It takes two to tango: personal responsibility in rape

[capitald]

Moderator's Note: This was originally posted as a response to another thread, here: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t43335/

 

 

I like how you take responsibility for things. That is what pisses me off about alot of people here. In a way, I like that you are more mad at yourself then at this man that you were raped. Its like an admission that you can't control the world. Obviously this guy is a bastard and he should be off the streets for a while, but I am glad to see that you are recognizing that it is partially because of you that this thing has happened. You are exhibiting behaviors that can make you a victim to predators like this. I am glad you see this. In any communicative game, it takes two to tango.

 

If you didn't put yourself in a compromising situation you probably wouldn't have been raped. Of course there are other mitigating factors like a history of abuse and they can exert a VERY powerful psychological influence on a person. I believe those psychological damages or traumas can be healed. Before anything however, you have to make some behavioral changes. I believe girls get raped often because they are so afraid of penetration or so uptight about sex, that they build up all this sexual energy and frustration and it causes them to lose judgment in a moment when they are intimate with a man. The woman in this situation decides that she doesn't want to continue because it doesn't feel right but the guy is hot and heavy and ready to go, and if he is not the brightest guy on earth he may not even be able to understand why you want to stop.

 

On the other hand, perhaps even the dumbest person has the ability to know to stop when a woman says no and he is choosing not to do what is right. In any case, its not only two individuals which cause a rape to happen or any bad or good thing for that matter. Its those two individuals and a little thing called society which has plenty of ills and benefits of its own.

 

I hope that heal from this traumatic situation. The only thing I can say is to stay away from bad men. Also, you might think about changing your attitudes about sex, its not a bad or dirty thing, unless you mean those things in a good way. And its not a thing that you should feel guilty about if you make sure to respect yourself. Also, you need to decide if sex is something you will want to do before you get so too close to guys because we are human and we inevitablly want to get some. I hope I have helped.

[cinnamonstix49]

It does not matter how incredibly smart or incredibly stupid someone is, male or female, they should know that when they are told to "stop" that they should cease the activity immediately. It is NEVER in ANYWAY the victim's fault that they are raped, I think that you are heartless to even write something as ludicrous as that.

[honey2005]

Well said cinnamonstix!

[dyermaker]

Capitald, sometimes you have interesting contributions, and I've always enjoyed how you attempt to dissect the human mind, but you're way off this time.

 

Your analogy sucks. It takes two to tango because dancing is a two-person activity. It only takes one to rape, and putting the culpability on the victim is destructive--even if she sees this for what it is, one crackpot with an opinion, she's still going to have validation for the feeling of guilt that follows such trauma.

[swtbonita]

i wonder if you were ever raped.. or if you were ever a victim in any situation..

 

A victim, is exactly that, someone that has been taken advantage of no matter what the situation is... rape victims feel that it is there fault but it isn't.. they did not ask to be raped.. most of them did not put themselves in the situation...

 

Maybe you think women should stay indoor and avoid living their life.. women should be afraid to go outside because they may be attack by "a not so bright guy" your words..

 

I think you would feel differently if a women who you love was raped..

 

What if a women you love was walking on the street, and all of a sudden a guy comes up behind her, hits her in the head and puts her in a car, and rapes her.. what if it happened at a club where they put drugs in her drink.. no one asks to be raped.. and it doesn't take two to tango.. usually it is the man that leads in tango, and he controls where a womens body goes..

 

We're living in a society that tells women it is their fault that they are raped, but it isn't... Maybe guys like you should learn how to control their bodies more and don't blame others who have control of their body and don't want others to take advantage of them..

[Kizzyfur]

Rape has little to do with the act of sex itself. I once read a story in the paper how a woman was hijacked. Helled at gunpoint and told to drive. She stayed calm and asked the kid where he wanted to go. He had her drive to a desserted road and intended to rape her. That is till she started taking off her clothes. Then he got scared and ran. She later told her husband about the incident and he actually left her. She wasn't necessarily willing to have sex with the kid. She knew rape was more of a power kick and she took the power away from her would be rapist. But her husband didn't look at it that way and divorced her.

