waltzing. Instead focus on a really sexy Latin dance. One that keeps him focused on your sexy legs.

;)That's exactly the type of dance we have chosen. Hope I never step on his toes and vice versa!

[Topper]

Might need to find a guy witha foot fetish

[Sheba]

Luvstarved - you are right that it is easy to lay the blame at his door when his bad behaviour is so dramatic, while mine may be more subtle. To borrow the analogy, it is as if I am stepping on his toes and in response he is kicking me in the shins. The toe steps might hurt but they are easy to miss and at least apparently accidental.

 

I admit I see the counsellor's office as a place where I can air my complaints and he "has to listen" and can't yell over me/slam the phone down/walk out (oops, except he can!). As a result I have done a fair bit of nitpicking, bitching and complaining in that room. I will try to listen to myself more carefully to see if I am doing it elsewhere, too.

 

The counsellor I am seeing does make sense to my husband and I, so far. We went to see two others, both men. The first one lasted until he suggested my husband make a change in his behaviour. The second one we saw once. This counsellor has the advantage of being very ladylike and genteel - a type who is appealing to my husband and will, I believe, inspire him to behave as well as he is able.

 

Luvstarved - you sound as if you have been on this road a while. I would like to know more about your story, if you are willing to tell me. Do you have kids? How long have you been married? How long have you been in counselling? Has your husband gained any insight?

 

Legs -you are right, counselling is very, very difficult. I feel like giving up on the marriage each and every time we have a session. The pattern has been: session -> HUGE WAR -> truce -> sweetness & passion -> session -> etc.... So, there are those moments in between when we are good to each other and I guess that keeps us both going. Still, it is exhausting and all this crying is giving me more wrinkles.

 

The counsellor has told me that she "can see how much he loves you" and that I am "the woman he has been looking for". This also keeps me going, but I am his fourth wife. And, he doesn't dance at all.

[Maran]

While it is difficult to offer advice to your counselor or your husband, it is possible to see that you are not feeling validated in your marriage counseling sessions, which isn't okay. Whatever he or you have done in the relationship, you both need to feel equally validated by the counselor and marriage counseling needs to be a neutral space. Let your counselor know how you feel.

 

As far as your relationship with your husband -- try something. Ask him to play a game with you -- you both write down what you genuinely like about eachother and then sincerely tell eachother. Neither of you would be making the effort to go to marriage counseling if you didn't care for eachother and believe you have something worth saving.

[Mr. Lucky]

Sometimes it is hard to look in the mirror. It seems you had some idea that the MC was going to straighten out your husband. You give the impression that you are blameless in all this. I'm not defending your husband here.name calling and yelling isn't a great way to communicate. What I am saying is you need to take a look at your responsibility in all this. Like they say it takes two to Tango.

Wow, I had the same impression, Sheba, when I read your original post. Your H's anger is definitely a damaging trait, but it's only one of a list of damaging traits that spouses have. Some parts of your post (such as your desciption of feeling slighted when she did not announce your H's book title) have a slight "holier than thou" feeling to them that indicate that you may have as much to work on as your H. Not an unusual situation as I came to the same humbling realization in my own IC. Good luck in your efforts...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Sheba]

Holier than thou? An interesting observation and one that has some resonance. I think my husband and I have developed a lot of bad habits of interaction in response to each other. It might be fair to say that I think of myself as "the good one".

 

I need comments like yours, Mr. Lucky. It helps me to see myself in the eyes of others, so I can STOP my own toxic behaviour. So, thank you.

 

Despite that I do know I need to learn, I also know I need to feel the counsellor is on the side of the marriage, not me or him. We really need help!

[Enema]

Sounds more to me like she's trying to make sure the husband doesn't feel alienated and pressured.

 

Do you think he's more likely to stick around if, at first, she sounds very supportive and understanding?

 

Don't get so caught up in "who's wrong" and focus on the end result.

[Sheba]

I am sure he is more likely to stay around if she supports his point of view. Wouldn't anyone? He is only human and, despite that he does not say so, I am sure he is ashamed of some of his behaviour. He has hit me - not really hard, but left bruises last time. He gets angry at me and tells me to "**** off" and "shut up" and calls me "stupid" and "crazy". Etc... I am sure he has not enjoyed sitting there and having that conduct described to another person.

 

So, if the goal of the counsellor is to keep him in the room, I can see the need for that. However, from my point of view, I need to know that this is her agenda - that she is working on the marriage.

 

At the same time, it IS hard to take because I have been criticized by him in every conceivable way - including being told that "no one would put up with me", that my "feelings don't count" and so forth. I spent a few years feeling terribly unworthy, before I finally started to feel angry, and I could feel myself slipping back into unworthy at that last counselling session.

 

Unworthy is no place to be to work on a marriage or anything - I just feel hopeless and like giving up.

[Mr. Lucky]

He is only human and, despite that he does not say so, I am sure he is ashamed of some of his behaviour. He has hit me - not really hard, but left bruises last time. He gets angry at me and tells me to "**** off" and "shut up" and calls me "stupid" and "crazy". Etc... I am sure he has not enjoyed sitting there and having that conduct described to another person.

Wow. Don't know if I hadn't read your other posts closely enough, but this is the first time I caught that he had hit you. Under those circumstances, I'd be out the door. I've seen this dynamic play out in my in-law's marriage for 30 years and it never goes away. Do you want to live in fear for the rest of your life? You say "last time" like there has been more than once...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Sheba]

Mr. Lucky - odd though it may sound, the hitting has - so far - been less hurtful than all of the stuff that has been said to me.

 

He has hit me on two occasions - both times in the upper arms. On one other occasion he squeezed my hand hard enough to leave bruises. On countless occasions he has called me stupid and crazy and told me I have ruined his life and that he had had it etc... Then, a few days later he is telling me he loves me and that I make his life worth living. Not that he apologizes, mind you. He doesn't. He harbours his feelings of justification and doesn't give them up.

 

Too much, I know. Hence the counselling.

 

I wouldn't say that I feel physically unsafe, though perhaps I am foolish. It is my feelings that have taken the biggest beating.

 

What have I done to provoke this, you might wonder. Well, I am an insecure person. My insecurity has lead me to berate him for a number of things. I once told him that if he was staring at anyone's ass it should be mine, after catching sight of him gawking at a young girl. That lead to a war, and he has never forgiven me for that comment. I am prone to making snide comments when he watches "titty TV", which infuriates him. My other offences are similar. We also have a HUGE problem because I harbour a belief that he participates in a flirtation with a woman at work and I feel very hurt and threatened by that. Several times we have had huge battles before or after office parties because I try to insist he sit by me or, at least, avoid sitting by her.

 

He has never really described how this behaviour makes him feel, other than to say I am trying to control him (fair comment) and that I have no business doing so.

 

He also gets very upset by other things, like housework and money issues.

 

His angry outbursts make me feel more insecure of course. Why would I feel secure when he says I ruin his life? It is a vicious cycle between us.