How did you make you marriage work - LadyJane/Moose?

[fyrwyfe]

I have read many of your posts and find it so encouraging that you were able to make your marriages great again. I know each of your circumstances are different, but..... how did you do it? I seen here on LS various posts, perhaps even from you both, about two authors, Harley & Chapman. I've read some of Harley's Basic Concepts online and plan to take his emotional needs questionnaire, but I'm not sure what to do with my husband. He's not a big reader, especially when it's about relationships, so trying to get him to read one of their books won't go over well. He has caused some real problems in our marriage, but he says he wants to work on it & we are seeing a MC - that MC told him he needs to see an IC as well, although he's been poopooing the idea. I just don't feel like I have anything left to give (empty tank), although I do realize I cannot be this way if I want things to get better... In this state, how do I do it? Any advice?

 

Thanks both (and anyone else who may have something to add...)

[Ladyjane14]

First, I have to say....I'm very honored that you asked for my opinion. I'll be happy to tell you what worked for me and my husband. Although, just like every other aspect of life and growth....I think we all have to muddle through as best as we can.

 

I'll be honest....There were times when I felt like I hated my husband, and all I could think about was divorcing him every time he opened his mouth. Our marriage was so dead that I was almost obsessed with thoughts of divorce, and what it might be like to just NOT have to deal with him everyday.

 

We've been married for over 20 years, and second decade was mostly miserable. I had taken to avoidance of him as much as possible. He was such an a*hole most of the time, I just didn't want to be around him. He was angry, self-centered, controlling, and always, always critical.

 

So, I mostly just did my own thing, and spent time with the kids. I have LOTS of interests and hobbies that can fill my time. I can amuse myself and don't often need companionship.

 

I walked on eggshells, doing whatever I needed to do to keep the peace, but always with GREAT resentment for it. I put in occasional and somewhat lackluster performances in the bedroom, and not because I wanted to....but rather as just one more chore I had to do in order to keep my household running smoothly, I cooked the kinds of food that he liked, took responsibility for the kids, and kept the household crud at bay. (I'm not a neatnik by any means....more of a clutterbug, so as long as the place isn't moldy, I'm inclined to be okay with it. )

 

See, the thing is....it was a pretty bad relationship, but not so bad as to be intolerable. That was the problem. There were times when EVERYBODY I knew thought I should just leave him. They couldn't understand how I tolerated it. Even his own mother will tell you that I'll never do a day in Purgatory just for having the patience to put up with him.

 

But it's not like he was beating on me, or cheating on me. So I couldn't find a good enough reason to break up our family.

 

You might think that when he finally did cross the line, and give me a good enough reason, I'd have leapt at the opportunity. And to tell the truth....I really wanted to! I was so fed up, and just so tired of it all.

 

But when the choice was upon me, and I was justified in making a decision to end the marriage....I couldn't do it. When the moment came to choose, I had to go where my heart was...and it was still , surprisingly enough, with him.

 

I still loved him.

 

Love is not always what people think it is. The media does us all a huge disservice in propagating the heart-pounding, weak-in-the-knees romance of infatuation and lust. They market that as love, and people buy into it.

 

There are better examples all around us, but we rarely pay attention. You can observe it in old folks sometimes. The ones who stuck it out, and still have love for one another, and haven't become bitter with age.

 

One example I noticed the other day, and I think lots of people have seen it this one:

 

An older couple comes into the office, and the old man is giving me a veritable litany of complaints, and showing off with the same old stories she's heard a thousand times. He's been known to show me his latest fashion statement, once in the form of a wildly unattractive hat, all the while giving me all the assorted and sundry details about how I might also find such a fabulous bargain.

 

And the little old lady who has been the love of his life for 50 odd years or so...can give you such a look. She can roll her eyes in complete exasperation with him, and yet at the same time convey to you with a single glance that if you are even one whit less than completely compassionate with him.....she'll be more than happy to carve out your still-beating heart with a rusted spoon.

 

That's what true love is. He's imperfect, and even a complete pain in the neck sometimes. But he's HERS. And she loves him. He feels her love, and is comforted by it... and returns it.

 

(more later....)

[SleepingLover]

Ladyjane14

 

That was beautiful... (cry)

[Ladyjane14]

So, anyway....for me, love is comfort. The pheromones and adrenaline of infatuation only last so long. It's the comfort of being loved that lasts. Life is hard, and it's not guaranteed from moment to moment. It's stressful, and in the end...you are going to get your heart broke a few times.

 

Cheesy Dr. Phil-ism....the one who loves us is "our soft place to fall". It's pop-psychology, but representative nonetheless.

 

The Hollywood version of love that so many of us buy into is just misleading. Once you've redefined love into real-life terms, it's easy to see how your EXPECTATIONS have been misleading you.

 

Look around just here at LS. You'll see "He/She didn't make me happy, so I left". Or "My OP made me happier than my spouse ever could." All kinds of variations on that theme.

