Lost my faith, might find it again...but might not

[Love Hurts]

Fair enough -- my main struggle may simply be that my heart doesn't believe. But do not take this to mean that my heart never believed.

 

Both head and heart need to be engaged to produce a vibrant faith. Head without heart = legalism. Heart without head = emotionalism.

Sunshine girl realization is battle won!!! You’re on your way; no doubt …and I Praise Jesus!!! For you in advance…

 

God Bless you immensely in on your walk of the Lord.

[amerikajin]

In terms of what to take from the bible I would have to weigh in somewhere between Love Hurts and bluetuedsday. I don't think it is infallible and it certainly isn't literal, but I don't think you can compare it to your car manual or even to War and Peace.

 

I would call it a bit more than inspired. It is a holy book in a way that most books are not. And yes, it contains contradictions, sometimes on purpose. Are there errors in it due to human fallibility? Probably.

 

But most importantly, and I'm reiterating now, there is plenty of room for doubt and argument *within* the biblical tradition, despite what some individual teachers/preachers may have told you. There is no need to demote the bible in order to take issue with it.

 

The Bible is a "holy" book because people who read it and believe it ordain it as such. I understand that people find a lot of fundamental human truths and wisdom in the Bible, and despite the fact that I'm a cynical and smarmy smart-ass, I certainly don't seek to diminish the prestige it has in the eyes of those who hold it in such high esteem.

 

But you can find fundamental human truths in a great number of sources, literary or otherwise. I think there is wisdom and fundamental human truth in all of us collectively. I think God and the devil is in all of humanity. It is an epic struggle, which continues from generation to generation. My faith is in knowing our nature. I believe there is more pain in store for the human race, but I believe that good will ultimately prevail - because only good can. Look at our history and you see this. We tear each other to pieces, and we could have finished each other off in a fit of rage - and yet we haven't. I believe that even if we were, by chance, to start an all out nuclear war with each other, good would prevail. That is to say, the last remaining people on this earth, would represent the best of what humanity is. My faith is in knowing that, no matter what happens, the human race always tries to correct itself. Sometimes it falls backwards right on its ass and has to get back up and try it again - and sometimes we fall hard. But we do eventually dust ourselves off and try to get it right. That is my faith.

 

Believe what you want...just let me do the same.

[Storyrider]

That is to say, the last remaining people on this earth, would represent the best of what humanity is.

 

More likely, in the US at least, they would represent those with priority access to the bomb shelter under the mountain in Colorado Springs.

 

My faith is in knowing that, no matter what happens, the human race always tries to correct itself. Sometimes it falls backwards right on its ass and has to get back up and try it again - and sometimes we fall hard. But we do eventually dust ourselves off and try to get it right. That is my faith.

Believe what you want...just let me do the same.

 

I have no desire to argue with you. But my point was to reassure the OP that she doesn't have to sacrifice the entire Bible to her doubts, especially when her faith was originally Biblically based. There are parts of the Judeo-Christian tradition that are amenable, and even welcoming to doubt and argument, and she should know that before she feels the need to toss out her entire tradition and start from scratch.

[Love Hurts]

The Bible is a "holy" book because people who read it and believe it ordain it as such. I understand that people find a lot of fundamental human truths and wisdom in the Bible, and despite the fact that I'm a cynical and smarmy smart-ass, I certainly don't seek to diminish the prestige it has in the eyes of those who hold it in such high esteem.

 

But you can find fundamental human truths in a great number of sources, literary or otherwise. I think there is wisdom and fundamental human truth in all of us collectively. I think God and the devil is in all of humanity. It is an epic struggle, which continues from generation to generation. My faith is in knowing our nature. I believe there is more pain in store for the human race, but I believe that good will ultimately prevail - because only good can. Look at our history and you see this. We tear each other to pieces, and we could have finished each other off in a fit of rage - and yet we haven't. I believe that even if we were, by chance, to start an all out nuclear war with each other, good would prevail. That is to say, the last remaining people on this earth, would represent the best of what humanity is. My faith is in knowing that, no matter what happens, the human race always tries to correct itself. Sometimes it falls backwards right on its ass and has to get back up and try it again - and sometimes we fall hard. But we do eventually dust ourselves off and try to get it right. That is my faith.

 

Believe what you want...just let me do the same.

 

 

What you are saying we are all sinner saved by grace.

