How can a nice guy learn to be a bad boy?

[Zaphod B]

I know this type of topic is common here, but I'm hoping I might be able to get some advice that might help me specifically. Glad to hear what anyone has to say on the topic.

 

I have found throughout my 43 years of life that nice guys finish last. Yes, it's true and anyone who tries to say otherwise is in denial. There may be the odd exception, but men know it. Yes, we know it! The biggest, rowdiest, meanest gorilla always gets the female gorilla's. The roughest, toughest bull is the one that gets to shag the herd. The most vain, arrogant male bird attracts the female birds. We see it all throughout the animal kingdom. It's evolution. It's natural selection, it's the way things are whether we like it or not and we humans are no different. No we're not, no matter how many people out there think we were created as something special by God.

 

A nice guy, as a rule, will only attract average women. They rarely get the really desirable woman - the women all men want... and if they do they don't usually get to keep them for long. I have managed to attract incredibly hot women in recent times, due to methods I have put in place to increase my confidence, but they are still far and few between. Before that I never had any luck at all. Even now, although most of them will talk to me they will show no real interest. When I do manage to get one, I am not able to keep her for long.

 

I have a lot going for me. I am over 6 feet tall, well built, healthy, intelligent, a good conversationalist, have a good job, GSOH, I am relaxed, laid back, never strike out in anger, don't have drug and alcohol problems and I know I'm pretty good in bed too because my long-term partners have constantly whinged and whined when not getting it at least every 2-3 days. (aren't I allowed to go to bed just to bloody sleep sometimes? Sheesh!) But sill, none of this seems to be good enough.

 

I know my big problem at the moment is that I am the nice guy. And I get this comment a lot... "you're a nice guy but you're just not for me." I know I need to be more of a jerk. I need to be able to "be mean to keep 'em keen", but it just goes completely against my personality and I feel so bad afterwards if I say or do something towards someone that might be considered rude or mean. Really! And I'm also afraid that if I try to be the bad boy, that not only will I be pretending to be someone I'm not, but it may backfire drastically on me. Sometimes I think I am better off failing as the guy I am, rather than risking failure as someone I'm not.

 

So what can a guy like me do to become more of a bad boy, but yet remain comfortable and true to himself? Is it possible for me to develop some of those skills? I believe it is, because I have managed to develop other skills when it comes to dating and getting the attention of women. One thing I am working on at the moment is my flirting skills, but being a bad boy goes beyond just flirting, doesn't it?

 

Any ideas, any strategies will be much appreciated. (Even links to other threads).

Edited August 30, 2011 by Zaphod B

[grkBoy]

I have to head out to work. I'll address this later.

[Zaphod B]

Looking forward to it. I on the other hand am off to bed. It's 1:25 am in the morning here, but I just had to get this off my chest because I am so pissed off right now about a woman who cancelled our date last night.

[Feelsgoodman]

To become a "bad boy" you need to, well, become a genuinely bad person. You can't fake it.

 

In particular, you have to stop caring about hurting other people's feelings and learn to actually derive perverse pleasure from doing so. Even more importantly, you need to learn how to manipulate women (which is actually not that hard to do). Basically, you need to start doing all the things you were taught were wrong and figure out a way to stamp out your sense of guilt.

[TigerCub]

a 43 year old bad boy is called an underachiever!

 

"bad boy" is for the younger ones.

 

You can't become a bad boy. You can try, but it will reek of effort and come off as an obvious lame attempt.

 

Also being a bad boy isn't about being an azzhole. Sure, some of them can be like that, but from what I've seen, bad boys are actually quite friendly, charismatic, funny, they just don't have much really going for them (besides drug deals, strippers, drinking, partying) - they're fun!

 

But most smart women with something real to offer don't settle down with the "bad boys", we have our fun with them, but we end up with the NICE guys, the smart, funny, accomplished, sweet men - not the "bad boys".

[GoodOnPaper]

But most smart women with something real to offer don't settle down with the "bad boys", we have our fun with them, but we end up with the NICE guys, the smart, funny, accomplished, sweet men - not the "bad boys".

