We talked

[Kamille]

I don't really know where to put this thread since most of the posts leading up to this one happened in the Addiction and Recovery section.

 

Anyways, here is the we broke up because I couldn't accept his relationship to alcohol thread and the me mulling things through one, where I start to try and figure out why I was so worried about his alcohol and why I wanted him to change.

 

Anyways, we had dinner last night. He came here and I could sense that he was feeling resentful about how everything unfolded. I apologized for the way I had been acting and admitted that I now understood it wasn't up to me to decide what was and wasn't healthy in his life. I told him I had gone to an Al Anon meeting and of course his reaction was an angry: "You really think I'm an alcoholic don't you?". I said that I was going to Al Anon for me, that that one meeting I had gone through had really given me hope that I could understand why I had these impulses to try and control his behaviour sometimes.

 

He was litterally disarmed.

 

Anyways, lots of talk a lot of it difficult. I was oddly feeling very calm throughout it all. I felt like I only want to keep him in my life if we can manage to find balance where we are both happy again. He feels the same. We decided to try and see if we can get there again, one baby step at a time. At first he said he didn't have much hope because now he's the one who wants me to change: change how I approach problems. He said, "if we got back together how do I know your attitude will change" and I answered: "you don't and it's not a promise I will make. I am working on myself right now, but I am doing it for me."

 

so who knows what will happen. Like I said, I am feeling oddly zen about it all. I think I am happy to finally be rid of the anger, sadness and fear. I honestly have very little hope that things will work out. But I am not psychic so for now I will just take it one day at a time.

[datingmum]

well done on getting yourself to an Al-anon meeting. Take on your issues and hopefully your example could inspire him. Miracles have happened.

 

Also, I think that though we still think/care/obsess etc over these issues our partner may have (excluding of course our own issues) I do feel that there is a strange sense of release when you let go... just let go and control only what you can...YOU

 

[Kamille]

Also, I think that though we still think/care/obsess etc over these issues our partner may have (excluding of course our own issues) I do feel that there is a strange sense of release when you let go... just let go and control only what you can...YOU

 

 

So true and very well said. Letting go and taking it down to the level of working on myself has been a lot more fruitful then trying to figure out whether he was an alcoholic or not. I do feel calm and serene and hopeful, maybe not for us but at least for myself. I do feel hopeful for each of us in that I now believe that we will make the best decisions for ourselves, whether together or not. Letting go has helped me be able to stop trying to control everything in my favor.

[shadowplay]

Kamille, I was away from LS for a few days and was pretty shocked when I returned to find you had broken up with your boyfriend. I guess I'm a little confused because you guys seemed so in love and committed. A few questions, if you don't mind.

 

1) Didn't you know about his drinking problems from the beginning? So why has it suddenly become a deal-breaker?

 

2) Maybe this is the skeptic in me talking, but are you sure you're not using this as an excuse to end the relationship (commitment phobia)? It just seems like it sort of came out of the blue, and as I said it was present from the beginning so I'm not sure why it's suddenly an issue.

 

Personally, if I were in love with a guy as much as you seem to be with your bf, I'd give it more of a chance before I jumped ship. I'd at least give him the opportunity to change and see if he did.

[Kamille]

Kamille, I was away from LS for a few days and was pretty shocked when I returned to find you had broken up with your boyfriend. I guess I'm a little confused because you guys seemed so in love and committed. A few questions, if you don't mind.

 

1) Didn't you know about his drinking problems from the beginning? So why has it suddenly become a deal-breaker?

 

That's funny because that's very much how he feels: why all of a sudden was it a problem? He believes there is something else behind it all. There might be and I'm trying to figure it out, but I think it'll take me awhile.

 

But tbh it didn't really come out out of the blue.

 

In November, I had noticed he drank every day but didn't think much of it. I mentionned it to him and he said: yes I like drinking 2-3 glasses when I get home from work. 2-3 glasses somehow seemed acceptable and at that time, I wasn't really paying attention to see if it was really 2-3 or more. besides, when you start monitoring your SO's drinking, that's when you know you have a problem.

 

Then december rolled around, he was on break and every night was a major drinking night. I once saw him down a bottle and half of wine, followed with scotch. At home. On a Tuesday night. While I read on the couch. I mentionned something to him about it then and he told me not to worry - that he was overdoing it then and there but that he would not drink in January. That he was in control of his intake. I was starting to be worried but wanted to believe him.

