Empathy Issue?

[Spark1111]

Does the ability to engage in an affair have a direct correlation to the lack of empathy one feel's towards the spouse you will help to betray?

 

It seems a necessary part of the script is to minimize the spouse and the marital relationship to the person one hopes to engage in an affair.

 

Now, I personally, if someone were to start complaining of their primary marital relationship to me, would be appalled.

 

It's crass, and ill-mannered, IMHO.

 

I would think, yuck. Shouldn't they be trying to work it out with their significant other?

 

And then I would think, why are you telling me THIS?

 

And then I would feel empathy, or sympathy at the very least, for the imagined spouse who is now being maligned in my presence. I would think, "Poor soul, I wonder if they know how they are being disparaged in the presence of me, and who knows who else?"

 

And I would think less, way less of the person complaining to me.

 

But, on these boards, I see that isn't the position, or the attraction is more important than the position.

 

Were my parents more successful in instilling the values of empathy in me?

 

Any thoughts?

[Owl]

I think that the hallmark traits of someone who participates in an affair (on either side...MM/MW or OM/OW) is a great deal of self-focus.

 

Those that conduct an affair and have no remorse/regret/care about the others affected by the affair simply don't consider those others in the triangle.

 

Their focus is on themselves. Their enjoyment. Their benefits.

 

They avoid considering what the costs are for others.

 

You could consider it a lack of empathy. Or you could consider it a 'coping mechanism' that most WS's and OP's engage in...narrowing their field of vision down to what they see as good, and avoiding spending any considerations on the potential negative aspects to others.

 

Just like the re-writing of marital history, etc... it's all part of what the mind does to avoid that internal conflict of doing bad vs feeling good.

[carhill]

Having faced differing dynamics, I find the basic emotional level is largely similar. The spouse is irrelevant to the *feelings*. However, on a higher, more intellectual level, where *behavior* is enacted, the relationship with/knowledge of the spouse and relevant understanding for that spouse, 'being in their shoes', comes into greater play. The driving force, IME, is balance of knowledge. A spouse who is a stranger one has no personal knowledge of other than what is told to one; where one 'knows' the spouse, either personally or professionally, there is independent perspective of who that person is to balance with what is recited by the WS. There is 'depth' of understanding in the latter case which, IME, affects behavior.

 

IME, from a man's perspective, one with whom many women have shared and continue to share their 'issues', I see this as their way of garnering validation and support and 'turning the tide' into their favor. It's social 'influence' at best and manipulation at worst. It goes on all the time. It's only rarely I hear such sharing from male friends. Men appear to handle such issues very differently.

 

Personally, I generally will, if faced with a person I don't know nor care about and one whom I do know and care about, empathize more completely and sincerely with the one whom I do have a relationship. To me, that's human nature. I'm not Mother Theresa, not by a long stretch, rather just a guy trying to get through life the best he can.

 

Recently, I was faced with this issue, on more than one occasion. I know both spouses well and, predictably, is was the woman who approached me for such 'sharing'. I listened, interjected with positives I was aware of about their marriage and her spouse, and suggested counseling. I also advised her that I was still going through a divorce so was vulnerable myself and that I might not be a healthy person to share these particular matters with, although I did and do empathize. I hope things work out for them. This is the most recent of a number of such situations, some recited here on LS, which have occured over my lifetime.

 

On balance, empathy and caring appear to be a double-edged sword of sorts. Overall, I think it is healthy to possess them as qualities of one's personality, but one must be careful how they are wielded and with whom. Boundaries

[seren]

It's the empathy, or lack of, for another human being that just baffles me. As we hear, lots, it was the MP responsibility to not hurt their BS, the OW/OM has no responsibility. I cannot get my head around this, as when D Day happened, I had nothing but empathy for the OW, told H not to badmouth her, thought it disrespectful and unnecessary. I am from good old Quaker, Unitarian stock, although I am not religious, I was brought up to not do harm to another, it is my code, my absolute.

