Posting to engage rather than preach

[midori]

Hi everyone,

 

Lately the moderation team has received many complaints from various members and guests, regarding posts in discussion threads that some find offensive, even though they do not contain what this site defines as "personal attacks." What people seem to find objectionable in such reported posts is a perception that the poster seeks only to berate others, not to engage them in genuine, meaningful discourse about a given issue. Some forums are more prone to this problem than others – it’s a frequent occurrence in the threads pertaining to Other Men/Other Women, for example – but it crops up across the spectrum of discussion topics. We moderators are often at a loss as to how to respond to such complaints, because the problematic posts often do not contain content that has been explicitly prohibited in the LoveShack.org user guidelines. Rather, the complaints regard a poster's style or perceived attitude towards others. LoveShack.org moderators prefer to censor/edit posts as little as possible, as we seek to allow members to express their opinions freely, with minimal interference from us.

 

The simplest solution is to ignore someone whom you feel isn’t interested in listening to what you or anyone else has to say – even if they direct their comments at you. No one can force you to respond. Reply only to the posts you find to be helpful/meaningful/interesting -- i.e., worth responding to. Posting a reply simply to disparage another member only injects hostility into a thread.

 

I would also like to suggest, to all members and guests, that you consider whether you are posting in order to explore an issue that you have some questions about, and about which you would like to get insight from other people, or if you are simply posting a manifesto/rant and are actually uninterested in hearing other views. We do have a “Rants” section in the off-topic area, so there is a space for such posts on this site. But if you’ve shared your view on a subject and other posters don’t appear to agree, you must decide if continuing to post in that thread will serve to further the discussion, or if it will merely allow you to have the last word.

 

I’d like to remind everyone of LoveShack.org’s User Guidelines, which can be found here: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/guidelines/. Of particular salience to this issue is the following:

We expect that all participants will respond to posts in their specific context, not to the person who has posted. While opinions may be formed of various members based on what they have posted in the past, any response to any particular submission should be grounded in what has been posted in that thread. Past disagreements should not be resurrected in new threads. It is important that criticism be directed at what is stated in a post ("I don't like your idea") rather than at the individual making the statement ("I don't like you").

 

As ever, when you encounter a post or other communication from another member that you feel is inappropriate, please report it to the site administrators. Please do not hesitate to do this – even if the moderators decide that editing or other action is not warranted, we appreciate the heads up. It’s helpful for us to know the problems members perceive.

 

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

midori

[Papillon]

I think it's a fine line between insulting someone and giving them the hard line that they might need to hear to help them put their issue in perspective. This forum is by nature, though perhaps not by definition, focused on the darker side of the human condition, and people are going to hear things they don't like.

 

Some people are going to take a very moralistic stance on some matters, and will respond in a suitable manner. Does the fact that they take a hard line on the subject make their opinions wrong? Nope...who's to say.

 

I think the watchword is empathy. If you cannot identify with someone's problems, then you aren't qualified to comment on them. Simple as that.

[YellowLioness]

Welll..... that's not how it works, though. Everyone, whether informed or not, will state their opinion invariably. For example, CapitalD's rape thread. Or, the current slavery thread.

[Beth]

I think we need to bump this up again. Please read Midori's opening post.

 

Please remember that just because you may find something offensive, it does not necessarily mean it is against the guidelines for posting. It is possible to state your opinion without making a target out of another member.

 

 

What people seem to find objectionable in such reported posts is a perception that the poster seeks only to berate others, not to engage them in genuine, meaningful discourse about a given issue.

 

LoveShack.org moderators prefer to censor/edit posts as little as possible, as we seek to allow members to express their opinions freely, with minimal interference from us.

Edited September 17, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Beth]

Originally posted by Papillon

Some people are going to take a very moralistic stance on some matters, and will respond in a suitable manner. Does the fact that they take a hard line on the subject make their opinions wrong? Nope...who's to say.

