Is it cheating if my GF has a girl-girl experience?

[Melk66]

Hello everyone.

I ask of your patience to read the big text that follows!

 

Recently my girlfriend revealed to me she is bi-curious.She never had any such experience so far (not even a kiss).

Also she had posted an ad on a lesbian/bi site and chatted a bit with 2 bi/lesbians.

Her intention is to date and get to know a girl and then have a sexual experience with her.

When we discussed this i told her i was ok with her chatting and putting the ad and i gave her total freedom to experiment declaring though that it would make me feel uncomfortable.

 

After our discussion when i gave it deeper thought i totally freaked out.

The thought of a stranger's (female's) hand on her intimate areas felt wrong and gave me the feeling that it's cheating.

 

So we have discussed ALOT the subject 2 more times with no solution.

She does accept my points but dissagrees it is cheating if it's girl with girl.

 

So here are my points on our discussions:

1.My GF only enjoys sex if the person she's with "pleases" her mind.

So to me she will only have a girl-girl experience if the other girl pleases her mind.

So she will have a mental and sentimental bond evolved with whoever girl she is going to date if it has any chance to lead to sex.

So the things she claims only i provide to her will be provided by a third person.

Result it's the same thing as if she would date another man, or even when we had started dating.

2.We both look at homosexual people as persons.

So basically (even though neither of us is gay) we are 1st two persons that like each other and after that a man and a woman.

So apparently her dating a woman is the same as her dating a person whether it's a man or a woman.

Result in my opinion subconsciously she wants to date another person not just a woman.

3.She has an experimental/discovery nature.

Taking this as a fact i explained to her that on the same basis (and since i can't go with a man), it would not be cheating if i wanted to experiment with different styles of women (i.e. an asian or a blonde bimbo).

Off course she tried to look ok with that but she ended up saying the classic line "a girl with a girl is different".

 

4.She agrees when a friend of her tells her so.

Recently a good (male) friend of her broke up with his girlfriend.His girlfriend discovered she was a lesbian and that she was in love with my girlfriend.And even more recently she contacted my gf and made a move.

The 1st reason my Gf said no was that she might hurt her male-friend's feelings by doing that.

Am I crazy here?

If my GF considers that her friend might get hurt doesn't that mean she actually believes that girl-girl is the same as girl-boy?

And why on earth she would understand her friend getting hurt but doesn't understand me getting hurt???

 

Bottomline!

I wouldn't mind at all if she wanted raw sexual experience with a girl.

I worry though that since sex passes through her brain first, she will totally give herself to a 3rd person.And she might like it.She will like a different person.

I do want her to be free but i want her to have knowledge of what she is doing.

I don't want her to do something and then realise i was right.Because it will be too late.

Basically I'm trying to make her realise that she will cheat on me by doing that.If she does realise that I know that she won't do so.

 

So please dear people tell me your opinions and your experiences.

And always please take into account the facts that have been given

Thanks in advance for your answers.

[ReturnToSender]

Unless its something youre into and totally alright with, then yeah I would consider it cheating, Im openly bisexual, and while in a relationship with someone, Im with that person Im in a relationship with...the rules dont bend for bi- or the bi-curious.

 

Really, the only thing I find acceptable, no matter what sex anyone is, is if its something the couple openly shares together and is in total agreement on, like swinging. Other than that...no go.

[sally4sara]

It is cheating because it is sex with another person. It is also not acceptable because it causes you to feel distressed and uncomfortable. For her to go ahead with this means she has to ignore your distress and discomfort.

 

What I also find troubling is that you both seem to place less meaning on the act as long as the other person (a woman in this case) is treated more like meat and less like a person with feelings.

You're fine with it as long as she has zero connection to the woman and their interaction is one of ships passing in the night with no regard there after.

 

And she also thinks of this as her doing something with another person that doesn't consider the person she is with as a real person. Thus, in her mind, its not cheating. The woman would be some half human. She's not cheating because the person (some woman) doesn't count.

 

I think you both need to ask yourself why you'd both rather think of the other person involved in the act as inconsequential and sub human. Why is that better to you? Sounds like you're fine with your GF using women, as long as she doesn't give them regard. I find this is because of a general attitude of acceptance for women to be "of use" during sex, and therefore having sex with them is a lesser act of intimacy. Where as in both of your minds, if it were with a man, your GF would be the one being "of use" making the act more intimate.

 

Think about that when you say you think of homosexual people as people and wonder if you only think of homosexual men as people while thinking of women (gay or straight) as being "of use".

[Melk66]

sally4sara I understand what you mean so i will rephrase.

 

I wouldn't mind if she had a raw sexual experience with a girl which would want the same thing of my girlfriend.(both would use each other for just sexual pleasure)

Personally i do not cheat and would never do so.