 

I simply cannot imagine making my mind up to, planning to, corroborating with another to, hurt someone else, irrespective of my own needs, wants, desires. It just doesn't compute with me.

In my single years, I had many married men hit on me, some I really, really could have had a long relationship with some, some would have been fun, - BUT, just couldn't do it to another woman, one left his wife because he thought I would then go out with him if he was single. I explained that of course I seemed exciting, fun, had time to listen to him, had no stretch marks, wasn't tired, never saw his faults, I just had me to look after, not his kids, life, etc etc and sent him home to try and work it out. he was the one other person other than H who I think could have been a soul mate. BUT, just couldn't do it and took the blame for luring her H away when she found out he was asking me out, rather than hurt her. I don't know if it means that people who don't have empathy and enter A's have lower morals, that's their choice, their conscience, but I just know my moral compass directs me on a different course.

[NoIDidn't]

I agree with you and Owl, Spark - especially as it relates to Infidelity.

 

I have a girlfriend that regularly complains to me about her H and the state of their marriage. Which is dangerous for her because I am not the only one she does it with and its led to numerous women using her to get to her H knowing what she complains about. These women befriend her to hear her complaints and then use it against her. They say its because she obviously doesn't want or love him. But I disagree. She loves and desires him very much, she just wants and needs more from him than he gives sometimes.

 

I guess I also agree with Carhill, that too much empathy is a double-edged sword. For some, its very hard to find a balance there.

[Fight4Me]

Spark and Seren, I think one the reasons I love your posts is because I identify so much with how you express both compassion and empathy for others, even those who are OPs or WSs. I've always tried to put myself in other people's shoes, whether it's the rude store clerk or the OW in my fWH's A. I'm not perfect by any means, but I grew up with a strong sense of empathy and have always tried to treat others in the same way I would like to be treated. Even if someone is rude and obnoxious, it isn't appropriate to return the behavior. There are other ways to deal with difficult people. I can attribute much of this to my upbringing and my Christian faith, but I also believe it can be a biological trait since my own brothers and sisters don't necessarily hold as strongly to this kind of thinking as I do.

 

I admit to being taken aback by some people's lack of ability to accept any kind of responsibility for their own behavior, and the lengths they go to justify their actions. I don't know if it's a matter of lack of empathy to begin with or perhaps one's ability to suppress it. I could see the latter happening in situations where one finds themselves in a friendship that gradually crosses lines (boundary issues) and then they wake up one morning to realize they're in a full-blown affair. I can actually empathize with those who, while still in error, have a more difficult time extricating themselves from the situation.

 

Overall, I think there are probably a number of factors that come into play, both biological and environmental. And as someone else mentioned, having more empathy can make you more vulnerable to becoming a listening ear when it isn't appropriate. I found myself in a situation about ten years ago where I thought I was being helpful to a guy who began to confide in me about marital issues. I didn't see the danger until he said something like, "I wish my wife was more like you..." Mayday! Mayday! I remember feeling flattered, but thankfully was able to see that I was in dangerous territory and finally directed him to some male friends who were equipped to help. From then on, I set a personal boundary never to discuss marital issues privately with the opposite sex. I've also made it a point never to complain about my husband to others, unless it is with a trusted counselor/advisor who is a friend to the marriage, and he is aware of it. I have his permission (and visa versa) to speak about past problems and how we have resolved them with the hope that someone else could learn from our mistakes. And now I'm getting way off onto a tangent...

 

Geez, I made myself sound like Mother Teresa, but goodness no, I'm far from it. I screw up all the time, but it is my hope not to repeat the same mistakes, especially if it ends up harming someone else, even indirectly.

[ADF]

I don't think there can any serious question that a person who knowingly engages in an affair has an empathy problem. What has your MM or MW's spouse ever done to you? In most cases, nothing. But that doesn't stop many people from engaging in behavior that is deeply hurtful to them.

 

We live in a culture that values freedom and individual choice almost to the exclusion of all other values. No wonder a lot people lack empathy.