 

He didn't drink in January, except four times which ended up being binges. In February he started drinking everyday again and that's when it finally hit me that alcohol was going to always be very present in our R. I tried to accept it but was finding it really hard, in part because I didn't even know how to begin accepting it. I brought it up with him again, I guess hoping against all hope that he could just cut back and that he didn't have a dependance. The thing about alcohol abuse it that it is as easy for the loved ones to be in denial as for the abuser. That's why Al Anon truly feels like a step in the right direction. I don't need to change him (my first impulse), but I can see what I can change within myself.

 

2) Maybe this is the skeptic in me talking, but are you sure you're not using this as an excuse to end the relationship (commitment phobia)? It just seems like it sort of came out of the blue, and as I said it was present from the beginning so I'm not sure why it's suddenly an issue.

 

Maybe it is an excuse to end the relationship. Yes I think I am a bit commitment-phobic at times. I think I'm one of those people who is just so happy on her own that it's easy for me to bail when the going gets rough. He felt, and I think it's true, that I was slowly removing myself from the R. I still believe the reason I was removing myself was because of the fear and anger his relationship to alcohol brought about for me. I was becoming someone I didn't want to be.

 

Personally, if I were in love with a guy as much as you seem to be with your bf, I'd give it more of a chance before I jumped ship. I'd at least give him the opportunity to change and see if he did.

 

Thanks. Again that is pretty much what we decided to do: give each other the opportunity to change. It is scary though since who knows where change will lead us. And since right now, he still doesn't see his intake as a problem, therefore it is still up to me to learn to accept it and to learn to accept that I can only control myself.

 

 

I was rereading what I wrote and it made me realize: part of my anguish stemmed from the fact that he kept telling me to trust him, that he was in control and to stop worrying when every single one of his actions made me feel that he wasn't in control. In a way, every 4th drink he poured himself felt like a little betrayal. Like he was unwittiingly lying to me because of the dependance, but that I was fooling myself if I chose to believe him.

Edited March 4, 2008 by Kamille

[marlena]

Kamille,

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but somehow I feel that your boyfriend's moderate and controlled drinking is not the pivotal, underlying issue here. I somehow feel that you are using this as an excuse to exit this relationship for reasons that have little to do with his drinking.

 

You have said that you do not like his constantly needing to touch you - or as you described it -pawing at you physically. To me, this is a key point, one that should not be overlooked or dismissed lightly. I can't help wondering why you would be annoyed by this when in being in love is synonomous to sharing a physical passion for one another.

 

And so, I can't help wondering:

 

a) if you feel insecure and doubtful about his true feelings for you

 

or

 

b) if you are uncertain about your own true feelings for him.

 

There is a feel about your relationship (even after four short months) that comes across as being contrived or superficial, almost as if you both want to make it forcefully work out, each for his own reasons.

 

Two people who fall in love with eachother do not sit and rationalize what is "right" and what is "wrong",nor are they judgemental about the other's life-style. Love is all embracing and all-accepting and knows how to respect and compromise. As adults, we owe it to our adult partners to accept their own personal identity without wanting to alter who they are.

 

If this is something that we can not do, then, it is not love.

 

I personally do not think your boyfriend is an alcoholic. It is unfair to label him as such and put him through all this tiresome ordeal.

 

Like I said, I have this intuitive feeling, that the problem runs much deeper than four to five drinks a night.

 

Just brainstorming along with you. Please, do not take what I have said in the wrong way. I am only trying to understand why a relationship so promising should come to this in just four short months.

 

Marlena

[blind_otter]

Two people who fall in love with eachother do not sit and rationalize what is "right" and what is "wrong",nor are they judgemental about the other's life-style. Love is all embracing and all-accepting and knows how to respect and compromise. As adults, we owe it to our adult partners to accept their own personal identity without wanting to alter who they are.

 

If this is something that we can not do, then, it is not love.

 

I have to disagree with this. I could not accept my SO smoking cigarettes. It was a constant issue, though I never brought it up he knew how much I despised it. And IMO I have every right to say - it is wrong to smoke, you are killing yourself.

 

My SO is also a recovering alcoholic. I also believe I had every right to say "what you are doing to yourself is wrong." It was.

 

He stopped smoking and stopped drinking. I didn't love him less when he did that stuff, I don't love him more now. Our relationship didn't suffer when he quit, he didn't hold it against me or resent me or say I was controlling.

 

Sure you can completely accept people for who they are -- but what if they abuse drugs? What if they molest children? What if they abuse themselves?

 

I used to be a member of a message board for co-dependents and I saw this all the time -- women who would accept completely unacceptible behaviors in their partners, who would rationalize it away saying that they loved their partners unconditionally and had no right to demand that their partner meet certain expectations. Personally I believe that you do have a right to demand that your partner meet certain expectations. We all have expectations of behavior in others, be they friend or foe.