 

Many people are taken advantage of when they're with people they trust and happen to get a little too drunk or someone drugs their drink. How is it that persons fault then? For trusting their friends?? Women are attacked and raped all the time for just being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

Even if someone is teasing or even willing to make out with you, you shouldn't automatically assume s/he wants to go all the way. It's not their fault you made assumptions. It gives you no right to make someone have sex just cause s/he got you all hot and bothered. I agree with swtbonita; one should be in control of themselves and not force others into doing something they don't want to do.

[moimeme]

I cannot believe this post is here. It revictimizes the victims to blame them and to allow this post to stand gives tacit approval to its blatantly wrong assumptions.

 

 

Myths versus Facts about Rape and Sexual Abuse

Myths about Rape

Rape is the result of overwhelming sexual desire.

This is a Myth. Sexual assault is an act of violence. The wishes of the victim are over-ridden by the use of coercion or overt violence, which may often be life threatening. Research shows that the primary motivating factors are anger and the wish to dominate and degrade, not sexual desire.

 

Victims provoke rape by their dress and behaviour.

This is a Myth. The crimes of rape and sexual assault are quite different to most other crimes in the extent to which the victim may be blamed. Up to 1990 victims in court, who were at that time mainly women, could be questioned about their dress and past sexual history. The shifting of responsibility for the perpetrator's deviant or irresponsible sexual behaviour, needs to be challenged. Unfortunately it is an attitude which can be shared by the victim, who may agonise over whether she/he did something to provoke the attack.

 

People are usually sexually assaulted by strangers.

This is a Myth. In 2002, 66% of clients of DRCC knew their attacker. In 14% of cases the assailant was the victim's partner or boyfriend. Research has generated estimates that as few as 34% of rape victims do not know their attackers.

 

Victim Offender relationship

Clients of the DRCC were more likely to report rape to the Gardaí if the rapist was a

stranger - 41% of clients raped by strangers reported to the Gardaí, while only 19% of those raped by relatives or boyfriends reported.

(2002 DRCC Statistics & Financial Summary)

 

http://www.drcc.ie/stats/myths.html

[moimeme]

Consent

 

In sexual assault cases the primary defense centers on consent. The following are some defenses to a charge of sexual assault:

 

"It wasn't me."

"It didn't happen."

"I'm not responsible, it was an accident."

"Yes we had sex, but it was consensual."

Consent is when you willingly give permission, through your words or actions, for something to happen. The crime of sexual assault has been committed if sexual activity has occurred without the consent of the complainant.

 

http://orcc.net/svfacts.html

[moimeme]

DON'T:

 

Don't judge her - this will not make her feel that she can trust you.

 

Don't make her support you. Although it is good to let her know how you feel, it is important that you don't make her feel that she must help you to feel better, she needs to concentrate on making herself feel better right now.

 

Don't tell her to get over it. Or that it's not so bad.

 

Don't tell other people. Unless she has given you permission.

 

DON'T BLAME HER

Remember, rape is not the woman's fault it is the rapist's. - So don't blame her, BLAME THE RAPIST.

 

http://www.rapecrisis.org.za/

[moimeme]

Although the legal definition of sexual violence only includes rape and some sexual attacks, women can FEEL assaulted by other acts ranging from harassment (unwanted looks, comments, offensive pictures, derogatory remarks etc.) to rape.

 

 

Remember no one has the right to do things to any woman that they don't want.

 

 

Sexual violence can and does happen to any woman, regardless of age, race, dress, sexuality, class, disability, occupation.

 

 

It is done by all sorts of men, regardless of age, race, class, sexuality, disability, occupation.

 

 

Sexual violence is never the woman's fault. Men are responsible for their own actions.

 

 

Women do not react in the same way to being raped or abused.

