Can't stand the emotional and physical neglect anymore....

[Nutmeg617]

Hi there,

 

I'm new to the forum scene, so bear with me, I may get long-winded!

 

I am just about to turn 30, have been married for 3 1/2 years and together for 7. We have a two year old son who means the world to both of us. We've had marriage struggles since the very beginning, but up until about a year ago I was managing to cope with it and had hope that things would get better. I am now all but positive that I want out of the marriage, but it's just not as simple as up and leaving.

 

My husband is a wonderful person, and a fantastic father. The trouble is he's an awful husband. I've known since we were dating that he has built himself a huge brick wall due mainly to hurt feelings from his parents divorcing when he was 8 (mine have always been very happily married, but are each other's second marriages). I always told myself that love can do amazing things, and surely with time and perseverance I can break through that brick wall, but after this many years of one-sided conversations with no conflict resolution I don't feel I've even chipped the surface. Also since early on we've had issues in the bedroom that I've never understood. I consider myself to have a healthy libido and would be happy to have sex three or more times a week with a husband that reciprocated my feelings. He, on the other hand, can go on for months and months without even considering a need to have sex (either his own need or mine). I've coped with this as long as I have because up until the last year or so there had also been affection and compliments to make me feel loved and desired.

 

Currently the state I am in is this: I am married to a man who has no interest in sex, gives me absolutely no affection aside from a tiny little peck of a kiss if we're around friends (I'm sure just for show), and pays me no compliments whatsoever even when I give him compliments regularly. We have not had sex in 4 months, and in the last year there hasn't been one instance where we've managed to do it while sober. This is not to say either of us has a drinking problem, it's simply that it takes a little buzz for me to get past the feelings of rejection enough to feel like initiating anything. Last fall I came dangerously close to an affair and it scared the hell out of me to see how easily I could be distracted by another man. Although I'm not in contact with this person any longer, so as to avoid temptation, it really gave me a wake up call and showed me just how starved I am for these things in my marriage that are lacking. It took someone else paying me compliments, wanting to show me affection, and having desire for me to see that what my husband is doing is not normal or healthy. Now, I understand that marriages ebb and flow, and it's not always going to be burning with passion. Marriages require a lot of work from both parties to continue being successful. Ours has never been passionate, he neglects me constantly, and it's made me feel lonelier than I was even when I was single. We've tried counseling for quite a long time, and it helped temporarily with our fighting, but unless we continue that once a week for the rest of our lives things will slowly go back to crap after awhile. When I do manage to get him to have a conversation with me about it and ask him why he's so disinterested he admits that he's no longer in love with me, that other than our child he feels no connection to me, and on a scale of 1-10 he rates our relationship a 1 or 2. He also says he has simply never cared much about sex. He doesn't think about it much, and he can take it or leave it, no big deal. Well, it's a big deal to me! If it weren't for these problems I think we could make a decent go of it, because otherwise we chat (mostly about our son), watch TV together some nights, and can share a laugh. But it feels more like a roommate situation than a marriage. He has no desire to divorce, even though he admits he's not happy either. He's content to ignore all of our problems. I desperately want to separate, but I'm scared to death to make the move, and I know he never will. If it ends up being the wrong decision and in some way our son gets hurt because of my choice I would be devastated. At the same time, staying in an unhappy marriage so that he has Mom and Dad in the same room on Christmas morning seems a ridiculous notion, because surely he would know all along that things are not ok. I'm just at my wits end with it all and I hope and pray for some clarity that will help me make my decision. If any of you have any advice for me, or would just like to share your story as well, I welcome your comments. I know I could go on and on, but I fear half of the readers that started reading this have already gotten bored and chosen a different thread by now as it is! LOL....thanks for listening.

[Gunny376]

OMG! A woman that speaks her mind, says what she means and means what she says?

 

I thought surely we would have found Sasquatch before now? That enjoys sex two to three times week?

 

 

That's independent minded and thinking? Knows what she wants?

 

Knows what she's about ands what she wants, is willing to communicate to her other what she wants and needs?

 

Where the Hell were you thirty years ago? :mad: :mad:

[TaraMaiden]

.....If any of you have any advice for me, or would just like to share your story as well, I welcome your comments. I know I could go on and on, but I fear half of the readers that started reading this have already gotten bored and chosen a different thread by now as it is! LOL....thanks for listening.

Nope.

not bored.

Just amazed that you've made complete sense, and thought this through logically and practically.

 

Ok, I'm just going to put down some random thoughts here.

You've known this for a long time, and you know for a fact that nothing is going to change, because he doesn't want it to.

So your point of push will have to be this:

Are you prepared to continue in this vein for the remainder of your married life?

do you happen to know anybody else with children, who have been divorced?

Are the children shattered, destroyed and damaged beyond repair?

do you think that if you divorce, you will always be with the feelings you're feeling in this moment?

What I mean is, much as you hate the thought of divorce because it scares you 5h1tless, do you think this feeling is permanent, or do you think that once you've taken the plunge to change your life, things could very well improve, and your life might take an upswing?

Will it take an upswing if you stay precisely where you are?

Do you realise that every single thing you think, say and do is actually a choice?

Did you realise that whatever it is, you're making choices all the time?

