Nice guys come last/ There are no nice guys

[Hkizzle]

When talking about relationships with friends and from research I've noticed an interesting trend.

 

A common complaint guys have, especially nice guys is: "I don't understand why she keeps dating jerks and ignores guys like me. Nice guys come last".

 

Whilst a lot of women say "There are no nice guys out there........."

 

Thing is a lot of women are putting their nice guy friends in the friendship zone, and just don't feel attracted to them.

 

There's a good reason why this phenomenon happens, I'll post why later. Just curious why you think it happens.

[collegekid491]

Girls want a nice guy but they want a man as well. Nice is seen as a weakness because it often doesn't bring out a man assertiveness or give the woman a sense of security, even though it usually takes a bigger man to be nice. Woman say they want a nice guy, fact of the matter is they want a guy who offers other traits as well, not just 'nice', and the guys who are complaining are the guys that neglect other traits and forms of attraction. Same for guys, I mean, if a girl walks up to me and is smokin hot but is dumb as a lamp post and bitchy, it ain't going anywhere despite the fact I would like a hot gf.

 

All about priorities, and like everyone they change as we grow older. The badass that can be tamed with a heart of gold they were looking for in their teenage years likely isn't the same guy they will be looking for when they are 40.

[Sam Spade]

This has been debated to death, but here is a new (and misogynistic, naturally) theory. Women care about emotions and feelings - but only about their emotion and feelings, that's it. In fact, guy's emotions - if there are any - are likely to be perceived as burden. The so called bad boys may be jerks, but at least they provide good entertainment, and won't burden the girls with any feelings/introspection that would require equal participation/emphaty. The so called nice guy (excluding the passive agressive wheeny fags) are more likely to be introspective, have feelings etc., and contrary to the popular stereotypes, women don't want and don't care about any of that as long as their own emotional juices are going, and what typically gets them going is a challenge, and the *promise* of hunting the bad boy down .

 

Refure away, if you can .

[Talby]

Because most 'nice guys' are anything but - they're insecure and dependent losers. Women want men.

[looking4 green grass]

I'm all about a guy with feelings. Guy's without feelings drive me INSANE!!! But I'm in psych, so maybe I'm weird. I'm the only person I know with a feelings chart on the fridge. lol

 

I have no desire to "hunt down" a bad boy. Been there, had lots of fun, I rather find a nice guy with feelings with which to settle down. At the same time, some wimpy guy who doesn't have the balls to kiss me or touch me (hold my hand, etc.) isn't going to get the time of day from me.

 

 

I have zero tolerance for jerks and wimps these days. I'm gone with the first crazy red flag.

[Hkizzle]

Yeah colleagueguy's answer is probably the best. Definitely explains the nice guy side of the issue.

 

As for "no nice guys out there" complaint, I think some women are neglecting to qualify meaning of the statement which should be "guys they are attracted to that treat them nicely".

 

The reason relationships are harder than most other aspects of life is because much of attraction is driven by subconscious factors. Subconscious factors drive mate selection more than consciously picking someone we know that might be a suitable partner. That's why so many people put importance in chemistry.

 

Chemistry is a way of saying there's good attraction but not being able to explain why.

 

The reason why there are such feelings in the first place is biological. Comes from our caveman days. We don't find certain qualities attractive by chance.

 

The bad boy characteristics that many women naturally find attractive are generally alpha male qualities. High levels of confidence, doesn't act subservient, socially adept, has a sense of humor (sign of quick wit and intelligence) slightly dangerous/ mysterious.

 

Alpha males help increase the chance of survival back in those days. A nice guy that gets bullied by other members of the tribe or gets eaten by a sabre toothed tiger doesn't help the survival of the woman or kids.

 

These feelings linger on in modern times, since we've changed little genetically. Therefore a woman that is prone to feel attraction to bad boys needs to pick better consciously.

[knaveman]

If someone wants to date a nice guy, then date a nice guy. If someone wants to date an a-hole, then date an a-hole. Quit bitchin' about what you don't have and spend some more time with what you do have. Stop over analyzing dating and life and spend as much time as possible living it.

[futago]

You will need to have a woman says, "Wow, such a gentleman!" instead of "Wow, such a nice guy!". Although a gentleman = a nice guy. But the girl will think the first guy as a man and the second guy as a wimp.

 

I think the difference is the mindset when doing something nice to a woman.

 

A gentleman = I treat you nice because I want to when I feel like it.

A nice guy = I treat you nice because you expect me to.

 

Do not live on a woman's expectations, live on your own's. You do not want to be 100% predictable, it will lose your attractiveness. And we do not have to be bad to attract women. Just be a man, confident and decisive.

