Lost my faith, might find it again...but might not

[lonelybird]

Please do look them up. That's why I put the chapter and verse there.

 

You have the Power of the Holy Spirit to help you, who should be the best scholar there is--seeing as how it is the Holy Spirit who inspired it in the first place, right?

 

Again, I find it interesting that when a believer quotes scripture, it is all fine and perfect, but when someone who is honest about doubting scripture does the same, he is taking quotes out of context.

 

The Bible says what it says. If I am taking something out of context at any time, please do explain what the proper context is, as claims such as those require evidence as well.

 

I have seen believers in church, and in restaurants even. highlighting passages in the Bible. The pastor says, "Read this, now go three pages back and read this, no go fifteen books forward and read that" and all the while the passages are highlighted. Soon, one need not read the whole Bible, but only the passages that are highlighted. The pastor and believer have done a great job of making the Bible say what they want it to, and ignoring what it actually says.

 

How else can you explain all the televangelists now who promise wealth to their followers when Jesus was explicit about abandoning your possessions?

 

More on that later...

I don't know why all you are so anger toward us. yes, I didn't find the quote, you did not write which chapter. PLEASE bring up any quotes you want to

[Love Hurts]

Oops! It is Ecclesiastes 3:18-22.

 

Here's one of my favorites:

 

Ecclesiastes 3:12 I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life, 3:13 And also that every man should eat and drink and enjoy the good of all his labor, it is the gift of God.

 

So God says "Eat, drink and be merry!" He's pretty cool after all...

 

I happened to notice this is…one of my favs……….you know we are to delight in the gifts of our precious Lord. Recall He did not put Adam and Eve in a mount of cow dung.

 

But instead a Garden of Eden … lovely floral delight and fragrance……… teaming with waterfalls and streaming brooks and sweet animals to give company ……… as we can imagine a garden of beauty and then we cannot imagine it as we are not God.

 

But it must have been so beautiful for them…and then they were cast out

due to sin.

 

God does want the best for us even still; as we are to enjoy the fruits of our labor. We take vacations an enjoy a relaxing breaks from and Praise Jesus He is good as we see His majesty in creation on earth its all good.

 

God made you for good and for good things not for evil and cow dung.

 

Eat drink and be merry is of a man in mockery; get it right.

[Island Girl]

Why do you stuck on predestination? You think if a person are destined to hell, then no matter what efforts he make, he will go to hell? so he don't have to choose and make effort? Do you mean this? sounds to like exuses

 

Stuck? It is a point that is being debated - asked about - explained - what have you.

 

The bible passages clearly say God has decided before we were even born where we will go and it doesn't have anything with what we do while we are here either. God says He already knows who will go where, who He will have mercy on and whom He will not.

 

Those are the passages I quoted the bible directly.

 

You should be familiar with the passages if you have in fact read the entire bible. But if you have just highlighted it in church or in bible study you may have never touched on those I posted. If you are not familiar with these particular passages - feel free to look them up.

 

Predestination is continuing from previous posts in within the last page or so addressing a post the LH made to another.

 

Do you find it difficult to follow? Sometimes the messages are interchanged as replies go back and forth between others.

[Moai]

I don't know why all you are so anger toward us. yes, I didn't find the quote, you did not write which chapter. PLEASE bring up any quotes you want to

 

I didn't realize I didn't include it, but I think I have since. It is Ecclesiastes 3:18 and on, by the way.

 

And I am not angry, there is no reason for me to be angry. I was just making an observation about the whole "out of context" business.

 

I await your response!

[Moai]

I happened to notice this is…one of my favs……….you know we are to delight in the gifts of our precious Lord. Recall He did not put Adam and Eve in a mount of cow dung.

 

No, he didn't. Of course, we aren't in the Garden anymore either, are we? I do think that the Earth is still a pretty amazing place though.

 

But instead a Garden of Eden … lovely floral delight and fragrance……… teaming with waterfalls and streaming brooks and sweet animals to give company ……… as we can imagine a garden of beauty and then we cannot imagine it as we are not God.

