Spin-off: Father/daughter relationship of OW in long term EMA

[jennie-jennie]

Interesting theory... I certainly had - and have - a better R with my father, and with his W, than with my mother. But I can't say I ever felt I was competing (with my mother) for my father's attention - OTC, their R was so bad I was begging them to D. (Nor did I ever feel I was competing with my H's xW, during the A...) I wonder how this theory would resonate with other OWs - perhaps, Jen, you could start a thread on it in the OW forum?

 

I hear you, OWoman, I was not competing either. That part I got mixed up. I had my father's undivided attention. My mother was jealous of our relationship.

 

I read something that resonated with me long ago, that my father was "married" to me, in the sense that I was his confidant and the one he trusted. Dysfunctional family pattern, where I had the role my mother should have had, but her mood swings made it impossible for my father to rely on her.

 

I did have to share my father's attention with his work, and what do you know, MM is a workoholic as well.

 

I checked the book where I read about the OW and her family of origin, and it says nothing about competing. This is what it says:

 

"With long term affairs, an inappropriately close attachment to the opposite sex parent is more common, such as when a daughter becomes her father's primary companion and confidante."

(Patterns of Infidelity and Their Treatment by Emily Brown)

 

Fits me to a T, it does.

[Hazyhead]

Oh Lordy! Look at all those worms bursting from those cans!

 

So, so similar to my own story JJ.

[jennie-jennie]

So we go from being our father's "primary companion and confidante" although it is inappropriate to being our MM's "primary companion and confidante" although it is inappropriate.

[jennie-jennie]

Oh Lordy! Look at all those worms bursting from those cans!

 

So, so similar to my own story JJ.

 

Interesting indeed, Hazy.

[Brokenlady]

There are certain similarities between xDM and my father - emotionally bottled up but raging inside, well-educated and eloquent, auspiciously "victimized" by the primary woman in his life, etc. But there are some significant differences too - unlike my father, he won't touch a drop of alcohol.

 

I'm not sure how to characterize my relationship with my father. He was essentially absent during a large portion of my life, and when he came back our interactions were really awkward. He was't comfortable with the role of "parent", nor was I comfortable with him having that role, given his abandonment, so we interacted more like equals. His girlfriend was totally histrionic and quite possibly the most self-absorbed and annoyingly stupid person I've ever met. I think she felt the need to compete with me, but I don't feel I had any feeling of competition with her.

 

Prior to this thread, I hadn't given much thought to the idea that our relationship was basically emotionally incestuous, if anything I tended to focus on the abandonment. This is probably something I can and should explore in IC. Thanks for the insight JJ.

[Hazyhead]

Interesting indeed, Hazy.

 

I was, and am, very close in that he comes more often to me to clear his thoughts and talk than anyone else. But, I've always attributed that to the fact that we are so similar, whereas my mother is his opposite. They have a happy marriage but, in a sense, I am the one he talks to mostly about things that bother him.

 

Huh.

[Hazyhead]

More than any other partner I've had (that sounds like there's loads... not true btw), my xMM shared more similarities to my father than any other. xMM was, in a lot of ways, the male version of me :-/

 

... I need to stop thinking about this now!

[NoIDidn't]

The father/daughter dynamic spoken of by many in this thread sounds very familiar to the idea that they were "triangulated" as well.

 

I've read about this type of dynamic, and how it not uncommon the women that grew up in them to seek similar Rs, i.e. affairs (unconsciously, obviously) and have similar R with their kids and fathers of those kinds.

 

I don't want to believe, though, that some people are just destined to mainly have affairs because of their upbringing.

[Hazyhead]

The father/daughter dynamic spoken of by many in this thread sounds very familiar to the idea that they were "triangulated" as well (...) I don't want to believe' date=' though, that some people are just destined to mainly have affairs because of their upbringing.[/quote']

 

Yikes. I don't like believing that either (I hate falling into a category. I know. Ironic.), but there it is.

 

Saying that, I'm a firm believer in that we choose our paths in life. Sure, our upbringing provides us with the basis upon which we make our judgements, but we travel a long way from that basis too.