Do you realise that if you make the choice to stay, the insanity will stay, but that if you go, you have the power to change who you are, what you do and how you live?

do you realise that nothing on this planet is permanent, and that whatever crap this throws up, it will pass?

Do you realise that providing you both love your son and bring him up wisely, two happy homes are better than one dysfunctional one?

Do you wish to teach your son to crawl and get by, or do you wish to teach your son to be adventurous and fly?

 

That might do for now, for you to ponder.

let me know what you think, and then we can go on.

[trippi1432]

Hi Nutmeg - Sorry to hear about your troubles, but you laid them out there exceptionally.

 

Couple of questions, you hit the nail on the head about your husband's issues with his own parent's divorce when he was 8, is this something he has worked on for himself in Internal Counseling or has this only been brought up in marriage counseling?

 

You also stated that he has stated that he considers your marriage on a scale of 1 or 2 out of a 10...where did he consider it at before the children, during the dating....etc. Have you ever mentioned divorce to him and what was his thinking pattern on that, I take it stay together for the kids because from 9 on...his parents weren't both in the room for Xmas morn? (Asking that because I think that may have been how my ex thought since his parent's split up at 7.)

[Nutmeg617]

Hi, all, thanks for your replies. Let's see if I can manage to touch on everything and add a little more.

Gunny, to respond to your question, 30 years ago I was just getting ready to come into this world to become the independent-thinking, confident and constant communicator (see also: pain in the arse know-it-all, lol) that I am today! And there are plenty of us out there, it's just that we're being stifled by emotionally dead husbands who have the awareness of a tree trunk. In fact, I think I'd be more satisfied talking to a tree at this point (woke up a little bitter this morning, sorry...)!

TaraMaiden, you've given me some interesting questions to think about. Yes, I know plenty of people who have children, are divorced, and they're children seem happy and well-adjusted. It's just that when I look into those big brown eyes it makes me think I can find the strength to keep his family together for one more day. Then by the time he goes to bed and I'm left with just his father, I'm right back to feeling like a lonely married woman again. This viscious cycle is making me hate what a floundering, waffling wimp I've become. In fact, I'm barely a shadow of my former self now, because I've decided so many times to simply adapt to how he is, since he is too stubborn to flex in my direction. According to him, he never does wrong anyway, so why should he compromise? No, I don't think anything will change if I stay. It will just fester like a disgusting boil on the ass of my marriage. I imagine what life could be like without him, and sometimes it gives me such a feeling of freedom and lightness that it's all I can do not to run screaming from the house just to get started on that new life. I think the reason it's so confusing for me is because of the friendship we still have. I guess I always saw divorce as a volitile, hateful situation where you are yelling and throwing things and fighting over possession of that ugly crystal bowl you got for your wedding that has never even been used. I suppose it is a blessing that we could have a civil divorce and remain cooperative throughout and after the whole process. It's just the false hope it gives me that is keeping one foot in the door. That foot is increasingly itching to move, though.

Trippi, from what I understand he went to a counselor for his parents divorce many years ago, but apparently it did not help. He says that MC helped him work through some of the issues he had with his father, but that somehow caused him to feel like he doesn't need me anymore, which he told me flat out in front of said MC. She then forced him to recommit to the marriage and since then says he's "decided" to love me, as if it's a decision one can make. "hmmm....today I think I'll love my wife and have oatmeal for breakfast". Yes, that's exactly how I pictured my marriage (notice the sarcasm there). He says that he thinks things started going downhill right around 2 years of dating, although he can't pinpoint why. This time period puts us right around the time we got engaged. Curious, isn't it? For me, I started to really feel our issues when I was pregnant with our now two year old son. There was a lot of screaming during that time. I wish he would just agree that we'd probably be better off apart, but he's so afraid of a divorce damaging our son the way it damaged him that he can't even bring himself to think about it. So, like everything else in our lives, I'm left to make the decision for both of us.......

That's all I can say for now. Too much more and I'm likely to crawl back into bed for the rest of the day, and that doesn't do anybody any good. Thanks again!

[V1k1ng0]

Hi, all, thanks for your replies. Let's see if I can manage to touch on everything and add a little more.

Gunny, to respond to your question, 30 years ago I was just getting ready to come into this world to become the independent-thinking, confident and constant communicator (see also: pain in the arse know-it-all, lol) that I am today! And there are plenty of us out there, it's just that we're being stifled by emotionally dead husbands who have the awareness of a tree trunk. In fact, I think I'd be more satisfied talking to a tree at this point (woke up a little bitter this morning, sorry...)!

TaraMaiden, you've given me some interesting questions to think about. Yes, I know plenty of people who have children, are divorced, and they're children seem happy and well-adjusted. It's just that when I look into those big brown eyes it makes me think I can find the strength to keep his family together for one more day. Then by the time he goes to bed and I'm left with just his father, I'm right back to feeling like a lonely married woman again. This viscious cycle is making me hate what a floundering, waffling wimp I've become. In fact, I'm barely a shadow of my former self now, because I've decided so many times to simply adapt to how he is, since he is too stubborn to flex in my direction. According to him, he never does wrong anyway, so why should he compromise? No, I don't think anything will change if I stay. It will just fester like a disgusting boil on the ass of my marriage. I imagine what life could be like without him, and sometimes it gives me such a feeling of freedom and lightness that it's all I can do not to run screaming from the house just to get started on that new life. I think the reason it's so confusing for me is because of the friendship we still have. I guess I always saw divorce as a volitile, hateful situation where you are yelling and throwing things and fighting over possession of that ugly crystal bowl you got for your wedding that has never even been used. I suppose it is a blessing that we could have a civil divorce and remain cooperative throughout and after the whole process. It's just the false hope it gives me that is keeping one foot in the door. That foot is increasingly itching to move, though.