 

Paradox alert. So if the nice guy is who you want to end up with, why isn't he good enough for "fun"? This pretty much sums up my entire single life.

 

I know my big problem at the moment is that I am the nice guy. And I get this comment a lot... "you're a nice guy but you're just not for me." I know I need to be more of a jerk. I need to be able to "be mean to keep 'em keen", but it just goes completely against my personality and I feel so bad afterwards if I say or do something towards someone that might be considered rude or mean. Really! And I'm also afraid that if I try to be the bad boy, that not only will I be pretending to be someone I'm not, but it may backfire drastically on me. Sometimes I think I am better off failing as the guy I am, rather than risking failure as someone I'm not.

 

I think the reason that it's difficult to shed one's "nice guy" tendencies is because the qualities that make us "too nice" are intertwined with core values that we really don't want to get rid of. Because the attraction and relationship phases are games with very different sets of rules, if we're bad at the attraction part it seems that we should be able to separate what's "too nice" about us and skim it off from the rest of our personality -- like oil and water. But I think reality is more like sugar in water -- taking out a lot of what's "too nice" affects other personality qualities that we truly value -- and in most avenues of life do us good. I'm in my 40s, too. If I could have transformed myself completely out of all of this "nice guy" frustration, I would have done so a long time ago. Instead, a more productive route may be to just try and add a little edge to what you naturally have.

[fortyninethousand322]

 

But most smart women with something real to offer don't settle down with the "bad boys", we have our fun with them, but we end up with the NICE guys, the smart, funny, accomplished, sweet men - not the "bad boys".

 

Why? I mean if a nice guy isn't good enough to have fun with, why should most real women be allowed to decide they're good enough to settle down with? That sounds like both parties would lose out on the deal.

[SelfControl]

Zaph...There's something in between a 'nice guy' (wimp) and a 'bad boy' (macho man). It's called the GENTLEMAN. That's what women really want. They want a man who will open the car door for them, say please and thank you, and at the same time be able to say 'no' to her when it is approrpiate (such as when she's testing you) regardless of whether you think it's going to hurt her feelings.

 

Let's say you have a date or two with a woman and you've been a perfect genleman so far. You picked her up on time, pulled her chair out at the restaurant, made her laugh and kept your hands to yourself. And, on the second date you even gave her a goodnight kiss at the end. On the third date, after you have made plans to go to dinner and dancing, she hops in the car and says, "I have to be home by 10pm for xx reason". You say, "Sure, honey." Then you drive around the block and immediately return to her house. She'll ask, "What are you doing?" You say, "I'm making sure you'll be home by 10pm so you can do xx". She'll say, "What about our date?" You say, "Don't worry about that. You just go take care of what you have to do." Then you walk her to the door and you go home.

 

Notice that you didn't get all bent out of shape and yell at her when she pulled this on you. That's what macho boy would have done. And the wimp would have gone out on the date anyway and cut it short to get her home by 10pm. The gentleman stood up to her, gently and indirectly, and showed her he had a backbone (meaning he said no to her) by not going along with her sudden change of plans. He may have hurt her feelings or disappointed her, but he doesn't care. He knew it was wrong for her to do this and he called her on it in a classy way. That's a gentleman. That is what you want to strive to be, not a bad boy. Bad boys aren't long term material, gentlemen are.

 

There are a lot of books on how to be a gentleman, but it takes a lot of practice and a lot of encounters with women to pick up on a situation like the one mentioned above and react appropriately. At first it won't feel natural to act like that if you aren't used to it, but after one or two situations where you pick up on it and act appropriately, and you see how positively she responds to it, you will gain confidence. Then it becomes second nature.

[rafallus]

Yes, it is possible to become a bad boy, in a nutshell you just have to care less and less.

 

It's just that you may find you're swaying too far to the other side and end up balancing out in the process.

 

But most smart women with something real to offer don't settle down with the "bad boys", we have our fun with them, but we end up with the NICE guys, the smart, funny, accomplished, sweet men - not the "bad boys".

And that's actually the very core reason for swaying into bad boys turf. It's pretty insulting to think of someone as no fun, but good to handle commitment chores. Edited August 30, 2011 by rafallus

[TigerCub]

Paradox alert. So if the nice guy is who you want to end up with, why isn't he good enough for "fun"? This pretty much sums up my entire single life.