 

 

Rape is not an enjoyable experience for women as the media might lead you to believe.

 

 

When a woman has been raped or sexually assaulted her first reactions are often guilt and shame.

 

 

Women do not get over rape or sexual assault. They learn to live with themselves again; as survivors rather than victims.

 

 

Any sexual attention that is unwanted, forced or pressured is a form of rape

 

 

MYTH: Rape only occurs at the hands of strangers in dark alleys, at night, behind bushes, in lonely places.

FACT: Research shows that in the majority of cases the rapist is known to the woman. He may be a Friend, Workmate, Relative or Husband. About 50% of rapes occur in the home of the woman or the attacker.

 

MYTH: Rape is committed by a sex starved maniac overwhelmed by uncontrollable sexual urges.

FACT: Rape is not about sex, it is about POWER and VIOLENCE. The vast majority of rapes are carefully planned.

 

MYTH: Women 'ask for it' by hitching lifts, wearing short skirts and make-up, leading men on.

FACT: No woman ever deserves to be raped, abused or assaulted, no matter what the circumstances most rapes are planned. What a woman is wearing makes no difference.

 

MYTH: Certain 'types' of women and girls are more likely to be raped, abused, harassed and assaulted.

FACT: Women and girls of all ages, races, appearances, abilities, and lifestyles are raped and sexually assaulted

http://www.thurrock-community.org.uk/sericc/myths_facts.htm

[moimeme]

Shame on you, LS.

 

[midori]

Originally posted by moimeme

Shame on you, LS.

 

 

Hi Moimeme,

 

I'm sorry that you find this post's mere existence to be morally objectionable. We put a lot of thought into whether or not this post should be simply deleted, since it represents the honest and well-intentioned beliefs that a member expressed, however misinformed those beliefs might be. We felt that, although the post in question was definitely out of place in the thread in which the poster originally placed it, it was not right to silence him merely in the interest of censoring misinformation. On the contrary, we thought it would serve everyone's interests to allow such views to be aired, in the appropriate place, so that genuine debate might occur, and correct information provided -- which you have done. Many people have misinformed ideas about rape victims, and we see this as an opportunity for individuals who have mistaken assumptions about rape victims to correspond with others about the ideas they hold, so that they can explore the issue and, we hope, discover new information that they had previously not known. Unfortunately I rather doubt that can occur in a climate of venomous condemnation and moral outrage. I would be surprised if anyone who has questions or non-conformist ideas about rape that they believed were helpful would dare to insert a question on this thread.

 

I find it interesting, especially in the context of some of your recent posts about changing people's attitudes, that you find this post's presence on the boards to be such an outrage, despite the fact that the poster's intentions, however misguided, are clearly to help. Keeping this post is a decision that the moderation team reached only after considerable discussion, and I've outlined our rationale for keeping this post so that you can understand our reasons for believing it has a legitimate place here.

 

Thanks for providing the information about rape, which I hope will be useful to those who may not have known it already.

 

Best wishes,

midori

[dudesomewhere]

my pennies in the pot...

 

First off, my thoughts can go either way on this. When it comes to these matters my mind is as open as the range.

 

Victims are victims and no can mean no. Some women don't put themselves in such situations, others do, that is a fact. No woman should be so blind as to refute that...there is that range of human judgement regardless of sex.

 

Now let me give you some bg on me as I always think it helps in painting clearer pictures. As an attractive guy (at least in my demented head ) I've been profferred sex on numerous occassions by women. Numerous to the point that if I wanted to I could never feel I have no action...BUT I do not partake in that action, that is why I have so few partners. Only 4 and I have dry spells because I choose them.

 

That said, there are numerous occasions for rape and we all know it, at least I think we do...just some of us don't want to admit to them. There are total victims, those who get abucted with violence. There are the acquaintance rapes which most times but not all are wrong...because we know of cases where guilt motivates the claim to rape. The situations are almost limitless.