[Samantha0905]

I think there may be a lack of empathy all the way around in affair situations -- and I'm not just talking about the lack of empathy a WS feels toward their BS. Just reading this board makes me realize how much many people in general lack in empathy at times. Other times they seem filled with it. I'm sure its somewhat situational and based on what the particular person has experienced in their own life.

 

As I've said many times, a marriage involves two people. When someone has an affair they make a selfish decision, but it does not indicate they have antisocial personality disorder or that they are totally lacking in empathy for their spouse, the antichrist, etc.

[ladydesigner]

I think there may be a lack of empathy all the way around in affair situations -- and I'm not just talking about the lack of empathy a WS feels toward their BS. Just reading this board makes me realize how much many people in general lack in empathy at times. Other times they seem filled with it. I'm sure its somewhat situational and based on what the particular person has experienced in their own life.

 

As I've said many times, a marriage involves two people. When someone has an affair they make a selfish decision, but it does not indicate they have antisocial personality disorder or that they are totally lacking in empathy for their spouse, the antichrist, etc.

 

I totally agree with this. I am so sick of things so black and white. Although I can admit that I did lack empathy when I engaged in a revenge A, but my H brought that one on himself. It does take two.

[StoptheDrama]

I think that the hallmark traits of someone who participates in an affair (on either side...MM/MW or OM/OW) is a great deal of self-focus.

 

Those that conduct an affair and have no remorse/regret/care about the others affected by the affair simply don't consider those others in the triangle.

 

Their focus is on themselves. Their enjoyment. Their benefits.

 

They avoid considering what the costs are for others.

 

You could consider it a lack of empathy. Or you could consider it a 'coping mechanism' that most WS's and OP's engage in...narrowing their field of vision down to what they see as good, and avoiding spending any considerations on the potential negative aspects to others.

 

Just like the re-writing of marital history, etc... it's all part of what the mind does to avoid that internal conflict of doing bad vs feeling good.

 

You have a valid point, O Wise One, as you often do but wouldn't that be limited to the one-time cheater? Could it also apply to repeat offenders? Take my xMM for example. I know from what he told me that I was not the first (according to him, he had 2 ONS in the past ) and I am fairly certain that I was not the last. Given his past and continuing behavior (still unsuccessfully fishing with me), could his actions be indicative of anything other than a lack of empathy for his W, M, & children, much less the OW?

[NoIDidn't]

I think there may be a lack of empathy all the way around in affair situations -- and I'm not just talking about the lack of empathy a WS feels toward their BS. Just reading this board makes me realize how much many people in general lack in empathy at times. Other times they seem filled with it. I'm sure its somewhat situational and based on what the particular person has experienced in their own life.

 

As I've said many times, a marriage involves two people. When someone has an affair they make a selfish decision, but it does not indicate they have antisocial personality disorder or that they are totally lacking in empathy for their spouse, the antichrist, etc.

 

What a roundabout way of saying that the BS lacks empathy in affair situations too!

 

Considering that Spark started this thread asking if the lack of empathy is why the WS bad-mouths the BS, I don't think she was trying to get into antisocial personality disorder or other disorders territory (my assumption, not hers). What I took from the OP is that in the moment of choosing the affair, is the WS showing a lack of empathy for the spouse and family unit? My vote is yes. They are also showing a lack of forethought and poor decision-making skills, if they then profess to not know how things would turn out - or that they might fall in love, or that it would impact their marriage, or any of the other things that are often said by Waywards in forums.

 

My H told me that he wasn't thinking about me when he embarked on his EA. I was not on his mind at all. His thoughts and feelings, feelings that he had for the OW and feelings she awakened in him, were what was on his mind. Is this a lack of empathy for the betrayed? In some ways, no. In those moments, I didn't exist. But the simple fact that he gave himself, a married man that should have known better, permission to even put himself in that position says YES that is a clear lack of empathy. He didn't even think about the gravity of what he was doing or how it would affect us. His only thought of me? That he wouldn't get caught since it was strictly during work hours.