Trippi, from what I understand he went to a counselor for his parents divorce many years ago, but apparently it did not help. He says that MC helped him work through some of the issues he had with his father, but that somehow caused him to feel like he doesn't need me anymore, which he told me flat out in front of said MC. She then forced him to recommit to the marriage and since then says he's "decided" to love me, as if it's a decision one can make. "hmmm....today I think I'll love my wife and have oatmeal for breakfast". Yes, that's exactly how I pictured my marriage (notice the sarcasm there). He says that he thinks things started going downhill right around 2 years of dating, although he can't pinpoint why. This time period puts us right around the time we got engaged. Curious, isn't it? For me, I started to really feel our issues when I was pregnant with our now two year old son. There was a lot of screaming during that time. I wish he would just agree that we'd probably be better off apart, but he's so afraid of a divorce damaging our son the way it damaged him that he can't even bring himself to think about it. So, like everything else in our lives, I'm left to make the decision for both of us.......

That's all I can say for now. Too much more and I'm likely to crawl back into bed for the rest of the day, and that doesn't do anybody any good. Thanks again!

 

 

I think your husband and I have a lot in common. I was much like him with regard to the whole lack of affection in the beggining of my marriage. Sadly, we are getting divorced as I type this. I can honestly say I never really knew what love was supposed to be until much later in our relationship, which is almost coming to an end. I hope things work out for you as I do not wish any of this emotional stress on anyone and it seems you are getting tons of it already.

 

I wish when I got married someone would have made me read these Bible verses on love and how a man and woman should love each other. Maybe things would be different now or maybe not.

 

Ephesians 5:28-33 (King James Version)

 

 

 

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

 

The Bible tells men they have a duty to love their wife. A wife is to respect her husband. I have always wondered why it doesnt say a wife is to love her husband as herself as well.

 

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (New King James Version)

 

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

 

 

Something interesting to do is to replace the word love in each phrase with your name. Showed me how deficient I was at "love".

 

 

 

Nutmeg: I don't know what religious background you come from but if you are Bible believing people I'd respectfully show him this. Maybe he really doesnt understand what love is. I did not.

 

I read the comment he is "deciding" to love you. I can say that what I have learned about love is that you choose whether or not to love someone. Feelings come and go but a commitment to love is so much more. If he truly is choosing to love you then there will be signs/actions. When someone does wrong to you, you choose to either give them evil or good back. It's easier said than done.

Edited May 25, 2010 by V1k1ng0

[TaraMaiden]

TaraMaiden, you've given me some interesting questions to think about. Yes, I know plenty of people who have children, are divorced, and they're children seem happy and well-adjusted. It's just that when I look into those big brown eyes it makes me think I can find the strength to keep his family together for one more day.

 

Right. Try to imagine those little eyes in a few years time asking you what kind of legacy you've left him, what kind of an example you've made for him to follow?

Do you want him to treat his wife the way your husband is treating you?

Do you want him to look at you with the same indifference and apathy as his father?

Really, truly: if you stay, in the long run - do you really think he'll thank you for your enormous sacrifice, or tell you "Jeesh mom, why the hell didncha just quit and stop flogging a dead horse?"

 

I imagine what life could be like without him, and sometimes it gives me such a feeling of freedom and lightness that it's all I can do not to run screaming from the house just to get started on that new life.

And on your deathbed you won't regret the things you did, you'll regret the things you didn't do.... If your imagination gives you such joy, don't you think it's about time you gave it breathing space?

 

I think the reason it's so confusing for me is because of the friendship we still have.

Actually - no, you don't have a friendship. You have complacency, you have indifference and you have conformity. You have habit and a certain type of comfort which actually does something for you.

It keeps you stable - but it keeps you stagnant.

Would you describe this friendship as enviable?

Don't you wish others were like you two?

 

 

 

I guess I always saw divorce as a volitile, hateful situation where you are yelling and throwing things and fighting over possession of that ugly crystal bowl you got for your wedding that has never even been used.

Ah. This is because you permit the illusion of marriages being dissolved through emotional means.

The most important factor in dissolving a marriage is to keep the emotional aspect firmly in check. Make no decisions using a basis of emotion.

The Law is required to dissolve a marriage because it's a legal contract.

Just like a business partnership.

If you bear this in mind as an absolutely fundamental anchorage point, and prevent yourself from making decisions from an emotional base - you won't go wrong. The courts are not concerned with why. All they need to establish is the how, and the priority for them is the welfare of the children.

 

I suppose it is a blessing that we could have a civil divorce and remain cooperative throughout and after the whole process. It's just the false hope it gives me that is keeping one foot in the door. That foot is increasingly itching to move, though.

Well, it's actually but a short step from the shadows to the sunshine.

What you do ultimately is up to you. But so far, you haven't come up with anything at all that would redeem this, and make it worth staying for. Have you?