 

The "right" or "wrong" of an opinion is not at question. Opinions can be stated clearly without resorting to abusive behavior, such as inserting an inappropriate LOL or HA HA, or attempting to demean someone. It's been done on LS before. I know, I've seen it.

[Barby]

Where is this stemming from now??

[YellowLioness]

bad attitudes in general?

[Barby]

I guess I don't understand why someone would get mad and "report" a response..

on a thread of someone asking advice or opinions on things....come on if you're going to post a thread about something you're not sure u should be doing then get upset when someone has some other opinion on what you should be doing, be it from a moral or social, ect stand point why get upset???

 

Why post this at all, people need to not take general advice so personal or else why waste people's time posting on here?

[Beth]

Originally posted by Barby

I guess I don't understand why someone would get mad and "report" a response..

on a thread of someone asking advice or opinions on things....come on if you're going to post a thread about something you're not sure u should be doing then get upset when someone has some other opinion on what you should be doing, be it from a moral or social, ect stand point why get upset???

 

Why post this at all, people need to not take general advice so personal or else why waste people's time posting on here?

 

Barby, sometimes we receive complaints from people who do not like how others post overall, not just a single thread or response. There are several threads floating around with posts that are rude and offensive to some, but not in direct violation of our guidelines. This was just a refresher for everyone and I bumped it up because I thought it was an excellent post.

 

I will not cite examples or name individuals because the truly abusive posts have, or are, being deleted or edited. Some posts will remain even though they may appear to be rude or offensive to some.

[Barby]

Well I tend to think that all these types of posts are aimed at me though I KNOW they aren't...however I do hope if one of my posts or responses are complained about I would hope someone would have the decency to tell me in private or even on the thread that they were going to 'report' me or that they were offended.....

 

and if something is inappropriate then I hope that a mod PM's me to let me know....

[meanon]

Barby:

I guess I don't understand why someone would get mad and "report" a response..

I'm sure you're not the only one, Barby. As someone who occasionally reports posts I'll attempt to explain:

 

I report posts when I feel that someone is being unnecessarily hurt by fellow LS members. It doesn't happen often. I've never reported one of yours, Barby.

 

Some are more sensitive, or insensitive than others. Wouldn't life be boring if we were all the same? No-one is deliberately cruel on purpose, unless they are a troll! All are here to help and do so most of the time, yet some also regularly offend others. I think that those that have their posts frequently edited should ask themselves if they are disparaging the person or their views; if they sometimes post to preach, rather than engage.

 

We all deserve a modicum of respect from each other. General advice is fine but sometimes the response is an attack on someone's personality, intellectual capacity or morality. That's a different matter entirely. We ask for or give advice, we do not invite a mugging. The words of strangers should not hurt but, for some of us, they can. This should come as no surprise. The whole point of the site is that those that seek advice are open to influence from the views of people they don't know.

 

For me it is all about the way things are said, rather than whether we challenge or not. As Papillon says, the watchword is empathy. Given that, I think this is the most important thing to remember:

It is important that criticism be directed at what is stated in a post ("I don't like your idea") rather than at the individual making the statement ("I don't like you").

 

I've never reported a post directed at me, but I have reported posts where I feel someone has been treated in an unfair or cruel manner. Sometimes I say something on the thread, sometimes I don't. If I think the person will be receptive to a personal intervention then I go for it. If I think it will end up in an argument on the thread, I don't. I don't like reporting posts, I don't like conflict but more than this, I don't like people being treated with a lack of respect, especially when I can see it hurts them.

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by Barby

Well I tend to think that all these types of posts are aimed at me though I KNOW they aren't...however I do hope if one of my posts or responses are complained about I would hope someone would have the decency to tell me in private or even on the thread that they were going to 'report' me or that they were offended.....

 

and if something is inappropriate then I hope that a mod PM's me to let me know....

 

 

Silly girl! (I mean that in a nice way, not mocking or bashing) I've seen a lot of your posts and I don't recall any that would fit the description of someone who was posting to engage rather than to preach. You state your opinions without putting others down.