Edited March 4, 2008 by blind_otter

[marlena]

BO,

 

I fully understand what you are saying.

 

But to me, having two or three drinks a night or going on a binge once a month does not an alcoholic make.

 

The intake of alcohol only becomes a problem when it begins to mutate the person and transform him into someone he is not when under the influence. As long as it does not become abusive, to me, it is not a problem.

 

However, it does, undoubtedly, become a huge problem and a dealbreaker when the user becomes agressive,violent or abusive in any form.

 

Many people have a couple of drinks after work to help them unwind. My parents did and they were anything but alcoholics. In fact, there is much substantial scientific evidence to support the theory that one or two drinks a night are good for releasing tension and pumping up the heart. Also, an occassional binge is not something to worry about. We all do it!

 

Whether right or wrong in my assessment of what constitutes alcoholism or not, my gut feeling is that Kamille's problem runs much deeper than her boyfriend's enjoying a few drinks a night.

 

By her own admisssion, he has always been in control and has never let his mild drinking negatively effect their relationship.

Edited March 4, 2008 by marlena

[Kamille]

Kamille,

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but somehow I feel that your boyfriend's moderate and controlled drinking is not the pivotal, underlying issue here. I somehow feel that you are using this as an excuse to exit this relationship for reasons that have little to do with his drinking.

 

You have said that you do not like his constantly needing to touch you - or as you described it -pawing at you physically. To me, this is a key point, one that should not be overlooked or dismissed lightly. I can't help wondering why you would be annoyed by this when in being in love is synonomous to sharing a physical passion for one another.

 

And so, I can't help wondering:

 

a) if you feel insecure and doubtful about his true feelings for you

 

or

 

b) if you are uncertain about your own true feelings for him.

 

There is a feel about your relationship (even after four short months) that comes across as being contrived or superficial, almost as if you both want to make it forcefully work out, each for his own reasons.

 

Two people who fall in love with eachother do not sit and rationalize what is "right" and what is "wrong",nor are they judgemental about the other's life-style. Love is all embracing and all-accepting and knows how to respect and compromise. As adults, we owe it to our adult partners to accept their own personal identity without wanting to alter who they are.

 

If this is something that we can not do, then, it is not love.

 

I personally do not think your boyfriend is an alcoholic. It is unfair to label him as such and put him through all this tiresome ordeal.

 

Like I said, I have this intuitive feeling, that the problem runs much deeper than four to five drinks a night.

 

Just brainstorming along with you. Please, do not take what I have said in the wrong way. I am only trying to understand why a relationship so promising should come to this in just four short months.

 

Marlena

 

 

Oh don't worry. I can take people's opinion wouldn't feeling offended. Plus bf and I are in tough spot right now so I think trying to figure out why and I know it isn't going to be a "snap and now let's go for ice cream".

 

The rhytm of our relationship (whirlwind) has always made me feel like I didn't have time to assess what my true feelings for him were. Within two dates he had decided that I was "the one". Meanwhile I wanted to take things slow, but was never able to enforce it. Since I was "the one", I think that prompted him to ignore a lot of the concerns I was trying to share with him. The touching-intimacy one is a great example of that:

 

I mostly wanted a balance in that. He was always coming towards me, which left me little chance to move towards him. Which made me wonder about my own feelings. I know new couples usually love physical intimacy, and when he would make an effort to not touch me so much, I would find myself naturally seeking out his affection. He would feel reassured and then we would be back to square one where he would always be touching me, often interrupting me in what I was doing and then taking offense if I said : "oh could I finish my paragrah?" or "I was just going to the toilet honey". You have to understand I coudn't move around the appartment without him giving or asking for some kind of affection. At times I felt like it was all about him satisfying his needs, without paying attention to mine. We had sex once or twice or three times a day, so it's not like he was completely deprived of affection. It's just that our affection style didn't mesh. I'm somewhat of a private person and I have a tendency to get lost in my own thoughts. When I get interrupted too often, I get annoyed. (Plus most of the touching was boob or ass grabbing, which I found more annoying then exciting. I don't get turned out just because someone grabs my boobs). But the touching we could deal with humourously and I was getting used to it as he was getting used to my need for space - not taking them that personnally.

 

He once said that he could recognized the extent to which he was overdoing it affection wise. That it was the first time that he felt so constantly compelled to touch someone.

 

 

You know, I think you might have hit on something else Marlena when you say something about the R feels contrived, and I actually remember that Shadow brought it up a long time ago in one of my threads.