[OWoman]

In many ways (but not all), my H's M with his xW resembled my father's M with my mother. Perhaps, having seen how happy my father became once he Dd and Md his fOW gave me hope (on a subconscious level) that my H - once freed from the shackles of his M - could be happy in a new M with his fOW? It's possible, I guess.

[jennie-jennie]

In many ways (but not all), my H's M with his xW resembled my father's M with my mother. Perhaps, having seen how happy my father became once he Dd and Md his fOW gave me hope (on a subconscious level) that my H - once freed from the shackles of his M - could be happy in a new M with his fOW? It's possible, I guess.

 

Oh how I wish that had been my father's fate. He is approaching 80 now and still with my mother. After I left home as a teenager, my father had to turn to my mother. Their relationship became even more destructive than before, now that he did not have me to rely on. Everything circles around my mother now, to keep her calm. How can you spend a lifetime like that? Imprisoned by marriage.

[fooled once]

The father/daughter dynamic spoken of by many in this thread sounds very familiar to the idea that they were "triangulated" as well.

 

I've read about this type of dynamic, and how it not uncommon the women that grew up in them to seek similar Rs, i.e. affairs (unconsciously, obviously) and have similar R with their kids and fathers of those kinds.

 

I don't want to believe, though, that some people are just destined to mainly have affairs because of their upbringing.

 

I could not agree more.

 

I had an Affair. with a man old enough to be my father. But I am closer to my mother; not to say I am not close to my dad, because I am. I am daddy's girl (the only girl...) but to me, that throws a wrench into the "if you are your father's confidante than you will have an affair" theory.

 

I find it sad that so many children had to take on the roll of parent instead of being a child and being shielded from their parents troubles and issues.

 

I did my best, after my divorce, to ensure I didn't lean on my son nor make him the "man" of the family. He didn't deserve that pressure.

[jennie-jennie]

I could not agree more.

 

I had an Affair. with a man old enough to be my father. But I am closer to my mother; not to say I am not close to my dad, because I am. I am daddy's girl (the only girl...) but to me, that throws a wrench into the "if you are your father's confidante than you will have an affair" theory.

 

I find it sad that so many children had to take on the roll of parent instead of being a child and being shielded from their parents troubles and issues.

 

I did my best, after my divorce, to ensure I didn't lean on my son nor make him the "man" of the family. He didn't deserve that pressure.

 

Well, it only said that it was "more common", not that it was the case of every long term affair. Perhaps yours was more about daddy issues, just suggesting, since your MM was so much older?

[jennie-jennie]

The father/daughter dynamic spoken of by many in this thread sounds very familiar to the idea that they were "triangulated" as well.

 

I've read about this type of dynamic, and how it not uncommon the women that grew up in them to seek similar Rs, i.e. affairs (unconsciously, obviously) and have similar R with their kids and fathers of those kinds.

I don't want to believe, though, that some people are just destined to mainly have affairs because of their upbringing.

 

Since this is the only long term EMR I have had, and it started when I was 46, my relationships have certainly not been mainly affairs. Also, I did have a relationship with my MM when we were young and single, so it is not like I sought him out because he was married.

 

It is of course harder to find good single men when you are older. Perhaps your upbringing allows you to STAY in the affair, even if not to seek it. I know both Hazy and I were naive enough to believe that our MM would quickly leave their marriages since they were so deeply in love with us.

Edited February 9, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[pureinheart]

I'm going to try that again, with less detail and more summary.

 

I had a good childhood until the age of 9. Then my dad started one of many affairs. During my early teenage years there was a lot of them going back and forth. He had his flings, my mother would take him back, rinse and repeat, too many times to count. He also became an alcoholic at this time. He molested me, twice I think, when I was 14, although he did not rape me. He physically abused me and my mother from the ages of 14 to 17.

 

Then I saw my mother as a doormat and I saw my dad as the first man who broke my heart as he and I were very close when I was small. I felt very lost as a teenager and I had a lot of anger than I mostly turned in on myself.

 

I've always struggled with not wanting to be like him, yet not wanting to be like my mother either. At times it's been very difficult in that I've had a really hard time in figuring out who I am and what I need and want and there is always some part of me, that wonders if I really deserve it. When I look at the history of my relationships with other men I see mistakes and just plain wrong choices for me. Most of the time I don't feel like a victim, I feel that I am a survivor, but the cost has been high and sometimes I'm still pissed that things that were not within my control forever changed me.