[moimeme]

IMHO, people often mistake disagreement with opinions with 'attacks' on them. The two are very different. Someone can hate hate HATE what I have to say and tear it to pieces and it's no skin off my nose - and hopefully it oughtn't be off anybody else's either. It's one thing to disagree with ideas and quite another to attack someone personally.

[Pocky]

Originally posted by moimeme

IMHO, people often mistake disagreement with opinions with 'attacks' on them. The two are very different. Someone can hate hate HATE what I have to say and tear it to pieces and it's no skin off my nose - and hopefully it oughtn't be off anybody else's either. It's one thing to disagree with ideas and quite another to attack someone personally.

 

I agree.

[XNemesisX]

I don't understand why some posts are deleted to be honest but I guess to some people they might seem offensive. I am a hard person to offend though, I really don't take much offense to anything so maybe I am not the person to be saying this.

 

I do think there are a few people who do attack KMT though. She is one of the people that I have noticed being attacked more so than others.

 

I have personally never reported a post. I don't see how some people can be so hurt/offended just by someone's opinion on a message board.

 

I also do not understand why posts complimenting people or telling them they are good looking are deleted. I have noticed this and I was thinking -

 

Are we also not allowed to flirt with other members or comment about their appearance in a good way? I was just wondering....sometimes these kinds of posts are deleted and sometimes they aren't.

[Paul]

Hi XNemesisX,

 

Originally posted by XNemesisX

I don't understand why some posts are deleted to be honest but I guess to some people they might seem offensive. I am a hard person to offend though, I really don't take much offense to anything so maybe I am not the person to be saying this.

 

Please see our Community Guidelines, which outline the framework for how we decide what is and what is not appropriate for the forums. If a message, comment, or thread fails to meet the criteria in those guidelines, we will likely delete it. See a bit further down for more on this....

 

I have personally never reported a post. I don't see how some people can be so hurt/offended just by someone's opinion on a message board.

 

Posts should be reported to us to make sure we see them--the idea that the report post mechanism should be used as a retaliatory measure is a concept we're trying to better understand and debunk. We just discussed this in a previous thread. Rather than reiterate, I'll point you to my comments therein.

 

I also do not understand why posts complimenting people or telling them they are good looking are deleted. I have noticed this and I was thinking -

 

Are we also not allowed to flirt with other members or comment about their appearance in a good way? I was just wondering....sometimes these kinds of posts are deleted and sometimes they aren't.

 

Our site is meant to be as inclusive as possible and invite all who may come upon it to participate in the discussion. Comments related to a person's appearance as depicted in the member's avatar would be considered a personal message to the member and should be sent privately. It is wholly inappropriate in this community to comment on or rate an individual's avatar anywhere on the public forums.

 

Avatars are meant to be a form of personal expression and identification and were not intended as a means to share photographs. We highly discourage the use of photographs in avatars and have had numerous instances where individuals posting with a photograph in their avatar have contacted us in a state of panic because a friend, colleague, neighbor, etc. recognized them while viewing the site. There are far, far more people viewing our site then there are posting and posting a picture, in my opinion, is an unnecessary risk that may place members in a position where their privacy and identity might be compromised. It's happened before and will likely happen again.

 

Any sort of flirtatious messages or other exchanges between a small, select group of people should be conducted in private and have no place on our forums, as highlighted in Community participation and inclusion.

 

Now you bring up another key point--why do some of the messages stay and some get deleted? The simple fact is that at the present time, there are hundreds of posts made each day and a very small group of moderators attempting to ensure we're maintaining an appropriate environment for collaborative peer-to-peer exchanges. It's not that we feel some personal messages are okay while others aren't--rather it's just that we haven't actually seen the posts that appear to have been left behind. Simply put: We need more moderators and more people reporting posts!