[westernxer]

There's a good reason why this phenomenon happens, I'll post why later. Just curious why you think it happens.

 

Did you recently break up with someone (or vice versa)? All your posts are on the same topic. Just curious, that's all.

[lucy9216]

I really don't think there are alot of true genuine nice guys, there are some but not alot. There are alot of guys that think they are nice but it turns out they really are not. One of the guys I was talking to claimed to be a nice guy and actually used the reference of it is true that nice guys finish last, he even talked about the mother of his kid (his ex) on how she keeps dating jerks! he also claimed that he dosent play games or lie! well the guy played all kinds games with me, lied to me as well soooo it didn't turn out that he really was a nice guy. Genuine nice guys that are also men are very hard to come by.

[Talby]

Yeah, steer clear of anyone who says they never lie. They're usually the biggest liars.

[BoredPerson]

Nice guys come last. The reason is that women are emotional and have unrealistic expectations. Jerks can stir up their emotions and create the drama that they seek. The drama does not necessarily need to be fighting and arguing it can be anything that is dramatic.

[paddington bear]

Nice guys finish last - most of the posts above have this one covered. But I would add that they don't somehow do or say things in a way that sparks initial interest from women.

 

In much the same way, men have assumed I'm a certain personality type on first meeting me, want to get to know me better, then on closer acquaintance, find out I'm a 'nice girl' and then friendzone me.

 

Any post I read on this topic are always a bit blame-y on women - women choose the bad boys, they are so stupid, why can't they see the qualities in the nice guys.

 

You guys are conveniently forgetting male competition. Nice guys finish last because it is a race between the males of our species to get the prize - i.e. the woman. The woman is in essence a passive who can either say yes or no to the advances of the competing men.

[Talby]

Any post I read on this topic are always a bit blame-y on women - women choose the bad boys, they are so stupid, why can't they see the qualities in the nice guys.

 

These complaints come from the 'nice guys' themselves - i.e., "I can't get a girlfriend so women are evil."

[Hkizzle]

Did you recently break up with someone (or vice versa)? All your posts are on the same topic. Just curious, that's all.

 

No, I just find it an interesting topic, and seeing how people react to the biological and evolutionary explanation. I give relationship advice to a lot of female friends, and also have guy friends that are players. I notice girls are incredibly bad at spotting even the biggest players. But then again of course the players are deceptive.

 

But even for me through time, when I was a nice guy and treated girls when younger I didn't attract many girls, in my mid twenties when I was more of a jerk I attracted a lot of girls. Now I'm 30, much more settled down.

[Hkizzle]

I really don't think there are alot of true genuine nice guys, there are some but not alot. There are alot of guys that think they are nice but it turns out they really are not. One of the guys I was talking to claimed to be a nice guy and actually used the reference of it is true that nice guys finish last, he even talked about the mother of his kid (his ex) on how she keeps dating jerks! he also claimed that he dosent play games or lie! well the guy played all kinds games with me, lied to me as well soooo it didn't turn out that he really was a nice guy. Genuine nice guys that are also men are very hard to come by.

 

No of course I don't mean the guys that think they're nice and in fact playing games. The biggest players I know actually don't think they are players but nice guys. I found that quite amusing, I guess it's their own mind protecting them from any sort of guilt.

 

What I mean is the genuine nice guys attract fewer women than players, all things being equal. So if you put it down to success rate. A nice guy that liked and approached 10 girls would attract fewer than a bad boy that approached 10.

[paddington bear]

bad boys or bitches, if you want to use those terms, give off an air of confidence. That 'I don't really need you' confidence, 'I am my own person' 'my happiness does not depend on your presence in my life'.

 

That, I think is why women go for the bad boys mistaking their cocky arrogance for that confidence that comes with well, just being happy in your own skin.

[Hkizzle]

Yeah exactly. I wanted to get at the underlying reason behind why the inner confidence was attractive in the first place. There's a biological and subconscious psychological reasons for it all.

 

It's to do perceived value. A person that doesn't need anyone else is perceived by the other person as acting that way because they are more attractive.

[True2form]

In a recent high profile divorce case here in england a journalist wrote about the couple and how she, the woman couldn't have done better finally finding someone who loved her and her kid from previous relationship, was an amazing dad, very caring and loving but that she had still gotten bored with him and pushed him away. Unfortunately, I think this is the curse of the modern woman.

 

We wish for a nice romantic man who'll do what we want and what we expect, but we get it finally after all the years of drama....we're not used to it and then we resent him for it. I LOVE your caveman analogy, I'm all up for trying to link modern human behaviour back to cavemen, not only because it's totally true, I just love that we've retained instincts despite trying so hard to block them out.

