Lost my faith, might find it again...but might not

[Topper]

Moai,

You assume that Jews rejected Jesus, That is really not true. In the years after his crucifixion there was a a very active Chruch in Jerusalem. There was much debate in the early part of the Christian movement on the nature of Jesus. Was he born God or was he a man blessed by God with special powers, or was he something else? The fact is that Christians under Paul started leaving their Jewish roots. It is Paul who said that you no longer needed to follow Kosher Law in order to follow Jesus. The Chruch in Jerusalem disagreed with Paul. The Chruch under the guidance of James said you must be Jewish in order to follow Jesus. You could become Jewish by circumcision and following Jewish law. Archaeologist in Israel have recently unearthed what is thought to be the earliest Christian Chruch. Dating to the very early 1st Century. Much of what we call Christianity today is a repackaging of Pigeon Greek and Roman traditions.

[amerikajin]

Moai,

You assume that Jews rejected Jesus, That is really not true. In the years after his crucifixion there was a a very active Chruch in Jerusalem. There was much debate in the early part of the Christian movement on the nature of Jesus. Was he born God or was he a man blessed by God with special powers, or was he something else? The fact is that Christians under Paul started leaving their Jewish roots. It is Paul who said that you no longer needed to follow Kosher Law in order to follow Jesus. The Chruch in Jerusalem disagreed with Paul. The Chruch under the guidance of James said you must be Jewish in order to follow Jesus. You could become Jewish by circumcision and following Jewish law. Archaeologist in Israel have recently unearthed what is thought to be the earliest Christian Chruch. Dating to the very early 1st Century. Much of what we call Christianity today is a repackaging of Pigeon Greek and Roman traditions.

 

Good points.

[bluetuesday]

Good points.

 

i agree.

 

this is addressed to moai: you speak intelligently. i have thought that even when, perhaps especially when, we are disagreeing. what you say about god is mostly correct too - there is an illogical inescapability that jesus DID say that if you ask you will get something and yet people hardly ever get what they ask for.

 

now if you have experienced god and therefore know that god really exists, you must think that there can only be two reasons for this lack of answered prayer.

 

one is that something has gone wrong at god's end and he has broken his side of the bargain and gone back on his word. most deists would tell you this is unlikely.

 

the other is that something has gone wrong at our end and either we have misinterpreted the text or failed to do/be/think something that is necessary in order to get our prayer answered.

 

speaking as a person who has sought, and found, i can tell you the following... the reason most prayer is not answered is because god will NEVER answer a prayer that will help to confirm a view of god that is out of line with reality.

 

imagine a child thinking that its father is immortal. this isn't a big problem when the child is small, lots of kids have unrealistic views of their parents. but when that child grows and becomes a teenager and then an adult, its view of the parent needs to change. what would you think of a parent who never put the child right on this issue? what would you think if the parent set up stunts where it appeared like he was walking unscathed from terrible car crashes or after jumping out of a plane without a parachute?

 

i'm betting you'd think the father wasn't helping the child grow into an adult. i'm betting you'd think it was dangerous for the father to teach the child something that is very far from reality.

 

it is the same with god. the reason god doesn't answer prayers that confirm - in the mind of the person praying - an unrealistic view of god, is that god wants his children to realise that their view of him is incorrect. he wants his children to grow up and know him as he REALLY is. so far, for the vast majority of christians, this hasn't happened. instead they make excuses for god, saying he IS answering prayer but the answer is 'not yet'.

 

as moai very ably pointed out, this is the reaction of a child who doesn't want to know the truth. and it's not at all scriptural.

[Moai]

Moai,

You assume that Jews rejected Jesus, That is really not true. In the years after his crucifixion there was a a very active Chruch in Jerusalem. There was much debate in the early part of the Christian movement on the nature of Jesus. Was he born God or was he a man blessed by God with special powers, or was he something else? The fact is that Christians under Paul started leaving their Jewish roots. It is Paul who said that you no longer needed to follow Kosher Law in order to follow Jesus. The Chruch in Jerusalem disagreed with Paul. The Chruch under the guidance of James said you must be Jewish in order to follow Jesus. You could become Jewish by circumcision and following Jewish law. Archaeologist in Israel have recently unearthed what is thought to be the earliest Christian Chruch. Dating to the very early 1st Century. Much of what we call Christianity today is a repackaging of Pigeon Greek and Roman traditions.

 

That is playing a little fast and loose with some definitions. There were certainly followers of Jesus who were Jewish, both before and after the crucifixion, but at that time they still considered themselves "Jews" and obeyed the mistzvot. And yes, it was Paul who proclaimed that there was a "New Covenant," which does not agree with Old Testament prophecy.