 

I can certainly imagine but that is another thread.

 

But it must have been so beautiful for them…and then they were cast out

due to sin.

 

God does want the best for us even still; as we are to enjoy the fruits of our labor. We take vacations an enjoy a relaxing breaks from and Praise Jesus He is good as we see His majesty in creation on earth its all good.

 

God made you for good and for good things not for evil and cow dung.

 

Eat drink and be merry is of a man in mockery; get it right.

 

I don't follow. The passage is about all men, everywhere. Not of a man in "mockery" which doesn't really make sense in English.

 

I recall in a previous post you suggested sarcastically, I think, that we should just eat drink and be merry, huh? And then went on to describe how that was a bad idea.

 

But here is God telling me to do just that. By your own admission I should listen to God and not people, so I am going to listen to God in this instance. Unless, of course, you can show me where this refers to a man in "mockery"--and what that means as well.

[Outcast777]

Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply.

[Love Hurts]

I happened to notice this is…one of my favs……….you know we are to delight in the gifts of our precious Lord. Recall He did not put Adam and Eve in a mount of cow dung.

 

But instead a Garden of Eden … lovely floral delight and fragrance……… teaming with waterfalls and streaming brooks and sweet animals to give company ……… as we can imagine a garden of beauty and then we cannot imagine it as we are not God.

 

But it must have been so beautiful for them…and then they were cast out

due to sin.

 

God does want the best for us even still; as we are to enjoy the fruits of our labor. We take vacations an enjoy a relaxing breaks from and Praise Jesus He is good as we see His majesty in creation on earth its all good.

 

God made you for good and for good things not for evil and cow dung.

 

Eat drink and be merry is of a man in mockery; get it right.

 

 

The Parable of the Rich Fool....Luke 12:13

 

And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me.

14 And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?

15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:

17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?

18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.

19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.

20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy [1] soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

 

God gives good things but seek first the Kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you.

[Moai]

Oh, and one more thing: Adam and Eve were not cast out because of sin.

 

They were cast out lest they eat from the tree of life and then become immortal.

 

I quote:

 

3:22 And the Lord God said, “Now [/url]that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil, he must not be allowed to stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

 

Early church fathers argued as to whether sin was transmitted through this (Original Sin) or if only death was. Look up Socianism.

 

As usual, the belief that most espouse is really a great deal more complex and isn't as cut and dried as they think.

 

My point, though, is that God doesn't use the term "sin" there as a reason to kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden; rather, it was to prevent us from becoming immortal.

[Love Hurts]

Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply.

 

HI how are you? What are you saying? Like daaa lost here!

[Moai]

The Parable of the Rich Fool....Luke 12:13

 

And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me.

14 And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?

15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:

17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?

18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.

19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.

20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy [1] soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

 

God gives good things but seek first the Kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you.

 

And yet again, the Bible conflicts. The passage I quoted is from Ecclesiastes, in the Old Testament. You quoted Jesus, from the New. And that's great!

 

Why does Jesus contradict the writer of Ecclesiastes?

 

In Ecclesiastes, scripture is clear that there is nothing to store up for, there is no afterlife. Now Jesus says that yes, in fact, there is. Is the rich man a fool because he followed the Old Testament?

[Love Hurts]

Oh, and one more thing: Adam and Eve were not cast out because of sin..

Eat from any tree but ... So says God and you eat from the but tree!

 

Its definitely sin… ask Satan he was there..

[Moai]

Eat from any tree but ... So says God and you eat from the but tree!

 

Its definitely sin… ask Satan he was there..

 

It was a mistake, obviously, but God didn't call it a sin.

 

You raise interesting questions:

 

Why was the tree there in the first place? If God, who is much smarter than Adam, didn't want him to eat from it why did He put it in the Garden?

 

God is smarter than me. If I don't want my kid to drink bleach, I put it where he can't get at it. Common sense.