We strive to share the word of Christ and to be Christ like.

Yet still we all will fail Him…. He is God… we are flesh…

We are made of corruption and that is sin itself; without Satan pulling strings or polluting the waters.

 

So we have our selves to get over…. Satan to get over all to be more like Christ.

Long way to go.

HMMM NO DOUBT..?

 

 

The real deal is… expect to fall… expect to realize you are a sinner saved by grace…

 

If any of seek Christ…. Look higher do not … repeat do not look at ones fellow man…Man will always let you down..

 

Christ alone truly deeply wholly loves you Christ died for you … who else has died for you?

 

Me… myself; I fall short of the Glory of God…. Every day that... I live and breath,..

I hate my sins against Him…. I only wish I could be more... I strive and I fall again… All I can do is try… Amen

 

Its all any can do.

God Bless*

[amerikajin]

What you are saying we are all sinner saved by grace.

We strive to share the word of Christ and to be Christ like.

Yet still we all will fail Him…. He is God… we are flesh…

We are made of corruption and that is sin itself; without Satan pulling strings or polluting the waters.

 

So we have our selves to get over…. Satan to get over all to be more like Christ.

Long way to go.

HMMM NO DOUBT..?

 

 

The real deal is… expect to fall… expect to realize you are a sinner saved by grace…

 

If any of seek Christ…. Look higher do not … repeat do not look at ones fellow man…Man will always let you down..

 

Christ alone truly deeply wholly loves you Christ died for you … who else has died for you?

 

Me… myself; I fall short of the Glory of God…. Every day that... I live and breath,..

I hate my sins against Him…. I only wish I could be more... I strive and I fall again… All I can do is try… Amen

 

Its all any can do.

God Bless*

 

I accept that we aren't perfect. Is it possible that God may only seem perfect to us, but in fact, may not actually be perfect as well? Can God have flaws? If God is perfect, why would God create something that is flawed? How would God let that happen, and more importantly, what would be the purpose of allowing that to happen? What is "perfection"?

[bluetuesday]

If God is perfect, why would God create something that is flawed? How would God let that happen, and more importantly, what would be the purpose of allowing that to happen?

 

these are excellent questions. when you look at the vast imperfection on earth, it throws up some very fundamantal questions about god and exposes some very fundamental flaws about most religious teachings.

 

either god wasn't up to the job of creating perfection (and is therefore imperfect) or god could have created perfection but wanted the earth to be imperfect knowing humans would suffer because of it (and is therefore a big old meanie).

 

i don't think you can have it both ways. either god isn't perfect or we are wrong in our (popular, christian) view of god. hmmm. i wonder which one it is?

[lonelybird]

all i can tell you is when you are ready, you will feel differently. if that time comes while you're on LS and you want to ask someone who's already been through it, i'll help you see it isn't scary to learn more about god. it's actually the most wonderful thing you can do.

Thanks for your advise, in advance, if Holy Spirit confirmed your advise, I would be happily accept.

Holy Spirit was sent by Jesus, Jesus never let his sheep lost though

[Storyrider]

these are excellent questions. when you look at the vast imperfection on earth, it throws up some very fundamantal questions about god and exposes some very fundamental flaws about most religious teachings.

 

either god wasn't up to the job of creating perfection (and is therefore imperfect) or god could have created perfection but wanted the earth to be imperfect knowing humans would suffer because of it (and is therefore a big old meanie).

 

i don't think you can have it both ways. either god isn't perfect or we are wrong in our (popular, christian) view of god. hmmm. i wonder which one it is?

 

Doesn't this go back to the free will you mentioned earlier? How can God keep us perfect if he gives us free will? Free will has to include the ability to make wrong choices, thus imperfection.

[lonelybird]

sunshinegirl

 

Oh! I did not mention about being burned out but I quote you here "....and I decided I was tired. T I R E D. Bone tired. Weary. Done"

 

Yep, that was me too. So, I know exactly how that feels. I can also relate to the feeling of being at peace to just get away from it all. That is pretty much where I am now. Still feels good. But my inner values are starting to emerge out of the fog. It will happen to you also. I don`t think that trancendental nature really ever leaves a person.