But in theory if i did it it would be only if the woman i'd do it with would want the same thing from me.

 

Plus while talking to the girl that made a move on her, despite the fact she declined, she made her feel comfortable and gave her courage to go out there and look for what she wants.(Instead of grabbing the chance and mess with the other girl's feelings)

A thing i would also advise my GF to do if she had asked me.

 

And to be more clear not seeing either men or women as being "of use" (unless both ends in a sexual experience want that) is the thing that makes me worry.

I am jealous exactly because the other woman is a whole human.

And as a whole humans they might create a relationship.

 

Thanks for both your responses

[Hop_prophet]

If you consider it cheating then it is cheating. The fact that she posted an ad with the intention to date and have a sexual experience is cheating IMO, if it was not discussed with you. If she really feels like she has to have an experience with a woman, then why doesn't she involve you?

[sally4sara]

sally4sara I understand what you mean so i will rephrase.

 

I wouldn't mind if she had a raw sexual experience with a girl which would want the same thing of my girlfriend.(both would use each other for just sexual pleasure)

Personally i do not cheat and would never do so.

But in theory if i did it it would be only if the woman i'd do it with would want the same thing from me.

 

Plus while talking to the girl that made a move on her, despite the fact she declined, she made her feel comfortable and gave her courage to go out there and look for what she wants.(Instead of grabbing the chance and mess with the other girl's feelings)

A thing i would also advise my GF to do if she had asked me.

 

And to be more clear not seeing either men or women as being "of use" (unless both ends in a sexual experience want that) is the thing that makes me worry.

I am jealous exactly because the other woman is a whole human.

And as a whole humans they might create a relationship.

 

Thanks for both your responses

 

So let me ask you:

 

What if your GF just wanted to have sex with another man as an experiment and because it was in the name of experimentation - it was not, in her mind, cheating?

 

Would you even be on here asking if it was cheating or not?

 

Instead, because she is wanting to experiment with a woman, you're giving pause to consider if its okay with you and asking for the advise of others.

[carhill]

She does accept my points but disagrees it is cheating if it's girl with girl.

 

You have an elemental boundary conflict. I would accept her perspective, exercise my boundary and end the relationship. 'I accept that we have different perspectives on what constitutes relationship infidelity and I cannot continue with someone I disagree with on this elemental concept. I wish you well.'

 

Then, let your actions match your words. TBH, even back in my 'doormat' days, I would have never tolerated such an elemental breech of fidelity.

 

OTOH, if you were more open sexually, and had other gay and straight lovers on the side and were in an open relationship, this would be a non-issue and my advice irrelevant and inapplicable. It's agreement on perspective and boundaries which is important, not the precise subject matter. Hope it works out

[Melk66]

So let me ask you:

 

What if your GF just wanted to have sex with another man as an experiment and because it was in the name of experimentation - it was not, in her mind, cheating?

 

Would you even be on here asking if it was cheating or not?

 

Instead, because she is wanting to experiment with a woman, you're giving pause to consider if its okay with you and asking for the advise of others.

 

I am posting here to see if I am either narrow minded or correct.

I know for a fact it is not ok with me because her experiment will not have exclusively a sexual nature but also a sentimental and mental one.

And if you ask me why i would mind if she wanted a strictly sexual experimentation with a man, it is because my character hasn't been molded by society in order to see a woman as a threat to my partner.

 

In an imaginary society where everyone would be bi,or even in a smaller actual existing bi society,I believe they would find any combination of man-woman as cheating.

 

 

EDIT to respond to carhill also.

Exactly!I see it also as you say

"It's agreement on perspective and boundaries which is important, not the precise subject matter."

The reason i do not end the relationship is because it is really worth it.

And during the discussions we had on the matter i was talking on behalf of perspective and boundaries and she was talking on behalf of the actual subject matter.

And that's why we didn't come to an understanding.

Edited November 1, 2010 by Melk66

[sally4sara]

I am posting here to see if I am either narrow minded or correct.

I know for a fact it is not ok with me because her experiment will not have exclusively a sexual nature but also a sentimental and mental one.

And if you ask me why i would mind if she wanted a strictly sexual experimentation with a man, it is because my character hasn't been molded by society in order to see a woman as a threat to my partner.

 

In an imaginary society where everyone would be bi,or even in a smaller actual existing bi society,I believe they would find any combination of man-woman as cheating.

 

If your mind is made up that it is unacceptable, then stick to that. If she goes ahead and ignores your feelings on the matter, she isn't just being unfaithful on you, she is flat out betraying you. The fact that she already has a dating profile up to meet a woman has me wondering just how committed she is to you and how capable she is in placing the feelings of her partner on the same level as her own. At this point, if she really wants to do this, the only respectful things she could do is part ways with you and find someone who shares her opinion on the matter.

 

But staying with you means she has to honor your boundaries and expectations.