[jenifer1972]

I was one of those people who propped up a 'dead horse' (marriage) for 20 years, and all the effort in the world, and numerous therapists could not revive it. Sounds like your situation, and your husband also agrees. I think at the very least you should separate on a trial basis and see how that goes. I don't think your child will melt down like your husband thinks.

 

I've lived this misery. You are like I was - married too young, not for the right reasons. You'll be happier if you start movement to separate and set each other free.

[varaski]

Gunny... this forum would not be the same without you,lol.

 

Not only is your hubby depressed, he has been depressed for some time. To the person that posted the bible scriptures, good job.

 

marrige is way more work than most people think, its the agreement that when love fades, you will stay together. Your husband is loveing you! he is loving you just as much as he is loving himself i'm sure. Looks like his best is not enough for you though.

 

Temptation knows when to show his ugly distructive face and whisper in ya ear, he also deposites a lie that stays in your head for a long time. Ya think a negative thought or two then ya get that bad vibe, that bad feeling, lose respect for your significant other. Next set of words become all about self and self needs only. And everybody gonna tell you the kids will be just fine, move on and disrupt their home its all gonna be ok.

 

I say if you want to get rid of a problem in a marriage, get all the way down to the root cause, that thing thats hiding in the dark, put a light on it and kill it, then you stand a chance of working out the by-product of offences, broken promises, and mistrusts.

 

People are such quitters these days, and its infecting others amd making them selfish quitters too.

 

FYI, I sooo did not call you a quitter.

 

Hindsite is 20-20, and its a shame that most people don't just tell the truth AFTER things have dissolved. I could go down my own list of regrets but people would tell me i'm beating myself up, and if i told the truth about the whold situation i'd be called bitter and a woman basher.

 

But I do not care what people think, I like the truth. The truth about things have always made me feel better even when things didn't go the way i desired.

 

If your hubby isn't ready to be completely honest, if you are not ready to be completly honest, yall both are selfish(seperatly) and wasting time and years.

 

To think its all about self is trash AFTER you get married. I understand people get tired, but quitting ain't an option either.

 

True a person can't go at it all along, but the truth is you and him and meshed together at the soul and i do know and believe that you could help pull him out of his fog, that is IF you love him. I can't think of the moment i'd just leave the one that i love when they are sick. My life may suck for a while, i man not have all that I want, but my need would be to get my other half back on their feet so WE could be whole again.

 

Marriage is work, always has been and always will be, those that endure and work get the prize at the end of that race.

 

Or just go and change horses in the middle of the race like everyone else.

 

It he not beating your teeth out, standing on your self-esteem, rapin and sleeping with the whole world, it can be fixed. Yet the work has to come from a healthy person, with a healthy mind and soul. You are offended and tempted at this point.

 

i'm a guy and i have been depressed in life and in marriage also, if you wanted to take control of your marriage and your sex life at home, I know you could. Well that is only if you wanted to.

 

i would have loved if my wife marriage raped me, that woulda been real nice. Built up my self esteem and all of that good stuff !

 

flame on for me right???

[Nutmeg617]

I haven't updated for quite awhile because a lot has gone on recently. I figured it was time to let it out, so thank you to whoever is reading.

 

I appreciate the feedback that has been given. Please forgive me for not backtracking and responding to it, and know that all your words have been on my mind. At this point I feel it is better to simply give an update and go from there.

 

Not long after my last post I sat my husband down for a talk. I explained to him once again that I am unhappy and that I feel like I've been the only one putting in the effort to make things better. This conversation ended with us all but deciding we were going to separate. Right down to him asking me to wash all of his clothes so he could pack to go stay with his mom. *side note: I would honestly prefer that I be the one to leave since I'm the one that rolled the separation ball in the first place, but I have nowhere else to go. Financially we cannot afford for me to get an apartment and my parents have no vacant bedrooms (plus other family drama to worry about)*. Exhausted from talking, we decided to sleep on it and he said we must talk more about it the next day. That I appreciated, because it showed me he was taking the initiative to keep the communication going, rather than continuing to ignore the problems

 

The next night when we talked again he asked me if I still wanted to go ahead with the new arrangement. I said that what I wanted was for him to wake up, show some interest in his life and his family, take charge of things, help me run the household, and just be the man of the house in general. We also discussed the fact that I'm still feeling lonely and neglected, and that I want affection and attention from him. He agreed that he would make an effort in these areas and that he does want me to be happy, which I believe he truly does. Over the next several days I begin to see wonderful improvements and effort coming from him. He is asking to help with figuring out our financial problems, he's fixing little things around the house that were being ignored, he's making some of the decisions instead of letting them all rest on my shoulders....so for awhile there I'm feeling such relief! Such hope and promise! But wait....why am I still not satisfied? He's doing most of what I have asked of him, so what is my problem? Why can't I take the good with the bad and live without the affection, compliments, and sexual intimacy that he still can't bring himself to give me? Is it that nothing will ever please me, or am I right to feel I deserve these things?