 

I guess what I wouldn't understand is what happens when you're sexy alpha male goes from "Mr Mysterious" to "Mr I love you <<insert petname here>> and I can't live without you!!"

 

I love my boyfriend, but we recently hit the year mark and that's always been a difficult time for me where I've had to reassess what's going on. I've never actually got past the year mark! So I'm really trying hard with this one. I think what effected me as a woman in all these year long relationships was that I spent the whole first six months just totally head over heels because I felt he had my happiness in his hands, if he had broken up with me, it would have destroyed me.

 

He's an alpha male because he's very independent and charismatic but he's not a "bad boy." However, weirdly enough the challenge died for me not when he said "I love you" but I suddenly realised that if I was the one to dump him, it would destroy him. He's always been very nice and attentive and romantic, but before it had an edge....recently I felt like he was doing it because he had nothing else to hold on to and I was the only good thing in his life (because of the market crash there's no freelance jobs out there so we've had some awful money issues.) He was putting a lot on me. "Nice guys" can sometimes do this naturally. They'll bow to your every whim just to keep you. There's nothing worse and more burdening but I think the same can sometimes apply to nice girls. During my dating days, I was always very nice and understanding and caring...and I was still told I was intense... I guess because it seemed to the guy that I was a doormat and he could get away with a lot and that wasn't fun....I'm not sure but that's my guess.

 

Thankfully, my boyfriend finally landed an amazing design job with good pay and it's put him back in a busy, optimistic frame of mind. I hope this all makes sense and sort of links up with what you were saying before. One of my exes was the nicest guy in the world, still is...but it hit me that he has no ambition.

 

I see couples that have been together since the seemingly impossible age of 19 (or younger...but 19 seems to have been the trend) and I notice that the man is now in a very good job like an architect and the mum is an excellent housewife, cook, interior decorator (in the case of my friend Harry's parents.)

 

Nice has to be paired with ambition in my mind. If a guy's an a-hole I think the drama can sometimes cover up for the fact he doesn't actually do anything/can't be bothered so the woman is too busy fawning over him trying to win his undying love to realise he's a waste of time and energy. Make sense? Open to any other thoughts/criticism ^_^

[Hkizzle]

I was working in the banking industry till May then I resigned, yeah resigned in this environment, I wasn't even laid off. Now trading at home.

 

Funny you bring out the alpha male turned needy, because I've heard some bankers have been that way lately. It's rather funny the guy goes from not giving his GF enough attention to way too insecure and she loses interest.

 

Couples that have dated from an early age retain an innocence I think. Things are much more complicated after university, and yeah people that are emotionally attached become more attached with drama. That's why push-pull, hot-cold, often makes a person more desired then just being nice all the time.

[Sam Spade]

In a recent high profile divorce case here in england a journalist wrote about the couple and how she, the woman couldn't have done better finally finding someone who loved her and her kid from previous relationship, was an amazing dad, very caring and loving but that she had still gotten bored with him and pushed him away. Unfortunately, I think this is the curse of the modern woman.

 

We wish for a nice romantic man who'll do what we want and what we expect, but we get it finally after all the years of drama....we're not used to it and then we resent him for it. I LOVE your caveman analogy, I'm all up for trying to link modern human behaviour back to cavemen, not only because it's totally true, I just love that we've retained instincts despite trying so hard to block them out.

 

I guess what I wouldn't understand is what happens when you're sexy alpha male goes from "Mr Mysterious" to "Mr I love you <<insert petname here>> and I can't live without you!!"

 

I love my boyfriend, but we recently hit the year mark and that's always been a difficult time for me where I've had to reassess what's going on. I've never actually got past the year mark! So I'm really trying hard with this one. I think what effected me as a woman in all these year long relationships was that I spent the whole first six months just totally head over heels because I felt he had my happiness in his hands, if he had broken up with me, it would have destroyed me.

 

He's an alpha male because he's very independent and charismatic but he's not a "bad boy." However, weirdly enough the challenge died for me not when he said "I love you" but I suddenly realised that if I was the one to dump him, it would destroy him. He's always been very nice and attentive and romantic, but before it had an edge....recently I felt like he was doing it because he had nothing else to hold on to and I was the only good thing in his life (because of the market crash there's no freelance jobs out there so we've had some awful money issues.) He was putting a lot on me. "Nice guys" can sometimes do this naturally. They'll bow to your every whim just to keep you. There's nothing worse and more burdening but I think the same can sometimes apply to nice girls. During my dating days, I was always very nice and understanding and caring...and I was still told I was intense... I guess because it seemed to the guy that I was a doormat and he could get away with a lot and that wasn't fun....I'm not sure but that's my guess.