[karnak]

Use your common sense, man.

 

Jeez...

[michaelhopes]

She's already leaving you dude.....

Show her the door and come back to reality

[Stung]

I don't consider it cheating at all.

 

Some folks are just way to judgmental about alternative life styles.

 

I am bi and have dated and had sex with women. I have no particular problem with alternative lifestyles, including polyamory or swinging--but that's not the situation here.

 

OP, unless you explicitly agree to open the sexual boundaries of your relationship, of course it's cheating. Sleeping with another person, making your SO uncomfortable, and claiming it's all okay because the other person is same-gender as them and the SO is just intolerant, that's just manipulative and not kosher behavior.

 

Don't agree to open your relationship if it makes you uncomfortable, OP. It's nothing to do with being intolerant, some people are just naturally geared to monogamy and others--less so.

[carhill]

OP, here's a thread from a poster who embraced and participated in 'alternative lifestyles', in his case swinging, and I consistently found his threads and commentary enlightening and educational. I hope you find the balance and boundaries you're looking for.

[MorningCoffee]

You have an elemental boundary conflict. I would accept her perspective, exercise my boundary and end the relationship. 'I accept that we have different perspectives on what constitutes relationship infidelity and I cannot continue with someone I disagree with on this elemental concept. I wish you well.'

 

Then, let your actions match your words. TBH, even back in my 'doormat' days, I would have never tolerated such an elemental breech of fidelity.

 

OTOH, if you were more open sexually, and had other gay and straight lovers on the side and were in an open relationship, this would be a non-issue and my advice irrelevant and inapplicable. It's agreement on perspective and boundaries which is important, not the precise subject matter. Hope it works out

 

Exactly. The way you feel is the way you feel. Even if you could accept her position intellectually, your feelings are otherwise. Unfortunately, she does not seem to care all that much about your feelings on this question.

[Melk66]

Exactly. The way you feel is the way you feel. Even if you could accept her position intellectually, your feelings are otherwise. Unfortunately, she does not seem to care all that much about your feelings on this question.

 

 

Updates

Well i actually do accept her position intellectually.

But thats in a "perfect" world where my character wasn't molded in jealousy,egoism and monogamy.

On saturday i told her she's free to do it only if she deeply analyzes and understands the reasons she wants to do it.And share that with me.

 

On sunday she told me she was out with a couple of friends.

And yesterday she told me she had lied to me about sunday and that she actually went out with the girl that has a crush on her.

Nothing happened and they just talked like friends.

Now she says her curiosity has been fed enough.

But that's bulls**t and we both know it.

 

She decided to go ahead since a night that she needed me i was not close to her(i needed sleep alone at my place after a night she made me feel uncomfortable).

So she "realised" i put my needs over her so that's what she was going to do also.

I asked her if needing to sleep alone can be compaired to needing to go out and increase the possibility of her having sex with a woman and she finds its the same thing.

Whatever.

After an all night fight of her defending the actual action and me defending respect and truth in our relationship she understood how bad it made me feel.

While insisting she has not regreted doing it.

I explained to her that i actually get so frustrated because she is my number one "need" when i'm probably not even on her top 10.

After a sleepless night and a morning with no coffee i do not feel the same.

What was created in her that night i wasn't there for her has been created for me last night.

My trust to her has dramatically fallen.I do not care the same.And now i will put my needs over her.

 

This is what i wanted to prevent; an unhealthy relationship.

 

PS:It's always bad to talk about someone when he doesnt have the ability to defend him/herself.

So at her defense i'll transfer some of her words(as she told me yesterday)

Her dad abused her mom when she was young so she feels protective over women and she wants to explore that.

She had i think a lesbian kiss at the age of 12 which has left some pshychologic residues which burn her insides with curiosity.

 

 

Thanks you all for your responses.

[PegNosePete]

How would she react if you wanted to have sex with another guy? Would she consider that cheating?

[carhill]

To use a parallel, let's say I had a boundary of sexual fidelity within a relationship and/or marriage. Sounds reasonable. I expected and desired myself and my wife to remain faithful sexually. However, she had a different boundary. She is OK having sexual relationships with other people and is fine with my doing the same. This is an example of boundaries being in conflict. Let's say I presented her with this as a hypothetical:

 

How would she react if you wanted to have sex with another guy? Would she consider that cheating?

 

With her boundary, she'd say 'fine, honey, do what you want. Have a good time'

 

See where this is going?

 

OP, do you understand that it's possible to love someone and be incompatible with them? Take a look at the balance in your relationship. How hard is she really working to understand and respect your perspective? Take a good look at what you've posted here.

[PegNosePete]

With her boundary, she'd say 'fine, honey, do what you want. Have a good time'

 

See where this is going?

