Lost my faith, might find it again...but might not

[Love Hurts]

maybe I am not meant for either...

 

Pricilla I am sorry I should restate that… Predestination does not mean God decided from the foundations of the world I will create this one for Heaven and this one for Hell.

 

No He created man out of love and wants man to be with Him… still God looks ahead in foreknowledge and could see who will do what… He knew man would sin and came to save us.

Now man has a choice to claim salvation and be saved from.

 

Its why the word of salvation is here and now… or else Gods words of Salvation today are spoke in vain likewise Christ died in vain.

 

I hope you see you were made for Heaven and above all Christ want you to come to Him.

 

He did His part now it’s your turn to make a step to Him. … Of your own free will.

 

I hope this is more clear.

God Bless*

[pricillia]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/billions_of_people_going_to_hell.htm

 

 

Ok LH I have a question for you do you believe in what this person is saying?

[Love Hurts]

I understand. But you have claimed that God is omniscient. "Omniscient" means that He knows everything, past present and future. He knows what I have done, what I am doing, and what I WILL DO. If that is so, then there is no way that I can't do anything that will alter what God already knows. Therefore, if God is omniscient, free will is impossible.

 

It must be this way. I am not making this up, or even saying anything original. Believers have been wrestling with this for ages, and have yet to come up with an explanation.

 

I do not for a moment believe in fate or destiny. I agree that if I do not accept Christ it is all my idea, and because of my free will. And since I believe that to be true, I must also believe that God is not omniscient.

 

 

 

It is post #271.

 

 

 

Yes, and I apologize.

 

 

 

I will await your comments on post #271 before I comment further, but let me say that I have read the Bible, and it certainly isn't that simple. If it were, there wouldn't be 1500 different views on the subject--and that is just the number of different sects that call themselves "Christians."

 

 

Moai... do me a favor in post #271 you look up all those scriptures list and present them and then we will go from there... I am not shrugging just have much to do....

It would help us both as we study the word of God.

 

 

God Bless*

[bluetuesday]

hello again moai.

 

First, you say God must be veiled in order to make free will possible. Fine, but you have no evidence that this is the case. you simply believe it. That's fine for you, but some of us need a little more than just taking someone's word for it.

 

i DO have evidence that this is the case, it's just not evidence you consider acceptable because it produces no visible results. secondly i would never ask you to take my word for it. i would ask you to seek for yourself, but since you have declared no interest in doing so because you have a preconceived notion there is no god, you are in a catch-22 situation. you reject my assertion as having no evidence and they won't look for the evidence yourself because you believe you won't find it. as far as i can make out that is your position.

 

how do you know that you remember the plan? Are you sure that is what you remember, instead of you making things up and wishing them to be true?

 

i always had a strong feeling of what i was on earth to do. the feeling is not quite the same as having a preference for something, it is more like having knowledge of something. i can recall it because the brain is a symptom of my soul, not the originator or it. it is not in any way reserved for the elect. there are no 'elect'. there are only people who are willing to open their minds to things that don't operate along linear or scientific lines, and those who are not.

 

Hindus, who believe in reincarnation, say specifically that you cannot remember your previous lives, as that would effect the decisions you would make here, and the lessons you are to learn.

 

yes they do, but i did not say i could remember any past lives. my plan was not formulated in a past life. it was formulated in the time prior to this life.

 

I think that you consider it narrow because I reject your fantasy, and that's it.

 

let me give you an analogy. let's say you had no conception of what colours were, or how to differentiate between them. now let's say i explained to you that the colours we can see can be formed by the three primary colours of red, blue and yellow. of course there is a lot more to colours than this, but in this scenario i am trying to explain something quite complicated in a simple way. now you take what i say to mean that only the colours of red, blue and yellow truly exist. so when i further explain to you that green is a colour that is formed by mixing blue and yellow, you immediately use this knowledge to decide that since i didn't mention green as being a colour from the start and are now claiming it has slightly different properties from a primary colour, everything i've said about colours must be false.

 

this premise is actually quite similar to the conversation we have been having about god. i have tried to set out quite simply a rather complex subject by making it easy to understand, and because you have seen what you perceive to be holes in the argument, you have thrown out the entire thing. it is your right to do so, but it is not necessarily the most sensible way to learn about colours.

 

Typical. Anyone who doesn't agree with you just doesn't get it.

 

not really. what i am saying is hard to grasp when you're looking at the world through the filter of duality. i could not have grasped what i am saying either a couple of years ago, and perhaps the reason you have not grasped it now is down to my rather sketchy explanations.

 

I get it, I think it is silly, and irrational.

 

ah! you're right, you don't get it.

 

Tell me, do you have the same attitude? Are you open to evidence of another definition of spirituality than your own? I doubt it.

 

you're pretty cynical about people, you know. yes, i am definitely open to evidence of all definitions of spirituality, but they need to be genuine definitions. a definition that tries to claim people can be spiritual with no 'spirit' is a little weak. the evidence i seek for whether something is correct or not is an internal confirmation, not an external one. as i am refining my ability to recognise truth, my ideas are actually changing all the time. that includes today, when i saw something i was previously not willing to look at in a new light. physician, heal thyself, and all that. i fully expect that all my views will grow and change as i grow and change. what cannot change is my knowledge of god which transcends mere knowledge and is more like my knowledge of my own existence. i know it as i know my own name, as you might say.

 

You contradict yourself, even in that one sentence. You say there is no Hell, and yet you also say that you don't know where people are going when they die. If you don't know where people are going, how do you know there is no hell.

 

that is like me saying 'i don't know where my friend is going on holiday' and you interpreting it to mean that i'm saying she could be going to jupiter. if i don't know where she is going it doesn't mean she could be going anywhere that can be conceived of. hell, in it's traditional, christian concept of a place of eternal suffering and fire, does not exist. so even though i don't know where you are going, i know it won't be to the christian definition of hell.

 

some people have had visions of some of the lower realms of the astral plane and interpreted them to be hell because the energy in those lower realms vibrates as such a low frequency it can literally 'burn up' in a process that re-qualifies it to the vibrational level it is supposed to be vibrating at. this is a whole other teaching, but it accounts for what some people think is hell. also, i know god. it's that simple. god is not vengeful, and hell is a concept dreamed up by people who think god is vengeful, therefore it has no basis in reality.

 

I treat them all equally. I am also equally open to all of them. You are not. Who is more spiritually open?

 

i am. you are open only to what is defined by the consciousness of duality, which is why you treat them all equally. all things are not equal in reality. they are only equal in the realm of duality where nothing has meaning or value unless it's being classified according to its opposite. the truth of god does not operate in this way. there is truth, meaning there is what is ultimately true because it is line with the ultimate will of god to raise up all life... and then there is everything else. within the 'everything else' you find both worldly good and worldly bad, neither of which are necessarily 'real'.

 

What you want is for me to take your word for it, and grab your hand, and have you take me down this wonderful road you have found. It is a primrose path.

 

i want you to be free. while you think you are free, you will never be truly free because you will think no version of freedom exists that you don't already have. so you will not look for your freedom. the easiest way to bind people is to make them think they are free. but how you obtain freedom is up to you. me telling you i can help you means nothing if you believe it is *i* who is lost.

 

And yes, to an extent my reasoning is dualistic. There is either a god or there is not. I fail to see how that "blinkers" me.

 

whether there is a god or not is not dualistic reasoning. thinking god is the opposite of the devil is dualistic reasoning. dualistic reasoning is the reasoning that, as i have explained, defines things only in terms of their opposite. so the word 'good' only has meaning while there are things that are 'bad', and each term defines the other. this is the way most of the world looks at the world. it is the reasoning that makes people think nothing is absolute because all is based on relative ideas. so people in this mindset are blinded to a truth that exists outside this mindset. but there is a higher truth in that people can see the world not through relative terms but in the full light of god's truth. i am striving for this, and trust me, once you've seen the alternative, you will know a lot more than you do now.