 

(FTR, I say all of that without any anger or anything. It is what it is. I'm just hoping to contribute to the discussion)

[jennie-jennie]

The dynamics in the beginning of an extramarital relationship are like the dynamics in the beginning of any love relationship. The focus is on the attraction and chemistry between the two participators, and any spouse in question is irrelevant. The spouse is not participating in the new relationship being formed. Neither in person, nor being talked about.

 

It is all about :love:

[ladydesigner]

What a roundabout way of saying that the BS lacks empathy in affair situations too!

 

Considering that Spark started this thread asking if the lack of empathy is why the WS bad-mouths the BS, I don't think she was trying to get into antisocial personality disorder or other disorders territory (my assumption, not hers). What I took from the OP is that in the moment of choosing the affair, is the WS showing a lack of empathy for the spouse and family unit? My vote is yes. They are also showing a lack of forethought and poor decision-making skills, if they then profess to not know how things would turn out - or that they might fall in love, or that it would impact their marriage, or any of the other things that are often said by Waywards in forums.

 

My H told me that he wasn't thinking about me when he embarked on his EA. I was not on his mind at all. His thoughts and feelings, feelings that he had for the OW and feelings she awakened in him, were what was on his mind. Is this a lack of empathy for the betrayed? In some ways, no. In those moments, I didn't exist. But the simple fact that he gave himself, a married man that should have known better, permission to even put himself in that position says YES that is a clear lack of empathy. He didn't even think about the gravity of what he was doing or how it would affect us. His only thought of me? That he wouldn't get caught since it was strictly during work hours.

 

(FTR, I say all of that without any anger or anything. It is what it is. I'm just hoping to contribute to the discussion)

 

This is a very valid point. I did very much so lack empathy for my H during my A. I was still so mad at him for his infidelity that it fueled my A and my lack of empathy for him. I do believe a person has to lack empathy to have an A to begin with but does not necessarily mean they are a person of no empathy. I believe it to be situational.

[Owl]

The dynamics in the beginning of an extramarital relationship are like the dynamics in the beginning of any love relationship. The focus is on the attraction and chemistry between the two participators, and any spouse in question is irrelevant. The spouse is not participating in the new relationship being formed. Neither in person, nor being talked about.

 

It is all about :love:

 

That's what I said...a total and complete focus on self, with no concern whatsoever for the other people impacted by these actions/choices.

[Fight4Me]

I think it's also possible for some WS's to have empathy, but have it based on the rewriting of marital history. For example, using my own fWH as an example, he convinced himself (maybe as a coping mechanism) that I would be relieved when he came to me asking for a divorce. He was truly shocked when I didn't jump at the chance to be rid of him, and it took him only six weeks (the length of the A) to envelop himself in that reality. This is something he has worked on to figure out how he could allow himself to go there in his mind so quickly, and something we both work on to ensure it doesn't happen again.

 

Obviously, this created the most insecurity in me and my outlook on the future of our marriage. It's a question many here ask, "If the WS loved the BS so much, why would they have an affair in the first place?" In some cases, some may actually convince themselves that this is ultimately good for the BS, that he or she will be able to move on from the marriage without any guilt. Sounds warped, and maybe it's too far fetched, but what the heck, might be an interesting twist to consider in this discussion.

[Owl]

You have a valid point, O Wise One, as you often do but wouldn't that be limited to the one-time cheater? Could it also apply to repeat offenders? Take my xMM for example. I know from what he told me that I was not the first (according to him, he had 2 ONS in the past ) and I am fairly certain that I was not the last. Given his past and continuing behavior (still unsuccessfully fishing with me), could his actions be indicative of anything other than a lack of empathy for his W, M, & children, much less the OW?

 

Generally, I would say that most serial cheaters are so self-focused to the point they often could be considered borderline narcissistic.

 

Someone who can do this multiple times is very often completely self-absorbed with no care to what happens to others.