 

People don't expect their children to MAKE them happy. But they seem to expect their SO to do it. They'll say that they understand that they must, themselves, take responsibility for their own happiness, and yet I don't think many people really do.

 

Other people can't MAKE us happy. We get that from within ourselves. Because if we are in reliance for our happiness based on someone else's actions we are destined for disappointment and resentment, even if our SO is the BEST human being on the face of the planet.

 

People will argue with me, I'm sure...but my first move in rebuilding my marriage was to lower my EXPECTATIONS. Did I lower my standards? Yes, and no.

 

I lowered my standard in expectations of what his contribution should be. And I raised my standards of what my personal responsibility in MAKING my own happiness ought to be.

 

I took responsibility in asking for what I needed from him....NOT what I wanted, but ONLY what I needed. (There's a HUGE difference in what you want, and what you need. )

 

And I took responsibility in making sure that his needs were met....and went a little overboard while I was at it and threw in quite a few wants as a bonus.

 

I think reading The Five Love Languages by Chapman, and His Needs / Her Needs by Harley, would indeed be very beneficial for you. Because once you start defining NEEDS as opposed to WANTS, you're in for a few surprises.

 

Men and women are so different, and still they vary as well from person to person.

 

Weirdly, my husband needs me to feed him. He's a grown man. He can certainly make his own sandwich. But when I make that same sandwich, he FEELS my love for him. It's like nourishing both his body and his soul. You'd think that would be a want. And for some people it is.....but not for him. He needs that in order to feel loved.

 

So, am I MAKING him happy? I don't think so, because truly I don't think I can. What I can do is to be sure that there isn't a deficit in his needs. In so doing, I can make it easier for him to select happiness, because he has less to worry about in the way of unfilled voids. He's got more time to make happiness choices, because he's not having to stop and fill in all the pot-holes in his life.

 

I do that, because I love him. There's nothing else that would give me the incentive to prioritize someone else's needs at the same level as I would my own.

 

And really, when push comes to shove....I'm not as NEEDY as he is. I actually spend more time "prioritizing his needs as I would my own", then I do with mine. He just has more needs than I do! (Sometimes, I feel like I ought to make some up just to give him more to do. )

 

The trouble we get into so often is that we've failed for so long to prioritize our partner....and feel resentment that they have also failed to prioritize us.

 

The resentment is overwhelming. It BLOCKS our ability to put ourselves out there and actively demonstrate our love. Mostly, because it's blocking our ability to feel the love we have for our spouse. We just don't feel like we love them anymore.

 

Then it's all..."I love you, but I'm not in love with you". (That one's just stooopid. But I won't digress, because I'd be another two pages in describing how goofy that one is.)

 

I honestly believe that the way around the harsher emotions of anger and resentment, is the utilization of sympathy. When you're resentful, you can't choose "love" as your emotion du jour. It's like it's not even there when it's blocked up. But most of us can still access "sympathy", even when we're REALLY angry.

 

Example: How many times have you thought of something to say to your partner that would be ABSOLUTELY devastating while you were in an arguement? Something that would hurt them even more than they had hurt you? And how many times did you actually say it?

 

It's sympathy that buttons our lip in a situation like that. Because we DON'T really want to see the look on our partner's face when our worst barb hits it's mark.

 

(more later....)

 

p.s. Thanks for the compliment, Sleep. A person can learn ALOT in observing older folks. We don't value them enough in our society, I think.

[Ladyjane14]

I'm sorry I've been rambiling on and on, but in my defense....it's a looong story.

 

So, by learning all I could about emotional needs and by determining what mine and my husband's both were....I found that I could utilize symapthy and unblock my softer emotions.

 

When I finally realized that my husband had NOT been getting what he needed, I could feel sympathy for him. I couldn't fall back on my own resentment, because people who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones. He may not have been meeting my needs, but I damn sure hadn't met his either.

 

I can only control ME. Not anybody else, and I had FAILED to do what I had signed on to do. I signed on to comfort this man throughout his entire life. And I had not done it. It didn't matter that he hadn't either, because I don't have the responsibility to control his actions. I'm supposed to be controlling mine.

 

How can you react when you've failed to act initially? How can you b*tch, when you didn't do your share?

 

These are the kind of questions I had to ask myself. And you know what? No one else was willing to convict me on them. Everybody I talked to could not understand how I found any of this to be my fault. But to my own conscience, it was indefensible.

 

I had let this man, who I agreed to love and honor all his life, walk around in this world feeling completely UNLOVED....completely unlovable. Talk about a flood of sympathy. I literally cried for DAYS.

 

So, in sum, Fyrewyfe, if you want to try what worked for me....my advice to you is to LOVE your husband. Love him demonstratively with actions. Read those books. Learn to separate need from want. Take responsibility for YOUR part. Walk a mile in his shoes and sympathize with him. Limit your expectations to what you absolutely NEED, and make sure you're telling him what that is. He doesn't have a crystal ball.