 

I am sure that you don't consider me closed-minded because I reject leprechauns, do you? Do you think that I reject leprechauns because I don't understand them?

 

no, i think you reject leprechauns because you see life through the belief that nothing can be proven and therefore everything has equal vailidity to be accepted or rejected according to taste. this, as i have said before, is duialistic thinking that asserts acceptance or non-acceptance of any concept is equal. i will say again, there is a higher understanding which you won't see until you have overcome the consciousness of duality. of course while you are in the consciousness of duality, you won't see this. tricky, but that's why i'm persisting with this conversation. you have a right to know the truth that there is another way.

 

By definition you cannot interfere with my free will, but you are trying to convince me that what you say is true, are you not? And I have admitted that I am open to any evidence that you can present. You just haven't presented any.

 

moai, i never write anyone off as a lost cause. i am not trying to convince you. i suffer from no illusion that i could force you (through threats of hell or coercion) into my way of thinking and i have no desire to do so. i am simply telling you a truth. what you do with it is your call. it's of no consequence to me.

 

You speak with spiritual teachers in the spiritual realm, huh? How is that done, exactly?

 

imagine the brain as a radio receiver. it can pick up (through the help of the physical sense organs) visible light vibrations, sound waves etc and translate these energy waves into experiences of seeing things and hearing things for the person whose brain it is. well, the brain also has a dial of consciousness that can pick up frequencies outside the physical spectrum. if you learn how to attune your brain to the frequencies of the spiritual realm (which exists in the same physical space as the earth but at a higher vibrational frequency) you can communicate with beings in that realm who are assigned to be your spiritual teachers in this lifetime. this takes a conscious effort and the communication will often come in the form of intuitive insights which you can then 'test' in your life.

 

my tests have taught me that some insights are truer than others. i am human and of course sometimes i pick up insights that are not pure. these feel different to pure insights in the same way that fear feels different to joy. you can say they're both 'just feelings' but a perceptive person with any experience would know the difference.

 

the margin of error of whether you are making it up or not is the same as you would have in your 'normal' existence. how do you know you didn't imagine hearing a song on the radio? or seeing an aeroplane fly over your house? or speaking to a person on the bus? for some people, the distinction is not easy to make. for most people, it is. i have had false communication experiences, which have helped me to tell when i'm not having one. most people don't confuse reality with fantasy and i am one of them.

 

Nobody tells other people what to think in science. There is evidence, or there is not.

 

precisely. 'science' tells people that they can believe what there is evidence for and not what there is not evidence for. in my book, this is telling people what to believe. if 'evidence' wasn't such an arbitrary term, i might think differently. but right now, scientific materialism defines what evidence is and then conducts only those experiments for which there is a realitic likelihood of getting some. if no evidence (according to their narrow definition) were available, the question would be something that science wouldn't touch. this is so self-limiting it's a really poor way to go. most scientists simply don't ask questions they don't think they can answer. i saw a televised lecture once in which a kid asked a scientist what dark matter was and was told to restict the questions to those which could be answered. if we were talking about religious leaders doing the same thing, you would be one of the first in line to point out the flaws in that argument. the fact you defend it when you stick a scientific label on it... well, you don't need me to point out the obvious to you.

[Moai]

Off the top I will get to back post 271 you have many scriptures marked ...that would need looking into as I lack a photographic mind.

 

to address the rest of your post..

 

Then prayer and any work in the Lord is unnecessary as well … since some are His and some are not from predestination.

 

Why bother to talk to you. Since you’re His from the beginning or you are not?

 

There is an argument to be made for this position, and there is scripture to back it up. I realize that you have some reading ahead of you, but if you reject one idea over the other I would appreciate it if you could explain why one passage is right and the other wrong.

 

Either you will find Christ on your own or not…. So its His will from the foundations of the earth.

 

What am I doing talking to you then? You have been predestined one way or the other..

 

Why do we have Churches or ministers of the word?

Its all so useless to share the word of Salvation since either you is or you isn’t.

 

God is so confused in His word isn’t He?

 

If the Bible is His Word, then yes, He is.

 

Darn why in the world would He tell us to waste our time talking to unsaved souls?

 

Stupid isn’t it?

 

We should be born live and die and just go so where it was predestined.

Its so much simpler.

 

Hey, the Bible says that, I didn't say it. And yes, it is very simple. I don't believe it, but it certainly is simple.

 

WRONG!

 

Man is responsible for coming to Christ. Christ did His part; He died for us.

If he is not worthy of your effort now since His death on the cross for

you.

Then why would you expect to be in His Devine Kingdom in the afterlife?

 

Good point. At some point it would be nice if you would include some reasoning behind why the Bible says we are predestined in some places--a lot of places.

 

Here is the way I see it to be just and fair with man on earth…

 

There are so many good and wonderful people in the world, supportive helpful encouraging, humorously lighthearted; just terrific people we are thankful to have in our company or to have had made acquaintance with.

 

Still if we deny our creator who gave us life; are we really so much?

 

Yes. If there really is an omnipotent superbeing, I would think He doesn't care what we think one way or the other. After all, didn't Jesus say "what you do to the least of them you do to me?" So, by treating other people with kindness and justice, we are treating Him that way, and that makes Him happy. That is a quaint idea, and it also seems just and fair.

 

If we consider life has to have a greater purpose than like a vapor; here today and gone tomorrow or a weed that is grown and died. If we are more than that and hold a greater purpose and value; than to who or what do we hold greater and purpose to?

 

Those are pretty big "ifs." Why does life have to have a higher purpose? I quote Ecclesiastes again:

 

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

 

From this passage I would gather that there is no higher purpose. And God inspired someone to write this, did he not?

 

This is one of our divisional steps to and away from God our creator.

Some choose to believe this is all there is so eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we shall die… do all you can while you can or its our loss lifetime allotted.

 

And why not eat, drink, and be merry? You've got one shot at life, make it count. Eating, drinking, and being merry is not the same as raping, looting, and pillaging. I think that if more people concentrated on eating, drinking, and being merry the world would be a safer, happier place.

 

I would also suggest that while there is suffering, nobody can truly BE merry, so first we'd have to take care of that, and then on with the merriment!

 

While others…believe in afterlife and that this life has a greater purpose than we know. Many of those find the true living God; and do believe and follow Him. A realization of this lifes purpose is discovered through God and His word. Scripture teaches for those that do not see God and selfishly live this life for their pleasure and gain of the world; have no gain in God Himself.

 

Yes, God says things like that, too. I could get some more quotes, but we'll tackle #271 first.

 

My question is: why is as many desire to have nothing to do with God; [mocked and scoffed at] still when it comes to the concept of Hell being an eternal place of damnation for nonbelievers of Christ… many will say how horrible; what a tyrant of a God He is and who wants to follow a God that would send any to that place?

 

Doesn’t that sound selfish?

 

I'll use Ghandi as an example. He was one of the most peaceful men who ever lived, and helped free India from British Colonialism. he applied Thoreau's ideas about passive resistance and put them into practice. His revolt was decidedly non-violent (on the Indian side, anyway.) He never killed anybody, nor did he advocate the killing of his enemies. He lived simply (something that Jesus himself said to do), and was dedicated to egalitarianism. He was imprisoned often for his beliefs, but he never waivered. He was a devoutly spiritual man, albeit a Hindu. So, one of the greatest men to ever live, a man of peace and justice is consigned to Hell because he thought about God the wrong way.

 

Meanwhile, we have Jeffery Dahmer. Mr. Dahmer killed 17 young men, and saved their body parts--including their genitals. The only good thing he ever did for anyone was make chocolate for a living, which while it probably made some people happy, it also made a great many people fat. He was imprisoned, and while incarcerated he found the Lord, and gave his soul to Christ. He was murdered in prison, but upon death he went to Heaven, because he thought about God in a way that God approves of.

 

I will leave it to you to explain how that is remotely fair, or even rational.

 

It sounds as if man wants it all his way; including in the end of a fulfilled worldly life to the open arms of Christ in eternal life.