Yes absolutely what you say makes perfect sense. But I very much doubt she would (truthfully) say this in reality. It's pretty unlikely that she really doesn't consider girl-girl sex to be cheating, whereas girl-boy sex is. It's just something she is saying to allow herself to get away with it. Similarly to how a certain President didn't have sexual relations with an intern...

[carhill]

I was preparing the OP for the possibility if he were to ask 'the question'. What if he posed the potential, even limiting it to 'men', and she said 'sure'? Oops

 

This is parallel to a hypothesis I'm watching regarding MW's who 'use' men and claim they didn't cheat because they believe they didn't cheat and would never admit to cheating because, you know, they didn't cheat. Rationalization at its best

[PegNosePete]

I was preparing the OP for the possibility if he were to ask 'the question'. What if he posed the potential, even limiting it to 'men', and she said 'sure'? Oops

Yeah that's certainly very likely to be her answer, and I don't for a minute think it's a good idea to ask her that question, maybe I should have made that a bit more clear! My point was for the OP to imagine her reaction if he had suggested it before any of her "bi curious" discussions had arisen. Most likely she would be the one on here, complaining about her gay bf.

 

I can understand differences in boundaries. Some people think it's OK to flirt with others as long as nothing happens. Some think it's OK to sleep in the same bed as long as clothes stay on. Some people think it's OK to kiss others, and some think it's OK to have sex with others. As long as both parties know and agree to the boundaries, no problem. But I really can't imagine anyone genuinely thinking that same-sex sex is acceptable, whereas straight sex with someone else is not. To me this doesn't sound like a boundary issue; it sounds like rather feeble justification for doing whatever the hell she wants.

[carhill]

I missed that part, where it was strictly lesbian relations which were OK, as opposed to her having another man sexually.

 

Hey, OP, how about bringing them in together for a threesome? Everyone wins

[Melk66]

But I really can't imagine anyone genuinely thinking that same-sex sex is acceptable, whereas straight sex with someone else is not. To me this doesn't sound like a boundary issue; it sounds like rather feeble justification for doing whatever the hell she wants.

 

Exactly.

She often brings up her needs.Without noticing none of mine are done.

 

In her defense,

1.In my country it's really rare for your GF to cheat on you with a girl.So basically society thinks it's a rare exception.Therefore most people would find it ok.

2.She has had a bad past and her psychosynthesis might be a bit disturbed.

 

She tried to explain that "since I don't see it as a bad thing, try to understand I did not expect it to be something hurtfull"

I did explain to her that the dissagreement is about boundaries and not the actual act.

I do understand her needs.And i do want her to fullfil most of them by my side.

But boundaries are boundaries.

And as i told her "We got to sacrifice some of our needs.As i would sacrifice any sexual need that does not include you."

 

She has agreed to discuss and set up some boundaries.

The actual problem to be honest might seem like a stupid thing to say:

We have enormous communication with each other but not actual understanding.This is why I'm on here posting about the issue.

Just in case someone helps me with words I might not be able to express.

(I'm bad with words)

Plus we both deal in absolutes.

Through my eyes and probably my egoism most times when we argue I understand what she says but disagree, while she disagrees before trying to understand me.

The point is it's actually too late.

I was with her today and i didn't even feel like looking at her.

Last night I could'nt sleep imagining her "date".

 

The glass has broken and she doesn't do anything to fix it.

 

Thank you all for responding.

Don't get me wrong for not having broken up with her yet.

It probably is worth it.

If it isn't I'll learn the hard way.

 

 

 

By the way what does OP mean?

[Melk66]

I missed that part, where it was strictly lesbian relations which were OK, as opposed to her having another man sexually.

Hey, OP, how about bringing them in together for a threesome? Everyone wins

 

Another good example of her making exeptions that suit her.

When we had started discussing her bi-curiosity this summer i proposed to her the threesome(for fun and to see her reaction).So that we would be together on this.And so that it wouldn't be cheating.

 

Offcourse she said she doesn't want to see me getting pleasure from someone who is not her.

Again the fact of me seeing her getting pleasure from someone that wasn't me wasn't an issue for her...

[carhill]

So, you appear to have received some really good information from your GF. I think you understand it well. Now it's a matter of what to do with it.

[Melk66]

I miss your point at the moment(in a bad state).

What do you mean?

 

I know that i am stupidly tolerating.

But oh well she has had her share of toleration also at the past.

She could actually have broken up with me plenty of times due to impatience and intoleration but, like me, she thought it was worth it.

who knows anymore

 

Trust has been lost on my part.Now each time she'll go out I'll think of bad scenarios.

I know that trust is created in each person's mind.And it's subjective.

But in my humble opinion there are always some basic rules about trust (i.e. if you lie to someone you his/her trust to you will be decreased).

And well when trust is low it needs to be fed.

With truth, honesty and reassurance.

 

Mine is starving.