 

Wow...this is powerful to me as it is so close to what I went through.

 

Molestation can be as traumatic as rape...I don't know, it was only molestation on my end also. A neighbor when I was 8 and stepdad when I was 15-19. I am pissed too.

 

I was to graduate halfway through my jr yr of HS....ya I'm pissed.

 

I always have wondered, and should explore this with my therapist...my mother was in an A with my stepdad (generational), had I snapped under the pressure of life and is this why I was vulnerable to exMM.

 

It is clear exMM/? does not know what he wants as he speaks with a forked tongue.

 

Ya, I'm pissed, although as the old saying goes,"it is better to be pissed off than pissed on"....pissed on does not apply to me anymore, and shortly pissed off won't either.

[GreenEyedLady]

My dad is the best dad in the history of the world, married to my mom for almost 37 years. I have no knowledge that he ever stepped out of their M and I can remember a couple of rough spots in their M when I was growing up, but nothing more than a couple of arguments, and rough due to unemployment and then self-employment.

 

I think my parents have a pretty successful M and are lovers and best friends to this day. They raised me the way of the golden rule and my actions are due to my own choices, not due to any way I was raised.

 

GEL

[jennie-jennie]

From the same book by Emily Brown (Patterns of Infidelity and Their Treatment):

 

"Typical childhood experiences of the unmarried third party are as follows:

Received too much inappropriate attention from opposite sex parent:

* Closer to opposite sex parent than was the same sex parent

* Overwhelmed or abused by a parent

* Role confusion and/or reversal was expected and valued

 

Not supported or protected by same sex parent:

* Same sex parent was absent due to death, divorce, or other reasons

* Same sex parent dependent or afraid of opposite sex parent

* Same sex parent does not like self or those of same gender

 

Boundaries diffuse:

* Emotional needs were ignored, neglected, or ridiculed

* Family was overtly or covertly incestuous

 

As a result the unmarried third party is emotionally needy but afraid of being dependent, seeks approval from others, ignores, denies, or dismisses her own feelings, and has difficulty trusting."

[jennie-jennie]

I guess I need to read the book as this pretty much covers it/me. Thanks Jennie for the info.

 

It is only one chapter in the entire book which covers the OW/OM. There is something about the chapter that makes me feel bad when I read it. Not this stuff which we have talked about here, but the approach to go forward. It is too much the usual "leave the MM" approach I guess. And while it does acknowledge that the OW at times ends up with the MM, in those cases no further steps seem to need to be taken as if that in itself would be a solution. And then the chapter ends with a somewhat bad prognosis:

 

"Unmarried third parties who decide to address the issues underlying their use of affairs, and who have the courage to address their pain, are usually successful in changing their lives. With commitment and persistence they gradually free themselves from the past, becoming women in the fullest sense. Those who never commit to change are likely to choose unavailable men or to pursue brief sexual encounters for the rest of their lives. They run a great risk of ending up alone."

 

I don't know what it is about that chapter. I don't think it is me. I just feel not as much work is put into dealing with the OW/OM as with the WS and the BS in the book.

 

Thanks for sharing, BB, it was so good to see that you dared to summarize what you first deleted. It helps me to see that this is a pattern shared by other OW.

 

My father's love was what made me survive childhood, still it is apparent that in some ways his bond to me hurt me as well. I was a child, but had the role of a grownup in the family. Classic triangle just like NID pointed out.

[jennie-jennie]

One more thing, the book does acknowledge that some OW are happy OW, and in these cases it seems to suggest that no individual work needs to be done in this context. Which I don't agree with, at least in my case. I am okay where I am at as the OW, but I still feel I have issues which fit the OW profile to deal with.

[OWoman]

Those who never commit to change are likely to choose unavailable men or to pursue brief sexual encounters for the rest of their lives. They run a great risk of ending up alone.

 

I would disagree with this, as the underlying assumption is that SW land up being OW from a position of brokenness, rather than it being a choice made from a position of strength in preference to other, equally available, options.