 

Your error here is that if someone accepts your above statement, that they accept that there is such a place as an afterlife, or a person called "Christ."

 

If God gave to us first; as Jesus was the sacrificial Lamb, who then are we to give nothing an expect the best of everything from God?

 

Gods judgments sound fair to me on this side of death as we live and breath.

 

We definitely have a different definition of fair, that is certain.

 

If we reject and want nothing to do with God, then we should gladly hold our stance in eternity and say;

 

I am so thankful I have nothing to do with Christ for all eternity. It was our choice made on earth and eternity is simply; [follow through] of our own freewill.

 

Exactly. That is almost exactly my approach. There is a subtle difference, though. It isn't that I don't want anything to do with God; I do not think that God even exists. Now if I am wrong and the Bible is true (or should I say, PARTS of it are true), then I am lost forever. This is also true if Islam is correct, or any number of other religions I could mention. The same is true for you. You are banking your soul (which you believe in and I don't, by the way) that yours is the One True Way. You have decided to accept the Bible as the Word of God and believe its precepts--less so live them, but we'll get to that later.

 

It is possible that the God who does exist would rather I worship nothing than worship false gods. So, in your devout belief you are hurting yourself more than I am. I am not saying that is the way it is, nor do I have any evidence for that being the case. But there is just as much reason to believe that as there is to believe the way you do.

 

If one is stead fast and certain God is not... then stay the course without grumble in the afterlife. And give thanks you have nothing to do with Christ for all eternity. Freewill is our own... be affirmative now and then.

 

God Bless*

 

Well put. I have made my (unless evidence comes in that changes my mind) decision, and if I die right now I would have to abide by it, no whining involved.

[Storyrider]

No, I don't believe there is such a thing as an aura.

 

Oh. My mistake. I remembered that the_alchemyst had brought it up, but I thought your name came up on that thread.

 

(If I had one I like to think mine would be blue, like the cobalt blue glass people used to collect. But I don't believe in them either.)

[pricillia]

Oh. My mistake. I remembered that the_alchemyst had brought it up, but I thought your name came up on that thread.

 

(If I had one I like to think mine would be blue, like the cobalt blue glass people used to collect. But I don't believe in them either.)

 

Like beach glass?

 

 

oh yes and I just sneezed and I said God bless you to myself... just to keep on topic.

[dropdeadlegs]

Hello my virtual friend.

 

I have read everything on this thread and am curious as to why you consider yourself atheist. I understand that you do not believe there is a God, but you also regularly say that you could be wrong about hell and other religious beliefs. That seems more on the lines of agnostic to me, but I don't know much about either belief (or lack of belief, whatever you want to call it.) I am only beginning to understand how the two are separate, but I am certainly intrigued and willing to hear the views of everyone.

 

I identify the definitions of atheist and agnostic as follows:

 

atheist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

 

agnostic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

 

I'm just curious as to how you have made your choice because I see some of both sides in you.

 

I have no belief system of my own as of yet, I am still on my journey and acquiring the education needed to make my personal decision.

 

Thank you, kindly, for your attention.

[Love Hurts]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/billions_of_people_going_to_hell.htm

 

 

Ok LH I have a question for you do you believe in what this person is saying?

 

Lets assume one percent of the population is born again… hmm what does that tell you? We are not the judge of souls.

 

God is and Salvation is of a mans heart… what many do not know is how many receive Christ in their dieing breath just as the thief on the cross did.

 

No matter what that thief did in his entire life… short or long lived… he was saved at the moment of request…. And Christ knows a heart.

This is why no man made chart on earth could tell what God knows…

And a true heart for God could simply only utter one word… Jesus..

And be saved.

 

Did you see the footage of the young man from Philly having his head removed?

 

He cried "Jesus". God knows his heart. I do believe Nick suffered for a moment and Christ greeted him at the door.

 

All power of earth and heaven in the name Jesus... a heart that is sincere.. is welcome in the Lord.

 

Also I had an old preacher say... I have spent my years in the hospitals.

Many in their last moment waiting to cross over have claimed the Lord as savior...

 

He said I can you tell you all... in all my years I have never met an Atheist that did not claim the Lord in last breaths.

In short man supposes and God knows.

 

God reads hearts.

God Bless*

[Love Hurts]

There is an argument to be made for this position, and there is scripture to back it up. I realize that you have some reading ahead of you, but if you reject one idea over the other I would appreciate it if you could explain why one passage is right and the other wrong.

 

 

 

If the Bible is His Word, then yes, He is.

 

 

 

Hey, the Bible says that, I didn't say it. And yes, it is very simple. I don't believe it, but it certainly is simple.

 

 

 

Good point. At some point it would be nice if you would include some reasoning behind why the Bible says we are predestined in some places--a lot of places.

 

 

 

Yes. If there really is an omnipotent superbeing, I would think He doesn't care what we think one way or the other. After all, didn't Jesus say "what you do to the least of them you do to me?" So, by treating other people with kindness and justice, we are treating Him that way, and that makes Him happy. That is a quaint idea, and it also seems just and fair.

 

 

 

Those are pretty big "ifs." Why does life have to have a higher purpose? I quote Ecclesiastes again:

 

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

 

From this passage I would gather that there is no higher purpose. And God inspired someone to write this, did he not?

 

 

 

And why not eat, drink, and be merry? You've got one shot at life, make it count. Eating, drinking, and being merry is not the same as raping, looting, and pillaging. I think that if more people concentrated on eating, drinking, and being merry the world would be a safer, happier place.

 

I would also suggest that while there is suffering, nobody can truly BE merry, so first we'd have to take care of that, and then on with the merriment!

 

 

 

Yes, God says things like that, too. I could get some more quotes, but we'll tackle #271 first.

 

 

 

I'll use Ghandi as an example. He was one of the most peaceful men who ever lived, and helped free India from British Colonialism. he applied Thoreau's ideas about passive resistance and put them into practice. His revolt was decidedly non-violent (on the Indian side, anyway.) He never killed anybody, nor did he advocate the killing of his enemies. He lived simply (something that Jesus himself said to do), and was dedicated to egalitarianism. He was imprisoned often for his beliefs, but he never waivered. He was a devoutly spiritual man, albeit a Hindu. So, one of the greatest men to ever live, a man of peace and justice is consigned to Hell because he thought about God the wrong way.

 

Meanwhile, we have Jeffery Dahmer. Mr. Dahmer killed 17 young men, and saved their body parts--including their genitals. The only good thing he ever did for anyone was make chocolate for a living, which while it probably made some people happy, it also made a great many people fat. He was imprisoned, and while incarcerated he found the Lord, and gave his soul to Christ. He was murdered in prison, but upon death he went to Heaven, because he thought about God in a way that God approves of.

 

I will leave it to you to explain how that is remotely fair, or even rational.

 

 

 

Your error here is that if someone accepts your above statement, that they accept that there is such a place as an afterlife, or a person called "Christ."

 

 

 

We definitely have a different definition of fair, that is certain.

 

 

 

Exactly. That is almost exactly my approach. There is a subtle difference, though. It isn't that I don't want anything to do with God; I do not think that God even exists. Now if I am wrong and the Bible is true (or should I say, PARTS of it are true), then I am lost forever. This is also true if Islam is correct, or any number of other religions I could mention. The same is true for you. You are banking your soul (which you believe in and I don't, by the way) that yours is the One True Way. You have decided to accept the Bible as the Word of God and believe its precepts--less so live them, but we'll get to that later.

 

It is possible that the God who does exist would rather I worship nothing than worship false gods. So, in your devout belief you are hurting yourself more than I am. I am not saying that is the way it is, nor do I have any evidence for that being the case. But there is just as much reason to believe that as there is to believe the way you do.

 

 

 

Well put. I have made my (unless evidence comes in that changes my mind) decision, and if I die right now I would have to abide by it, no whining involved.

 

 

I got through the first three quotes and QUIT… you are taking words out of context and enjoying every moment of it.

 

Rather than use it to gain you enjoy using it to folly. So be it.