 

If he's a decent guy, with his heart in the right place....he's going to respond to that.

 

ALWAYS remind yourself, however, that fulfilling another person's EN's is a gift of love, not a coin used for exchange. We give to our partner, because we love them, not because we expect to get something back. It's just a wonderful thing that we almost always do.

[tokyo]

Ladyjane14, that was very nice what you said.

[quankanne]

I'll throw in my two cents, if you don't mind:

 

I think every couple who has been in a long-term relationship, especially a married one, starts wondering why they're there. Not that their spouse is being so awfully horrible to them, but because they feel certain needs are not being met. It's a very very natural feeling. At some point though, you move from "I need/I want" and "you need/you want" and start thinking about it from the view of "we/us." much like LJ puts it: How can you react when you've failed to act initially? How can you b*tch, when you didn't do your share?

 

DH and I had been married about 5-6 years when I started realizing just how unhappy I was because we were so diffferent, and I began questioning my decision to marry him. To be honest, there were a lot of things we didn't have in common even though I always felt that he intrinsically was/is a good man. Some of his actions made me believe otherwise, though. Call it fate, call it God working, call it whatever you will, but at some point he offered to go on a Marriage Encounter retreat, which up until then, he balked at because he didn't "feel" our marriage needed help.

 

I think during that weekend of the retreat, he finally came to understand the basis for my strong viewpoint on marriage (hee hee, a bit ironic, considering I was unhappy with ours!) and I came to realize that he had as much vested in it as I did, but because he'd been through two failed marriages before ours, he didn't have a whole lot of faith. Long story shortened, we learned some good tools for communicating and we both came away with the understanding that even when we're upset or angry or just plain gripey with each other, that doesn't dent the foundation of love. And that's made all the difference ...

 

I guess the question I put to you is that beneath or beyond the hurt and pain you feel about things in your marriage, do you believe you have a wellspring of love for this person, something that will be your foundation no matter how crappy you may feel about his behavior? And do you feel it's worth the sacrifice and compromise that's sometimes needed to get to a whole/healthy spot?

 

Don't give up, because your guy just may surprise you. If you ask my husband about Marriage Encounter, he'll tell you it's the best investment we've ever made for our marriage, and this was the guy who was initially so deadset about addressing the status of our marriage because he was so scared of failing again.

 

As you pursue counselling or other ways to improve your marriage, don't forget to take some time for you. If you've got a favorite past time or hobby, indulge in it to a reasonable degree. Because the joy it brings you will give you the energy you need to address other areas of your life.

 

Best of luck to ya, fyr ...

[FolderWife]

That sounds like it might work Now...how do I pin down what his needs are?

[quankanne]

look at his other relationships, especially with family. Is he close to or emotionally distant from his family? that's often a big key in a person's behavior, because self-esteem is often tied into those formative relationships. How does he handle being around those people? Does he try hard for their approval? Does he feel secure with them? Does he just blow them off, saying he doesn't need them? Often, you can get a good idea of what someone needs by watching how they interact with their family.

 

If you're not getting any cues from that, maybe you can discuss the issue point-blank yet sincerely, so that he knows that you want to make this work, but you need his help understanding what he needs. That can be tricky because if a person is defensive, they don't see the underlying offer to make things work, but feel that you're trying to belittle them ...

[FolderWife]

How does he handle being around those people?

 

He doesn't talk to his mom or his dad, or his only brother. I don't know why...he won't tell me. He did, however, talk to his mom's brother and his wife. However, he recently got upset with his uncle, and now refuses to talk to him.

 

Does he try hard for their approval?

 

When he was talking to his aunt and uncle, yes, he tried VERY hard fro their approval! He would never disagree with them, and he'd treat me differently when he was around them (he'd treat me like his uncle treats his wife).

 

Does he feel secure with them?

 

He seems to...He seems like he's comfortable with his aunt and uncle's love...but he's not speaking to them right now, and it's a really silly reason.

 

Does he just blow them off, saying he doesn't need them?

 

Yes. He doesn't need his family, he doesn't need anybody...or so he says.

 

Often, you can get a good idea of what someone needs by watching how they interact with their family.

 

I don't understand...what do I get from that? That he's totally independant?

[quankanne]

He seems to...He seems like he's comfortable with his aunt and uncle's love...but he's not speaking to them right now, and it's a really silly reason. ... he doesn't need anybody...or so he says ... I don't understand...what do I get from that? That he's totally independant?

 

sounds like approval and good feelings are tied into each other, so that when he encounters disapproval (from someone or gives it to someone), he cuts off. Kind of like when a little kid makes himself feel rotten or distances himself when he's upset or thinks something's wrong. it's a defense mechanism; he tells all who listen that he doesn't need anyone, he's find all by himself. But, it's just words -- he just doesn't want to be hurt and that's his way of avoiding the hurt. Which could possibly be why he doesn't talk with parents or brother.