 

What we call Christianity now is an amalgam of Mithraism and various pagan religions around the Mediterranean.

 

The early 1st century would be about 100 years after the crucifixion, or so. And even still, if a minority of Jews chose to follow him the vast majority did not--and do not to this day.

 

Moreover, God is very specific about his nature is the Old Testament, which states that God is one. The very idea of the Trinity does not concur with the Torah. If Jesus was born of a virgin, the it is impossible for him to be descended from the tribe of Judah, which the Messiah must be.

 

There is more and more. Just the fact that the world did (and does) not worship God and follow the Torah when Jesus was around demonstrates that he was not the Messiah, along with the fact that all Jews did not move to Israel (the exact opposite happened, in fact), and there has never been world peace either when Jesus was around, or after. ALl these things, and more, will accompany the Messiah.

 

There are some Jews even now who may accept Jesus, but that doesn't mean that all Jews do, or that Jews who strictly follow the Torah do. The vast majority of Jews do not think Jesus was the Messiah. Rabbis are pretty good and showing why this is.

[Moai]

i agree.

 

this is addressed to moai: you speak intelligently. i have thought that even when, perhaps especially when, we are disagreeing. what you say about god is mostly correct too - there is an illogical inescapability that jesus DID say that if you ask you will get something and yet people hardly ever get what they ask for.

 

Thank you for the compliment.

 

now if you have experienced god and therefore know that god really exists, you must think that there can only be two reasons for this lack of answered prayer.

 

Well, that's the crux of it, isn't it. First, one must determine if in fact he or she did experience god. The definitions that accompany such experiences are largely cultural. For example, two people can have the same experience, but if one is living in the US he will ascribe it to Jesus, but in Iran he will ascribe it to Allah.

 

one is that something has gone wrong at god's end and he has broken his side of the bargain and gone back on his word. most deists would tell you this is unlikely.

 

I don't mean to be nitpicky, but I think you mean "theists", not deists. Deists would not assert that god answers prayer at all. But I see your point.

 

the other is that something has gone wrong at our end and either we have misinterpreted the text or failed to do/be/think something that is necessary in order to get our prayer answered.

 

There is no scripture that asserts this that I know of. Belief is all that is required. Nowhere does it say believe "x" amount and prayers work, less than that and they don't. How can such a thing be quantified. Jesus was very specific about prayer.

 

Why is it that no matter who is doing the praying, when something specific and that has little probablility is prayed for it never happens?

 

speaking as a person who has sought, and found, i can tell you the following... the reason most prayer is not answered is because god will NEVER answer a prayer that will help to confirm a view of god that is out of line with reality.

 

Do you have a scripture for this idea?

 

imagine a child thinking that its father is immortal. this isn't a big problem when the child is small, lots of kids have unrealistic views of their parents. but when that child grows and becomes a teenager and then an adult, its view of the parent needs to change. what would you think of a parent who never put the child right on this issue? what would you think if the parent set up stunts where it appeared like he was walking unscathed from terrible car crashes or after jumping out of a plane without a parachute?

 

Interestingly, that is what Jews say. Revelation is for everyone, not ust one person. Also, I think it is in Deuteronomy, God says that he grants some individuals the ability to do "miracles" to tempt his followers and see if they will leave the path. If you read the text, in the Old Testament nowhere does God rely on individual testimony, but in the New it is everywhere. I never thought of it, but I have been reading up on Judaism lately.

 

i'm betting you'd think the father wasn't helping the child grow into an adult. i'm betting you'd think it was dangerous for the father to teach the child something that is very far from reality.

 

And you would be right.

 

it is the same with god. the reason god doesn't answer prayers that confirm - in the mind of the person praying - an unrealistic view of god, is that god wants his children to realise that their view of him is incorrect. he wants his children to grow up and know him as he REALLY is. so far, for the vast majority of christians, this hasn't happened. instead they make excuses for god, saying he IS answering prayer but the answer is 'not yet'.

 

Or the answer is "no". That is an interesting point, but that is not what the Bible says. If the Bible is wrong about prayer, what else is it wrong about?

 

as moai very ably pointed out, this is the reaction of a child who doesn't want to know the truth. and it's not at all scriptural.

 

But it is more rational, I suppose. It seems like it is a way to hold on to the belief, even though the belief has been shown to be flawed. I am not being flippant, nor am I belittling such a belief per se, it's just the way I see it if the book is wrong, then it's wrong and the being described in it is not who he says he is.