Hi Road Rage and sunshinegirl

It's interesting yesterday night a pastor just touched this point. I hope I can repeat what she said. It is TBN channel by the way. oh, this pastor has a book God grace, her website is http://www.joycemeyer.org/default.htm

 

Maybe you just try to obey God and all His commandments ALL by yourself. That's why you felt tired. By doing so, you put yourself under curse of laws. But Jesus died to free us from all bondages including laws. That doesn't mean abandon laws, that means by Jesus through Jesus, we invite Him into our heart, and rely ON Him to change us, not rely ON ourselves to change us. When you ask Him to change you or help you, He will do so, and we simply obey what He tell us to do. I don't know others, but it is light, joy. For example, when I want to change my attitude toward authority because Bible want us to obey authority, and I had difficult time to do it. then I pray ask God to help me, then God revealed to me that when I don't want to obey authority, it is my PRIDE playing. when I saw this, then I became better and better to obey authority.

 

If you rely ON yourself to obey Bible, it will bring frustration. because we are flesh, but if you rely ON God, you would be able to see what God see, you can see things through God's eyes. SO, pray a lot rather than sweat a lot:)

[amerikajin]

Doesn't this go back to the free will you mentioned earlier? How can God keep us perfect if he gives us free will? Free will has to include the ability to make wrong choices, thus imperfection.

 

I think the point is, there has to be a point to all of this. Why would God create life knowing that it isn't perfect? What is the meaning of life - I know some will say it is 'to serve God' but that just seems illogical and vague.

 

Why did God create life that eventually developed into creatures with the capacity to use free will if God knew that we would often not live up to our potential? Why would God create the human race, armed with free will, knowing the consequences of misusing that free will, knowing the pain and misery that we often inflict upon ourselves? Why would a kind and merciful God create this race knowing the pain and misery we inflict upon each other? Why would God only appear twice in history and leave 'His word' in the hands of a handful of mortals in Israel, knowing that by that time humanity had spread around the earth far and wide? Wouldn't it have been far easier and more helpful to God's cause to make a more obvious appearance to everyone simultaneously so that everyone would understand what/who God is? To think that the Israelites/Jews were God's children but that he ignored everyone else is, to me, silly.

[Love Hurts]

I accept that we aren't perfect. Is it possible that God may only seem perfect to us, but in fact, may not actually be perfect as well? Can God have flaws? If God is perfect, why would God create something that is flawed? How would God let that happen, and more importantly, what would be the purpose of allowing that to happen? What is "perfection"?

 

 

God did not create other Gods… but instead man; to honor and worship Him…

However… He did not make puppets that all bow and worship Him as in feeding His Vanity… NO NOT AT ALL.

 

Instead He gave us a choice… some do and some do not…. Freewill is our gift of choice…

 

Likewise freewill is Gods measuring device as to who has a heart for Him and who does not.

 

God is perfection…. And as we are eternal… we in Christ will never ever be God…We will eternally strive to be more Christ like yet not be God….

 

Imagine God is beautiful, loving and just… He is fair and righteous… He said in …Philippians 4:8

 

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

[Storyrider]

Wouldn't it have been far easier and more helpful to God's cause to make a more obvious appearance to everyone simultaneously so that everyone would understand what/who God is? To think that the Israelites/Jews were God's children but that he ignored everyone else is, to me, silly.

 

This is known as 'the scandal of particularity' and is a question that has been debated by many theologians.

 

But I don't see it as "him ignoring everyone else" since Christianity has eventually spread to nearly every corner of the earth. Christians believe that when God told Abraham his children would be as numerous as the stars, this is what he was referring to. (It can't be a reference to modern Jews obviously, as we are a small group and dwindling.)

 

The questions you ask are good ones, and not easily answered. I think any healthy religion would encourage such probing questions, to the end of enriching one's spiritual outlook. I don't believe asking questions should harm one's faith, and any religion or denomination that can't stand up to vigorous questions isn't worth much.

[amerikajin]

This is known as 'the scandal of particularity' and is a question that has been debated by many theologians.

 

But I don't see it as "him ignoring everyone else" since Christianity has eventually spread to nearly every corner of the earth. Christians believe that when God told Abraham his children would be as numerous as the stars, this is what he was referring to. (It can't be a reference to modern Jews obviously, as we are a small group and dwindling.)

 

The questions you ask are good ones, and not easily answered. I think any healthy religion would encourage such probing questions, to the end of enriching one's spiritual outlook. I don't believe asking questions should harm one's faith, and any religion or denomination that can't stand up to vigorous questions isn't worth much.