 

hmmmm .... maybe there's something to applying child psychology to men, who tend to bottle up what they're feeling or thinking, much like a kid who doesn't know have the ability to express himself the way he wants!

[fyrwyfe]

Thank you so much for your advice LadyJane and Quankanne. LJ - your story is just amazing. As unhappy as you were you took the first steps & ultimately saved your marriage. I truly hope that will be me. I would like to hear your thoughts about when people claim that they've 'fallen out of love', as you had mentioned in your earlier post. I have to say that that's what it feels like for me; there's no spark, no interest and overall I feel pretty unhappy most of the time... maybe that's not falling out of love? ...However, I can see how sympathy is still within reach even when I feel I have nothing left to give.

 

Today I bought Chapman's book - plan an reading it every spare moment. I'm curious.... at what point will I approach determining his emotional needs? I'm sure this will involve some reading on his part? A questionairre perhaps?

 

Quankanne - you said watching how he is with his family should be useful... He is close to his mom & dad, but not to the point where he calls them all that often. He has always said from the very beginning how important family is to him. He does try hard for their approval; he likes being the center of attention. Our MC says he is a needy person - he needs to be complimented, needs to be reassured that he is loved - sometimes he tries too hard to get that assurance from me when he's feeling particularly insecure. Sex does it for him, so there is a lot of pressure on me in that department, but perhaps there wouldn't be if he felt more loved outside the bedroom (epiphany?) Hmmm.

 

Love all your advice...

[whichwayisup]

Lady, you're really inspirational. You should write a book or a short story. You write really well!

 

I've been with my husband for 11 years or so. Things are usually pretty good - We do have a strong marriage. We are common law, but feel married, just minus the wedding and ring, piece of paper. Neither of us are going to end it - Though there are days I want to.

 

You made me laugh when you said :

 

I'll be honest....There were times when I felt like I hated my husband, and all I could think about was divorcing him every time he opened his mouth. Our marriage was so dead that I was almost obsessed with thoughts of divorce, and what it might be like to just NOT have to deal with him everyday

 

Because there are times I look at him, full of disgust and full on rage - Thinking to myself, MY GOD, this is the REST OF MY LIFE...I love him, but right now I really dislike him and he just bugs the s*** out of me. I mean, his breathing, the way sometimes his nose sings when he breathes, his habits - Which annoy the heck out of me too, can't forget those...It comes and goes...Its' normal and I know that now...Last year I wasn't so sure. I really thought I was going to lose it but lucky me came to my senses. With the help of afew friends, and a good friend who nicely 'explained' exactly how men are and why. It was like I had my own little notebook about what really goes on inside a man's head. Funny thing is, I understand my husband more now, than I ever have.

 

I still have days he bugs me and I'm sure I bug him too, not always one sided..I'm not the best peach at times to be with, but the basics is all about love, and respect. WE have never crossed that line when arguing. There is always respect. NOT once has he ever called me a B*tch and I have not called him an A-hole either. We just don't think that is cool at all. (I may think it, but I won't say it to him! LOL!)

 

Something I love is I can be me. Just me and he loves ALL of me. Good mood, bad mood, doesn't matter - HE does loves me as I am. I think I need to be more tolerant of him, but that is just a difference with men/women. We seem to not be able to put up with the little irritating things as they seem to just not notice or let it go, no big deal.

 

Compromise is another big one. Giving and taking...Knowing when to let him win in an arguement, and when to show him he really is wrong. I know for me, it is a daily lesson, mostly good, some bad, but it is worth it.

 

I never ever want to learn to be comfortable around anybody else. I may have my yuk days with him, but he is mine. I love that expression now.

 

Thanks for the read Lady. I am going to get my husband to read what you wrote too. You make alot of sense and are helping alot of others out here.

 

WWIU.

[fyrwyfe]

Thinking to myself, MY GOD, this is the REST OF MY LIFE...I love him, but right now I really dislike him and he just bugs the s*** out of me. I mean, his breathing, the way sometimes his nose sings when he breathes, his habits - Which annoy the heck out of me too, can't forget those...

 

Lol!

 

I'm not the best peach at times to be with, but the basics is all about love, and respect. WE have never crossed that line when arguing. There is always respect. NOT once has he ever called me a B*tch and I have not called him an A-hole either. We just don't think that is cool at all.

 

That line has been crossed here. He is often very disrespectful while argueing, insulting me in front of the kids, some name calling. I admit I have called him a name or two myself, but often only after I am pushed that far (not an excuse, I know). I don't like it getting to that. He has issues not knowing when to stop.

 

WWIU, I'm glad that you too are in a better place in your marriage - I want that!