[Moai]

Do you recall your teenager experience, the great joy you had when you accepted Jesus as your Lord? Too often Along with our grown-up, and education, we lost the joy that a child could have. we harden our heart, no longer can see the world through a child's eyes, won't that be wonderful if we both have education and a child's heart?

Matthew 18: So Jesus called a child to come and stand in front of them,

18:3 (*)and said, "I assure you that unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the Kingdom of heaven.

18:4 The greatest in the Kingdom of heaven is the one who humbles himself and becomes like this child.

 

Yes, I do recall the experience. The feeling wore off in a few hours. I still believed for some time after that, but the feeling never returned, and eventually when I looked into what I actually believed by claiming to be a "Christian" I no longer consider myself a Christian--or a theist in any way.

 

If we are to know what is right by the fruits it produces, rational thinking and science is the way to go. I have mentioned it before, but look all around you. Everywhere the benefits of rational thought surround you. We live longer, we have more creature comforts, and more free time than ever before, all due to the idea that everything has a natural explanation. If we accepted the explanation "god did it" then we would not be having this conversation together, we would be huddling around fires thousands of miles from each other, with our teeth falling out, parasites ravaging our bodies, and on the brink of starvation.

 

And it doesn't surprise me in the least that Jesus (or those who spoke for him) would want me to abandon my critical thinking skills. If people thought more critically about religion, it would probably vanish.

 

The key point here is not whether someone should be credulous or not, but how that belief begins in the first place. You quoted the Bible, above. For that to have any meaning at all, one must first make the assumption that the Bible is the Word Of God. If I quoted the Koran to you, it wouldn't mean anything because you do not believe that the Koran is god's word.

 

But what of someone who does not have that bias beforehand? If I handed the Bible to a Hindu, he would read it and easily point out all the ways that it is a fairy tale, and have no doubts about it whatsoever. And the same would be true of you and his holy book.

 

You had a bias of belief before you ever picked the Bible up, and that bias is mainly cultural. That is not to say that it is bad or wrong, but it is a fact. From all the religions that you could have chosen, you chose the one that is dominant in your culture. Now, what version of that belief system you chose depends largely on your educational and socioeconomic background.

 

That is not to say that there aren't people living n Buddhist countries who are not evangelized, but that requires missionaries and the like, and such occurrences are rare. Most major religious conversions happened at the point of the sword--look at Latin America. A dominant Christian culture came in and wiped out the previous belief system, leaving its own in its wake.

 

It just so happens that I read your holy book the same way I read all the others, and it is so obviously wrong I find it amazing that anyone would believe it, I really do.

 

Evangelicals are right about one thing: The whole thing has to be literally true, or it doesn't work. The Garden of Eden story HAS to be literally true, or Jesus came for no reason. That being said, since we can obviously tell that the Creation story in Genesis is false, it follows that the rest of it is false. That is why these people fight so hard against evolution specifically and science in general.

 

I do not mean to take this debate into one about biology, I am just illustrating a point. I would be happy to discuss that on another thread, though.

 

Is it wrong of me to assume that for a book to be written by God, it would have to be internally consistent and factual? The Bible is neither. There are a great many websites dedicated to trying to prove that the Bible is consistent and correct, but when one reads their work it falls flat--sometimes to the point of comedy.

 

If someone is saying to me, "Believe the Bible, believe the Bible" shouldn't I examine it to see if I should? Shouldn't I use my critical thinking skills to determine if the book is correct? It isn't an "either or" situation, as there are thousands of other religions I could belong to, and all are equally plausible. My soul is at stake, so I don't want to pick the wrong one, right?

 

There are Muslims right now who believe just as ardently as you. How can this be? They "know" that Muhammad was Allah's prophet and that he was taken up to Heaven without dying just as you "know" Jesus died for your sins. They have no doubt, same as you. They think you are being led astray, same as you think about them.

 

I am not an atheist because the Bible isn't true, I am an atheist because upon scrutiny none of these books are true. And, when you look at god as a concept by itself, none of them CAN be true, as god does not exist. The universe behaves exactly as we would expect if their were no Supreme Being, so why postulate one?

[Moai]

Yes, we strongly believe there is a living God. BECAUSE what Bible said and Jesus said and Holy Spirit say SAME thing.

 

The New Testament says that. The Old Testament says that God is one, and that he is unchanging, and does not have, nor will he ever have a physical body.