 

I really wanted us to work. I was so amazed at how fantastic we could be that I just thought that all we needed were a few adjustment, and tahdah, strong and done. I voiced concerns about how fast things were going in the beginning, but he would always dismiss them. I recognize it's my own fault for not sticking to my guns. But right now we are going to see if taking things slower will help us find a balance.

Edited March 4, 2008 by Kamille

[Kamille]

Oh and about the touching thing - and as testimony too how fast things went- you have to realize that within two weeks of knowing each other we were in all practical sense of the term, living together.

 

So I understand wanting to touch someone constantly when you're out on a date. But I think your analysis might be different when you take it into account that we were spending 24-7 together.

 

And I know that moving in together so fast is most likely our basic problem. I kepr trying to find reason to go home and stay there but that would happen once a week and then I would be back at his place.

 

And when I would mention that we should slow things down, he would get insecure and ask me why. We don't have any problems, so why? We love each other, so why? He's very intelligent and very strong will so I would always end up thinking, yeah, you're right, why.

[Kamille]

By now I'm just thinking through LS, but as it suddenly hit me:

 

I just didn't feel heard in this relationship.

 

This links it all up together, from the theoretical arguments, to his dimissal of my concerns about the speed of the R, to my voicing concerns about alcohol.

 

I felt like he never aknowledged anything I said. Or he would, then he would dimiss it, or he would take it into account for like one day and then dismiss it.

[hotgurl]

I have to disagree with Marlena.

 

I don't think your BF is moderate in his drinking a bottle of wine followed by scotch is not moderate. binging 4x a month is not moderate.

 

Yes red wine has been shown to be beneficail. One glass for women and two for men. But kamile has stated is tends to be closer to 5 everyday. That is a lot. consider that a typical bottle of wine is 4-5 glasses.

 

also the constant touching can be annoying. I had an ex do that and I always felt it was manipulative on his part. He was forcing his will on me by that constant touching and when I objected it was always I love you so much I can't help myslef. blah blah blah.

 

Kamile my question to you is why do you feel you must change your views on his drinking. If it bothers you it bothers you. It is not like you've been dating for years or you are married. So why ignore your feeling and try to make it work?

[Kamille]

I have to disagree with Marlena.

 

I don't think your BF is moderate in his drinking a bottle of wine followed by scotch is not moderate. binging 4x a month is not moderate.

 

Yes red wine has been shown to be beneficail. One glass for women and two for men. But kamile has stated is tends to be closer to 5 everyday. That is a lot. consider that a typical bottle of wine is 4-5 glasses.

 

also the constant touching can be annoying. I had an ex do that and I always felt it was manipulative on his part. He was forcing his will on me by that constant touching and when I objected it was always I love you so much I can't help myslef. blah blah blah.

 

Kamile my question to you is why do you feel you must change your views on his drinking. If it bothers you it bothers you. It is not like you've been dating for years or you are married. So why ignore your feeling and try to make it work?

 

Well, for a long time I felt like I had but one of two choices: accept it or leave.

 

In spite of the litany of issues listed here, he and I really generally got on great. I admire him a lot and I feel like I have learned a lot thanks to him. Apart from my chronic issues about smoking, drinking and to a much lesser extent theoretical arguments and touching, I always had an amazing time with him. When I was able to let myself go, I really had an amazing time.

 

So I first I was thinking: I will learn to accept this, except my learning to accept it was me trying to convince myself that he didn't have a problem. So every time he would drink, I would feel like I was fooling myself.

 

Al anon has given me a glimpse of another road: maybe I can accept it not by denying that there is a problem - or even trying to establish that there is a problem - but by trying to understand why I was letting someone elses habits provoke so many strong negative emotions for me.

Edited March 4, 2008 by Kamille

[Star Gazer]

Kam - do you think this "zen" feeling you're experiencing isn't just really emotional detachment?

 

I think you're handling this remarkably well.

 

(((HUG)))

[sb129]

women who would accept completely unacceptible behaviors in their partners, who would rationalize it away saying that they loved their partners unconditionally and had no right to demand that their partner meet certain expectations. Personally I believe that you do have a right to demand that your partner meet certain expectations. We all have expectations of behavior in others, be they friend or foe.

 

Kamille, I think its great you are assessing your own feelings regarding your BFs drinking etc, but part of me thinks you are now shouldering an unbalanced amount of the blame for your recent rough patch, and I get the feeling that he has grasped that too, and will now use it as an excuse to not modify his behaviour at all.

 

Yes, you can be accepting, but he has been aware of how much it bothers you for a while, yet has made no effort at all to placate you, which bothers me.