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by fyrwyfe

I would like to hear your thoughts about when people claim that they've 'fallen out of love', as you had mentioned in your earlier post. I have to say that that's what it feels like for me; there's no spark, no interest and overall I feel pretty unhappy most of the time... maybe that's not falling out of love?

 

"I love you....but I'm not in love with you".

 

Lots and lots of folks use that one. Cheaters use it in nearly EVERY affair. Mostly because they want to give themselves permission to explore a more exciting, albeit usually temporary, relationship.

 

Sometimes singles use that one. They meet someone they really like, then they think maybe it's love, then they get to know the person a little better, and then they realize it's not love at all, just infatuation and lust.

 

More often than not though, they've given the other person the wrong impression by that time, and feel the need to break it gently. Imagine how much harder it might be to say, "I thought I loved you, but then I got to know you better....and I really don't like you that much."

 

But I think that for mature relationships, when there hasn't been a significant change in one partner's personality, say by mental illness or brain damage...it's more likely that the love is still there somewhere. Usually under years and years of buried resentments.

 

Everybody changes over time of course. We grow and mature. Our taste in clothing, music, books, politics....whatever, can change alot. But unless there are serious mental health issues in play, I think our basic personalities, our conscious self probably remains in tact for most people.

 

If you believe in certain values at age 12 like it's wrong to shoplift candy at the store, chances are even later on in life you're still going to feel the same way. At 92, as long as you aren't senile, you'll still think shoplifting candy is wrong.

 

What I'm thinking about you, Fyrwyfe, is that if you loved this man before....and he hasn't had any significant changes in his basic personality....then chances are pretty good that you still love him now. Somewhere under all that built-up resentment, it's probably still there. You have been hanging in there for a long time. If there wasn't something there, you'd have probably bailed out long ago.

 

Now, is it the googly-eyed romance of your courtship? Probably not. That's all smoke and mirrors from the physiological aspects of mating...as you've probably read in Chapman's book by now. It's not the real thing anyway. You can't "fall out" of real love.

 

But it can be destroyed. It can be starved and neglected for so long as to cease to be important. Buried so far under the heap of resentment and anger that it is no longer worth the effort to excavate it.

 

You may love someone in a way that is as real as love can be, but if they hurt you bad enough...you'll stop. That's self-preservation. Only fools get burnt repeatedly by the same fire.

 

The problem is that unless we're willing to make the effort, and dig for that love...we won't know if it's still there.

 

And no one else can do this for you. You have to do it yourself.

 

If it's a case where resentment is blocking your LOVE, then you have to put the resentment away. I'm sure if your husband had his way, he'd do it for you...but he can't. Only you can do that.

 

I think forgiveness is intrinsic in the process. Some people do that better than others. I'm a forgiving person by nature. It's hard for me to keep a grudge. I tend to forget what it was that I was mad about after awhile....along with where I put my keys or where I left the remote control.

 

A person who can really hold a good grudge, will find "forgiveness" to be a real chore.

 

But there is a trick to it. And the trick is....that you choose forgiveness on a daily basis. You can put every transgression that either of you ever made against one another in the past, if you choose EVERY DAY to leave it there.

 

Accusatory statements like "You always...blah, blah, blah" and "You never...yada, yada, yada" cease to have meaning. Because that was THEN, and this is NOW. There's no reason to hold onto resentment when a transgression has been forgiven. You can let it go.

 

But just like LOVE itself, forgiveness is a daily choice. ( And don't let anybody fool you....we choose who we love. There's no real-life Cupid out there shooting people in the a$$ with darts. )

 

We need to remind ourselves of these things constantly. You get up in the morning>>>You LOVE your partner>>>you think of someway to do that demonstratively.

 

Partner says something stupid that reminds you of your previous resentment>>>you remind yourself that you've already forgiven him for whatever stupid thing he did>>>and you make a CHOICE to continue to forgive.

 

Now at some point, your husband's going to have to get in the game. You can, and should, do YOUR part, but just like he can't do that for you...you can't do HIS part for him.

 

I've read his only post, and he seems like a guy who is interested in your feelings. He seems to care. But he'll have to put his money where his mouth is eventually.

 

How old is he, btw? I've noticed alot of men going through midlife changes starting around age 40. I can't prove it, but my theory is that some of it is physiological and has to do with changes in their bodies.

 

I don't think enough attention is paid to the "male midlife crisis". Look at how much we know about female menopause. But in men, we seem to know so little about how the body ages. So many men at around the age of 40 are going through similar symptomology; it just can't be a coincidence. There must be something physiological at work. A low dose of a seritonin uptake inhibitor can completely change their outlook. How can a condition respond to medication if it isn't physiological? But I digress.

 

Depending on his age, Fyrwyfe, it might be wise to have a medical doctor screen him for depression and other conditions. Make a list of EVERY change in his body, no matter how small, changes in sleeping habits, headaches, lethargy, changes in the bowel, sexual function, etc. Things that we don't think are important could help the doctor order the correct lab tests.