 

Holy Spirit is in us, it is personal experience, so we know who Holy Spirit is, what Holy Spirit teach us. That's why our Lord Jesus want us to tell other people. If Jesus don't love you, then why He command us to tell with patience? If you use your head rather than heart or soul, then probably you will not get an answer. Can a heart debate with head? Let me ask you a question. Do you want to live your rest life with reasoning (cold) or LOVE (warm)? why do you fear to give up your reasoning? In love there is no fear. Stay in Jesus's love is totally safe and secure. Please ask your own heart rather than mind

 

You imply that reasoning and love are incompatible, and they most certainly are not. I love just as ardently as you do, but for different reasons. I love my family, and I love my fellow man. In fact, it is precisely because I am rational that I find oppression abhorrent.

 

Not to digress from the topic, but how do you feel about homosexuals? The Bible is clear (well, as clear as it seems to get) that homosexuality is wrong and an abomination to god. I don't feel that way. I am not homosexual myself, but I don't think that there is anything wrong with it. Thinking about the subject rationally led me to this conclusion.

 

I find it sad that homosexual teens have an exponentially higher suicide rate than their straight counterparts, and this is largely due to the attitude of Christians to homosexuals. Children who are gay are terrified to come out to their religious parents, and for good reason. Their parents freak out, call them evil, disown them--you name it. It is totally irrational and based on what shepherds thought thousands of years ago.

 

What about racism? Science demonstrates that race is really an illusion, that all men are so closely related that such distinctions as skin color or eye shape are meaningless. I accept that completely. How is it that many Christians do not? I am not aware of any modern church that dares to spout racist dogma (any more), but there are large groups of Christians who still harbor racist ideas. If God is love, and they believe as much as you, how is this possible?

 

The peaceful world that we enjoy is so precisely because of rational thought, not because of "love of god" or anything of the sort. The more religious and dogmatic a society is, the more oppressive and violent it is. Christians of different sects used to kill each other all the time (and still do in Ireland, probably), but now they don't. Why? Because eventually enough people began to think rationally, and realize that everyone has the right to believe what they want. That idea goes directly against the First Commandment, by the way.

 

The love you feel for other people comes from rational thought, not in spite of it.

[Love Hurts]

So God knew that Adam would eat of the Forbidden Fruit, but not only punishes him anyway, put the tree within proximity so it would definitely happen. Further, because of this transgression all men are cursed.

 

 

 

I understand what free will means, but by your own admission nobody has it. If God knows everything, then he already knows what I will choose--it is as if it has already happened. If that is the case (which you admit it is), then any choice I make is predetermined.

 

 

 

Ask yourself why virtually nothing you ask for in God's name happens. Get together with your church and pray for the end of starvation. Let me know what happens.

 

I do have a question for you: Why don't Jews accept Jesus? The Jews who were alive at the time and saw Jesus first hand and all of his miracles denied Jesus' messianic nature. Why is that? How could that happen? How could the most learned Hebrew scholars on the planet (more so even today, probably) so easily dismiss Jesus? Do they interpret their own scripture incorrectly?

 

 

Yes God knew the first man would sin… but did the first man know what he himself would do?

_______________

God chose us before the foundation of the world… imagine that knowledge.

 

Ephesians 1: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

 

Elect or predestined according to foreknowledge. He foreknew what choice we would make. As Christ looked ahead and foreknew what we would do He came to save us.

 

Hebrews 10:23

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; {for he is faithful that promised

 

God knows all: Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

 

Many answers to prayer have come to pass for me. There are prayers that were not answered that I personally did not feel was to ask a miss. Yet still did not or have not come to pass...yet they still could; as long as I’m alive on earth anything can happen. Our time is not Gods time ... sometimes quickly... sometimes slowly; I have waited ten years for two answers to prayer. I have seen prayer answered within the day and in a moment. Praise Jesus for His answers to prayer.

 

As for world hunger, world peace and an end to war and suffering.

We must realize also that Satan plays a hand in many things of this world.

2 Cor.4: 4 Tells us Satan is the God of this world.

 

We know this world will never end. But instead will be transformed; one day none of these things will be. When Christ returns to earth Satan will be cast into the lake of fire and along with his followers. Survivors of the Tribulation will walk into the millennial reign of Christ. And we that believe shall rule and reign with Christ for a 1000 years.

Then Satan will be loosed again for a little season to test the hearts of men. And finally no more… Its over; It will be heavenly on earth. No more hunger, war, pain or suffering.

 

We have to realize this life is a test to see what we will do with freewill. If this world were so great who would ever consider Heaven? None of us would ever want to leave this place for the promises of God. We can’t understand it all now… but each test is to make us more in the here after as well as on earth now. Life is much more than it appears to be.