 

There was no death in the Garden of Eden up to that time. Yet God says, "Do not eat from this tree, or that shalt surely die." What kind of warning is that, if Adam had no idea what death was?

 

Adam had no knowledge of good and evil. Yet he is supposed to understand "eating fruit=evil"?

 

BUt I digress. I will now write up all the passages I mentioned in post #271.

[lonelybird]

Stuck? It is a point that is being debated - asked about - explained - what have you.

 

The bible passages clearly say God has decided before we were even born where we will go and it doesn't have anything with what we do while we are here either. God says He already knows who will go where, who He will have mercy on and whom He will not.

 

Those are the passages I quoted the bible directly.

 

You should be familiar with the passages if you have in fact read the entire bible. But if you have just highlighted it in church or in bible study you may have never touched on those I posted. If you are not familiar with these particular passages - feel free to look them up.

 

Predestination is continuing from previous posts in within the last page or so addressing a post the LH made to another.

 

Do you find it difficult to follow? Sometimes the messages are interchanged as replies go back and forth between others.

Here, here, I find a story from Bible, great FAITH can save you:D

 

A Canaanite woman who lived in that region came to him. "Son of David!" she cried out. "Have mercy on me, sir! My daughter has a demon and is in a terrible condition."

15:23 But Jesus did not say a word to her. His disciples came to him and begged him, "Send her away! She is following us and making all this noise!"

15:24 Then Jesus replied, "I have been sent only to the lost sheep of the people of Israel."

15:25 At this the woman came and fell at his feet. "Help me, sir!" she said.

15:26 Jesus answered, "It isn't right to take the children's food and throw it to the dogs."

15:27 "That's true, sir," she answered, "but even the dogs eat the leftovers that fall from their masters' table."

15:28 So Jesus answered her, "You are a woman of great faith! What you want will be done for you." And at that very moment her daughter was healed.

[lonelybird]

Oops! It is Ecclesiastes 3:18-22.

 

Here's one of my favorites:

 

Ecclesiastes 3:12 I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life, 3:13 And also that every man should eat and drink and enjoy the good of all his labor, it is the gift of God.

 

So God says "Eat, drink and be merry!" He's pretty cool after all...

Um, I see the whole verse. The meaning of whole verse is that all is vanity But God; the things people pursue in the earth is like pursuing wind.

Seems you did this:

People do bad thing (no, in the end perish) --- People do good thing (in the end in the earth perish as well) --- so drink, eat, enjoy work (vanity) --- women (vantiy) ---IN THE END only God is true

 

and this is a thinking progress of a wise man. and you cut only one part the middle process, and did not see his conclusion. how fun is that?

[lonelybird]

And yet again, the Bible conflicts. The passage I quoted is from Ecclesiastes, in the Old Testament. You quoted Jesus, from the New. And that's great!

 

Why does Jesus contradict the writer of Ecclesiastes?

 

In Ecclesiastes, scripture is clear that there is nothing to store up for, there is no afterlife. Now Jesus says that yes, in fact, there is. Is the rich man a fool because he followed the Old Testament?

Jesus didnot contradict the writer of Ecclesiastes. just look above my post. You didn't read the end chaper of Ecclesiastes. You just pick it up as your will and chose to miss out the most important part the writer intented to say

[lonelybird]

May I quote Jesus?

 

Matthew 19:16-18 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

Jesus knew this man before they talked each other. Jesus knew this man was a rich man, and knew the man love money which is a factor to hinder him to have eternal life. So Jesus tested him to see if he choose the money or kingdom. Here we come around again:D , free will.

Paul is mainly the one who says saved by faith, while Jesus clearly says above you are saved through works. Do we believe Jesus or Paul? Or neither?

 

 

 

Well, I don't have Jesus in my soul and I am happy doing good works. Secondly, while there are passages in the New Testament that suggest a "new" covenant, that has its own issues with Biblical prophecy and errancy which I have touched on before. I would be happy to reiterate that if you (or anyone else) wish

Jesus said many things, shouldn't we look all of them as a whole message?