 

That said, let us paint a scenario. Say a woman is attracted to a vulgar and crass individual because she thinks such things are sexy and alluring...fine enough. She knows that on top of his troll like behavior he is a womanizer. The cave man that she is with only thinks with his sex organ and she is aware because that is what she is attracted to, his vileness. Knowing that...we still know there are cases where rape is claimed...even when a woman is attracted to the absolute most vulgar and masochistic of men...to expect not to be defiled is somewhat insane. So yes, no means no...but practice such behavior with a modicum of sense.

 

Some people though are too arrogant for their own good...that twisted perverted arrogance. Like lascerating one's flesh and swimming in a sea full of great white sharks and demanding not to be bitten. It's that type of insanity that keeps some of these men going...knowing that there are such equally perverse women out there.

 

The problem with this debate is that there are total innocents and those that practice ill judgement...and those that practice ill judgement wish to punish those they play with. This is more complex than it is.

[moimeme]

since it represents the honest and well-intentioned beliefs that a member expressed, however misinformed those beliefs might be

 

So the next time an 'opinion' that people of other races ought all to be sent to their homes because they take the jobs of citizens is proffered here, since apparently the fact that someone posts a post must mean that the person intends it to be helpful, and since it is only a controversial opinion, no matter who it wounds, that post will also stand. And the well-intentioned beliefs of someone who thinks gays are harmful and dangerous and should all be arrested will also pass that test.

 

despite the fact that the poster's intentions, however misguided, are clearly to help

 

In court, had you made such a statement, the opposing lawyer would have objected on the grounds that it is speculation and the statement would have been withdrawn, since nobody can know the intent of another. In fact, the way a criminal's intent can be derived is only by the results of the action he carries out. If the victim's dead, without evidence to the contrary (which cannot be speculation), the criminal's intent is understood to be to have the victim dead.

 

In this case, a rape victim was insulted and caused intense distress by this post. In court, therefore, the offender's intent would be concluded to be that he wished not to help but to cause intense distress to rape victims.

 

we see this as an opportunity for individuals who have mistaken assumptions about rape victims to correspond with others about the ideas they hold, so that they can explore the issue and, we hope, discover new information that they had previously not known

 

Again, a painfully weak rationale. IF LS wishes to provide opportunities to inform, it does not need to publish offensive posts. It could simply provide a links page. For instance, the links for the rape information could be published under a heading 'myths about rape'. I'd be glad to contribute links.

 

The rationale for posting this is seriously flawed and does not stand up when applied to other posts of the same ilk (misinformed and prejudicial). Therefore it fails all tests of logic.

 

Finally, it addresses the poster personally. Explain, please, how a statement like If you didn't put yourself in a compromising situation you probably wouldn't have been raped addressed directly to the other poste can possibly be justified, given all the information I have posted about blaming the victim.

[sportsloving]

Capitald:

 

Once again you surprise us...

 

Would you also blame the child who is gunned down by a drive by shooter?

[sinner]

Many people have misinformed ideas about rape victims, and we see this as an opportunity for individuals who have mistaken assumptions about rape victims to correspond with others about the ideas they hold, so that they can explore the issue and, we hope, discover new information that they had previously not known. Unfortunately I rather doubt that can occur in a climate of venomous condemnation and moral outrage. I would be surprised if anyone who has questions or non-conformist ideas about rape that they believed were helpful would dare to insert a question on this thread.

 

 

Well put, midori. An unrelieved climate of "venomous condemnation and moral outrage" shuts off discussion , debate and dialogue whether in the context of cap's misinformed "she asked for it" opinion about rape or the posts of unrepentant other women. When that happens, nonconforming speech is chilled in favor of morally/politically correct monologues. A "groupthink" moral posturing reigns.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with the mods' collective decision not to censor cap's controversial post. Very gutsy. Let a thousand flowers bloom on LoveShack.

[Max Overclock]

I can certainly understand why a number posters would have reservations about this post being revived. Doing so was a collaborative decision by the moderating team, arrived at after a significant amount of disussion and debate on same had occured.