 

Tonight we had yet another talk. It started out as one of those nit-picky fights, boiled to a stubborn word spitting match, and simmered to a very open conversation that has left me miserable. I could spell out the whole thing for you, but it comes down to this: no matter how unhappy my husband is he will never end this marriage. He made a promise and he intends to keep it no matter how difficult the personal sacrifice. He says he wants our son to know that you don't break promises and that when things get rough you don't run to something that makes you happier, you stick it out no matter what. While I realize that this is rather noble of him, and I respect his morals and the lesson he's trying to teach our son, as I'm hearing him say all of this to me I'm seeing a vision in my mind of a jail cell; me on the inside with the door creaking shut and metal clanging as the key turns to lock me in. I have never felt so trapped in my life. I tell him that maybe it is selfish for me to want happiness for myself and for him, even if it means breaking up the family, but the lesson that I want our son to learn is that relationships and marriage should be about two people that love each other. That have a genuine bond and mutual adoration. Two people that lift each other up when the rest of the world tries to push them down. How can I show him this when I'm stuck feeling unhappy forever? The conversation ended with me furious at him. Furious because I've spent the last two years working at this all by myself, trying to get him to work on our problems before it was too late, and now he decides to be the nobleman after I've built up irreversible anger and resentment towards him. He's worked on our marriage for two weeks and thinks he should be given a medal for his valiant effort. I'm just so incredibly lost now. How much should a person sacrifice? How much CAN a person sacrifice before they're no longer themselves? Is it worse to be selfish and leave to find something better or to lose yourself in the process of trying to be a family? My husband says we should have never gotten married, and I agree. Hindsight is 20/20. Why does foresight have to be so damn blurry?

[automaton]

I haven't updated for quite awhile because a lot has gone on recently. I figured it was time to let it out, so thank you to whoever is reading.

I feel your pain. I've been without affection and have felt undesired for almost 5 years. It's a roommate situation, and my frustration is always at 10 out of 10. She makes no consistent attempt to show she loves me. ANy time I try to talk about it, she gets defensive and blames my frustration level for her inability to properly love me. Then she picks fights (supposedly unintentionally) until I break down and tell her it's over. She then fights about *that* and tells me It's my fault she doesn't give affection because I'm a horrible person for having a limit to my patience. SHe keeps me at my wits end, never allowing me any happy moments with her. Then calls me un-pleasable because my fuse is so short. I tell her it's short because I have no good times to balance the bad, but she says it's just because I'm just a mean person, and that's why she doesnt show me love. She is very emotionallly manipulative that way. I tell her quit blaming and just live the life we want, but she can't stop shaming me into taking responsibility for her not loving me properly. I'm sleeping at my mom's tonight because my she was packing her things at my place, and telling me how horrible a person I am in every way she can think of. I have been a prisoner and told I'm a bad person, and it's unbearable. I just want to be happy.

[You Go Girl]

Nutmeg--you're wonderfully articulate and funny sometimes! You made me laugh several times. You have a great sense of humor, even in this stiffling environment you live in. I wonder what that humor would be like blossoming without the unhappiness.

I see that you are really thinking here, not simply reacting with negative emotions.

I have a sneaky suspicion. For any hope for your marriage, I hope I'm wrong. But listen to my suspicion--your husband doesn't believe in divorce, so he says. I don't believe him. I think perhaps--he just doesn't want the guilt of ending it on his shoulders. He wants you to be the one to call it quits.

Any man that says he doesn't love you, and that your marriage is a 1 or a 2, that he's unhappy but will be a martyr, geesh. Need I show more examples?

Then he deflects his guilt by fixing things around the house for two weeks? He isn't smart enough to know that he could have done these type of things all along? I think he is smart enough to know. And his efforts the last two weeks are purely mechanical, without love and affection. Those efforts appear chosen carefully, imho. Chosen to prove that he is a good house-husband, good father. But he's carefully avoided the love and emotional side of the relationship. Going through good husband motions, it seems to me.

What is this man like with the rest of family and friends? Does he have no emotional needs?

Is he really thick as a brick--or is it sabotage?

Take a good look at him and let us know.

It could be that he's repressed all need for love and affection from others because of his relationship with his parents, divorce or not--I think the divorce isn't the most important element of his relationship with his parents, but that whether they showed him love and affection. Did they?

Does he realize that you've been sitting there patiently waiting for affection? Does he on some level revel in withholding that? Does he know you're squirming in the chair awaiting some recognition?

I'm just digging here--things I've said may be right on the mark or completely off.

But I think people in general use psychology on others to a greater degree than they know. I also think that often enough, people don't understand the subconcious manuevers they make, and that they are manipulative without even understanding it.

Yet, when asked a simple question--do you love me, and the answer is no...love can't be an obligation.

If he was severely neglected emotionally as a child by his parents, then he thinks the way to show love is to deny it, repeating what he feels--and punishing those he loves, because he felt punished.