 

Thankfully, my boyfriend finally landed an amazing design job with good pay and it's put him back in a busy, optimistic frame of mind. I hope this all makes sense and sort of links up with what you were saying before. One of my exes was the nicest guy in the world, still is...but it hit me that he has no ambition.

 

I see couples that have been together since the seemingly impossible age of 19 (or younger...but 19 seems to have been the trend) and I notice that the man is now in a very good job like an architect and the mum is an excellent housewife, cook, interior decorator (in the case of my friend Harry's parents.)

 

Nice has to be paired with ambition in my mind. If a guy's an a-hole I think the drama can sometimes cover up for the fact he doesn't actually do anything/can't be bothered so the woman is too busy fawning over him trying to win his undying love to realise he's a waste of time and energy. Make sense? Open to any other thoughts/criticism ^_^

 

Thanks for such an insightful, and most importantly - honest - post. I've always suspected that this *exact* dynamics has been in place, but coming from a man it would inevitably be interpreted as a misogynism.

The morale of the story for men is not to be resentful, but acceptance.

However, I do understand where the resentment comes from (and feel it myself) --> based on what you say, it simply means that a man can NEVER, EVER lower his guard and be actually vulnerable - which is what a good relationship is supposed to allow you to do . Hence, where the so called bad boys often succeed is precisely in being somewhat aloof and not showing any vulnerability. It is pretty effective, but as a guy, I testify that it is pretty tiring, and lonely. It is hard to feel that a woman "has your back" when you know that her (caveman) mentality will see you differently if you let go for once.

 

As for the rest, I think I may have a real chance with my current GF - she's pretty traditional and "nice", while I'm a bit on the ambitious/domineering sied. The problem is that every once in a while I want to be on the vulnerable side and conversely - to see some ambition from her, but I know if i let is go, there will be trouble. (Also, nice should not be confused with doormat - while my GF does seem to have some self esteem issues, I don't think she'd allow to be mistreated).

[Woggle]

This is why I never put a woman above my friends. My friends have been there for me at my lowest point and I can be vulnerable with them. I know they have my back through thick and thin and I never feel like I have to put on a role for them to respect me. I can breathe and relax around them which is more than I can say for any woman. Men always have to play emotional games with women or we risk her falling out of love and turning on us and sometimes it is nerve wracking. Woman always say they want a man to put them first but when we do they get bored and turn on us. This is why a woman always comes 2nd to the guys I think of as brothers even though we are not blood related. Bros before hos is a good way to live because bros are much more reliable and dependable in my view.

[Thaddeus]

...it simply means that a man can NEVER, EVER lower his guard and be actually vulnerable

Well, not exactly.

 

A man CAN lower his guard and be vulnerable on rare occasions, however he also has to be aware of the fact that there is a very real possibility that his partner may perceive that vulnerability as weakness. So a man CAN do it, he just has to be prepared for the consequences.

[Woggle]

Well, not exactly.

 

A man CAN lower his guard and be vulnerable on rare occasions, however he also has to be aware of the fact that there is a very real possibility that his partner may perceive that vulnerability as weakness. So a man CAN do it, he just has to be prepared for the consequences.

 

Which means that a man can never fully feel safe in a relationship with a woman? Tell me what exactly a man gets out of this that he doesn't get out of just playing the field?

[HsMomma]

This is why I never put a woman above my friends. My friends have been there for me at my lowest point and I can be vulnerable with them. I know they have my back through thick and thin and I never feel like I have to put on a role for them to respect me. I can breathe and relax around them which is more than I can say for any woman. Men always have to play emotional games with women or we risk her falling out of love and turning on us and sometimes it is nerve wracking. Woman always say they want a man to put them first but when we do they get bored and turn on us. This is why a woman always comes 2nd to the guys I think of as brothers even though we are not blood related. Bros before hos is a good way to live because bros are much more reliable and dependable in my view.

 

Wow, Woggle, that's incredibly UGLY, even for you! "hos"? Is that what all women are to you?

 

I was reading this thread & one thought (before I read Woggle's nasty little missive above) kept going through my mind - why are "nice guy" and "manly man" seen as mutually exclusive? My h is by all accounts a truly nice guy but I assure you, there's NOTHING wimpy/needy/clingy about him. And, being as how I generally tend to speak my mind, he will put up with the occasional bitchy mood or sarcastic comment for only so long before he effectively puts an end to it. I love the fact that I can be married to a man not afraid to show his feelings, but who is also a tough guy's guy. I don't understand why so many people think that it has to be one or the other & the twain shall never meet.

 

Woggle, I would like to hear from you saying that you are not grouping every woman into the "ho" category. That's degrading, insulting and just plain horrid.:mad: