Lost my faith, might find it again...but might not

[Moai]

My first auto response is you’re the dodger my friend.

 

You refuse to accept the fact that you have free will.

You also have an issue with the fact that God in omnipresence sees and knows all.

 

No offense, but I don't think that you know what free will is. If God knows right now that I am going to Heaven, then at some point in the future I am going to do whatever it is that gets me in--whether it is born-again or something else. And because God knows this, I CANNOT do anything that will change that result. So, while it may seem to me that I am making my own choices, I am not--every decision I make will lead me to the preordained position.

 

If I had free will, every decision I make would be open-ended. The result would be unknown not only to me, but to God as well.

 

Prophecy shows that there is no free will. A prophecy says something, "at this time, this will happen." If the prophecy is true, those involved can do nothing that will impede the result, correct? Whether the individuals are aware of it or not, they are enacting events that for the omniscient, have already occurred.

 

I do not have an issue with it, logic has an issue with it. I have no problem if God knows and sees all, and I have no problem with free will. But both cannot coexist.

 

You too like the rest of us will be held accountable. Know it or not?

 

You believe that, I know. There is no evidence to suggest that is the case, however. Your belief system is one of many, and just as much evidence as all of the others--namely none.

 

You can play dumbed down … but God knows your heart.

He does not read lips.

 

Your free will is exhibited here. As is mine. I trust in God you mock Him; see the diff?

 

No, it isn't. If God knows all, He knew that this conversation was going to happen before it did. There was no decision I could make to not be sitting here right now, writing this.

 

How am I mocking God? If He is omniscient and I don't have free will there is nothing I can do about it, and if I have free will then God doesn't know everything. This is common sensical.

 

One more thing !!!!!!!!!! I am so weary of you twisting my words.

 

Can I call you twisted sister? Since you keep twisting my words around to make me look like a fool in my own eyes?

 

Get it right… I never said you do not have free will! Now lf you can understand that we can continue.

 

But you did. You did in this very post. You said above that God sees and knows all. As I wrote above, if God knows what will happen, I cannot do anything that will change that result. Therefore, I do not have free will. It is really quite simple.

 

I am not trying to make you look like a fool, in your eyes or anyone else's. I have quoted you, and anyone who can read this thread can read exactly what you said, and my response to it.

[Love Hurts]

Ok, but you realize that this was supposed to happen when Jesus showed up the first time, right? The Messiah will bring these things, not when he comes again, but when he comes the first time. And only time, according to the Old Testament. And this world will end, in about 4 billion years when the Sun burns out.

 

Daaa... no I never read that?

I have never heard of this before in my life ...so where did you get this thought from?

[Moai]

Satan is a tool that is very useful.

Many will love and worship Him.

 

Many love Satan, as he too is a god the god of this world through- Satan… God divides His children. Some of Gods children rebuke Satan in the Name of the Precious Lord Jesus Christ.

 

What you are saying implies that Satan has power of his own, and that he can do what he wants outside of god's wishes. Is that true?

 

Some of Gods children bow and worship Satan. Satan is an excellent tool to divide who is on the Lords side and who is not; don’t you agree?

 

Perhaps. But as how can we tell? I see men who claim to be of God do some pretty immoral things. Are they not leading their flock astray? How is it that someone who feels anointed to preach can go against what he preaches? That is the definition of hypocrisy, which you and I both know God hates. Yet those who follow them are as devout as you are. How can this be so?

 

Further, what you imply above is that your religion is not mono-theistic.

 

If you wanted to know who loved you and who did not … what a great idea… put a pawn on the board and lets see who goes for it as their hearts desire. Many do! Some do not!

 

Certainly. Does God allow Satan to do this, or does Satan just do it and there is nothing that God can do about it?

 

Many of Christs own that fall victim to Satan through death and tormentation; still those in Christ are not lost…as death in Christ is victory won. Amen

 

I would like to know your thoughts on the Isiah passage I quoted, and how you rationalize that with the idea of separate entities you have asserted.

[Moai]

Daaa... no I never read that?

I have never heard of this before in my life ...so where did you get this thought from?

 

The Bible. Specifically the following:

 

Isa. 11:12, 27:12-13

Micah 4:1

Isa. 2:4, 11:6, Micah 4:3

Isa. 11:9, 40:5; Zephaniah 3:9

 

You can also do a web search on Judaism and their Messianic beliefs and get much, much more. Or talk to a rabbi.

 

Oh, the Sun will eventually run out of fuel, and burn out. Given the age the Sun is now, cosmologists estimate we have about 4 billion years left--give or take a few thousand, of course.

[Love Hurts]

Every quote you have listed in this post shows that we don't have free will. And God doesn't have to wait and see, as He knows what will happen already. Your quotes above show that.

 

It's interesting, but I just found out that Satan is on God's team, according to the Old Testament. To imply that there is a being that can do what He wants without permission from God is to deny monotheism. We see this in the parable of Job, where Satan must get permission from God to test Job's faith--and God grants this, but insists that Satan spare his life. Satan does as God commands. Read Job 2:3-6.

 

The way they describe it, Satan is like a roadblock, used to test faith, and eventually increase it. It's like lifting weights. When you lift weights, you get stronger, your muscles grow, and you become healthier. So it is with Satan. God has Satan put roadblocks in front of you, so you will exercise your faith and your faith will become stronger. Satan wants you to overcome him, just like God does.

 

"I am the Eternal, and there is none else, there is no god beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Eternal, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Eternal do all these things." [isaiah 45:5-7]

 

That’s your desired perception… You hate freewill lest you realize you are accountable for your own actions.. [Wake up my friend you only fool you]

 

Good for you; your beginning to realize Satan is to test men. So how do you think you measure up?

 

Do you do the bidding of Satan or God?

 

Do you see my friend your life is a test?

Why is Satan here?

He will tempt you.... will you follow him... or will you seek Christ?

 

Life is only a test my friend......and eternity never ends.

In your lifes end; its all about you.

 

God Bless*

[Island Girl]

Some of Gods children bow and worship Satan. Satan is an excellent tool to divide who is on the Lords side and who is not; don’t you agree?

 

Isn't that completely unnecessary?

 

Why does god need a tool to dive who is on his side and who is not?

 

He is omniscient. Right?

 

So he already KNOWS who is "on his side" and "who is not".

 

And in the bible he requests permission from god for his actions.

 

He seems to not be able to just do whatever he wants - god must allow him to.

 

So god lets satan do all kinds of thing - horrible things - to people (both righteous believers and not) all the while knowing what the result will be.

 

Why put righteous people whom he KNOWS are believers - true believers - through pain and torture?

 

Is god a masochist who revels in the torture of his "children"?

 

And the others - the faithless - he KNOWS they are faithless. What are the "tests" for?

 

I can go into a kindergarten right now and give them test after test on classic literature. I know they'd all fail. I know they'd fail over and over again.

 

If I already know the outcome why would I waste my time? What would be the point?

 

For god, it'd be like watching the same TV show over and over again. He already knows what is going to happen. So why would he keep doing it?

[Love Hurts]

What you have posted is in direct contradiction to the bible. You claim it is the word of god after all.

 

And you quote the literal verse in other instances.

 

So you MUST know god does perform magic tricks. All throughout the bible.

 

Examples:

 

4:2 And the LORD said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod.

 

4:3 And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it.

 

Magic and trickery are attributed to Satan.

Miracles belong to God.

[Love Hurts]

No offense, but I don't think that you know what free will is. If God knows right now that I am going to Heaven, then at some point in the future I am going to do whatever it is that gets me in--whether it is born-again or something else. And because God knows this, I CANNOT do anything that will change that result. So, while it may seem to me that I am making my own choices, I am not--every decision I make will lead me to the preordained position.

 

If I had free will, every decision I make would be open-ended. The result would be unknown not only to me, but to God as well.

 

 

 

This thought process I will leave to another perhaps Bluestueday can break it down for you.; and then I can take from there…

 

You give me a headache my friend.

[Island Girl]

Magic and trickery are attributed to Satan.

Miracles belong to God.

 

 

Mincing words here. How are miracles performed? With magic.

 

 

 

Exodus

 

4:6 And the LORD said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow.

 

4:7 And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh.

 

 

AND AS PUNISHMENT:

 

Numbers

 

5:27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

 

 

YEP. THAT'S WHAT I'D CALL A "MIRACLE".

[Island Girl]

If you wanted to know who loved you and who did not … what a great idea… put a pawn on the board and lets see who goes for it as their hearts desire. Many do! Some do not!

 

--- See? You say "if you wanted to know"

 

But if I was OMNISCIENT - as you claim god is - I would already know, wouldn't I?

 

So why the need for the pawn to test then?

 

I would know their hearts desire, their every thought, so why not just cut to the chase?

[Moai]

Ehhh. I've said before and I'll say again, head and heart need to be engaged for faith to be really vibrant. My heart isn't in it right now. (And I can't make my heart be in it.)

 

That said, I can still defend some tenets of the faith with the best of 'em. Someone was arguing the omniscience / free will thing, saying that because God knows in advance what we will do/choose, that means we don't have free will.

 

There's a real distinction to be made between foreknowledge of what someone will do, and removing that person's choice to do that thing. Ever seen that show Intervention on A&E? It follows the stories of people whose addictions (drugs, food, cutting, etc) are so bad that their loved ones stage an intervention to get them help. To me it's a good example of the difference between foreknowledge and free will: the family members KNOW that the next day, because their kid/sibling/SO is an addict, they are going to buy more methamphetamine (for example). So they have foreknowledge of what will occur. So does that foreknowledge mean that the kid/sibling/SO no longer has free will?

 

There is a great deal of difference. In the example above, they don't KNOW that their kid will buy more meth tomorrow. It is a likely event, but the kid could kick the habit himself, be unable to get any, or any number of things.

 

The foreknowledge you describe is independent of will, and is never 100%. I know that the store up the street from my house closes at 10. So I "know" that at 10:15 workers will come out and drive away. It happens every night. But there are a great many things that can happen in the meantime. A store meeting, a robbery, an employee firing, a store romance--all of these things can make my prediction wrong, and I have no idea if they will happen or not.

 

It even goes for my own situation. I am going to have dinner in a few minutes. On my way down to the kitchen, I could fall and injure myself and have to go to the hospital, never having any dinner.

 

Obviously not. They are still free to choose their self-destructive ways; all their family members can do is stand by and grieve and wish they would make a different choice. The interventions that they stage on the show invite the addict to choose to help themselves; but even then nobody can force that person to enter rehab.

 

Omniscience is certainty, and certainty about everything. If I were omniscient I would not only know about having dinner later, but I would know exactly what I would be doing ten years from now, and at all points in between. In fact, if I were omniscient, for me it would be as if all of these things had already happened. In order to be omniscient, I must be outside of time and space, as I know the future--which hasn't happened yet.

 

So that's kind of how I think about the free will/omniscience thing with God. It doesn't answer questions of why God stands back and lets us destroy our lives, and other peoples' lives all in the name of free will (I would think free will should have some divine limits - like God should step in when genocides are about to occur; would be much more effective than the UN!). It doesn't answer for me questions of why some/many people may never know or choose God (and because of that I may be moving toward a universal salvation kind of view). Still, my head can intellectually understand (and defend!) theological concepts even if my heart doesn't necessarily believe them anymore.

 

This has been a question that theists have been wrestling with for ages. If God is all-powerful, God knew about the Holocaust, for example. And he let it occur anyway. He knows about every abortion that has happened and is going to happen--there is nothing that He is not aware of. And yet, He allows these horrible things to happen. If God can allow such horrible things to happen, He is not entirely good. No amount of mental gymnastics will make it so.

 

Claiming that the world belongs to the devil is a cop-out, because not only did god create the devil (how can something entirely good create something evil), but if he is more powerful than the devil it would be incumbent upon him to stop atrocities regardless--if God is entirely good.

 

Some branches of Christianity claim that sickness and evil are punishment for sin, but that is a cop-out as well, since the saved are punished along with the guilty. Beyond that, infants are born with their spines outside of their body, have leukemia, cancer--and the are essentially innocent. Why would a god who cares about people allow this to happen?

 

The fact is that bad things happen to good people because of the law of averages. That's it. 30% of humans will get cancer, maybe you'll be one, maybe you won't. There is absolutely nothing personal about it. A meteor could crash into the Earth and wipe out 90% of all life on Earth. Why? Because there are meteors flying around the Universe, and they hit things.

 

The evil of man is easy to grasp when you realize that some people are not very nice, and sometimes can convince other people to follow them. And if you look at it, it is never because the culture or people in question were too rational--the opposite is true. The more we increase the rational, the less we see evil. History bears this out.

 

As I have posted earlier, the Universe and everything in it behaves exactly as if there were no god, gods, witches devils, etc. So why hypothesize one?

 

"Good people do good, bad people do bad, but to get a good person to do bad things takes religion." (I can't remember who said that, but I think its cool).

[Island Girl]

You hate freewill lest you realize you are accountable for your own actions.. [Wake up my friend you only fool you]

 

Actually atheists embrace free will and full accountability of our own actions.

 

Some religions, such as Christianity, believe in predestination.

 

The bible says the twists and turns are already mapped out before us.

 

The choices are already made - god being omniscient knows what we will do at every crossroads - therefore free will is an illusion.

 

We think we are making choices and have some control of our destiny when in fact there is only one road we are on with no real way to veer on to another.

 

Imagine coming to a road where you think you can go left or right.

What you are failing to realize is that decision is already known by the omniscient god and you can not go against what has been decided or known.

You will never be able to make a choice that isn't predestined - or already made.

You really only have one choice and that choice was made long before you got to that crossroads.

 

And you had nothing to do with that choice that was already made.

 

God made the choice for you because he can see where you are going what you are thinking and what you are going to do now, days, and years from now.

 

It is his "plan".

 

So your "freedom of choice" is an illusion.

 

So free will is an illusion.

 

------------

 

As I said, atheists embrace free will.

 

There is no supernatural being, god, deity, or force of any kind who is aware of our actions.

 

There is no god we have to somehow hold accountable for our lack of choice or judgment.

 

There is no predestined path we are on that can not change.

 

There are no forces of good and evil sitting on our shoulders urging us along or creating situations or trying to pull us in one direction or another.

 

At each crossroads a decision could be made either way or a completely new direction could be forged.

 

All of the decisions I make are by me. I am solely responsible for them.

 

I am the one accountable. Only me.

 

I view others the same way. There are choices a person makes in their lives and that person is the one held accountable albeit responsible for their own actions or choices.

 

Nothing is predetermined.

 

The good I do for my fellow man have nothing to do with bargaining chips to get into heaven or show somehow, to a god who already knows all, that I am "worthy" to get into a mythical place for eternity.

 

When I am giving it is of my own choice. I expect no reward now or ever.

 

When I am compassionate toward my fellow man or to animals it is because I can empathize with the other people or creatures who share this planet with me.

 

And when I am at times selfish with my time or actions - again it is my own choice.

There is no devil at work within me.

It is just me being selfish and unthinking.

 

I am simply making choices because I have the free will to do so.

 

So you see the atheist believes wholeheartedly in free will.

 

And wholeheartedly in full accountability for those choices made by free will.

 

It is religion and belief in an omniscient god that knows all and "has a plan" that destroys the idea of free will.

[lonelybird]

If you read the text, in the Old Testament nowhere does God rely on individual testimony, but in the New it is everywhere. I never thought of it, but I have been reading up on Judaism lately.

Actually in the Old Testament there are many places shows God want individual to witness about HIm, here i just quote one of them

Isaiah:

43:10 "People of Israel, you are my witnesses; I chose you to be my servant, so that you would know me and believe in me and understand that I am the only God. Besides me there is no other god; there never was and never will be.

43:11 "I alone am the LORD, the only one who can save you.

43:12 I predicted what would happen, and then I came to your aid. No foreign god has ever done this; you are my witnesses.

43:13 I am God and always will be. No one can escape from my power; no one can change what I do."

[Love Hurts]

Isn't that completely unnecessary?

 

Why does god need a tool to dive who is on his side and who is not?

 

He is omniscient. Right?

 

So he already KNOWS who is "on his side" and "who is not".

 

And in the bible he requests permission from god for his actions.

 

He seems to not be able to just do whatever he wants - god must allow him to.

 

So god lets satan do all kinds of thing - horrible things - to people (both righteous believers and not) all the while knowing what the result will be.

 

Why put righteous people whom he KNOWS are believers - true believers - through pain and torture?

 

Is god a masochist who revels in the torture of his "children"?

 

And the others - the faithless - he KNOWS they are faithless. What are the "tests" for?

 

I can go into a kindergarten right now and give them test after test on classic literature. I know they'd all fail. I know they'd fail over and over again.

 

If I already know the outcome why would I waste my time? What would be the point?

 

For god, it'd be like watching the same TV show over and over again. He already knows what is going to happen. So why would he keep doing it?

 

Ahh yes but again as God already knows…does man know?

 

See God is not being tested and purified through fire; man is.

Daniel in the Lions Den is a good example..God tested his faith, likewise what of Abraham tested for his faith ……… would he sacrifice his beloved son to God? God who is a jealous God and says I am before all you love.

 

What of John the Baptist why was he beheaded?

He was a man of God.

 

Some acts are of God; some acts are of Satan. In the end we hold fast and know our heart is with our King of kings… in the end of this lifes test to see who is and who isn’t …

 

So we go… We who believe and know; we would easily give our lives for Christ who advance has given His life for us. It’s the only and all we could offer God.

 

That’s love my friend.

Again this life test is not of God to test God… its of God to test man.

So the greater question is: is your life worth so much? And to who is it of value?

[lonelybird]

Moreover, God is very specific about his nature is the Old Testament, which states that God is one. The very idea of the Trinity does not concur with the Torah. If Jesus was born of a virgin, the it is impossible for him to be descended from the tribe of Judah, which the Messiah must be.

Did you read in the Old Testament God talk about Holy Spirit who come from God?

Jesus's mother Mary is a descendant of Judah

[Love Hurts]

Wow. Out of the thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of people that pray for world peace daily, not ONE has a strong enough faith to be heard and given what they ask for.

 

Not in so many many many many years. Not one.

 

Even though the bible - the word of god - says "ask, believe, and it will be yours".

 

Truly eye opening.

 

Actually we need to ask what god the starving to death have paid homage to and do pay homage to.

[Love Hurts]

Mincing words here. How are miracles performed? With magic.

 

 

 

Exodus

 

4:6 And the LORD said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow.

 

4:7 And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh.

 

 

AND AS PUNISHMENT:

 

Numbers

 

5:27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

 

 

YEP. THAT'S WHAT I'D CALL A "MIRACLE".

 

Mincing words here; you speak through a blackened heart.

I will defend my God; over your ugly words of His unjust and Holiness. His Righteousness rules.

Check out Witches or Warlocks for your pleasure; it not found in Christ.

Be convicted for who and what you are!

[lonelybird]

If we are to know what is right by the fruits it produces, rational thinking and science is the way to go. I have mentioned it before, but look all around you. Everywhere the benefits of rational thought surround you. We live longer, we have more creature comforts, and more free time than ever before, all due to the idea that everything has a natural explanation. If we accepted the explanation "god did it" then we would not be having this conversation together, we would be huddling around fires thousands of miles from each other, with our teeth falling out, parasites ravaging our bodies, and on the brink of starvation.

Did I say 'abandon' science? No. But if we talk about God, God is out of the range of science and rational thinking. You can use rational thinking and science to serve you, but if you are limited by it, you are living under the bondage of it. not make use of it. Do you see it?

 

I am not an atheist because the Bible isn't true, I am an atheist because upon scrutiny none of these books are true. And, when you look at god as a concept by itself, none of them CAN be true, as god does not exist. The universe behaves exactly as we would expect if their were no Supreme Being, so why postulate one?

There is a living God. Because Holy Spirit who is living inside of believers confirm us. The Bible talk about Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit talk about Bible and about Jesus, Jesus has to die and rise to send Holy Spirit to believers. Three say SAME THING. In fact in the Old Testament talked about Jesus's rise after death at many places.

 

Seems you and Island Girl stuck with the free will. All I see is you want to do things against God's will, then don't want to take responsibilities for yourself. It's like I want to commit adultery, but no, I didn't do wrong, because God already knows what I am going to do. Does this make sense to you? If you insist that God can decide for you, then Does God have to decide which fruit you should eat? apple or orange? which woman you should marry? I don't think you want to be ordered to marry one you don't want to. Then why concerning chose God or not, God have to make decision for you?

[lonelybird]

Since he answers all of your prayers, you could do it right?

Yes, girl, you are right, I could do it right:D . I seek God's will, I pray for spiritual fruits and other. I prayed, then I believed. if I SEE the result is not important, I believe God would take care of them out of love and good intention. Pray and leave the consequences to God. In fact, I've seen many prayers answered by God.

[Love Hurts]

No offense, but I don't think that you know what free will is. If God knows right now that I am going to Heaven, then at some point in the future I am going to do whatever it is that gets me in--whether it is born-again or something else. And because God knows this, I CANNOT do anything that will change that result. So, while it may seem to me that I am making my own choices, I am not--every decision I make will lead me to the preordained position.

 

If I had free will, every decision I make would be open-ended. The result would be unknown not only to me, but to God as well.

 

Prophecy shows that there is no free will. A prophecy says something, "at this time, this will happen." If the prophecy is true, those involved can do nothing that will impede the result, correct? Whether the individuals are aware of it or not, they are enacting events that for the omniscient, have already occurred.

 

I do not have an issue with it, logic has an issue with it. I have no problem if God knows and sees all, and I have no problem with free will. But both cannot coexist.

 

 

 

You believe that, I know. There is no evidence to suggest that is the case, however. Your belief system is one of many, and just as much evidence as all of the others--namely none.

 

 

 

No, it isn't. If God knows all, He knew that this conversation was going to happen before it did. There was no decision I could make to not be sitting here right now, writing this.

 

How am I mocking God? If He is omniscient and I don't have free will there is nothing I can do about it, and if I have free will then God doesn't know everything. This is common sensical.

 

 

 

But you did. You did in this very post. You said above that God sees and knows all. As I wrote above, if God knows what will happen, I cannot do anything that will change that result. Therefore, I do not have free will. It is really quite simple.

 

I am not trying to make you look like a fool, in your eyes or anyone else's. I have quoted you, and anyone who can read this thread can read exactly what you said, and my response to it.

 

 

 

Your on the road to man made Calvinism check it out.

It continues to make you feel cheap and unwanted by God…. if you enjoy soaking in self-pity and trash here it is. T.U.L.I.P.

Many have walked this road before you...so your not alone.

[Moai]

Did you read in the Old Testament God talk about Holy Spirit who come from God?

Jesus's mother Mary is a descendant of Judah

 

The Holy Spirit is not meant to be a "part" of God, it is the spirit of God. God is everything, not a Trinity, nor can the Holy Spirit be separate from Him.

 

The Old Testament references to the Spirit of God do not mean the same thing as the "Holy Spirit" in the New Testament. In the Old Testament, God's Spirit is another way of saying God's power.

 

I am sure that you speak of the geneology in the Bible that is supposed to be of Mary (although the Bible never expressly says so), but there are a couple of problems with that.

 

If Joseph was Jesus' father, he could never occupy the throne because his line is cursed. If Joseph isn't Jesus' father than he is not descended from David and Solomon because the family line passes from the father.

 

Nowhere in the Old Testament is it written that the Messiah will be born of a virgin. This was, of course, made up later to get around the fact that Jesus came from a cursed line and could never be King of the Jews.

 

God has a covenant with the Jewish people, a covenant that He says is unchanging and binding forever. FOREVER. God himself inspired the prophets regarding the Messiah, God also made the rule that family line follows through the father.

 

So, if you accept the New Testament version, God either lied to the Jews, changed His mind, or chose not to honor His own Law in this instance.

 

I will leave it to you to wrestle with the implications of such ideas.

[Moai]

Actually we need to ask what god the starving to death have paid homage to and do pay homage to.

 

Really.

 

How many believers died in Katrina? How many believers died in the WTC? Why would God starve children, who have no idea what they believe yet?

 

FYI, the people starving in the Sudan are CHRISTIANS.

 

I am not only amazed that you would suggest such a thing, I am also shocked that you ask such a thing without a trace of irony, or even a clue as to how offensive such a suggestion is.

 

God punishes the innocent along with the guilty, all the time, everywhere.

[Moai]

Your on the road to man made Calvinism check it out.

It continues to make you feel cheap and unwanted by God…. if you enjoy soaking in self-pity and trash here it is. T.U.L.I.P.

Many have walked this road before you...so your not alone.

 

I would appreciate it if you would not tell me how I feel. I actually feel fine. Never been happier.

 

I am not on the road to Calvinism, either. I do not believe in god, nor do I believe that the Bible is the Inspired Word of God. In order to be a Calvinist I would have to believe in God, and also believe that Jesus was His Son. I don't, and I won't, so I cannot be a Calvinist.

 

How can I be made to feel cheap by a being I don't believe exists? As far as feeling unwanted, how can something that is imaginary make me feel wanted?

 

And yes, Calvin believed in destiny. There are still lots of Calvinists around. Why are they wrong and you right?

[Island Girl]

Mincing words here; you speak through a blackened heart.

I will defend my God; over your ugly words of His unjust and Holiness. His Righteousness rules.

Check out Witches or Warlocks for your pleasure; it not found in Christ.

Be convicted for who and what you are!

 

 

I speak through a blackened heart?!

 

This is the complete reply to my post of complete biblical scripture.

 

I quoted the bible directly.

 

They are not my words they are (according to you) god's words. - God speaking of his own actions.

 

I did not make them up. Nor did I add to or take away from them in any way.

 

So, let me get this straight, there are passages that you post and read and reread but you do not accept the rest?

You do not believe in the whole bible or do not believe that ALL of it is true and is the direct word of god?

 

You must know your god has directed you not to do so. You are to accept all of it if you believe.

 

The passages you like and the passages that may be difficult to swallow.

 

I find it truly disappointing that you, Love_Hurts, who quotes the bible as frequently as you do - would resort to condemning me so vehemently for posting ACCURATE and COMPLETE biblical scripture.

 

Sadly - this is why there is a problem with religion.

 

There can be a discussion about hell.

 

You condemn me to it in god's name.

 

I am lost. I am the walking dead as you have posted again and again.

 

Personal - personal - personal.

 

You post about how I am looking for something (I am not looking by the way - I have a Christian background and know the bible quite well indeed - and have read the WHOLE thing - which is why I reject it).

 

You post away quoting passage upon passage from the exact bible that the quotes I posted came from.

 

Yet when I post biblical scripture from your bible that you say you believe, which make the questions a little bit harder to answer, there ceases to be any discussion at all.

 

And angry self-righteous words spew forth in your posts.

 

What? No answers to those particular bible quotes? They are written by the same god. They are his actions not mine.

 

I do not seek Witches or Warlocks. I do not believe in them either.

 

As to being convicted for who and what I am - ? I'm not sure I understand that.

 

Convicted as an atheist. Absolutely.

Is that "what" I am? Oh but I am so many more other things too!

 

As for "who" I am - I am a beautiful, multi-faceted, complex, flawed human being.

 

By the way - I am not the one who has to resort to personal attacks rather than rational questions or arguments.

 

Cheers.

[lonelybird]

Really.

 

How many believers died in Katrina? How many believers died in the WTC? Why would God starve children, who have no idea what they believe yet?

 

FYI, the people starving in the Sudan are CHRISTIANS.

 

I am not only amazed that you would suggest such a thing, I am also shocked that you ask such a thing without a trace of irony, or even a clue as to how offensive such a suggestion is.

 

God punishes the innocent along with the guilty, all the time, everywhere.

You don't even believe there is a living God, how do you know God punish innocent? Didn't you contradict yourself?

and how do you know God punish innocent? You know a innocent? or you have been to Heaven and Hell, and knows everything?