[Nutmeg617]

YGG - thank you for being so understanding. Thank for articulating what I could not quite put my finger on. You're more right than I think either of us wish you were. My husband is an extremely intelligent man. And he knows the best ways to use this to his advantage. He does it every time we fight, expertly twisting my words so that somehow he becomes the victim and I am the bully. It seems this is going to be the culmination of all of that, as if all of these years of fighting that way has been his training for this masterpiece. I can certainly see him sabotaging our relationship, and in fact I accused him of that very thing not 6 months ago. I told him that it was like he was in a job that he hated, and he was purposely (and perhaps subconsciously) doing/not doing things so that he would get fired and not have to quit. Because if you get fired then it's not your fault, right? People give you the "I'm sorry, poor you" looks and you skip away without having any responsibility. This has been such a pattern in our relationship I could make a friggin quilt. He also has admitted in MC that he punished his parents for years because they divorced. He took it personally and I guess felt he had to show it by acting out. As far as his emotional relationship with his parents, I don't know a lot of specifics, but I can speculate knowing that his father has caused him a lot of pain. His mother is wonderful, and I'm sure showed him a lot of love and affection (she's a hugger), but his father is a cold, emotionally distant, self-serving, inconsiderate A-hole. If you met the two of them separately you could never imagine them having ever loved one another, they are so incredibly different. From what I understand, their divorce was pretty nasty. To the point that at one time my husband's father took him and his sister, basically kidnapped them, enrolled them in a different school, and wouldn't tell their mother where they were for weeks. I know there was a LOT of fighting, and probably not very well hidden. I'm pretty sure my husband learned all of his fancy maneuvers from his father. He learned from the master and was an excellent student.

 

I think you're also correct about him not really being a disbeliever in divorce. About a year ago (discovered this last fall) he was talking online to a girl from high school. One of those "wish we would have dated, I always liked you" kind of people. I stumbled across their messages and in one of them he told her that he didn't think our marriage was going to last. So clearly he saw some end to it at that point. He's known all of my complaints, and exactly what I needed from him all along, because I basically beat him over the head with it to try to get him to understand, but to no avail. He knew what would make it better, but I do feel like he chose not to do anything about it. He might do a few things here and there to create the illusion that a full-on change is coming, but it never does.

 

So what do I do now? Do I just bite the bullet and give him what he wants, since I'm pretty much done anyway? Or do I dig in my heels and join him on the ride-o-pain (possibly dragging our son along with us)? I know you're thinking that I already know the answer, and I'm sure you're right, I just don't know how to take the first step. I have nowhere to go and he knows it. He makes all of the money, but I've always been in control of it. Plus, the thought of not seeing my son every day just turns me into a sobbing mess. Thank goodness it's raining today, for I feel if it were sunny it would be a little insulting to my mood.

[trippi1432]

Hi Nutmeg - I guess really it comes down to choice....yours.

 

Like TaraMaiden says, everyday and everything we do is a choice. I can tell you from experience, after my first husband left (sex was 3 seconds and once a month if I was lucky), I made fatal 2nd husband mistake number 2.

 

That's not to say that you will do the same, but what you see up front is not exactly what you will get once the relationship has taken hold. I can tell you that my daughter packed her bags the night before her graduation and was gone by 2pm the next day as soon as we got home from her ceremony. As she stated, not to get away from me, but to get away from my 2nd husband who was in her life since 7 years old.

 

Like I said....choice....but you need to know both sides of that before you make it....especially where a child is involved. Not trying to put you down or make you mad because, believe me with husband 1, I can totally understand your frustration. But going through my experience with husband 2 with a child that wasn't his, 50/50 chance.

[Nutmeg617]

Hi, trippi. Choice is such a vital part of my problem. It's the fact that I can't see the other side that has me struggling so much. All I can think is that there has to be a better situation out there than this, and if I get out then in the future my heart will be well protected and a difficult prize to win.

[scatterd]

oh my gosh you have explained my marriage also.It seems like it is catching.I went with the flow for many years.Then on the sixteenth year he decided something was wrong.I had told him this was not normal and I felt alone.I loved sex but he was not interested as much as I was.The funny thing is it got twisted.He asked for a divorce and was hanging around young girl and he turned into a complete jerk and blamed me for everything he did.He said he was getting even with me when he was the one turning me down and not talking anything out.I was stunned and so confused on how this was my fault.I think you should not do this for as long as I did later down the road this could happen.Im not totally in detail because it is such a long story I apologize for that But I wanted to warn you how bad it gets later. His dad left when he was a baby and came back and married his mom when he was 23.I seem to think that maybe that has something to do with his actions and not taking responsibility for his part.I dont know what he expected from me or why he got so angry maybe he wanted me to make all the effort.I hope maybe we can learn something out of this.We are OK now but what a hell of a journey its been.Good luck I hope you find the answers and all will be OK.

.

[Turpentine]

Magpie: What lies ahead of us is always an unknown. I understand your fear. But fear is crippling. Having been in the same shoes as you: not having a place to live, not having a substantial income, and feeling like you are at the bottom of a well with no way out...I know this fear. I can still taste it in my mouth 12 years later. And it is this fear that overrides everything, because you have a little one that you must be a mother to. It is debilitating.

 

I promise you this...it will come to you. One day, you will wake up and you will have either conquered the fear or been able to push it down, put it in a bag and carry it as a reminder of how strong you are. You will be able to harness it and use it as a tool to remind you of the mother/lover/friend/person you want to be.

 

I struggle with the notion of "one must love thyself before one can love another". Do I put my needs for self reclamation before everything else? Isn't that an act of selfishness? These questions leading to the obvious ones. What is best for my child? How can I show him happiness if I am not experiencing it? It is constant internal battle that a person in this situation HOPEFULLY goes through.