 

I don’t have an answer for those that saw and did not believe. Obviously there are those that did believe. Likewise today we have Jews that do believe. Still according to Revelation through the Tribulation the Jews will believe and turn to Christ.

________________

 

Yes God knew the first man would sin… but did the first man know what he himself would do?

 

What is fair and what is not? How could man be deemed unworthy if man does not know he’s unworthy? If man never had a chance to live for or against God; man himself would not know. Who could judge a man that has not lived?

 

Man has to know what he is capable of; he has to live this life and see for himself. What will he do with his freewill?

Only then can man be righteously and fairly judged.. God knows; we need to know ourselves.

 

Why? God tells us we will be judged; each of us will be held accountable for what we did throughout our lives lived.

 

He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples with equity.

(Ps 98.9)

 

Equity- and none will say “not fair” considering God's judgment... none will argue their situation is unfair. We can know for certain through Equity all will be judged.

 

Each of us will know what we were capable of.

None will say; unfair.

 

God Bless*

[Moai]

Yes God knew the first man would sin… but did the first man know what he himself would do?

 

That dodges the question. If God knew, that is all that matters. What you are saying is that free will is an illusion.

_______________

God chose us before the foundation of the world… imagine that knowledge.

I can. And if such knowledge exists, free will does not.

 

Ephesians 1: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

 

Elect or predestined according to foreknowledge. He foreknew what choice we would make. As Christ looked ahead and foreknew what we would do He came to save us.

Uh-huh. So now you are saying that we DON'T have free will?

 

Hebrews 10:23

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; {for he is faithful that promised

 

God knows all: Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Yep. No free will.

 

Many answers to prayer have come to pass for me. There are prayers that were not answered that I personally did not feel was to ask a miss. Yet still did not or have not come to pass...yet they still could; as long as I’m alive on earth anything can happen. Our time is not Gods time ... sometimes quickly... sometimes slowly; I have waited ten years for two answers to prayer. I have seen prayer answered within the day and in a moment. Praise Jesus for His answers to prayer.

Nowhere is it written that you would have to wait, and, in fact, you never should. Since God can do anything at any time, why is He making you wait? Realize that whatever answer you give will not be based in scripture, and so, in essence, you will be adding to the book, which you are expressly forbidden to do.

 

As for world hunger, world peace and an end to war and suffering.

We must realize also that Satan plays a hand in many things of this world.

2 Cor.4: 4 Tells us Satan is the God of this world.

But God is more powerful than Satan, is He not? If He can stop suffering and doesn't, He is not wholly good.

 

We know this world will never end. But instead will be transformed; one day none of these things will be. When Christ returns to earth Satan will be cast into the lake of fire and along with his followers. Survivors of the Tribulation will walk into the millennial reign of Christ. And we that believe shall rule and reign with Christ for a 1000 years.

Then Satan will be loosed again for a little season to test the hearts of men. And finally no more… Its over; It will be heavenly on earth. No more hunger, war, pain or suffering.

Ok, but you realize that this was supposed to happen when Jesus showed up the first time, right? The Messiah will bring these things, not when he comes again, but when he comes the first time. And only time, according to the Old Testament. And this world will end, in about 4 billion years when the Sun burns out.

 

We have to realize this life is a test to see what we will do with freewill. If this world were so great who would ever consider Heaven? None of us would ever want to leave this place for the promises of God. We can’t understand it all now… but each test is to make us more in the here after as well as on earth now. Life is much more than it appears to be.

Every quote you have listed in this post shows that we don't have free will. And God doesn't have to wait and see, as He knows what will happen already. Your quotes above show that.

 

It's interesting, but I just found out that Satan is on God's team, according to the Old Testament. To imply that there is a being that can do what He wants without permission from God is to deny monotheism. We see this in the parable of Job, where Satan must get permission from God to test Job's faith--and God grants this, but insists that Satan spare his life. Satan does as God commands. Read Job 2:3-6.

 

The way they describe it, Satan is like a roadblock, used to test faith, and eventually increase it. It's like lifting weights. When you lift weights, you get stronger, your muscles grow, and you become healthier. So it is with Satan. God has Satan put roadblocks in front of you, so you will exercise your faith and your faith will become stronger. Satan wants you to overcome him, just like God does.

 

"I am the Eternal, and there is none else, there is no god beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Eternal, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Eternal do all these things." [isaiah 45:5-7]

 

To Imply that there is a devil that has his own agenda and works outside of God and without God's permission is NOT monotheism, and so must be rejected. The Old Testament is quite clear on this point, as is the above scripture. I think it is plain that any adjustment to the above is not holding with the Law, nor is it in keeping with God. If that is not true, why include the Old Testament with the New in the Christian Bible?

 

I don’t have an answer for those that saw and did not believe. Obviously there are those that did believe. Likewise today we have Jews that do believe. Still according to Revelation through the Tribulation the Jews will believe and turn to Christ.

 

There are people who were pagans once who became Christians. There are Christians who have become Muslims. There are certainly Jews who have abandoned Judaism and become Christians. However, the Old Testament predicts that not all Jews will follow the Law, and that many will be duped. I mentioned Deuteronomy in another post. In that chapter, God says that He gives some the power to do miracles specifically to test the faith of His people, because God does not want people to believe on miracles. To believe because of miracles is not to believe because of faith. Look it up.

 

I quote from a Rabbinical website, Jews for Judaism:

 

"In Revelation 22:12 (see also verse 20), Jesus declares, "I am coming quickly" to render judgment on mankind. To God, a thousand years is like an earthly day that has already passed (Psalms 90:4). It is a fleeting moment for God relates to the concept of time in eternal terms. Man could not relate to a day of a thousand years; but he can relate to one of twenty-four hours. As a result, "quickly" used as a promised time interval, must be understood in its simplest earthly definition as occurring in the near future otherwise it is used deceptively. Jesus did not come back "quickly," as promised, to judge mankind. The time has long past that one can claim Jesus will come back "quickly." Thus, what we have in Revelation 22:20 is a false prophecy."

 

If I were to believe any of it, I would give the religion that yours comes from more credence. It is older, has been studied longer, and they know better than I who the Messiah is supposed to be, and what will happen when he comes.

 

 

Yes God knew the first man would sin… but did the first man know what he himself would do?

 

The illusion of free will is not free will at all. What you describe is actually a deception, that is to say, a lie. If God knows what I am going to do but lets me believe that I have free will, he is lying to me. So, God is a liar. Nice.

 

What is fair and what is not? How could man be deemed unworthy if man does not know he’s unworthy? If man never had a chance to live for or against God; man himself would not know. Who could judge a man that has not lived?

 

But I don't have that chance, as it has already been predetermined.

 

Man has to know what he is capable of; he has to live this life and see for himself. What will he do with his freewill?

Only then can man be righteously and fairly judged.. God knows; we need to know ourselves.

 

But I already do know. Since what will happen is predetermined, there is a time when I know whatever it is that I am supposed to. So I may not know it now, but I will know it then. In fact, it has already happened.

 

Why? God tells us we will be judged; each of us will be held accountable for what we did throughout our lives lived.

 

He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples with equity.

(Ps 98.9)

 

Note you quote Psalms, which is the Old Testament. And yes, God will judge with righteousness and equity, but that is not the judgment that the New Testament describes.

 

Equity- and none will say “not fair” considering God's judgment... none will argue their situation is unfair. We can know for certain through Equity all will be judged.

 

Each of us will know what we were capable of.

None will say; unfair.

 

God Bless*

 

The description given in the New Testament is specifically unfair. The judgment listed in the Old Testament is much more fair, and equitable.

[burning 4 revenge]

Moai,

You assume that Jews rejected Jesus, That is really not true. In the years after his crucifixion there was a a very active Chruch in Jerusalem. There was much debate in the early part of the Christian movement on the nature of Jesus. Was he born God or was he a man blessed by God with special powers, or was he something else? The fact is that Christians under Paul started leaving their Jewish roots. It is Paul who said that you no longer needed to follow Kosher Law in order to follow Jesus. The Chruch in Jerusalem disagreed with Paul. The Chruch under the guidance of James said you must be Jewish in order to follow Jesus. You could become Jewish by circumcision and following Jewish law. Archaeologist in Israel have recently unearthed what is thought to be the earliest Christian Chruch. Dating to the very early 1st Century. Much of what we call Christianity today is a repackaging of Pigeon Greek and Roman traditions.

There has been a hypothesis that Jesus never claimed the title Son of God and that he was merely a Messianic claimant. The theory states that Paul used the term Son of God when preaching to the Gentiles to utilize something that would be digestable. Like some kind of transcultural transliteration.

 

It's impossile to say one way or the other. Jesus grew up in Galilee and there were pleanty of Hellenistic influences around. Sepphoris was only four miles from Nazareth and was a culturally Greek city, so it's possible that Jesus could have been exposed to many greek ideas. Whether he claimed that title for himself, or it was made by paul we will never know.