 

But what about Islam - didn't that spread to nearly every corner of the earth? Muslims believe Muhammad to be a prophet, do they not? What about Buddhism, which teaches something entirely different? My point is, why do we assume that Christianity is the word of God for people all over the world? There were other civilizations in existence at the time of Moses and at the time of Christ - and yet if you take the Judeo Christian view, God's word visited Israel first and spread from there.

 

Let's state the obvious: this is how we see it because we are Westerners in the Indo-European tradition. We share similar origins in terms of philosophy and, of course, religion. The idea that God only speak to the people of the ancient Near East is, well, a bit arrogant and ethnocentric. We in the West like to view ourselves at the center of the world, which is why we like to view Western religion is God's word. But that's an obvious fallacy to any objective person.

[Love Hurts]

But what about Islam - didn't that spread to nearly every corner of the earth? Muslims believe Muhammad to be a prophet, do they not? What about Buddhism, which teaches something entirely different? My point is, why do we assume that Christianity is the word of God for people all over the world? There were other civilizations in existence at the time of Moses and at the time of Christ - and yet if you take the Judeo Christian view, God's word visited Israel first and spread from there.

 

Let's state the obvious: this is how we see it because we are Westerners in the Indo-European tradition. We share similar origins in terms of philosophy and, of course, religion. The idea that God only speak to the people of the ancient Near East is, well, a bit arrogant and ethnocentric. We in the West like to view ourselves at the center of the world, which is why we like to view Western religion is God's word. But that's an obvious fallacy to any objective person.

 

 

Yo... need a refresher on the God said; in advance over 2000 years ago… thou shall have no other gods before me?

 

Exodus 20:2-20:17

2 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

 

3you shall have no other gods before* me!!!!!!

 

He is the one and only big G.

[amerikajin]

Yo... need a refresher on the God said; in advance over 2000 years ago… thou shall have no other gods before me?

 

Exodus 20:2-20:17

2 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

 

3you shall have no other gods before* me!!!!!!

 

He is the one and only big G.

 

Prove to me God actually said that.

 

Oh, wait -- faith!!! How could I forget.

 

No offense, but this is what drives me mad about religion. It's a catch 22 and a circular discussion, because whenever you ask a devout Christian a real answer...they have no real answers.

 

A- God said there are no other Gods but me

 

b- Prove to me that God said this

 

A- It's in the Bible

 

b- No, I know that. That doesn't prove anything, that just proves it's written in a book. Lots of things are written in books. The world's greatest FICTION is written in books. Again, prove to me that God said this. Where's the evidence?

 

A- It's faith.

 

B- Okay, then you have no proof.

 

A- But the Bible is the word of God

 

b- :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[lonelybird]

God created us to love HIM back, because God love us so much. But God don't want someone lamely admit He is the God who created everything. That's why God don't want to make HIMSELF so obviously to scare people to believe. God knows people's heart

[amerikajin]

God created us to love HIM back, because God love us so much. But God don't want someone lamely admit He is the God who created everything. That's why God don't want to make HIMSELF so obviously to scare people to believe. God knows people's heart

 

My parents created me because they loved me. They didn't go run and hide in a closet for the rest of my life and leave me to wonder whether or not they existed. When you're a child, you naturally ask your parents "Hey, how did I get here?" And they tell you in a nice easy-to-understand way that you were born and how that process happens. When my parents wanted me to do something, they didn't leave any question in my mind about it; they had no problem using the threat of force to compel me to behave properly. God surely understands how humans work, right? He knows that humans need guidance, and sometimes guidance of the visible and firm variety. It just doesn't make sense that God would try to remain enigmatic while at the same time have humans write books on his behalf.

 

Don't you get it? These were people who wrote the Bible, not God himself. People tell all kinds of stories. Heck, some of these stories in the Old Testament are straight out of the Epic of Gilgamesh and other oral traditions of the ancient Near East.

[Storyrider]

My parents created me because they loved me. They didn't go run and hide in a closet for the rest of my life and leave me to wonder whether or not they existed. When you're a child, you naturally ask your parents "Hey, how did I get here?" And they tell you in a nice easy-to-understand way that you were born and how that process happens. When my parents wanted me to do something, they didn't leave any question in my mind about it; they had no problem using the threat of force to compel me to behave properly. God surely understands how humans work, right? He knows that humans need guidance, and sometimes guidance of the visible and firm variety. It just doesn't make sense that God would try to remain enigmatic while at the same time have humans write books on his behalf.