Now just stop here dear soul and evaluate you!

 

Do you seek to find Christ EARNESTLY or is your mission in life to condemn Christ?

 

You know the answer in you heart.

 

If you hate God and seek to lead others astray; and are adamant to mock God at every turn. Why are you here?

 

I have a strong sense you don’t strive to seek God. As per say a lost soul.. but a mocker one of Satan; and Satan job is to pull down Christianity… have you read what a Satanist is?

 

Sorry to say you fit the pic my friend. Google Satanist and see what the main job of a Satanist is:

 

It is to demise Christ, Christians and the word of God.

 

So WHO ARE YOU Moai… and who do you work for?

 

I cant buy "Im ignorant" any more .... this is much more! You are the adversary of Christ!

 

Cecily-Satanism

I'm a Christian, not by anything that I have done, but by everything that Jesus has done. His love He showed for me by dying on the cross. His endless grace by forgiving my sins, my past, everything that I was before Knew Him.

 

Before I was a Christian, I was a Satanist.

[COLOR=#800080]Cecily-Satanism[/COLOR]

 

[COLOR=#800080]Satanist Test[/COLOR]

 

[COLOR=#800080]Cults Of Witchcraft[/COLOR]

 

 

Many people are completely ignorant of the fact that there are those who worship Satan. Even among those (Christian or secular) who know about them there is a great deal of confusion as to just what it is to be a Satanist. We shouldn't feel bad - there is even MORE confusion about what a Satanist is among Satanists. One reason for this is that "Satanism" is such a broad term. There are several groups which call themselves "Satanists."

 

There are also many groups which call themselves "witches" and "occultists" who are not necessarily Satanic or Antichristian. (These are Wiccan, Pagans, Druids and the various "majick" enthusiasts. For more information on them please visit my RESPONSE to PAGANS link or my online book, THE SWORD.)

 

Here is a list of the different groups that call themselves Satanists:

 

1.he Maralyn Manson clones who walk around wearing black and just acting mad at the world.

2. People who play occultic role playing games and get a little too excited about Satan.

3. Dabblers in the occult and satanism who just think it's cool way to be a rebel.

4. Some Pagans who worship the darker gods or "dieties" and practice black majic for fun.

5. Organized people (mostly in other countries) who do practice voodoo, Santaria or other openly and self-proclaimed demonic arts.

6. Anton LeVay's group that worships the "Satan concept" (self-worship), his Satanic Bible and national Church.

7. People who are independent and self-styled satanists. They participate in various rituals, do research and even form small covens.

8. Actual antichristian groups who form large, militant covens and use their resources in an attempt to thwart the work of Christ.

9. Underground satanic confederations and larger international associations formed as enemies of the Christian Church. The highest level of leadership includes multi-generational groups.

 

There are testimonies of people who have been delivered from involvement in each of the levels listed above. I have personally met representatives of each of these nine groups. All of these groups are spoken of or dealt with in the Bible. I will present a more detailed description of what the Bible teaches about them in my online book THE SWORD. (listed below) Here are some informative links dealing with Satanism:

 

 

[COLOR=#800080]Christian links about Satanism[/COLOR]

 

The greatest work of a Satanist is to destroy Christ and Christanity.

 

Can you relate to any of this my friend?

You do not for Christ... Who do you work for?

God Bless*

[Moai]

hello again moai.

 

Hello! First let me say that "location location location" is hilarious! I just noticed that. And is your avatar Steve McQueen? Looks kinda like him.

 

i DO have evidence that this is the case, it's just not evidence you consider acceptable because it produces no visible results. secondly i would never ask you to take my word for it. i would ask you to seek for yourself, but since you have declared no interest in doing so because you have a preconceived notion there is no god, you are in a catch-22 situation. you reject my assertion as having no evidence and they won't look for the evidence yourself because you believe you won't find it. as far as i can make out that is your position.

 

You describe a type of evidence with which I am unfamiliar. I would use the term "tangible" instead of visible, but I take your point.

 

Your understanding of my position is not correct. My notion that there is no God is not preconceived, I once believed in God. Once I began to look more earnestly for him/her/it, the more I saw that there probably isn't one. I am constantly looking, actually. But, as you say, I do require tangible evidence. Otherwise I may as well believe in the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, or Scientology.

 

i always had a strong feeling of what i was on earth to do. the feeling is not quite the same as having a preference for something, it is more like having knowledge of something. i can recall it because the brain is a symptom of my soul, not the originator or it. it is not in any way reserved for the elect. there are no 'elect'. there are only people who are willing to open their minds to things that don't operate along linear or scientific lines, and those who are not.

 

I do believe that everything has a naturalistic explanation, even what you describe above. I am sure that what you believe gives you a great deal of emotional comfort and some intellectual comfort (or you wouldn't bother to try to explain it.) Good for you, really. But it is possible--if not probable--that you are deluded. Either way, a comforting delusion works the same as a comforting truth. It is a different matter when the truth is not so comfortable, but must be accepted because it can be demonstrated to be true.

 

Let's say that I decide that god is in everything. I believe this. So, whether consciously or not I begin to notice evidence for this idea, and as time goes on there is more and more. I cannot see any evidence against this position. The reason for this is known as "cognitive bias" and also "selective thinking." Because I am convinced of an idea, I only look for that which reinforces it, and ignore evidence that challenges it. Soon, I have reached a place where there is no room for doubt. I arrived here without a hint of real rational thought or evidence, but in my mind I have.

 

I do everything in my power to resist cognitive bias. I test my ideas MORE stringently than I do the ideas of others, simply because they are mine. My beliefs are constantly under assault, by me and also in my discussions with others. That is why I hold the possibility that I could be wrong, because it has happened before and will happen again.

 

yes they do, but i did not say i could remember any past lives. my plan was not formulated in a past life. it was formulated in the time prior to this life.

 

That is not my understanding, but I could be wrong. I'll look into Hinduism a little more and check it out. It's been a while since I took World Religions.

 

let me give you an analogy. let's say you had no conception of what colours were, or how to differentiate between them. now let's say i explained to you that the colours we can see can be formed by the three primary colours of red, blue and yellow. of course there is a lot more to colours than this, but in this scenario i am trying to explain something quite complicated in a simple way. now you take what i say to mean that only the colours of red, blue and yellow truly exist. so when i further explain to you that green is a colour that is formed by mixing blue and yellow, you immediately use this knowledge to decide that since i didn't mention green as being a colour from the start and are now claiming it has slightly different properties from a primary colour, everything i've said about colours must be false.

 

Bad analogy. From the outset, if I have no concept of colors or how to differentiate between them, anything you say to me about color would be meaningless, since for me color does not exist, and no explanation is possible. I would conclude that your assertion that color exists is false.

 

To continue your analogy, though, let's say you can see color and I can't. I will never understand what you are talking about with regard to color. I again say that this makes you somehow part of an "elect", that is to say, one of the subset of individuals who can see color, and therefore have access to something I will never see or understand. What system can exist that would give one person the ability to enjoy color and another not, seemingly arbitrarily?

 

Notice I am not refusing to see color, nor do I see color but deny that there is such a thing. I cannot see or differentiate color. My perception is limited, and therefore my access to the "truth" of color is nonexistent.

 

this premise is actually quite similar to the conversation we have been having about god. i have tried to set out quite simply a rather complex subject by making it easy to understand, and because you have seen what you perceive to be holes in the argument, you have thrown out the entire thing. it is your right to do so, but it is not necessarily the most sensible way to learn about colours.

 

As stated above, cannot learn about colors. And it isn't what I "perceive" as holes in your argument, the holes are there for anyone to see. If I am erroneous in my reasoning, feel free to point it out. And yes, if your initial premise is incorrect, if your logic is 100% your conclusion is false. The only way you could reach a true conclusion would be in an error in logic.

 

As you have pointed out, I don't think that the subject is as complex as you realize. There either is a god, or there isn't. Simple. Now, if yo uwant to redefine god from the generally accepted definition of it and then try to explain how that works I would agree that yes, such a subject is complex. And feel free. Even if your notion of god isn't nonsense, it is essentially meaningless (everything is god, etc.) and therefore so is all that comes after.