[Topper]

Moai Note that I use the term followers of Jesus and Not Christian. I think we are in agreement that Paul Hijacked The Jesus movement and started turning it into something else that today we call Christianity. The stories of virgin Birth of a god/man, the sacrificing of ones self for all the human race are all very Greek in origin. The Mystery cults of that time were included into the Jesus story.

It is my believe that a great many Jews did believe in the teachings of Jesus. They had a much different view of Jesus then those that followed Paul. It is the later persecution of those followers as well the Gnostic's and other so called Heretics that ended this branch of faith. By the 5th Century The Catholic Chruch had declared the end of all Heretical thinking.

[Moai]

Moai Note that I use the term followers of Jesus and Not Christian. I think we are in agreement that Paul Hijacked The Jesus movement and started turning it into something else that today we call Christianity. The stories of virgin Birth of a god/man, the sacrificing of ones self for all the human race are all very Greek in origin. The Mystery cults of that time were included into the Jesus story.

It is my believe that a great many Jews did believe in the teachings of Jesus. They had a much different view of Jesus then those that followed Paul. It is the later persecution of those followers as well the Gnostic's and other so called Heretics that ended this branch of faith. By the 5th Century The Catholic Chruch had declared the end of all Heretical thinking.

 

Yes, we are in agreement. Good post.

[burning 4 revenge]

Moai Note that I use the term followers of Jesus and Not Christian. I think we are in agreement that Paul Hijacked The Jesus movement and started turning it into something else that today we call Christianity. The stories of virgin Birth of a god/man, the sacrificing of ones self for all the human race are all very Greek in origin. The Mystery cults of that time were included into the Jesus story.

It is my believe that a great many Jews did believe in the teachings of Jesus. They had a much different view of Jesus then those that followed Paul. It is the later persecution of those followers as well the Gnostic's and other so called Heretics that ended this branch of faith. By the 5th Century The Catholic Chruch had declared the end of all Heretical thinking.

It's possible and it's also interesting that Paul came from Tarsus which was the birthplace of the Cult of Mithras. Mithras also was a dying and ressurecting Son of God.

 

Still, there are many differences between the Jesus story and the story of Mithras. And some postulate that Mithraism copied Christianity and not vice-versa. Not much is left to us about this religion, so we don't know its development.

 

People interested in Paul's differences with the Jesus movement in Jerusalem under James should read Paul's letter to the Galatians. It's all there in its originality and people whould have to make there own mind up about the consequences those disagreements had on history.

[Topper]

This iis one of those Odd things in the early history of the followers of Jesus. The letters Paul wrote are still around some in the original and others altered in later translations. On the other hand letters coming out of Jerusalem to Paul and or other Churches can't be found or at least not yet. Still historians know that they did exist.

[burning 4 revenge]

This iis one of those Odd things in the early history of the followers of Jesus. The letters Paul wrote are still around some in the original and others altered in later translations.

We have no originals. The earliest we have are from the third century.

[Island Girl]

The moment you pray, you BELIEVE you received it. It takes strong faith. Whenever you doubt, your prayers go in vain.

Mark 11:24 says, "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."

 

Wow. Out of the thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of people that pray for world peace daily, not ONE has a strong enough faith to be heard and given what they ask for.

 

Not in so many many many many years. Not one.

 

Even though the bible - the word of god - says "ask, believe, and it will be yours".

 

Truly eye opening.

[Island Girl]

How come God always answers mine?

 

Since god always answers your prayers why don't you help out and pray for:

 

1. An end to the genocide in Darfur.

 

2. Starvation on Earth to end.

 

3. A cure for Cancer, Leukemia, AIDS, Leprosy, Brain Aneurisms, Diabetes, etc.

 

Pick any one of them or your own if you'd like. Millions of people will be thankful and saved a great deal of pain and even death in some instances.

 

4. For the Canadian Government to stop allowing the clubbing of baby seals.

 

Surely this one deserves a prayer. In 2006 at least 354,344 were shot or clubbed last year alone. Most were under 12 days old and skinned while still conscious.

 

Don't they deserve one of your "always answered prayers"?

 

 

I can think of so many others. I'm sure you could think of many on your own.

 

Since he answers all of your prayers, you could do it right?

 

Or Love_Hurts - surely you believe ardently enough to have your prayers answered.

[Topper]

Your right we don't have originals But scholars believe that those writing are not altered from the original writing. I should have made that more clear.