 

Why? I mean if a nice guy isn't good enough to have fun with,

 

When a woman is young and dumb, she looks for the excitement that comes with the "bad boy", the thrill of just doing the drinking, partying, drugs, etc...

I don't think that's a crime against humanity to want to have some reckless fun when one is "young & dumb"

 

but as we get older, we value things differently.

The bad boy that still wants to party doesn't look appealing anymore because we grew out of them.

 

 

why should most real women be allowed to decide they're good enough to settle down with? That sounds like both parties would lose out on the deal.

 

Why shouldn't they decide who they want to settle down with?

 

Just like some men decide they want the hot or slutty girls at some point in their life, those girls are usually not the ones they end up with - men at a certain point (when they want to settle down and have a family) will ditch the "good time girl" for the "marriage material girl"

 

its no different.

[TigerCub]

Yes, it is possible to become a bad boy, in a nutshell you just have to care less and less.

 

It's just that you may find you're swaying too far to the other side and end up balancing out in the process.

 

And that's actually the very core reason for swaying into bad boys turf. It's pretty insulting to think of someone as no fun, but good to handle commitment chores.

 

I'm not saying that the good guys are not fun - of course they are, but its not the same reckless fun you have with the bad boys.

That's why, as we grow older and our common sense hopefully has become more "common" we no longer look for the dumba$$ antics of the bad boy.

[fortyninethousand322]

 

Why shouldn't they decide who they want to settle down with?

 

Just like some men decide they want the hot or slutty girls at some point in their life, those girls are usually not the ones they end up with - men at a certain point (when they want to settle down and have a family) will ditch the "good time girl" for the "marriage material girl"

 

its no different.

 

Perhaps "allowed" was a poor word choice. What I mean to say is that they shouldn't expect that the good guy would want to be a party to that deal. Besides, why would a woman want to be with someone she didn't find "fun".

 

As a guy, I can tell you I'd want no part of that arrangement. If women don't want me now, then they won't want me 5-10 years from now.

[Pierre]

I know this type of topic is common here, but I'm hoping I might be able to get some advice that might help me specifically. Glad to hear what anyone has to say on the topic.

 

I have found throughout my 43 years of life that nice guys finish last. Yes, it's true and anyone who tries to say otherwise is in denial. There may be the odd exception, but men know it. Yes, we know it! The biggest, rowdiest, meanest gorilla always gets the female gorilla's. The roughest, toughest bull is the one that gets to shag the herd. The most vain, arrogant male bird attracts the female birds. We see it all throughout the animal kingdom. It's evolution. It's natural selection, it's the way things are whether we like it or not and we humans are no different. No we're not, no matter how many people out there think we were created as something special by God.

 

A nice guy, as a rule, will only attract average women. They rarely get the really desirable woman - the women all men want... and if they do they don't usually get to keep them for long. I have managed to attract incredibly hot women in recent times, due to methods I have put in place to increase my confidence, but they are still far and few between. Before that I never had any luck at all. Even now, although most of them will talk to me they will show no real interest. When I do manage to get one, I am not able to keep her for long.

 

I have a lot going for me. I am over 6 feet tall, well built, healthy, intelligent, a good conversationalist, have a good job, GSOH, I am relaxed, laid back, never strike out in anger, don't have drug and alcohol problems and I know I'm pretty good in bed too because my long-term partners have constantly whinged and whined when not getting it at least every 2-3 days. (aren't I allowed to go to bed just to bloody sleep sometimes? Sheesh!) But sill, none of this seems to be good enough.

 

I know my big problem at the moment is that I am the nice guy. And I get this comment a lot... "you're a nice guy but you're just not for me." I know I need to be more of a jerk. I need to be able to "be mean to keep 'em keen", but it just goes completely against my personality and I feel so bad afterwards if I say or do something towards someone that might be considered rude or mean. Really! And I'm also afraid that if I try to be the bad boy, that not only will I be pretending to be someone I'm not, but it may backfire drastically on me. Sometimes I think I am better off failing as the guy I am, rather than risking failure as someone I'm not.

 

So what can a guy like me do to become more of a bad boy, but yet remain comfortable and true to himself? Is it possible for me to develop some of those skills? I believe it is, because I have managed to develop other skills when it comes to dating and getting the attention of women. One thing I am working on at the moment is my flirting skills, but being a bad boy goes beyond just flirting, doesn't it?

 

Any ideas, any strategies will be much appreciated. (Even links to other threads).

 

 

It is not about being nice or not.

 

It is about being too available.

 

Complete availability gets rid of the hurdles that fuel passion.

 

In any relationship the chase is exciting and the uncertainty of not having the mate in hand can drive any man or woman crazy. It generates massive love OCD changes in the brain. Once we obtain what we want it becomes mundane.

 

Don't be a bad boy. Just be a bit unavailable at some times. Keep it interesting.

[fortyninethousand322]

Perhaps "allowed" was a poor word choice. What I mean to say is that they shouldn't expect that the good guy would want to be a party to that deal. Besides, why would a woman want to be with someone she didn't find "fun".

 

As a guy, I can tell you I'd want no part of that arrangement. If women don't want me now, then they won't want me 5-10 years from now.

 

I tried to add this as an edit but Pierre posted before I could do so:

 

Come to think about it, if you're going to go for reckless fun when you're young and then go for the good guys when you're older, don't be surprised when you find that those good guys are completely clueless with women (possibly even virgins). That's the cost of conducting relationships in this manner.

[Pierre]

By the way some confuse door mat with nice guy, That is not always true.

You can be nice and accept no BS from women.

[rafallus]

I'm not saying that the good guys are not fun - of course they are, but its not the same reckless fun you have with the bad boys.

That's why, as we grow older and our common sense hopefully has become more "common" we no longer look for the dumba$$ antics of the bad boy.

Au contraire, in fact.

 

Recklessness/adrenaline junkiness/thrill seeking need not be correlated with individual being good/bad.

 

I know of people who are quite decent and quite an adrenaline junkies with exciting lifestyles too. OTOH, there are people who are pretty much jerks, yet boring as hell (I can say I've even been one for a while).

 

Point is, that excitement isn't a package deal with being bad, and can be isolated, much like penicillin.

[TigerCub]

Perhaps "allowed" was a poor word choice. What I mean to say is that they shouldn't expect that the good guy would want to be a party to that deal. Besides, why would a woman want to be with someone she didn't find "fun".

 

Where did I say that a woman didn't wan to be with someone "fun"?

 

As a guy, I can tell you I'd want no part of that arrangement. If women don't want me now, then they won't want me 5-10 years from now.

 

Are you telling me that you have not changed at all throughout your life?

I'm not sure how old you are, but for me at least, I know that I changed a whole lot throughout my life, especially between 22-28.

 

People change, we're not all born confident, relaxed and easy going - some people actually have to grow into that.

[GoodOnPaper]

Just like some men decide they want the hot or slutty girls at some point in their life, those girls are usually not the ones they end up with - men at a certain point (when they want to settle down and have a family) will ditch the "good time girl" for the "marriage material girl"

its no different.

 

If I was able to attract women for casual sex, I would be able to relate to this, but since I'm not, it is indeed different. It sounds like women are more attracted to guys they pick to have ONSs with than the guys they want to spend the rest of their lives with. It doesn't make sense that they don't think that the lifelong-relationship guy is capable of being as "fun" as the ONS guy.

[TigerCub]

Au contraire, in fact.

 

Recklessness/adrenaline junkiness/thrill seeking need not be correlated with individual being good/bad.

I agree. Its just for the "bad boys" the thrill they provide is mainly attached to drugs, partying, etc...

 

The "good guys" - their adrenaline thrill is more from bungee jumping, sky diving, etc...

 

both very good and fun in their own right, but the first is more appealing to a girl that's younger and more easily amused.

 

That's all I was saying.

 

I'm mainly speaking for me, so other women might disagree, I just find that as I got older, what's fun and thrilling changed for me.

The things I used to see as "ooooh can't wait to tell my girls about this" completely changed.