 

Don't you get it? These were people who wrote the Bible, not God himself. People tell all kinds of stories. Heck, some of these stories in the Old Testament are straight out of the Epic of Gilgamesh and other oral traditions of the ancient Near East.

 

Amerikajin, I don't want to argue with you about whether cultural relativism is the way to go. I'm just saying the OP should look within her own tradition first to answer her questions before she rejects it in favor of something else. The OP comes from a Christian background, and I would discourage her from throwing it out wholesale before she puts it to the test a little more. I think it will stand up to more questioning than she realizes. (I'm a Jew, so I'm not trying to proselytize her to stay Christian.)

[burning 4 revenge]

Amerikajin, I don't want to argue with you about whether cultural relativism is the way to go. I'm just saying the OP should look within her own tradition first to answer her questions before she rejects it in favor of something else. The OP comes from a Christian background, and I would discourage her from throwing it out wholesale before she puts it to the test a little more. I think it will stand up to more questioning than she realizes. (I'm a Jew, so I'm not trying to proselytize her to stay Christian.)

yeah, i agree with storyrider

 

i like to make fun of religion, but i don't think there's much to be gained by trying to put someone off their religion.

 

for what? so she can be miserable and atheist like me? i'd rather see her be a militant islamicist.

[lonelybird]

Don't you get it? These were people who wrote the Bible, not God himself. People tell all kinds of stories. Heck, some of these stories in the Old Testament are straight out of the Epic of Gilgamesh and other oral traditions of the ancient Near East.

Yes, I get it. Holy Spirit is in me, so I know. when a people doing God's work is under guidance of Holy Spirit, he couldn't go wrong, because Holy Spirit is supervising everything. when something go wrong, Holy Spirit will tell loudly and clearly.

[Island Girl]

Hey Archie… I was saved I know from my heart it’s a personal experience…

 

You can’t get that Archie from flushing the toilet… and THOSE WERE THE DAYS!!!!!!

 

You are just so bizarre.

 

The things you say don't make any sense and then you throw out random biblical quotes that I'm sure you think make a very clear point - but they don't.

 

I wonder about you.

 

I wonder if you are behind bars somewhere or in an asylum.

 

Or if you really walk around speaking the same way you do on LS.

 

Perhaps this is where you choose to "soapbox" and when in the real world you are the quiet one in the corner...

 

So which is it?

[Island Girl]

Prove to me God actually said that.

 

Oh, wait -- faith!!! How could I forget.

 

No offense, but this is what drives me mad about religion. It's a catch 22 and a circular discussion, because whenever you ask a devout Christian a real answer...they have no real answers.

 

A- God said there are no other Gods but me

 

b- Prove to me that God said this

 

A- It's in the Bible

 

b- No, I know that. That doesn't prove anything, that just proves it's written in a book. Lots of things are written in books. The world's greatest FICTION is written in books. Again, prove to me that God said this. Where's the evidence?

 

A- It's faith.

 

B- Okay, then you have no proof.

 

A- But the Bible is the word of God

 

b- :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

Exactly.

 

You can't use the bible to prove the bible is true.

 

Another thing that drives me crazy is "selective interpretation".

[lonelybird]

I wonder about you.

 

Me too. but I love her

[Island Girl]

Imagine God is beautiful, loving and just… He is fair and righteous… He said in …Philippians 4:8

 

Fair and righteous in one part of the bible but not so much in another.

 

God hates and is also jealous, vengeful, and possesses Wrath - one of the seven deadlies right?

[Love Hurts]

Prove to me God actually said that.

 

Oh, wait -- faith!!! How could I forget.

 

No offense, but this is what drives me mad about religion. It's a catch 22 and a circular discussion, because whenever you ask a devout Christian a real answer...they have no real answers.

 

A- God said there are no other Gods but me

 

b- Prove to me that God said this

 

A- It's in the Bible

 

b- No, I know that. That doesn't prove anything, that just proves it's written in a book. Lots of things are written in books. The world's greatest FICTION is written in books. Again, prove to me that God said this. Where's the evidence?

 

A- It's faith.

 

B- Okay, then you have no proof.

 

A- But the Bible is the word of God

 

b- :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

What other god died for you?

What god claimed you worthy of dieing for?