 

And I didn't make the rules of evidence, I just follow them.

 

not really. what i am saying is hard to grasp when you're looking at the world through the filter of duality. i could not have grasped what i am saying either a couple of years ago, and perhaps the reason you have not grasped it now is down to my rather sketchy explanations.

 

What you are saying is not hard to grasp at all, I just reject it. Don't for a moment think that I cannot follow what you say, or understand what you say means. I just think it is nonsense.

 

I disagree that your explanations are sketchy, you actually explain yourself quite well. I would blame your material.

 

Beyond the obvious I have mentioned (God or no god), I am curious as to what you mean by my filter of duality. I await your comments.

 

ah! you're right, you don't get it.

 

Ha! At this juncture let me say it is a pleasure corresponding with you on this thread, whether silly or irrational or whatever. I also find your openness and candor refreshing.

 

you're pretty cynical about people, you know. yes, i am definitely open to evidence of all definitions of spirituality, but they need to be genuine definitions. a definition that tries to claim people can be spiritual with no 'spirit' is a little weak.

 

You don't get it. I definitely agree that I have a spirit, but I do not think that it can be described as an everlasting soul, or something that lives beyond me and somehow learns and picks up "truth" or somesuch.

 

I lead a very fruitful spiritual life, actually. The wonder of the world around me never ceases to amaze me, and fill me with awe.

 

the evidence i seek for whether something is correct or not is an internal confirmation, not an external one. as i am refining my ability to recognise truth, my ideas are actually changing all the time. that includes today, when i saw something i was previously not willing to look at in a new light. physician, heal thyself, and all that. i fully expect that all my views will grow and change as i grow and change. what cannot change is my knowledge of god which transcends mere knowledge and is more like my knowledge of my own existence. i know it as i know my own name, as you might say.

 

You describe my feeling in the above as well. I part with you on whether or not reality has a consciousness, or that my spirit lives on beyond me. It doesn't make my experience any less wonderous, or any less fulfilling--I would say it does just the opposite.

 

that is like me saying 'i don't know where my friend is going on holiday' and you interpreting it to mean that i'm saying she could be going to jupiter. if i don't know where she is going it doesn't mean she could be going anywhere that can be conceived of. hell, in it's traditional, christian concept of a place of eternal suffering and fire, does not exist. so even though i don't know where you are going, i know it won't be to the christian definition of hell.

 

Good try. But, in your above analogy, her going to Jupiter is equally as plausible as her going to France, or her mom's house. The fact that the concept of Hell can be shown to be silly, that doesn't mean that all the others aren't silly, too.

 

some people have had visions of some of the lower realms of the astral plane and interpreted them to be hell because the energy in those lower realms vibrates as such a low frequency it can literally 'burn up' in a process that re-qualifies it to the vibrational level it is supposed to be vibrating at. this is a whole other teaching, but it accounts for what some people think is hell. also, i know god. it's that simple. god is not vengeful, and hell is a concept dreamed up by people who think god is vengeful, therefore it has no basis in reality.

 

Okay. Here, your logic is flawed but your conclusion is correct. I cannot say that whether you know God or not, but I would say you don't since he doesn't exist, but that is beside the point. If in fact God does exist, and he is not vengeful, then Hell does not exist. Since Christians postulate that God is entirely good, they must also acknowledge that hell is impossible--but then that is where the gymnastics begin!

 

i am. you are open only to what is defined by the consciousness of duality, which is why you treat them all equally. all things are not equal in reality. they are only equal in the realm of duality where nothing has meaning or value unless it's being classified according to its opposite. the truth of god does not operate in this way. there is truth, meaning there is what is ultimately true because it is line with the ultimate will of god to raise up all life... and then there is everything else. within the 'everything else' you find both worldly good and worldly bad, neither of which are necessarily 'real'.

 

Sure thing. All ideas are not equal in this reality, either. All of the ones I mentioned are, as is the idea you express above, but ideas here, in this reality, are certainly not equal, and not in a dual sense. And I need not know "ultimate evil" to recognize evil. The Holocaust is just about the most evil thing I have ever heard of, but I am sure that it isn't "ultimate."

 

i want you to be free. while you think you are free, you will never be truly free because you will think no version of freedom exists that you don't already have. so you will not look for your freedom. the easiest way to bind people is to make them think they are free. but how you obtain freedom is up to you. me telling you i can help you means nothing if you believe it is *i* who is lost.

 

I don't think that you are "lost," I think that you are delusional. There is a huge difference. Can you be specific as to which freedoms I lack? I have an inkling that you are referring to me being "bound" by my adherence to scientific inquiry, and to the rules of evidence. I am, that is certain, and I am bound by them voluntarily. Obviously you are not, and while you would claim greater freedom, I would say that it is you who is not truly free. You are dragged about hither and thither by your feelings and perceptions, accepting that which fits your notions. To what end? You referred to "ultimate good" before. Ultimately, your way of thinking will lead you into a nether world, where reality is a far away dream longed for in the cold of night.

 

It very well could be that I am experiencing a certain form of bandage. But such bondage keeps me rooted in what is here, what is now, and helps me separate what is real from what is imagined, and not let my perceptions cloud my thinking. In point of fact, it isn't bondage at all because I am freed from my self-deception (as much as anyone can be.)

 

whether there is a god or not is not dualistic reasoning. thinking god is the opposite of the devil is dualistic reasoning. dualistic reasoning is the reasoning that, as i have explained, defines things only in terms of their opposite. so the word 'good' only has meaning while there are things that are 'bad', and each term defines the other. this is the way most of the world looks at the world. it is the reasoning that makes people think nothing is absolute because all is based on relative ideas. so people in this mindset are blinded to a truth that exists outside this mindset. but there is a higher truth in that people can see the world not through relative terms but in the full light of god's truth. i am striving for this, and trust me, once you've seen the alternative, you will know a lot more than you do now.

 

Yes, whether there is a god or not is dualistic reasoning. There are only two (hence the term "dual") outcomes. There are lots of things that are absolute: Lord Kelvin calculated absolute zero. There is nothing colder than that. Light travels at 186,000 miles per second. There is nothing faster than that.

 

Your thinking above is dualistic as well. There is my way of thinking and yours. There is the belief that nothing is absolute and there is not. There is god's truth, and obviously untruth.

 

Evil and Good, while dualistic in relation to each other, are not. There are things that are more good and less good, just as there is more evil and less evil. There are also many things that fall in between them, and where such descriptions are meaningless.

 

no, i think you reject leprechauns because you see life through the belief that nothing can be proven and therefore everything has equal vailidity to be accepted or rejected according to taste.

 

Not true. All things for which there is no evidence are equally plausible. No evidence for god, no evidence for leprechauns, therefore they are the same. The concept of leprechauns is not on equal footing with the idea that the Earth revolves around the sun. We have evidence that the Earth revolves around the Sun. Mountains of it. Is it possible that we are wrong about that? Certainly. But it is so extremely unlikely that to doubt it is foolish and silly.

 

God could have created us two seconds ago with all our memories in tact. Possible, highly unlikely.

 

Hence the rules of evidence. All of your senses, alone or together, can deceive you. Your emotions can deceive you. So, we do the best we can to remove them from how we look at the how and why of the Universe. And it is working really well.

 

Given your perception, and your assertions, what you believe has made you feel better, and has somehow opened up a sense of awareness you did not have before. You have said that you really enjoy the feeling. That is in no way relational as to whether your belief is true or not. You could be wrapping a lie around yourself, but you'd never know it.

 

If I tell you you're deluded and show you evidence to that end, much like in cult-think, it's just that I don't get it, I am trapped in some form of thinking that is erroneous, and on and on. You can just dismiss all opposition out of hand. This is exactly what Christians do when they claim I cannot understand the Bible. They need not address the contradiction, there isn't one because I just don't get it, even though the contradiction is there.