 

As midori has previously stated, the post "represents the honest and well-intentioned beliefs that a member expressed, however misinformed those beliefs might be."

 

As posters will appreciate, moderators are responsible to ensure that LoveShack remains an open discussion forum. Many individuals will have controversial, sometimes misinformed, even perhaps somewhat irreverent opinions to express. Rather than quash those same viewpoints before they even have a chance to be discussed and debated, LoveShack offers a medium for these viewpoints to be challenged.

 

As has already been pointed out, the opinions offered ARE publicly held ideas that exist within the framework of our current cultural milleu. To delete those ideas (because we may find them objectionable) would be to censor ideas unduly. Their having been expressed and deleted, would not make them cease to exist. These types of ideas are best challenged and debated by shedding light on them, in the form of discussion.

 

Because someone thinks that a rape victim is to blame (either partially or completely) for his/her rape, does not make that idea fact. Posting the same idea on a discussion forum makes it no more/less so. The idea is easily challenged by current research and data from various crisis intervention programs and services.

 

Let us not forget that, even in the original post, the poster notes that "On the other hand, perhaps even the dumbest person has the ability to know to stop when a woman says no and he is choosing not to do what is right."

 

From time to time, posts cause much debate, both within the public discussion forum, and "behind the scenes." This post is no exception. However, we feel that debate and discussion on such an issue is an important step in becoming informed, active participants in an ever-evolving society.

 

Max

[Paul]

Hi all,

 

Rape is defined differently from locality to locality and it's important to note that if we're talking about unwanted sexual contact and advances, that men, women, and children can all be both the attackers and the victims. It would be a grave mistake to continue this dialog with the presumption that the victim will always be a women and the person committing the act will always be a male.

 

Laws vary from place to place, so the information and statistics you find across the web may ignore or not disclose their specific criteria to an international audience. We don't know the exact number of people that have been raped as it is frequently thought to be underreported, especially when the victim is male or a child.

 

An excellent organization and resource for information about rape and other sex crimes is the Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network (RAINN), at http://www.rainn.org:

 

• General rape statistics and methodology
  http://www.rainn.org/statistics.html
  
• Counseling centers
  http://www.rainn.org/counseling.html
  
• What to do if you have been abused or know someone who has
  http://www.rainn.org/whatshould.html
  

 

We must also remember that LoveShack.org is not suited for nor designed to accommodate individuals who are in crisis situations requiring professional intervention and assistance. While this site can be a great tool, it is important to recognize that those in crisis need to get assistance off-line as quickly as is possible by contacting their local law enforcement agency or emergency number.

 

Best wishes,

Paul

[Bobbie]

If you didn't put yourself in a compromising situation you probably wouldn't have been raped. ( capitald )

 

I worked with sex offenders for a number of years and they were all serial abusers who held a number of disparaging beliefs about women or children. They all minimised their offences and the effect on the victims: your statement above reminds me very much of the 'logic' I've heard many abusers use.

 

The compromising situation all women find themselves in is this double-standards world where we are so often defined by our sexuality by those men around us who feel entitled to behave how they like.

 

People do not ask to get raped, rape is a crime and the person responsible is the criminal rapist.

 

The myths which pervade this and many other patriarchal views of women mean that a woman who is raped is doubly victimised, first by her attacker then by the wider society.

 

'Why does he do that? Inside the minds of angry and controlling men' by Lundy Bancroft is an excellent book showing how social constructs undermine women, and for debunking the faulty 'logic' which causes violent crime.

[kirkyswife]

If you didn't put yourself in a compromising situation you probably wouldn't have been raped. ( capitald )

 

I was raped the first week of my freshman year in college. YES, if I had not been off campus drinking with someone I had known for years - he would have never raped me and then invited his friends to enjoy in the festivities. Ironically I had JUST been diagnosed with Uteran Cancer and was an emotional mess - my boyfriend had flown home to D.C. to drive his car out to California and was due to arrive early Friday morning.