 

That might not be a bad idea for you to do as well, if you haven't done so lately. You did say that you're feeling "unhappy most of the time".

 

Also, if you aren't making headway with your MC, consider getting another therapist. It's important that you are BOTH comfortable with your MC. You won't get far if your husband is feeling picked on....and, if another therapist gives him the same opinion, he'll likely consider it to be more valid. Not everyone is going to respond to the same technique, so it's not necessarily that your MC is a bad one. S/he just might not be right for both of you.

 

Our MC says he is a needy person - he needs to be complimented, needs to be reassured that he is loved - sometimes he tries too hard to get that assurance from me when he's feeling particularly insecure. Sex does it for him, so there is a lot of pressure on me in that department, but perhaps there wouldn't be if he felt more loved outside the bedroom (epiphany?) Hmmm.

 

These aren't wants. He needs these things in order to be able to FEEL your love. If he can't feel your love....it's the same as not loving him at all.

 

It was so difficult for me to wrap my mind around how really different men and women think. It's like we're not even speaking the same language. It makes it really difficult to determine what our partner's true needs are, when we don't really identify with them.

 

As women, we just do not get the whole concept of sex being the BIG PICTURE. To us, if it was that important to him...maybe he'd put the appropriate amount of effort into getting some. You know, do the obvious things, like pay attention to us when we talk, act like he cared about what we thought, maybe take us out once in awhile, or do something unexpectedly romantic.

 

As women, we are left aghast that he can say something completely rude, be in a snotty mood, pick a big fight over something stupid...and then expect that we'd want to do THAT with him. WTF? Was he not just acting like a complete a$$ 2 minutes ago?

 

And yet, for him...these are all separate issues.

 

As women, the relationship itself is THE BIG PICTURE. For men, "the relationship" is SEXUAL by nature. It can't be separated out into emotional and sexual components. They are one and the same. I wish I could explain that better. Maybe some men will weigh in on it.

 

I will tell you this though, if you want to continue on it the marriage, and sex is at issue....it's a problem that will need to be solved.

 

There are some men who have less libido than their wives, and it's a problem in those marriages as well....but, I think overall women compensate better than men do in this area. Women tend to worry about their attractiveness when their husband neglects them sexually. Their self-esteem takes a beating. But they will believe in their husband's love for them once they've been verbally convinced of it.

 

Men who are neglected sexually will not ever believe it. No matter how many times you tell him you love him, if you're a healthy, heterosexual woman, and you don't express your love in a sexual way....he' not going to believe you.

 

So, it's imperative that any problems in your sexual relationship be addressed. If it's a matter of sexual function, these problems can usually be solved. (You can feel free to PM me about that if you like, Fyrwyfe.)

 

Anyway, when it comes to identifying EN's, Quankanne had a good suggestion in looking at his relationship with his extended family. People who tend to seek approval at an adult stage from their parents, tend to need more reassurance in general.

 

I wonder how much birth order plays a role in that? As a first born, I tend to be responsible and self-sufficiant. My husband on the other hand is a middle child, and tends to need lots of attention and affection.

 

I imagine that any abuse or neglect in a person's past would also play a key role in helping to determine EN's. Adult children of alcoholics, for example, tend to have a need for stability. Since most had a chaotic childhood, full of tension and unpleasant surprises, they are soothed by consistency.

 

Observation of what makes your spouse particularly upset, would tell you something about their EN's. A strong negative reaction can be a good indicator in telling you alot about what is really important to them.

 

You have to really put on your thinking cap in order to identify EN's. I can probably tell you more about my husband's than I can my own. Some are common to many people, others are individual and unique, like my husband's need for me to feed him.

 

I think after you've read the books, you'll be better able to customize the information.

 

Anyway, I'm sorry for the length. It would appear that I wrote a book after all WWIU, and a veritable tome at that!

 

 

 

p.s. to Monday....He's awfully high maintenance, and you're still pretty young. Are you sure you want to do this for the next 30 or so years? I can't remember if you have children together or not, but if not....maybe you should think about it.

 

The fact that he closes people out when he's upset with them doesn't bode well. If it's habitual, it would seem to be a matter of time until he does you that same way, unless he's honestly willing to take steps to change the behavior.

[Mr Spock]

Is the key to all long term marriage then settling for less than you need?

[tokyo]

Originally posted by Mr Spock

Is the key to all long term marriage then settling for less than you need?

 

In a perfect world we would have perfect relationships, but you and I are the living proof that this world is not perfect. That means, you have to work to keep a relationship alive.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by Mr Spock

Is the key to all long term marriage then settling for less than you need?

 

I wouldn't say that. The key to it, at least in my opinion, is to see to your own needs and the needs of your spouse "as if they were your own". The marriage is successful when BOTH partners are doing it.

 

Problem is...when the marriage is already in trouble, somebody's got to make the first move. If you wait for your partner to make it, you might end up waiting a loooonng time.