 

this, as i have said before, is duialistic thinking that asserts acceptance or non-acceptance of any concept is equal. i will say again, there is a higher understanding which you won't see until you have overcome the consciousness of duality. of course while you are in the consciousness of duality, you won't see this. tricky, but that's why i'm persisting with this conversation. you have a right to know the truth that there is another way.

 

See above. I would be happy to read what you can describe that isn't a dual way of thinking.

 

moai, i never write anyone off as a lost cause. i am not trying to convince you. i suffer from no illusion that i could force you (through threats of hell or coercion) into my way of thinking and i have no desire to do so. i am simply telling you a truth. what you do with it is your call. it's of no consequence to me.

 

As mentioned in a post previously, I know you are not using force. I also understand that it is of no consequence to you, but others are reading this and forming their own conclusions as well. And though you are not using threats per se, your reasoning is the same.

 

imagine the brain as a radio receiver. it can pick up (through the help of the physical sense organs) visible light vibrations, sound waves etc and translate these energy waves into experiences of seeing things and hearing things for the person whose brain it is. well, the brain also has a dial of consciousness that can pick up frequencies outside the physical spectrum. if you learn how to attune your brain to the frequencies of the spiritual realm (which exists in the same physical space as the earth but at a higher vibrational frequency) you can communicate with beings in that realm who are assigned to be your spiritual teachers in this lifetime. this takes a conscious effort and the communication will often come in the form of intuitive insights which you can then 'test' in your life.

 

And the brain sense these frequencies how, if not through the sense organs? Can I build a receiver and hear them? What frequency exactly?

 

my tests have taught me that some insights are truer than others. i am human and of course sometimes i pick up insights that are not pure. these feel different to pure insights in the same way that fear feels different to joy. you can say they're both 'just feelings' but a perceptive person with any experience would know the difference.

 

You are thinking dualistically above.

 

the margin of error of whether you are making it up or not is the same as you would have in your 'normal' existence. how do you know you didn't imagine hearing a song on the radio? or seeing an aeroplane fly over your house? or speaking to a person on the bus? for some people, the distinction is not easy to make. for most people, it is. i have had false communication experiences, which have helped me to tell when i'm not having one. most people don't confuse reality with fantasy and i am one of them.

 

I don't worry about whether I heard a song on the radio or if the plane is real. Songs play on the radio, and planes fly over my house. So if I see one, it is all part of normal experience and there is no reason to doubt it. I have never had a "false communication experience" that I know of. I do not feel the need to doubt reality on such a massive scale. Ironic. huge things I require evidence for, little things virtually none.

 

precisely. 'science' tells people that they can believe what there is evidence for and not what there is not evidence for. in my book, this is telling people what to believe. if 'evidence' wasn't such an arbitrary term, i might think differently.

 

I would think that you could gather from your discussion with me that the rules of evidence are anything but arbitrary.

 

And science doesn't tell people what they can or can't believe, it shows which beliefs have evidence to support them. There is a great deal of debate within science about a great many things. Gravity, for instance. But there are certain things that there is little or no debate. Whether evolution is a fact, the relationship of the Earth to the Sun, the speed of light--there are many of those things too. And you don't have to believe any of it. To doubt it would make you look silly around educated people, but there is no law against looking silly. There certainly is one in science.

 

but right now, scientific materialism defines what evidence is and then conducts only those experiments for which there is a realitic likelihood of getting some. if no evidence (according to their narrow definition) were available, the question would be something that science wouldn't touch.

 

No. A man sees a phenomenon. He has an idea of what causes that phenomenon. So, he devises an experiment in an attempt to duplicate said phenomenon. If his experiment is successful and repeatable, he claims to have figured out aforementioned phenomenon. Now, other men look at his claim and duplicate his experiment to see if he was right. They devise other experiments to see if there is more to it. Through this process of trial, error, and rejection we come up with an explanation of how things work around us.

 

You are correct, as there are things that experimental science cannot touch, but the other things can be tested using logic. Logic is a part of science. Scientific inquiry and rational thought can address virtually everything.

 

this is so self-limiting it's a really poor way to go. most scientists simply don't ask questions they don't think they can answer. i saw a televised lecture once in which a kid asked a scientist what dark matter was and was told to restict the questions to those which could be answered.

 

At that was the right answer. We don't know for sure if there even is dark matter, and if there is how to explain it. I am sure that the professor in question wanted to take up the time he had fielding questions that he could address in a meaningful way. But science can, and will answer the question of dark matter.

 

if we were talking about religious leaders doing the same thing, you would be one of the first in line to point out the flaws in that argument. the fact you defend it when you stick a scientific label on it... well, you don't need me to point out the obvious to you.

 

Your assessment of science is wrong. We certainly don't know everything, but that doesn't mean that we don't know ANYTHING. And we cannot explain dark matter at the moment. Equations show it is there (so it probably is) but beyond that we do not know anything about it.

 

We don't even have a unifying theory of gravity. Does that mean that gravity doesn't exist, or is somehow a lie? And science admits this. Scientists say, "We don't fully understand gravity." A scientist is not embarrassed or even sheepish about saying, "I don't know."

 

I would be one of the first in line to point out flaws in a scientific argument. That's what science is all about.

 

Religious leaders not only NEVER say, "I don't know," they claim to know all the answers absolutely. They think dogmatically, and circular reasoning and yet somehow claim to have the "truth."

 

I trust that you can see the difference.

[Moai]

Hello my virtual friend.

 

Right back atcha, doll!

 

I have read everything on this thread and am curious as to why you consider yourself atheist. I understand that you do not believe there is a God, but you also regularly say that you could be wrong about hell and other religious beliefs. That seems more on the lines of agnostic to me, but I don't know much about either belief (or lack of belief, whatever you want to call it.) I am only beginning to understand how the two are separate, but I am certainly intrigued and willing to hear the views of everyone.

 

Everyone everywhere is agnostic, really. Nobody knows, or can know what happens after we die, or if there is even a god at all. Religious people will tell you that they "know" there is a god, but notice that their beliefs conflict with each other about the nature of god and what happens upon death.

 

I am an atheist, because I just as certain that there is no god. However, I draw the line at saying, "there is no god so I won't listen to those who say there is." Because I appreciate free inquiry, and am open to evidence at any time. It just so happens that there isn't any, and the likelihood of their being any is close to zero. But even then, that is still a chance.

 

And I could be wrong. I have been before. I also think that on this subject the chances of that are also close to zero.

 

I identify the definitions of atheist and agnostic as follows:

 

atheist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

 

agnostic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

 

Sure. Works for me.

 

I'm just curious as to how you have made your choice because I see some of both sides in you.

 

I actually made my choice by Love Hurts' "fruit scale", in an odd way. Many years ago I caught the end of a story about a trial in Kansas where people were trying to get Creationism taught in school. I thought that the whole thing had been settled fifty years before or so. I then figured that there must be something to Creationism, so I checked it out. I believed in god at this point. I have gone from born-again believer to where I am now, by the way.

 

Anyway, what I found SHOCKED me. First, I learned that evolution is a fact and that the Theory of Evolution explains that fact. And it is one of the best, most solid, irrefutable theories we have about anything. It is really incredible. What shocked me was what a bunch of liars Creationists are! They lie, they misrepresent the opinion of biologists (they bear false witness, ironic), and they commit atrocious logical fallacies.

 

So, I began to study logical fallacies and dove into the evolution/Creation debate headlong. And over time, as Creationists would quote the Bible I became more and more familiar with it, as well as reading commentaries on the passages. Eventually, I read the Bible all the way through, and that sealed the deal. In my mind there is no way a rational, educated human being can believe that book is the word of god and be sane. But they are out there. I think that most believers haven't read the book for themselves, or have thought the concepts all the way through.

 

Of course, I have a rudimentary knowledge of other religions as well, but it is easy to see the flaws in the religion of another culture. Even Christians are adept at this, so while i am open to learning about them I am certain they are just as nutty.