Why should YOU be doing all the work to make your R work?

Give and take, right?

 

I just didn't feel heard in this relationship.

 

This links it all up together, from the theoretical arguments, to his dimissal of my concerns about the speed of the R, to my voicing concerns about alcohol.

 

I felt like he never aknowledged anything I said. Or he would, then he would dimiss it, or he would take it into account for like one day and then dismiss it.

 

I think this is very valid, from many things you have said, not only about the drinking.

It seems that you have now given him leeway to continue to do that though, by telling him that its YOUR problem to deal with.

 

Frankly, I think thats unfair. He should be willing to meet you in the middle, IMO.

Two people who fall in love with eachother do not sit and rationalize what is "right" and what is "wrong",nor are they judgemental about the other's life-style. Love is all embracing and all-accepting and knows how to respect and compromise. As adults, we owe it to our adult partners to accept their own personal identity without wanting to alter who they are.

 

This is true, but the bolded sentence is somewhat paradoxical IMO- if love IS all accepting, then why would there be a need to compromise?

 

Marlena, I agree that after four months, these kind of conversations shouldn't be taking place.

I also think that Kamilles BF owes her some kind of compromise though, esp seeing as she is working so hard to compromise for him.

[amaysngrace]

Kamille I think you are making a wise choice to step away from the relationship and re-evaluate it.

 

You are weighing in equally with heart and mind when considering if you should continue on with him.

 

You are being extremely responsible to yourself in that way. You will do what is right for you. I just know it.

[Kamille]

Kamille, I think its great you are assessing your own feelings regarding your BFs drinking etc, but part of me thinks you are now shouldering an unbalanced amount of the blame for your recent rough patch, and I get the feeling that he has grasped that too, and will now use it as an excuse to not modify his behaviour at all.

 

Yes, you can be accepting, but he has been aware of how much it bothers you for a while, yet has made no effort at all to placate you, which bothers me.

Why should YOU be doing all the work to make your R work?

Give and take, right?

 

You have to understand that since I gave up trying to control his alcohol intake, I feel an incredbile sense of relief. An overwhelming sense of relief. I feel like I am myself again.

 

I was reading someone else's thread on this topic and I came to realize that my main concern was whether or not I was making an unwise decision by getting involved with someone who, according to my own standards, has alcohol problems. My solution was therefore to try and change him, which now seems to me to have been incredibly unfair. We're both adults, responsible for making the best decision for us. Again, I can either accept it or leave him.

 

I know him enough to know he would not take advantage of me taking responsibility for my part in the unfolding of the R against me. I rather expect that he will take the next few days to think about his part.

 

Yet, that being said, I don't expect him to quit drinking. Alcoholism is a disease. I would rather leave alcohol out of the grounds for compromise, if we should manage to reconcile. His drinking is his to manage and he is managing it so far.

 

I will definitely tell him that I want to feel heard though.

[sb129]

You have to understand that since I gave up trying to control his alcohol intake, I feel an incredbile sense of relief. An overwhelming sense of relief. I feel like I am myself again.

I know him enough to know he would not take advantage of me taking responsibility for my part in the unfolding of the R against me. I rather expect that he will take the next few days to think about his part.

I will definitely tell him that I want to feel heard though.

 

Well, thats good. I am impressed with the way you are dealing with this you know. I am 100% batting for your team, and my last post was in your defense- possibly a little over zealous. I don't know your BF as well as you do!

 

I didn't mean that he should give up drinking..thats extreme, and counteracts your decisions.

But if you are working towards accepting it more, I still think it would be only fair that he works a little towards moderating it, or at the very least taking full stock of what it means to him.

That decision, or even the decision to evaluate it needs to come from him though, so you suggesting it would also be counterproductive to your current stance- I appreciate that.

[Kamille]

Well, thats good. I am impressed with the way you are dealing with this you know. I am 100% batting for your team, and my last post was in your defense- possibly a little over zealous. I don't know your BF as well as you do!

 

I didn't mean that he should give up drinking..thats extreme, and counteracts your decisions.

But if you are working towards accepting it more, I still think it would be only fair that he works a little towards moderating it, or at the very least taking full stock of what it means to him.

That decision, or even the decision to evaluate it needs to come from him though, so you suggesting it would also be counterproductive to your current stance- I appreciate that.

 

I know your advice is coming from a good place SB. I even thought it was very sweet of you to take my defense and be concerned that I was over-extending myself. You reminded me of my big sister that way whom I love dearly and who is always worried that someone will hurt me. It's nice to know I have people looking out for me, especially here, where I reveal so much of myself.

[sb129]

You can be assured of that.