 

When I found out that I had Uteran cancer my boyfriend was en route and was a couple of hours away - he called his roommate to pick me up so I could go relax at his house. The house was in prep for a party the next night but since his room was a whole wing all too itself I wouldn't be disturbed. I could crash out and wait for my bf - like I had SO many times before.

 

Stupid me - instead of locking myself in the room I decided cook my bf dinner before he got back so he could just heat it up when he got in - nothing unusual. The housemate made us cocktails and we talked about his gf drama - nothing usual. He always treated me like a little sister anyway so we ate but I realized that I was overly tipsy So I adjourned to the room and took a shower and got in the bed. I went to sleep and right before I hit the deep slumber I was awakened by the force of his penis shoving inside of me, the weight of his body on top of me and the realization that there were people watching him rape me. He had somehow wrapped my upper body in the sheet - mummy style and as he covered my mouth he pounded himself inside of me - I fought with my legs as best as I could but a 6'5" 235lb man is no match against a 5'7" 150lb. I cried, I screamed and he kept pounding himself inside of me. He bit me and talked **** to me but the whole time he demanded that I look him in the eye - he wanted me to remember what it felt like to have a man inside of me. If I cried out from the pain he'd bite me or pound inside of harder - when he came from missionary - he flipped me over and pounded inside of me doggystyle. When he flipped me over I saw 3 of my bf frat brothers in swim clothes watching and cheering him on - when he came the second time he flipped me over again and went at it again - it seemed he was more turned on as time went on because his erection NEVER went down. I can't tell you how many hours this went on - but when he finally got off me and asked if anyone wanted any it was 2AM. I was still intoxicated and bruised nearly head to toe - I started screaming as soon as he uncovered my mouth which caused him to knock me out with a blow to the back of my head.

 

When I woke up I was in the hospital and my bf said if it hadn't been for the housemate they don't know what would have happened. He said he found me and rushed me to hospital - CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS - he told my bf that he went to his gf house and they had an argument so he came home around 2am he said the door was wide open and it looked as though the house had been burglarized and when he got to my bf's room to check on me he said all he saw was blood - from my sheet and the back of my head. I immediately accused him and over a 9 month timespan endured the most humiliating taunting and outcasting that I almost started to believe that it was a burglar that attacked me. My bf and I broke up because he didn't believe me - neither did my city's police department UNTIL the gf recanted her alibi. He pleaded out but I didn't get to plead out - I was quite torn inside from the use of his penis and fist without lubrication, I was bruised and couldn't go to class for 2 weeks until they went away. My bf and I were estranged for weeks - he was torn because he said I was drunk and was i sure that I remembered.

 

RAPE IS HUMILIATING AND DEGRADING. To be violated by someone you don't know is HORRIFIC - imagine being raped by someone you do know and you assumed you could trust and then to be watched by others you knew and assumed you could trust. I TAKE no responsibility for this monster's sickness, I didn't ask for it, I didn't allude an idea that I was attracted to him. This makes me so sick CapitalD - you imply that she has done something to warrant the attention of psychotic freaks - tell me what I did? Was it the domestic side of me cooking that turned this jerk on? Was the wine drinking too much? WHAT DID I DO TO INVITE THIS PREDATOR INTO MY BODY?

 

Obviously this guy is a bastard and he should be off the streets for a while, but I am glad to see that you are recognizing that it is partially because of you that this thing has happened. You are exhibiting behaviors that can make you a victim to predators like this. I am glad you see this. In any communicative game, it takes two to tango.