And to me that links to what I found thrilling with the "bad boy" and what I find thrilling with the "good guy"

[Elysian Powder]

a 43 year old bad boy is called an underachiever!

 

"bad boy" is for the younger ones.

 

You can't become a bad boy. You can try, but it will reek of effort and come off as an obvious lame attempt.

 

Also being a bad boy isn't about being an azzhole. Sure, some of them can be like that, but from what I've seen, bad boys are actually quite friendly, charismatic, funny, they just don't have much really going for them (besides drug deals, strippers, drinking, partying) - they're fun!

 

But most smart women with something real to offer don't settle down with the "bad boys", we have our fun with them, but we end up with the NICE guys, the smart, funny, accomplished, sweet men - not the "bad boys".

 

No offense, but the women who have fun with bad boys, players, or casanovas in their youth and then expect to marry (more like use) a good man,(or simply, a guy who isn't part of those groups) do not deserve such a man in their lives.

 

This nonsense of '' I gave up my virginity, my youth, the best years of my fertility and beauty, I'm now infected with lifelong stds, I have had dozens - if not hundreds - of sexual partners, but all of that should be of no importance to the guy I want to settle down with, and he should be happy for paying to have access/limited access to what some bad boy had - without having to pay for it.''

 

I know that there are many suckers/beta males falling for that, but thankfully my generation has been screwed over severely, for many - if not most - of the young women go through the bad boy phase.

 

Then we look at our older friends, at our fathers, at our uncles, only to realize that they're slaving away to provide, to be, everything many, many women didn't demand from their toyboys, but now expect the ''special man'', the ' 'guy who is lucky enough to have me when every bad boy and his brother had a go at me'' to be what they now want or need in a man.

I've been in situations like that before.

 

Becoming a bad boy is far more productive. It takes some time. Although if you can find yourself some bad boys and befriend them, the path takes far less to be concluded.

 

I began my apprenticeship by befriending the most douchebag of bad boys I managed to find. He taught me the ropes; how to notice the level of interest a woman has in you; how you can control and destroy your emotions; how you must dress, your body language, what workouts to follow to grow buffed, and so on.

 

The next action the guy took was to introduce me to the party girls.

 

From them I learned how to bang a woman silly and how to seduce them.

 

Years later I met my former gf. The woman who just wanted to have fun when she dumped me to be with the bad boy. She admired how much I changed over the years, how much more outgoing and charismatic I was.

 

Trying to get it on with me, I pointed out that if I wasn't good enough for her when she was in her prime, I certainly was too good for her now.

 

Felt pretty good.

 

Moral of the story.

 

Had I not been dumped for a bad boy, I probably would have grown some massive horns. That, and I'd be stuck putting up with her getting fatter and fatter, developing severe health conditions and then having to pay alimony and child-support, losing my house - like it happens to way too many decent guys.

 

How ironic it is that now I'm getting all the poon(high quality women) that I could possibly want whereas some poor guy is getting the 'I was the town's bike, but it's fine, I had no feelings for the men who are responsible for the lifelong stds that you now have; you're special.''

 

You know, I was checking out several other the threads. One in particular.

 

The porn thread.

 

Funny thing about porn. Since so many guys are being turned down over the bad boys/casanovas, my generation has found a savior in porn.

 

By the time most of the 'have fun, find sucker' women have their eggs rotting, most of us will simply ignore.

 

While those who turned out bad boys, are banging hot 20 year olds.

 

Can't wait to reach my 30's just to see the women who played that millenia-old trick on my friends, thinking that by having a PhD they're entitled to a good man.

 

No, I'm not bitter. I'm actually quite thankful.

 

No, I don't hate women.

 

No, I am not addicted to porn.

 

No, I do not live in my parent's basement.

 

Yes, I know that not all women are like that.

 

Kthxbye.

[fortyninethousand322]

 

Are you telling me that you have not changed at all throughout your life?

I'm not sure how old you are, but for me at least, I know that I changed a whole lot throughout my life, especially between 22-28.

 

People change, we're not all born confident, relaxed and easy going - some people actually have to grow into that.