 

What I can make sense of after many years is this: communication. By being honest and loving and constantly available, and at times prying, you will not do wrong by your child. It matters not what decision you make about your marriage if you are able to educate your child on what possibilities are out there in the world. I hope this makes sense. You can give your child everything he needs no matter what familial situation he has. He will always have a mother and a father regardless if they live together or not. They will always love him. In the end, isn't this what is most important?

 

I wish I had a magic wand to help alleviate your fears, concerns, and unknowns. But, I know you are going to have an answer soon. You need to listen to yourself and not to your fears. The unknowns will stifle you if you let them. You are a strong and courageous woman who, if she listens to herself, will know the answer. You must not let anyone sway you or deter you from what you know deep within yourself. Trust yourself!

 

Hope this sheds light. If not....well, you know where to find me.

[Nutmeg617]

I'm exhausted. Love you, turpy :,(.

 

Fear has such an awesome hold on me. I have always struggled with the unknown, and held onto things for far longer than I should have. I suspect that's what is happening here. I just don't want to be wrong. Not about this, it's too big. I want so badly to talk to my mother, she always gives me such great perspective. I'm afraid to, though, because both of my brothers' relationships are such a mess also. I don't know if she can handle the demise of all three of her children's relationships at the same time. I know she wouldn't want me to hurt like this, but I don't want to add to her pain. My brother may be moving out of their basement soon, and starting to move on with his own life, so there may be a vacancy there soon. I know they would let me come home again and start rebuilding, I just hate to think what it will do to their spirit.

 

Ugh. Thank goodness it's getting to be naptime over here.

[You Go Girl]

Nutmeg--

from one scared woman to another--who also perceives manipulation--real or imagined (does it matter anymore? because it just doesn't WORK!) I think you are going to be just fine....

Yep. Just fine.

Everytime you get scared, put on some music that you love and uplifts you.

Take a look at my story and you'll see--My H may think he's been a 'good man' but he's broken me, and destroyed my faith, both of which I think he had no intention of doing.

Sad, but true.

Somewhere along the line, we just say--I forgive what I *perceive* you to be. I forgive what you perceive me to be.

Now take a very hard look at the whole situation, and ask yourself where you failed him--the hard questions, the hard things to admit to yourself.

Once you're ok with your own behavior, you will be able to accept his, and do what is needed--no matter what the outcome. The point is to stop the endless what if's, the endless circle of torment.

"It's all good".

I *perceive* your H, from what you have written, to be a man that feels he must punish all those that he loves. If I am right, he will have a long period of growth (or not) to stop this cancer he learned from his childhood.

I wonder if this will carry over into his relationship with your son--I think so. You should watch that, and be careful of it, helping to keep your son's self-esteem intact.

Now what I *perceive* from what you wrote, and what the Truth is, Truth with that big T, may differ, and that's for you to know, to understand, to admit to yourself, and to figure out. I am just a blind person trying to see into your story.

[ishmaiel]

I desperately want to separate, but I'm scared to death to make the move, and I know he never will. If it ends up being the wrong decision and in some way our son gets hurt because of my choice I would be devastated.

 

Your son will probably suffer more (in the long term) by observing your existing marriage for the next 10 years, than from the sudden trauma of separation.

 

There is no way to avoid pain for him. He's probably quite observant and will take cues from your relationship to formulate a blueprint for his. Strictly from the perspective of his well-being, it is much better to explain that mommy and daddy aren't getting along anymore, and that they deserve better, and are separating, than to stick it out and continue to set a bad example.

 

With respect to how you feel, I suggest that you make your last stand, so to speak, and communicate clearly and unambiguously that *unless* things change you are no longer willing to stay. That there is nothing here for you now, and unless things appear, you are going. Don't say "maybe" and "likely", but "certainly" going.

 

Sometimes people let their relationship fade away because they don't think they need to invest in it to keep it growing (or keep it around). Let him know that you need this kind of active investment.

[Nutmeg617]

It never ceases to amaze me how even when people are enduring their own pain and feel their world crashing down on them, they can still find some strength within themselves that they can give to others. This site is such an example of that, and I appreciate the strength and wisdom you all have given to me in the midst of your own struggle.

 

I've decided to try working on myself for a change, rather than working on my H. I'm finally realizing that I can't do it for him. Nor do I want to, he needs to figure it out on his own. I'm pursuing individual counseling to try to get to the bottom of my own feelings and figure out what I really want. I don't intend to allow it to cause me to lose myself, settle for the hand I've been dealt, or simply learn to cope with these circumstances. I do intend to learn more about who I am, what I want from my life and for my son, and why the things in my marriage leave me feeling like something is missing. I feel this is a necessary step for me in dealing with our good old friend Fear, as I think my biggest fear in letting go of this marriage is that once it's over and I've grieved for it I will find someone new only to have the same thing happen. Thus meaning that perhaps the problem wasn't my current H, or that fictional future H, but instead it was me all along. And if I could've just sorted ME out, I might've salvaged my first marriage and my son's family. Preventing such a tragedy has suddenly become vital to my peace of mind in this situation. I do feel, though, that this is my last try. If I work through my own issues and still am left yearning for a different path, then I will walk it and finally be at peace with my decision.