[fyrwyfe]

Ok, so I do understand what you mean about the "I'm not in love with you statements" now that I have read some of the book. It's very insightful.

 

You may love someone in a way that is as real as love can be, but if they hurt you bad enough...you'll stop. That's self-preservation. Only fools get burnt repeatedly by the same fire.

 

Here's where some of my problem is. He continues to do things that completely ruin my trust for him, things that have been discussed in counseling on several occasions. MC says he is a narcissist and that he needs some individual counseling. This is a little scary to me because I do feel like I could read this book and do my part to try to make things better, but in doing so I could be setting myself up to be played the fool again. The "shame on me" scenario. I guess I won't know what will happen unless I try though, so that's what I plan to do.

 

 

A person who can really hold a good grudge, will find "forgiveness" to be a real chore.

 

This is me. Those old issues keep resurfacing though because he continues to bring them to the table...

 

 

 

I've read his only post, and he seems like a guy who is interested in your feelings. He seems to care. But he'll have to put his money where his mouth is eventually.

 

Yes! This is what I tell him. Words don't mean much when there is no action to back it up. He is SO up & down - he will do something incredibly hurtful and then not understand why things can't just be right back to normal. He apologizes (again) and promises to do what it takes, and then does nothing differently. I can't control what HE does, I know, but it makes me feel so hopeless. Sometimes (often really) he will even say "I can't change. I've always been this way. Individual counseling isn't going to help anything."

 

 

How old is he, btw? I've noticed alot of men going through midlife changes starting around age 40.

 

He is almost 33. Don't know about midlife changes, but he has some depression due to ongoing neck pain after surgery. This has been going on for a couple of years now.

 

 

No matter how many times you tell him you love him, if you're a healthy, heterosexual woman, and you don't express your love in a sexual way....he' not going to believe you.

 

This is a struggle. I don't feel close to him, I feel like he pays me a lot of sexual attention rather than loving attention, seems SO much more interested in his interests than in me or the kids - there are MANY reasons why I often don't want sex (not to say I don't still give it to him, because I usually do). Sex makes him feel closer to me, but when I'm not feeling close to him and give it to him anyway, I'm not really getting what I want, and therefore I end up resenting him. I'm hoping Chapman's book will help with this once I learn what my emotional needs are & what his are. I just really hope he steps up to the plate too because I can't do it all on my own - I want him to figure me out too.

[whichwayisup]

He does try hard for their approval; he likes being the center of attention. Our MC says he is a needy person - he needs to be complimented, needs to be reassured that he is loved - sometimes he tries too hard to get that assurance from me when he's feeling particularly insecure. Sex does it for him, so there is a lot of pressure on me in that department, but perhaps there wouldn't be if he felt more loved outside the bedroom

 

This is a struggle. I don't feel close to him, I feel like he pays me a lot of sexual attention rather than loving attention, seems SO much more interested in his interests than in me or the kids - there are MANY reasons why I often don't want sex (not to say I don't still give it to him, because I usually do). Sex makes him feel closer to me, but when I'm not feeling close to him and give it to him anyway, I'm not really getting what I want, and therefore I end up resenting him. I'm hoping Chapman's book will help with this once I learn what my emotional needs are & what his are. I just really hope he steps up to the plate too because I can't do it all on my own - I want him to figure me out too.

 

fyrwyfe, I feel for what you are going through. Seems he does have many Narcississtic traits...That's not good. There are afew threads on here talking about Narcississtic relationships. They definately aren't easy for anybody who is involved with an N.

 

He somehow needs to put you and the kids first for a change. Is he willing to go to therapy with you? And on his own? He may not want to change because right now things are safe and familiar to him. Better to have that than learn a new and improved way of living and/or handling things. Hopefully he will read that book as well. It could help alot.

 

I hope he comes around and you both can work together to make things better. I think that you are going to have to take the lead on it and really PUSH him hard.

 

Keep venting, the more you get out the more we can help.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by fyrwyfe

He is almost 33. Don't know about midlife changes, but he has some depression due to ongoing neck pain after surgery. This has been going on for a couple of years now.

 

Is he receiving treatment for the depression? And if so, is the treatment effective in controlling his symptoms? Is he still symptomatic on the neck injury?

 

Even a MILD untreated, or unsuccessfully treated, depression will wreak havoc on a person's primary relationship.

 

The physical stress on the body in a situation in which there are unresolved pain issues can often result in depression, and in a case where the symptoms are mild it's often difficult to diagnose. It's also difficult for the patient to understand that his outlook in general has been altered, so he doesn't want to seek treatment.

 

If he's willing, schedule him for a check-up with his medical doctor.