 

And in the majority of those cases, the serial cheater is probably not going through this as a "coping mechanism".

 

They're usually very aware of what they're doing, the process, and the likely outcomes...they've been down this dirt road before.

 

That's my thoughts at least. Serial cheaters to me are a different critter than single time wayward spouses.

[xxoo]

The dynamics in the beginning of an extramarital relationship are like the dynamics in the beginning of any love relationship. The focus is on the attraction and chemistry between the two participators, and any spouse in question is irrelevant. The spouse is not participating in the new relationship being formed. Neither in person, nor being talked about.

 

It is all about :love:

 

If the spouse's pain is irrelevant, that pretty much answers the question of empathy.

[jennie-jennie]

That's what I said...a total and complete focus on self, with no concern whatsoever for the other people impacted by these actions/choices.

 

That is the basis for any love relationship. You love the partner that makes you feel good. It is selfish love, not altruistic love like the love you have for your children, parents, friends and even for a spouse you once were in love with.

 

Affair partners are no more selfish than any other people in love.

[NoIDidn't]

The dynamics in the beginning of an extramarital relationship are like the dynamics in the beginning of any love relationship. The focus is on the attraction and chemistry between the two participators, and any spouse in question is irrelevant. The spouse is not participating in the new relationship being formed. Neither in person, nor being talked about.

 

It is all about :love:

 

This is not true.

 

You must be coming from the position of the single person involved with a married person. Because the MP considering an affair isn't thinking about it just like any other R they've embarked on. They are thinking of how to keep it from their spouse, family, and friends from the onset.

 

They might not talk about the spouse (positively) in the beginning of the affair, but that does not mean that they aren't mentally setting themselves up to live a double-life.

[jennie-jennie]

This is not true.

 

You must be coming from the position of the single person involved with a married person. Because the MP considering an affair isn't thinking about it just like any other R they've embarked on. They are thinking of how to keep it from their spouse, family, and friends from the onset.

 

They might not talk about the spouse (positively) in the beginning of the affair, but that does not mean that they aren't mentally setting themselves up to live a double-life.

 

I think the MPs are swept away by a tidal wave, desperately trying to keep their head above the water surface. The force of their emotions is too strong for them to resist.

[NoIDidn't]

That is the basis for any love relationship. You love the partner that makes you feel good. It is selfish love, not altruistic love like the love you have for your children, parents, friends and even for a spouse you once were in love with.

 

Affair partners are no more selfish than any other people in love.

 

Then what you are saying is that we all lack empathy in intimate Rs, at least initially. Psychologists would agree with you, but likely only to the point that its mainly in the initial stages of the R.

 

It may be true that APs are no more selfish than other people in love, buy the fact that they seem to think its okay to do this while still in a R with another is the problem.

 

That's why the question was asked of lack of empathy.

[Samantha0905]

What a roundabout way of saying that the BS lacks empathy in affair situations too!

 

I didn't mean the BS particularly -- I think empathy is lacking in the WS, the OM/OW and yes -- sometimes it has been lacking in the BS also. I was more thinking of how there doesn't seem to be much empathy on this board for lowly cheaters -- and of course an affair is a bad decision -- but there are generally all sorts of things involved in each situation.

 

Considering that Spark started this thread asking if the lack of empathy is why the WS bad-mouths the BS, I don't think she was trying to get into antisocial personality disorder or other disorders territory (my assumption, not hers).

 

Well, that was said a little tongue in cheek, along with the antichrist part.

 

What I took from the OP is that in the moment of choosing the affair, is the WS showing a lack of empathy for the spouse and family unit? My vote is yes. They are also showing a lack of forethought and poor decision-making skills, if they then profess to not know how things would turn out - or that they might fall in love, or that it would impact their marriage, or any of the other things that are often said by Waywards in forums.