 

I certainly didn't "commit to change", but I did find that, during the course of my last A, I had moved into a different space owing to a number of other factors, where a f/t LTR was no longer so abhorrent as before - or at least, where one with the man of the moment seemed attractive. This is very different to making a decision to change, and doing the requisite work in order to be able to sustain a f/t LTR. The fact that I am (and thus clearly can) doing so, and had done so in the past prior to choosing to be an OW, would suggest that it wasn't out of brokenness and a lack of options, but a choice.

 

ETA - sorry, just saw your later post about the "happy OW". Hmmm...

Edited February 10, 2010 by OWoman
Added after seeing later post

[jennie-jennie]

I think I know what bothers me about the approach in said book. It is that the WS is considered as coming to treatment as an individual, and that he from there might choose any direction when it comes to relationships: stay in the marriage, divorce and move on to the other woman, divorce and be by himself, or perhaps even remain in both the marriage and the affair, whereas the OW seems to first need to make a decision where she is going with her relationship and from there it is decided whether or not she is a candidate for therapy.

 

The classic "a woman is defined by her relationship" approach. I too want to be defined as an individual foremost.

 

Why would the goal of the OW in pain because of an affair ultimately be to leave the affair? Becoming a happy OW (like OWoman describes above who is content with herself and where she is at) is to me just as plausible a solution.

Edited February 10, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[Got it]

While my parents marriage was quite poor he was more of the distant angry parent than anything else. It wasn't until I became an adult, and my parents divorced, did any of us become close with my father.

 

Now we are pretty close and do have a good relationship/friendship. I do not think there has ever been a blurrying of lines until adulthood (in regards to him disclosing some personal thoughts and feelings). Actually growing up it was my mother who had no filter and would say whatever to the kids about marital discord, etc.

 

My ex husband was very similar to my mother and sMM shares some definite chararcteristics of my father. Since I "like" my father's personality more that works better for me. They are both Type A's, passionate, work passionate, deal with issues from an absentee father, liberal, debaters. As this is how I am it works quite nicely for me.

 

My mother and ex husband, are more passive aggressive, "victim/martyr" roles, liberal, sensitive, matter of fact, still dealing with issues of an overbearing mother.

 

While sMM's relationship with his wife was not a good one it was no way as bad as my parents as they had a high level of anger/passion for each other. There were cycles of not speaking, short period of getting along, build up of tension/anger, and explosion. Rinse and repeat.

 

My marriage was based on having the extreme opposite of this so no passion, good friendship, very little drama. There was a wonderful, reassuring flatness that work well for us for a long time.

[White Flower]

So we go from being our father's "primary companion and confidante" although it is inappropriate to being our MM's "primary companion and confidante" although it is inappropriate.

I was closest to my father (who had an A) out of four children. I am also MM's primary confidante (but not his primary companion [yet ]). MM is closer to his daughter than his son.

 

Very interesting...

Edited February 10, 2010 by White Flower

[White Flower]

My dad is the best dad in the history of the world, married to my mom for almost 37 years. I have no knowledge that he ever stepped out of their M and I can remember a couple of rough spots in their M when I was growing up, but nothing more than a couple of arguments, and rough due to unemployment and then self-employment.

 

I think my parents have a pretty successful M and are lovers and best friends to this day. They raised me the way of the golden rule and my actions are due to my own choices, not due to any way I was raised.

 

GEL

All excellent points because we do have free will and we can be what we choose to be.

 

I chose to stay in an unhappy M far longer than I should have. That was a choice I will regret yet I thought I was doing the right thing at that time.

 

The A was also a choice, although the choice was made during a stressful and foggy time in my life. Yet, learning and growing from that as well as reading up on these threads and books help us be more aware of patterns and parallels which in turn can help us make more informed choices.

[jennie-jennie]

My ex husband was very similar to my mother and sMM shares some definite chararcteristics of my father. Since I "like" my father's personality more that works better for me. They are both Type A's, passionate, work passionate, deal with issues from an absentee father, liberal, debaters. As this is how I am it works quite nicely for me.

 

This is true for me as well. My exSO has similarities with my mother (both are abusive) whereas my MM has similarities with my father (both are/were very loving).

 

My little sister has also been the OW for a couple of years. I would say she had an inappropriately close relationship with my mother and a poor relationship with my father.