 

If you didn't put yourself in a compromising situation you probably wouldn't have been raped. Of course there are other mitigating factors like a history of abuse and they can exert a VERY powerful psychological influence on a person. I believe those psychological damages or traumas can be healed. Before anything however, you have to make some behavioral changes. I believe girls get raped often because they are so afraid of penetration or so uptight about sex, that they build up all this sexual energy and frustration and it causes them to lose judgment in a moment when they are intimate with a man. The woman in this situation decides that she doesn't want to continue because it doesn't feel right but the guy is hot and heavy and ready to go, and if he is not the brightest guy on earth he may not even be able to understand why you want to stop

 

I think I shall now sign off because I am experiencing VERY powerful emotions at reliving this, which by the way occurred in 1990.

 

Gosh CaptialD - I'm now speechless.

[Samson]

 

 

Speechless too....................

 

kirkyswife

[Fayebelle]

I agree w/Kizzy here.

 

There is a reason that chemical castration is not used as a method of treatment or prevention for sex offenders. Studies found that this actually just made the offender become more "creative" in the manner they attacked their next victem and the level of other physical violence often escalated as well. If rape was a soley sexual offense than a woman, child, or man could receive a doctor's care and be on their way. As you know this is never the case (see Kirky's post who BTW has stated yet another reason why I think she is such a strong and wonderful woman). If the act of rape leaves lasting emotional and mental scars than it stands to reason that the act stems from emotional and mental problems- which totally blows the "poor fella- she just said no too late" reason right off the page.

 

 

LS -I totally agree w/ the start and continuation of this thread. The fact that ANY person believes this theory shows that education is still lacking somewhere and who better to teach than those who know. Perhaps people willing to turn a blind eye to strangers will listen to their friends here at LS who have often supported them in their own (IMHO- often trivial) probs. If you trust these people to tell you how to maintain no-contact or understand why people look at porn than you damn well pay attention when they all rise up (and for the 1st time I've seen) overwhelming agree that this theory is complete and utter BS.

 

Even if Cap is the only person who walks away from this thread more informed than he walked in -that is 1 more victory for the side of rape survivors everywhere.

[Fayebelle]

Originally posted by dudesomewhere

That said, let us paint a scenario. Say a woman is attracted to a vulgar and crass individual because she thinks such things are sexy and alluring...fine enough. She knows that on top of his troll like behavior he is a womanizer. The cave man that she is with only thinks with his sex organ and she is aware because that is what she is attracted to, his vileness. Knowing that...we still know there are cases where rape is claimed...even when a woman is attracted to the absolute most vulgar and masochistic of men...to expect not to be defiled is somewhat insane. So yes, no means no...but practice such behavior with a modicum of sense.

 

 

If so that's another thread altogether. I get SO mad at those people- it's like faking an abduction. Crying wolf not only trivializes your own probs but makes things harder on others w/ real issues.

 

Like the drunk girl who gets into bed w/some guy and claims he raped her when she passed out but really she just blacked out. These accusers make it harder for people like Kirkys to press charges b/c it allows ?'s like were you drinking and what were you wearing to be allowed in cases they have no bearing on. But people have heard so many stories about the 1st type that they SEEM relavent in a situation like K's even though there is no comparrison.

[lydiamarie]

i'm one of those girls who passed out or blacked out and then called it rape.

 

it was rape.

 

it was rape while it was happening and i was telling him no and attempting to push him off me. and it was rape the next morning when i woke up with bite marks and bruises and the awful smell of him covering me.

 

it is because of people who have your attitude, fayebelle-that if you were drunk enough to pass out, well, then...-that i am too afraid to report it. i don't want to get blamed in person, it's hard enough dealing with it online.

[Fayebelle]

I totally agree that if any point a person passes out or says no and the other party continues than yes it is rape.

 

However- if a person consents but does not recall b/c they blacked out then the other party is not guilty unless they intentionally intoxicated the victim for this pupose. As a bartender I have witnessed many people behave differently when intoxicated then they would sober- but (IMHO) that alone does not make them a victim unless someone slipped them a drug or more alcohol w/the intent of taking advantage of them.

 

I was refering to those individuals who feel the words rape and regret are interchangeable and are willing to ruin others' lives accordingly. To me people like that trivialize experiances like yours.