 

My H told me that he wasn't thinking about me when he embarked on his EA. I was not on his mind at all. His thoughts and feelings, feelings that he had for the OW and feelings she awakened in him, were what was on his mind. Is this a lack of empathy for the betrayed? In some ways, no. In those moments, I didn't exist. But the simple fact that he gave himself, a married man that should have known better, permission to even put himself in that position says YES that is a clear lack of empathy. He didn't even think about the gravity of what he was doing or how it would affect us. His only thought of me? That he wouldn't get caught since it was strictly during work hours.

 

(FTR, I say all of that without any anger or anything. It is what it is. I'm just hoping to contribute to the discussion)

 

No anger took from your post. I don't think all WS spouses feel the way your husband expressed he felt during an affair. I did think less about it when in the beginning stages before the physical affair -- the flirting part -- because yes, I was being selfish and all caught up in the flirting part. Once the physical affair started, I pretty much felt guilty most of the time -- except not so much during the actual sex act. At times when I was heading to see my XAP I would totally wonder if I had lost my mind and could not for the life of me figure out why I didn't just turn my car around and head in the other direction.

 

So yes, I was lacking some empathy.

 

My point is just that in my long marriage I'm not the only one that has lacked empathy at times. Sometimes my husband has lacked empathy as to my feelings. His could just have been ignorance at times as to what made me tick or what my feelings actually were -- but after so many years that just doesn't fly as much.

 

In any event, I believe two people have to keep their relationship strong through communication and intimacy. This would help prevent affairs.

 

It's easier said than done for the long haul and people make bad choices at times.

[Spark1111]

I think that the hallmark traits of someone who participates in an affair (on either side...MM/MW or OM/OW) is a great deal of self-focus.

 

Those that conduct an affair and have no remorse/regret/care about the others affected by the affair simply don't consider those others in the triangle.

 

Their focus is on themselves. Their enjoyment. Their benefits.

 

They avoid considering what the costs are for others.

 

You could consider it a lack of empathy. Or you could consider it a 'coping mechanism' that most WS's and OP's engage in...narrowing their field of vision down to what they see as good, and avoiding spending any considerations on the potential negative aspects to others.

 

Just like the re-writing of marital history, etc... it's all part of what the mind does to avoid that internal conflict of doing bad vs feeling good.

 

Why am I, and many others, unable to do this? I certainly can understand the internal conflict of doing bad versus feeling good....

 

Hell, I grew up in the 70s!

 

But never at the expense of someone else's potential pain, whether it be an adolescent relationship, throughout college, and as an adult.

 

If they were attached to someone else, well, then, buh-bye.

[Owl]

That is the basis for any love relationship. You love the partner that makes you feel good. It is selfish love, not altruistic love like the love you have for your children, parents, friends and even for a spouse you once were in love with.

 

Affair partners are no more selfish than any other people in love.

 

Clearly we're different in HOW we love.

 

I love my wife well beyond any other person in the world. I don't love her and focus only on that love to the point where I don't give a damn about what happens to anyone else.

 

I think we're just different kinds of people. I'm ALWAYS aware of others around me, and very cognizant of how my choices and actions impact others, especially in situations where someone else may well be hurt by what I do.

 

I've been in a position where I've "been in love" with my best friend's girlfriend...many, many, many years ago as a young man. Even then...I took no action...because it didn't take a rocket scientist to tell me that there'd be a hell of a lot of pain if I did. And I do not regret that choice.

 

Love may be selfish...but my actions don't have to be.

[xxoo]

I think we're just different kinds of people. I'm ALWAYS aware of others around me, and very cognizant of how my choices and actions impact others, especially in situations where someone else may well be hurt by what I do.

 

Love may be selfish...but my actions don't have to be.

 

That's how my options look to me, too, Owl.

 

I know a lot of single moms, who don't feel they have the choice to be selfish in their romantic relationships. They have the emotional wellbeing of their children to consider. They may get "swept away" in feelings, but manage to stay grounded in action. If it is possible for them, it is possible for all of us. The difference is motivation. Most of us are strongly motivated by empathy for our children; fewer of us are strongly motivated by empathy for fellow adults that our relationship will hurt.