 

I have no belief system of my own as of yet, I am still on my journey and acquiring the education needed to make my personal decision.

 

Thank you, kindly, for your attention.

 

You're welcome, and inquiry is what it is all about. Always remember, a little evidence is better than a lot of faith.

[Moai]

Moai... do me a favor in post #271 you look up all those scriptures list and present them and then we will go from there... I am not shrugging just have much to do....

It would help us both as we study the word of God.

 

 

God Bless*

 

I would be happy to. It will take me a while, but I am on it right now.

[Moai]

I got through the first three quotes and QUIT… you are taking words out of context and enjoying every moment of it.

 

Red herring. Why is it when your quotes jump from Revelation to John to Mark to Acts it is all fine, but I post a few passages and I am taking things out of context? All you need to do is show what the proper context is and we can go from there, if you like. You cannot deny that the Bible says that, right?

 

Rather than use it to gain you enjoy using it to folly. So be it.

Now just stop here dear soul and evaluate you!

 

Do you seek to find Christ EARNESTLY or is your mission in life to condemn Christ?

 

You know the answer in you heart.

 

At first it was to find Christ earnestly, and then when I realized there was nothing to find I stopped. That doesn't mean I have forgotten Christian doctrine, or what I have read, of course.

 

I'm not using it for "folly" either. The book is either true and makes sense or it is false and it doesn't. There are a great many passages that don't make sense in relation to the others, as well as passages that flat-out contradict one another. If you don't think that is the case, I am all ears and would love to read your commentary.

 

If you hate God and seek to lead others astray; and are adamant to mock God at every turn. Why are you here?

 

I don't hate God, as I can't hate that which doesn't exist. And I am here for the same reason you are. The OP mentioned having a crisis of faith. She asked for opinions, and I gave her mine, and here we are. There are others reading the thread as well, and as we discuss the issue I am sure they are making up their own minds about things.

 

I appreciate that in your view that I am leading people astray, but in my opinion I am showing them what a rational, fair assessment about what the Bible says looks like, as well as what many of the thousands of opinions on scripture mean.

 

I also hope to show that you can have joy, wonder and love in your life and not be a theist, and also that morality does not come from the Bible--but we haven't touched on that yet.

 

So I am here for the same reason you are. Winning souls for the truth.

 

I have a strong sense you don’t strive to seek God. As per say a lost soul.. but a mocker one of Satan; and Satan job is to pull down Christianity… have you read what a Satanist is?

 

Yea, I know what a Satanist is. If Christianity is true, Satan's job is impossible, and since I am not Satan nor do I believe in him that should make your job as a defender of faith that much easier.

 

I have sought god, and could not find him. I read your manual, he is not there.

 

Sorry to say you fit the pic my friend. Google Satanist and see what the main job of a Satanist is:

 

It is to demise Christ, Christians and the word of God.

 

Oh, I'm sure. That is cult-think, though. Anyone who disagrees is evil and there is no sense talking to them. Come back over here with us and let's all reinforce our belief system.

 

I am not using anything but the Bible and common sense, by the way. If the bible is the word of God, how can Satan use it against Christ?

 

So WHO ARE YOU Moai… and who do you work for?

 

I cant buy "Im ignorant" any more .... this is much more! You are the adversary of Christ!

 

I never said that I am ignorant. Far from it. I would hazard a guess that I know the Bible better than you do, I just don't believe it.

 

Cecily-Satanism

I'm a Christian, not by anything that I have done, but by everything that Jesus has done. His love He showed for me by dying on the cross. His endless grace by forgiving my sins, my past, everything that I was before Knew Him.

 

Before I was a Christian, I was a Satanist.

[COLOR=#800080]Cecily-Satanism[/COLOR]

 

[COLOR=#800080]Satanist Test[/COLOR]

 

[COLOR=#800080]Cults Of Witchcraft[/COLOR]

 

 

If there was a link in there, it didn't work. I am just as skeptical of someone who says they are a Satanist. It all comes from the same book, which I do not believe is true. There is no god, there is no Satan.

 

Many people are completely ignorant of the fact that there are those who worship Satan. Even among those (Christian or secular) who know about them there is a great deal of confusion as to just what it is to be a Satanist. We shouldn't feel bad - there is even MORE confusion about what a Satanist is among Satanists. One reason for this is that "Satanism" is such a broad term. There are several groups which call themselves "Satanists."

 

Yep. Satanists have different sects, just like Christians do. Nowhere near as many, but they are out there. Notice that no matter which side you are on, nobody can agree on what to believe when reading it--save for atheists like me, which is none of it. I don't think that anyone is ignorant to the fact that some people worship Satan, given the way the media is.

 

There are also many groups which call themselves "witches" and "occultists" who are not necessarily Satanic or Antichristian. (These are Wiccan, Pagans, Druids and the various "majick" enthusiasts. For more information on them please visit my RESPONSE to PAGANS link or my online book, THE SWORD.)

 

Yeah, and there are whole other religions, too, like Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism--shall I go on?

 

Here is a list of the different groups that call themselves Satanists:

 

1.he Maralyn Manson clones who walk around wearing black and just acting mad at the world.

2. People who play occultic role playing games and get a little too excited about Satan.

3. Dabblers in the occult and satanism who just think it's cool way to be a rebel.

4. Some Pagans who worship the darker gods or "dieties" and practice black majic for fun.

5. Organized people (mostly in other countries) who do practice voodoo, Santaria or other openly and self-proclaimed demonic arts.

6. Anton LeVay's group that worships the "Satan concept" (self-worship), his Satanic Bible and national Church.

7. People who are independent and self-styled satanists. They participate in various rituals, do research and even form small covens.

8. Actual antichristian groups who form large, militant covens and use their resources in an attempt to thwart the work of Christ.

9. Underground satanic confederations and larger international associations formed as enemies of the Christian Church. The highest level of leadership includes multi-generational groups.

 

You forgot black metal bands who burn churches down in Norway.

 

There are testimonies of people who have been delivered from involvement in each of the levels listed above. I have personally met representatives of each of these nine groups. All of these groups are spoken of or dealt with in the Bible. I will present a more detailed description of what the Bible teaches about them in my online book THE SWORD. (listed below) Here are some informative links dealing with Satanism:

 

 

[COLOR=#800080]Christian links about Satanism[/COLOR]

 

The greatest work of a Satanist is to destroy Christ and Christanity.

 

Which by definition should be impossible. I wish those links worked. I would love to read "The Sword."

 

Can you relate to any of this my friend?

You do not for Christ... Who do you work for?

God Bless*

 

Maybe in your mind I am working for Satan. I don't think that I am, since as I said I don't think that he exists, but oh well.

 

It could be that I am working for Christ. I am here discussing this with you, allowing you to give the True and Correct interpretation of the Bible, and possibly win souls for the Lord. Isn't that a good thing?

 

Also, I am not hateful. It isn't like I hate Christians or think Christians are by definition morons or anything. I do think they are misguided, as you think I am (well, you think I represent Satan which is a bit harsh, but it doesn't bother me.) You are one of the most outspoken believers who visit these boards, and I for one am interested to learn what your thoughts are as we discuss these things. Given the number of views of this thread, that feeling is shared by many.

 

Shall we continue? You have nothing to lose, and souls to win...

[riobikini]

Astounding thread!

 

One of the best I've followed on LS, thus far.

 

Keep talking -all of you!

 

-Rio

[Moai]

A quick thought before I start transcribing the Bible here:

 

Does the Satanist thing surprise you? Isn't that what is supposed to happen?

 

Revelation is nothing but a prophecy about the end of the World, and it says that almost everyone is going to believe in Satan at some point--except for believers now, who will enjoy the Rapture. A small number of people will come to Christ after the Rapture and be persecuted, I haven't forgotten that part.

 

So it should be no shock that Satan is out there right now recruiting followers. Moreover, since people have free will, they are free to choose to follow him, if they want, right?

[Island Girl]

Predestination does not mean God decided from the foundations of the world I will create this one for Heaven and this one for Hell.