 

Right now, we're working with a group of individuals who have expressed an interest in taking on the challenge of becoming a moderator and we're developing a new approach to better ensure that we're not only acting consistently and fairly, but that our moderators are not so overwhelmed by the sheer volume of posts that appear here each day (not to mention the e-mails we receive and other tasks). I encourage anyone that may be interested in having a hand in that effort to Contact Us for more information and to let us know of your interest. LoveShack.org is constantly evolving and relies heavily on the input of all the people who have committed themselves to volunteering behind-the-scenes. We're particularly interested in hearing from those of you that have been around for a while and have actively participated in the community to ensure that you have an opportunity to express your opinions during those discussions and help steer us toward the future of the community.

 

Best wishes,

Paul

[whichwayisup]

I guess say what you're gonna say advice/thoughts wise, but add in either at the start of the reply or near the end, "Please don't take this personally, I'm not attacking you, I just totally disagree with what you're saying..." That way the original poster can actually read that...And hopefully understand too.

 

Just my thoughts on this...

[Fester Lungblood]

You know, all of this "reporting crap" is truly childlike and smacks of emotional insecurity to me. If I say something that others think is stupid and they tell me so, that's their right in my opinion. All of this policing of language, tone, attitudes, and so on is just more proof of how our society is heading toward some candy-coated fascist destination where evryone has to follow the rules of the state. And the trouble is, people are really trying to avoid that sort of thing but with every measure of control, aimed at making sure everyone plays nicely, the framework of is being built.

 

 

I understand that LS has rules and the founders want it that way. And I can even see how some rules realy do help out like preventing some idiot from posting 99 FuG You's just to bug people. But complaining because, someone says they hate you, or thinks your opinions aren't worth squat just displays insecurity, defensiveness, and ultimately...weakness.

[Paul]

Hi Fester Lungblood,

 

Originally posted by Fester Lungblood

You know, all of this "reporting crap" is truly childlike and smacks of emotional insecurity to me. If I say something that others think is stupid and they tell me so, that's their right in my opinion. All of this policing of language, tone, attitudes, and so on is just more proof of how our society is heading toward some candy-coated fascist destination where evryone has to follow the rules of the state. And the trouble is, people are really trying to avoid that sort of thing but with every measure of control, aimed at making sure everyone plays nicely, the framework of is being built.

 

LoveShack.org is not a state-run organization. We're a private organization founded by individuals with a goal of providing a framework best suited to productive collaboration and self-discovery. Our guidelines are not intended as a means of oppression, but rather to prevent the opinions of a less vocal minority from being repressed and encouraging scholarly debate. While the site is open to anyone who would like to participate, when doing so you're guests in our private home and are subject to the boundaries we set. Posting here is a privilege, not a right.

 

The report post feature is very useful as we deal with an ever increasing number of posts. You touch upon our current concern--that the report tool has been conceptualized as a means of tattling or retaliation. It's really just a flagging system that identifies posts others feel may jeopardize our standards and the environment we hope to maintain.

 

I understand that LS has rules and the founders want it that way. And I can even see how some rules realy do help out like preventing some idiot from posting 99 FuG You's just to bug people. But complaining because, someone says they hate you, or thinks your opinions aren't worth squat just displays insecurity, defensiveness, and ultimately...weakness.

 

The overwhelming majority of reported posts we receive are valid concerns. We have not had a problem with people reporting posts because they disagree with the viewpoint expressed. Those instances can probably be counted on one hand and were almost always made by individuals that were otherwise abusive while using the site. This may be a feature that we'll rename in the future as the term "report" has a certain connotation which we're trying to avoid. While the developers of this forum software chose that particular name, we don't feel it accurately reflects how we use it and we have significantly modified the reporting system to address our particular needs.

 

Reporting posts can't be used to squelch the opinions of others as we manually review each report we receive. Posts are not removed or edited automatically. Rather, they're put in a queue for review by the moderation team.

 

I hope this helps clarify some misconceptions and allay any concerns over the use of the report post feature as a means of censorship.

 

Best wishes,

Paul