 

I'm 23. What I'm essentially getting at is that I don't really think it's all that fair for me to be completely inexperienced, dateless, and a virgin until some girl gets tired of bad boys. Then, at that point she'd probably be disappointed in my lack of experience anyway.

 

Granted, life isn't fair. But, there's nothing requiring me to sign on to that package. If I'm not good enough for women now then I'm not good enough for them later. I'm free to make that assessment aren't I?

[TigerCub]

If I was able to attract women for casual sex, I would be able to relate to this, but since I'm not, it is indeed different. It sounds like women are more attracted to guys they pick to have ONSs with than the guys they want to spend the rest of their lives with. It doesn't make sense that they don't think that the lifelong-relationship guy is capable of being as "fun" as the ONS guy.

 

Ok, here it is (from my experience at least):

 

The guys that I had ONS of FWB Rs with were guys that I wouldn't date - sure I found them attractive (physically at least) but they were very lacking in other qualities.

 

But that was the stage that I was going through as well. I didn't want to commit to anyone and I just wanted to have my fun.

 

The good guys are fun. I never said they weren't. No one would be with anyone that they didn't find fun.

But the good guys are also NOT ONS people because they seek substance.

If I met a cute "good guy" that wanted to just sleep with me (back when I was in that frame of mind) - I probably would have hooked up with him...

 

BUT....

 

isn't a good guy looking for one night stands = a bad boy?

 

I always thought good guys weren't into that kind of thing...correct me if I'm wrong.

[TigerCub]

I'm 23. What I'm essentially getting at is that I don't really think it's all that fair for me to be completely inexperienced, dateless, and a virgin until some girl gets tired of bad boys. Then, at that point she'd probably be disappointed in my lack of experience anyway.

 

Granted, life isn't fair. But, there's nothing requiring me to sign on to that package. If I'm not good enough for women now then I'm not good enough for them later. I'm free to make that assessment aren't I?

 

I totally get what you're saying

"if I'm not good enough for you now, damned if I'm gonna settle for you when you're old and ugly"

I totally get it.

 

The poster above you also made a comment about girls giving their virginity to the bad boys or some noise like that (he wrote too much, I read most of it, but not all)

 

here's a personal fact:

The guy I first slept with was a good guy. He was my first love and I wanted to wait for love for my first time.

 

I could have slept with any azzhole bad guy before that, but I'm glad that I waited for love and I waited for him.

 

We didn't work out.

 

After we broke up, I did go through a phase of not wanting to get emotionally attached to anyone and most of the guys that were attracted to me where the underachiever "bad boys" - so I had some fun with them.

 

But I grew up a lot during that time and I realized that those guys are fun only for a short period of time and they are fun only when I was in a certain state of mind (not wanting attachment of commitment).

 

Now, almost 5 years after the "good guy" first love and i broke up - we found each other again, and we both feel very lucky to have a second chance.

 

I guess maybe I didn't word things the best, but what I meant to say is that the "bad boys" seem like a thrill, a short lived on, and only when a girl is in a certain frame of mind (that's my experience at least).

[Elysian Powder]

I'm not saying that the good guys are not fun - of course they are, but its not the same reckless fun you have with the bad boys.

That's why, as we grow older and our common sense hopefully has become more "common" we no longer look for the dumba$$ antics of the bad boy.

 

Not really. Human beings aren't as dumb as we make ourselves be. Why do guys go to nightclubs, risking their safety? Are they dumb? Nah, it's simply a itch they're having in down town, thus they seek to calm it down. Biological impulses cause the young woman to want a bad boy.

 

Science has proved this over and over, many times.

[GoodOnPaper]

isn't a good guy looking for one night stands = a bad boy?

 

I always thought good guys weren't into that kind of thing...correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Good guys want sex and intimacy as much as the "bad boys". Just because we may not be most aggressive or charismatic in a hook-up environment -- and thus feel more comfortable in a relationship -- doesn't mean that we don't want the same (or more) intensity and associated attraction that the "bad boys" get through their ONSs. If a woman wants to spend the rest of her life with me, then it should also mean that her raw, involuntary, primal physical attraction to me exceeds anything she would feel for even the hottest looking, most charismatic player she could imagine. Is that too much to ask?