 

LH

 

That is NOT what the bible says.

 

Here you go:

 

Romans 8

 

8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

2 Timothy 1

 

1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

Ephesians 1

 

1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

 

1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

Romans 9

 

9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

 

9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

 

9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

 

9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

 

9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

 

9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

 

9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 

9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

 

 

These passages clearly state God predetermines who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell.

That is predestination.

 

 

Looking forward to you answers to this LH.

[lonelybird]

:laugh:

I will look up where you pick out these passages, and try to tell what I understand about them. I hope a scholar here

 

If you cut passages from a whole article, we all know what the "new thing" become

[lonelybird]

Moai

Where did you pick up the verses? Ecclesiastes which chapter which verse?

[Love Hurts]

LH

 

That is NOT what the bible says.

 

Here you go:

 

Romans 8

 

8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

2 Timothy 1

 

1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

Ephesians 1

 

1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

 

1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

Romans 9

 

9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

 

9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

 

9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

 

9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

 

9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

 

9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

 

9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 

9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

 

 

These passages clearly state God predetermines who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell.

That is predestination.

 

 

Looking forward to you answers to this LH.

 

And that could be you in the list. What do you say? Are you in the list or not?

 

I claimed Christ as my Lord... I am on the list... my name is in the Lambs Book of Life. I did that.. ME of my own free will. I called on Jesus to save me. I love Jesus and believe in Him. HIs word is true. His judgments righteous and fair.

Who’s is your God or god?

[Moai]

:laugh:

I will look up where you pick out these passages, and try to tell what I understand about them. I hope a scholar here

 

If you cut passages from a whole article, we all know what the "new thing" become

 

Please do look them up. That's why I put the chapter and verse there.

 

You have the Power of the Holy Spirit to help you, who should be the best scholar there is--seeing as how it is the Holy Spirit who inspired it in the first place, right?

 

Again, I find it interesting that when a believer quotes scripture, it is all fine and perfect, but when someone who is honest about doubting scripture does the same, he is taking quotes out of context.

 

The Bible says what it says. If I am taking something out of context at any time, please do explain what the proper context is, as claims such as those require evidence as well.

 

I have seen believers in church, and in restaurants even. highlighting passages in the Bible. The pastor says, "Read this, now go three pages back and read this, no go fifteen books forward and read that" and all the while the passages are highlighted. Soon, one need not read the whole Bible, but only the passages that are highlighted. The pastor and believer have done a great job of making the Bible say what they want it to, and ignoring what it actually says.

 

How else can you explain all the televangelists now who promise wealth to their followers when Jesus was explicit about abandoning your possessions?

 

More on that later...

[lonelybird]

LH

 

That is NOT what the bible says.

 

Here you go:

 

Romans 8

 

8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

2 Timothy 1

 

1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

Ephesians 1

 

1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

 

1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

Romans 9

 

9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

 

9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

 

9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

 

9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

 

9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

 

9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

 

9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 

9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

 

 

These passages clearly state God predetermines who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell.

That is predestination.

 

 

Looking forward to you answers to this LH.

Why do you stuck on predestination? You think if a person are destined to hell, then no matter what efforts he make, he will go to hell? so he don't have to choose and make effort? Do you mean this? sounds to like exuses

[Love Hurts]

I got through the first three quotes and QUIT… you are taking words out of context and enjoying every moment of it.

 

Rather than use it to gain you enjoy using it to folly. So be it.

Now just stop here dear soul and evaluate you!

 

Do you seek to find Christ EARNESTLY or is your mission in life to condemn Christ?

 

You know the answer in you heart.

 

If you hate God and seek to lead others astray; and are adamant to mock God at every turn. Why are you here?

 

I have a strong sense you don’t strive to seek God. As per say a lost soul.. but a mocker one of Satan; and Satan job is to pull down Christianity… have you read what a Satanist is?

 

Sorry to say you fit the pic my friend. Google Satanist and see what the main job of a Satanist is:

 

It is to demise Christ, Christians and the word of God.

 

So WHO ARE YOU Moai… and who do you work for?

 

I cant buy "Im ignorant" any more .... this is much more! You are the adversary of Christ!

 

Cecily-Satanism

I'm a Christian, not by anything that I have done, but by everything that Jesus has done. His love He showed for me by dying on the cross. His endless grace by forgiving my sins, my past, everything that I was before Knew Him.

 

Before I was a Christian, I was a Satanist.

[COLOR=#800080]Cecily-Satanism[/COLOR]

 

[COLOR=#800080]Satanist Test[/COLOR]

 

[COLOR=#800080]Cults Of Witchcraft[/COLOR]

 

 

Many people are completely ignorant of the fact that there are those who worship Satan. Even among those (Christian or secular) who know about them there is a great deal of confusion as to just what it is to be a Satanist. We shouldn't feel bad - there is even MORE confusion about what a Satanist is among Satanists. One reason for this is that "Satanism" is such a broad term. There are several groups which call themselves "Satanists."

 

There are also many groups which call themselves "witches" and "occultists" who are not necessarily Satanic or Antichristian. (These are Wiccan, Pagans, Druids and the various "majick" enthusiasts. For more information on them please visit my RESPONSE to PAGANS link or my online book, THE SWORD.)

 

Here is a list of the different groups that call themselves Satanists:

 

1.he Maralyn Manson clones who walk around wearing black and just acting mad at the world.

2. People who play occultic role playing games and get a little too excited about Satan.

3. Dabblers in the occult and satanism who just think it's cool way to be a rebel.

4. Some Pagans who worship the darker gods or "dieties" and practice black majic for fun.

5. Organized people (mostly in other countries) who do practice voodoo, Santaria or other openly and self-proclaimed demonic arts.

6. Anton LeVay's group that worships the "Satan concept" (self-worship), his Satanic Bible and national Church.

7. People who are independent and self-styled satanists. They participate in various rituals, do research and even form small covens.

8. Actual antichristian groups who form large, militant covens and use their resources in an attempt to thwart the work of Christ.

9. Underground satanic confederations and larger international associations formed as enemies of the Christian Church. The highest level of leadership includes multi-generational groups.

 

There are testimonies of people who have been delivered from involvement in each of the levels listed above. I have personally met representatives of each of these nine groups. All of these groups are spoken of or dealt with in the Bible. I will present a more detailed description of what the Bible teaches about them in my online book THE SWORD. (listed below) Here are some informative links dealing with Satanism:

 

 

[COLOR=#800080]Christian links about Satanism[/COLOR]

 

The greatest work of a Satanist is to destroy Christ and Christanity.

 

Can you relate to any of this my friend?

You do not for Christ... Who do you work for?

God Bless*

 

 

These links work from my end.......I'll try again.

 

http://www.spiritualcuriosity.com/curiosity/cecily-satanism.htm

 

 

http://jesus-messiah.com/wcraft/satanist-test.html

 

 

 

http://www.jesus-messiah.com/wcraft/wcraft.html

 

 

 

http://members.tripod.com/~bridgeh725/response3.html

 

 

I hope they open try again.

 

God Bless*

[Moai]

Moai

Where did you pick up the verses? Ecclesiastes which chapter which verse?

 

 

Oops! It is Ecclesiastes 3:18-22.

 

Here's one of my favorites:

 

Ecclesiastes 3:12 I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life, 3:13 And also that every man should eat and drink and enjoy the good of all his labor, it is the gift of God.

 

So God says "Eat, drink and be merry!" He's pretty cool after all...

[Love Hurts]

LH

 

That is NOT what the bible says.

 

Here you go:

 

Romans 8

 

8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

2 Timothy 1

 

1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

Ephesians 1

 

1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

 

1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

Romans 9

 

9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

 

9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

 

9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

 

9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

 

9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

 

9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

 

9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 

9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

 

 

These passages clearly state God predetermines who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell.

That is predestination.

 

 

Looking forward to you answers to this LH.

 

 

Ok my friend one day at a time…lets do it.

Give ourselves time and not too much. Ok.

God Bless*