[Turpentine]

Megnut,

 

just make sure you feel GOOD about yourself when you find a counselor. I unfortunately have had a few in my short time on this earth, and I have found that some are a bit too badgering. Make sure...very very sure...that you have someone who helps you work on issues within yourself, but doesn't leave you feeling at a loss. It has happened, where I had gone to counseling, and left the room only to think, "Am I really that HORRIBLE of a person?" I hope you find a good fit. otherwise i am afraid that it may be a waste of time. You may remember me commenting once about the councelor saying to me that I am too hard on people? HMMMFTTT! It has plagued me since.

 

and with all of that being said, I am so happy that you are ready to get out there and find out more things about yourself. love ya doll!

[You Go Girl]

It never ceases to amaze me how even when people are enduring their own pain and feel their world crashing down on them, they can still find some strength within themselves that they can give to others. This site is such an example of that, and I appreciate the strength and wisdom you all have given to me in the midst of your own struggle.

 

I've decided to try working on myself for a change, rather than working on my H. I'm finally realizing that I can't do it for him. Nor do I want to, he needs to figure it out on his own. I'm pursuing individual counseling to try to get to the bottom of my own feelings and figure out what I really want. I don't intend to allow it to cause me to lose myself, settle for the hand I've been dealt, or simply learn to cope with these circumstances. I do intend to learn more about who I am, what I want from my life and for my son, and why the things in my marriage leave me feeling like something is missing. I feel this is a necessary step for me in dealing with our good old friend Fear, as I think my biggest fear in letting go of this marriage is that once it's over and I've grieved for it I will find someone new only to have the same thing happen. Thus meaning that perhaps the problem wasn't my current H, or that fictional future H, but instead it was me all along. And if I could've just sorted ME out, I might've salvaged my first marriage and my son's family. Preventing such a tragedy has suddenly become vital to my peace of mind in this situation. I do feel, though, that this is my last try. If I work through my own issues and still am left yearning for a different path, then I will walk it and finally be at peace with my decision.

This is really enlightened. That you have chosen to study this deeper, find the root causes, is admirable.

I have one comment about advice for counselors. Make sure you don't get a lazy non-thinking one. I've tried 4 or 5 before I finally gave up. Maybe I was too impatient, or maybe it was upsetting to go into session, and realize that the psych thought I was somebody else, had their file out, and wasn't thinking about me enough inbetween sessions to even remember who I was. I think psych's have a workload that creates such a problem. Many appear to spend zero time studying your case inbetween sessions. These types will waste your time and money.

[mem11363]

Nutmeg,

Let me try to help you a bit. There are two pieces to this puzzle. The first is that he is not sexually attracted to adult females. That is not about you, it is about him. But it is also not fixable. It will NEVER change. All his other behavior - lack of communication - emotional distance - etc - was intended by him as a smokescreen for that lack of desire. He gets angry and aggressive when you address it because it is the one secret he has NO INTENTION of discussing with you.

 

The second is about independence. If you can find the strength to develop some skills so you can financially support yourself - you can leave. If not, you have to find another man to love/support you. The job skills thing is a way way better path as it will do things for your self esteem that another marriage cannot do. I am sure you will eventually find someone else - but in the short term you need a job or you truly are stuck.

 

You sound delightful. It is very sad that he deliberately deceived you. He has known all along what his sexual desires were.

 

If you stay with him - in a loveless - sexless marriage. It will gradually destroy you from within like a slow, tasteless, odorless poison.

 

It never ceases to amaze me how even when people are enduring their own pain and feel their world crashing down on them, they can still find some strength within themselves that they can give to others. This site is such an example of that, and I appreciate the strength and wisdom you all have given to me in the midst of your own struggle.

 

I've decided to try working on myself for a change, rather than working on my H. I'm finally realizing that I can't do it for him. Nor do I want to, he needs to figure it out on his own. I'm pursuing individual counseling to try to get to the bottom of my own feelings and figure out what I really want. I don't intend to allow it to cause me to lose myself, settle for the hand I've been dealt, or simply learn to cope with these circumstances. I do intend to learn more about who I am, what I want from my life and for my son, and why the things in my marriage leave me feeling like something is missing. I feel this is a necessary step for me in dealing with our good old friend Fear, as I think my biggest fear in letting go of this marriage is that once it's over and I've grieved for it I will find someone new only to have the same thing happen. Thus meaning that perhaps the problem wasn't my current H, or that fictional future H, but instead it was me all along. And if I could've just sorted ME out, I might've salvaged my first marriage and my son's family. Preventing such a tragedy has suddenly become vital to my peace of mind in this situation. I do feel, though, that this is my last try. If I work through my own issues and still am left yearning for a different path, then I will walk it and finally be at peace with my decision.

[Nutmeg617]

I will definitely be careful about choosing an IC. I don't need anyone wasting my time, and especially not my money! LOL. Hopefully it won't come down to me having to bounce all over the metro area before I find the right person, but if that's what it takes then so be it.

 

Today was another of those less hopeful days, as my husband was being a complete a$$ again. I hate this roller coaster. Hell, I'm ready to shut down the whole amusement park. It's not so amusing after all....

 

Mem, if you could please clarify what you were implying in your response I would appreciate it. I don't want to interpret it wrong, and I didn't understand what you were trying to get at with concern to his sexual issues.

 

Goodnight everyone, gotta recharge for another day! I wonder what tomorrow will be - top of the hill, bottom of the hill, or hands up screaming in between?