 

I don't feel close to him, I feel like he pays me a lot of sexual attention rather than loving attention, seems SO much more interested in his interests than in me or the kids - there are MANY reasons why I often don't want sex (not to say I don't still give it to him, because I usually do). Sex makes him feel closer to me, but when I'm not feeling close to him and give it to him anyway, I'm not really getting what I want, and therefore I end up resenting him. I'm hoping Chapman's book will help with this once I learn what my emotional needs are & what his are. I just really hope he steps up to the plate too because I can't do it all on my own - I want him to figure me out too.

 

One of the premises in Chapman's book, which really did make sense to me, btw.....is that often our partner will speak to us in his love language rather than ours. Sort of like the Golden Rule, "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You". If his language is Physical Touch and that's what he's offering to you, then he's trying to show his love, albeit in a manner which is currently ignorant of what your love language is.

 

I understand the resentment factor on your part in having sexual relations with him. Right now, you don't feel like you love him. Sex isn't going to feel natural for you under those conditions. And I'm not suggesting that you continue to put yourself in a position in which you are actively BUILDING more resentment.

 

As I told you before, mercy sex isn't going to make him feel loved anyway. He won't turn it down, but it won't make him feel special either. And it can actually make things worse in that his efforts to please you will constantly FAIL. He'll be left feeling inadaquate, and eventually he might start having performance issues.

 

I honestly believe that you should seek out a new MC. Your efforts with your current MC are going largely unrewarded. If you keep doing the same old thing, you're going to keep getting the same old results. Think about shaking things up.

 

You need serious guidance through the sexual aversion issues, and by somebody who knows what they're doing. Because unless that problem is solved....your marriage is doomed.

 

It could well be true that your husband has narcissistic tendancies, but if he's failing to act on your current MC's advice, he may need to hear that from someone else....possibly a male if your current MC is female. (Not terribly PC, but sometimes true nonetheless.)

 

If it were me, I wouldn't be bugging him too much about IC, at this time. I'd concentrate on a new MC, with IC visits included for each of you, periodically. That will give you each an opportunity to let your hair down occasionally, and say what's on your mind....out of earshot of the other person.

 

If he was going to respond to your current MC in a positive way, he'd have probably done that by now. I'd be wary of a therapist that I felt was on my side most of the time anyway. I know for a fact that I'm not a perfect person, so if I'm paying for advice....I want some that pertains to me, and what I can do. Not just about him and what he should be doing.

 

I'll be interested in hearing what you think about the book when you're done reading it, and what your assessments of your love languages are. I hope you'll post us an update.

[moimeme]

If MC knows what s/he's talking about and your husband is actually a narcissist, then you need to read up on that disorder. Here's links to symptoms and treatment:

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=560&cn=8

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=623&cn=8

 

What is critical to understand in dealing with partners is that all the brilliant MC advice in the world, Chapman and Harley included, won't help that much if a disorder is standing in the way. The disorder will prevent the 'problem' partner from reacting and responding the way the methodologies are designed to elicit.

 

This doesn't mean that the advice of Harley and Chapman, or even Dr. Phil, isn't useful but don't expect it to solve all the problems. You'll need extra information and techniques to deal with someone with a diagnosed disorder.

[fyrwyfe]

LadyJane:

 

Is he receiving treatment for the depression? And if so, is the treatment effective in controlling his symptoms? Is he still symptomatic on the neck injury?

 

He is taking Wellbutrin and it seems to help. He still has neck pain, he complains about it just about daily. Nothing really helps except Vicodin, which he doesn't like to take & cannot take at work, and marijuana, which I'm not all that fond of. Before the surgery he had more severe pain & numbness (ruptured discs); now his discs are fused but he still feels pain. His primary physician knows all about his situation, and he also sees several specialists, including a neurologist...

 

 

It could well be true that your husband has narcissistic tendancies, but if he's failing to act on your current MC's advice, he may need to hear that from someone else....possibly a male if your current MC is female. (Not terribly PC, but sometimes true nonetheless.)

 

What does the "PC" stand for?

I love our MC, and my husband has said on plenty of occasions that he really likes him too. There have been times where we are doing good yet he still wants to keep the sessions going. Maybe he does need to hear advice from someone else, but I think the problem was that he anticipated the "bashing" because he had just screwed up his end of the deal (again). Maybe sometimes he feels like our MC is frequently on my side, but isn't that what a narcissist would think anyway? Does that really matter so much if he's on 'my side' more often, because my husband and I are not "equally" contributing to the demise of our marriage... you know? BTW, our MC is a male; we've been seeing him off & on for the past 3 years.

 

moimeme: Thank you for the links

[invincible summer]

He definitely is NOT a narcissist!!! He sounds like a classic NG (nice guy syndrome) check out Robert Glover No More Mr. Nice Guy . I should know mine has been identified as a narcissist by a successful pyschiatrist.

[moimeme]

MC says he is a narcissist

 

He definitely is NOT a narcissist!!!

 

And your credentials are? That your partner has been diagnosed does not necessarily mean the two men will be identical. Disorders present differently in differnt people.