[Storyrider]

Since god always answers your prayers why don't you help out and pray for:

 

1. An end to the genocide in Darfur.

 

2. Starvation on Earth to end.

 

3. A cure for Cancer, Leukemia, AIDS, Leprosy, Brain Aneurisms, Diabetes, etc.

 

Pick any one of them or your own if you'd like. Millions of people will be thankful and saved a great deal of pain and even death in some instances.

 

4. For the Canadian Government to stop allowing the clubbing of baby seals.

 

Surely this one deserves a prayer. In 2006 at least 354,344 were shot or clubbed last year alone. Most were under 12 days old and skinned while still conscious.

 

Don't they deserve one of your "always answered prayers"?

 

 

I can think of so many others. I'm sure you could think of many on your own.

 

Since he answers all of your prayers, you could do it right?

 

Or Love_Hurts - surely you believe ardently enough to have your prayers answered.

 

I don't know about the NT, but I don't think the Torah gives any reason to believe that God fulfills all prayers. The story of Job shows the opposite.

[Island Girl]

I don't know about the NT, but I don't think the Torah gives any reason to believe that God fulfills all prayers. The story of Job shows the opposite.

 

 

The post -- as the quote from lonelybird is listed - is to the point that ALL of her prayers ARE answered.

 

As to your post -- exactly my point. Nothing fails like prayer.

[Storyrider]

The post -- as the quote from lonelybird is listed - is to the point that ALL of her prayers ARE answered.

 

As to your post -- exactly my point. Nothing fails like prayer.

 

I guess I'm just pointing out that the OT God is portrayed as sometimes answering and sometimes not. So her interpretation is not accurate from an OT perspective, but also, the concept of prayers going unanswered isn't extra biblical. Moses wandered, lost for 40 years.

[Love Hurts]

That dodges the question. If God knew, that is all that matters. What you are saying is that free will is an illusion.

_______________

I can. And if such knowledge exists, free will does not.

 

Uh-huh. So now you are saying that we DON'T have free will?

 

Yep. No free will.

 

My first auto response is you’re the dodger my friend.

 

You refuse to accept the fact that you have free will.

You also have an issue with the fact that God in omnipresence sees and knows all.

 

You too like the rest of us will be held accountable. Know it or not?

 

You can play dumbed down … but God knows your heart.

He does not read lips.

 

Your free will is exhibited here. As is mine. I trust in God you mock Him; see the diff?

 

One more thing !!!!!!!!!! I am so weary of you twisting my words.

 

Can I call you twisted sister? Since you keep twisting my words around to make me look like a fool in my own eyes?

 

Get it right… I never said you do not have free will! Now lf you can understand that we can continue.

[Love Hurts]

Nowhere is it written that you would have to wait, and, in fact, you never should. Since God can do anything at any time, why is He making you wait? Realize that whatever answer you give will not be based in scripture, and so, in essence, you will be adding to the book, which you are expressly forbidden to do.

 

 

God works all things out in His good time. This is not a magic trick my friend.

 

Often times; God has to line up people and circumstances in many lives to create an answer to prayer.

 

A mocker would find that difficult to understand. Also one owning an impatient heart and a mind that lacks understanding …

 

Are you a spoiled child demanding of God?

Who are you to demand of Him?

 

You wait on Him… He is God you’re his child.

Does the pot demand of the potter?

 

Perhaps God makes you wait so long if your heart is not right?

I do not know?

 

I know; if your looking for magic tricks, God does not perform.

[Island Girl]

if your looking for magic tricks, God does not perform.

 

What you have posted is in direct contradiction to the bible. You claim it is the word of god after all.

 

And you quote the literal verse in other instances.

 

So you MUST know god does perform magic tricks. All throughout the bible.

 

Examples:

 

4:2 And the LORD said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod.

 

4:3 And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it.

[Love Hurts]

But God is more powerful than Satan, is He not? If He can stop suffering and doesn't, He is not wholly good.

 

 

Satan is a tool that is very useful.

Many will love and worship Him.

 

Many love Satan, as he too is a god the god of this world through- Satan… God divides His children. Some of Gods children rebuke Satan in the Name of the Precious Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Some of Gods children bow and worship Satan. Satan is an excellent tool to divide who is on the Lords side and who is not; don’t you agree?

 

If you wanted to know who loved you and who did not … what a great idea… put a pawn on the board and lets see who goes for it as their hearts desire. Many do! Some do not!

 

Many of Christs own that fall victim to Satan through death and tormentation; still those in Christ are not lost…as death in Christ is victory won. Amen