Matthew 7:21: "Not everyone who calls me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father in heaven.

Mark 4:17 Other people are like the seeds that fall on rocky ground. As soon as they hear the message, they receive it gladly.

4:17 But it does not sink deep into them, and they don't last long. So when trouble or persecution comes because of the message, they give up at once.

4:18 Other people are like the seeds sown among the thorn bushes. These are the ones who hear the message,

4:19 but the worries about this life, the love for riches, and all other kinds of desires crowd in and choke the message, and they don't bear fruit.

4:20 But other people are like seeds sown in good soil. They hear the message, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirty, some sixty, and some one hundred."

John 3:3 Jesus answered, "I am telling you the truth: no one can see the Kingdom of God without being born again."

3:5 "I am telling you the truth," replied Jesus, "that no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.

3:6 A person is born physically of human parents, but is born spiritually of the Spirit.

3:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life.

3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to be its judge, but to be its savior.

3:18 Those who believe in the Son are not judged; but those who do not believe have already been judged, because they have not believed in God's only Son.

3:19 This is how the judgment works: the light has come into the world, but people love the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds are evil.

3:20 Those who do evil things hate the light and will not come to the light, because they do not want their evil deeds to be shown up.

3:21 But those who do what is true come to the light in order that the light may show that what they did was in obedience to God

Nor does the Father himself judge anyone. He has given his Son the full right to judge,

5:23 so that all will honor the Son in the same way as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

5:24 "I am telling you the truth: those who hear my words and believe in him who sent me have eternal life. They will not be judged, but have already passed from death to life.

5:25 I am telling you the truth: the time is coming-the time has already come-when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will come to life.

5:26 Just as the Father is himself the source of life, in the same way he has made his Son to be the source of life.

[Love Hurts]

And yet again, the Bible conflicts. The passage I quoted is from Ecclesiastes, in the Old Testament. You quoted Jesus, from the New. And that's great!

 

Why does Jesus contradict the writer of Ecclesiastes?

 

In Ecclesiastes, scripture is clear that there is nothing to store up for, there is no afterlife. Now Jesus says that yes, in fact, there is. Is the rich man a fool because he followed the Old Testament?

 

The rich man lays up treasures upon earth and thinks not of storing up treasure in heaven.

Ones eternal destination is more important than earth... earth is a passing through. Many do not care.

[Love Hurts]

It was a mistake, obviously, but God didn't call it a sin.

 

You raise interesting questions:

 

Why was the tree there in the first place? If God, who is much smarter than Adam, didn't want him to eat from it why did He put it in the Garden?

 

God is smarter than me. If I don't want my kid to drink bleach, I put it where he can't get at it. Common sense.

 

There was no death in the Garden of Eden up to that time. Yet God says, "Do not eat from this tree, or that shalt surely die." What kind of warning is that, if Adam had no idea what death was?

 

Adam had no knowledge of good and evil. Yet he is supposed to understand "eating fruit=evil"?

 

BUt I digress. I will now write up all the passages I mentioned in post #271.

 

God is dealing with adult minds obviously not children. He expects adult behavior.

 

He made a request and lets see what man does.

[God knew in advance]

 

So here comes temptation and man falls he eats of the forbidden fruit.

God knew but did man know he was capable of such failure?

 

We must recall, God is not being tested we are.

We are the ones that must know how low we can go and not.

 

The sin of the world came from that act. Yes it was sin.

 

And the curse of sin was upon mankind from that moment on.

Adam was created without sin…and still he fell into temptation.

 

Mankind is under the curse of sin due to the fall of Adam.

It was a sin that is our curse today.

If it were not a sin... then why are we in sin due to Adam?

If it were not a sin... then we would have not sin.

[Moai]

Um, I see the whole verse. The meaning of whole verse is that all is vanity But God; the things people pursue in the earth is like pursuing wind.

Seems you did this:

People do bad thing (no, in the end perish) --- People do good thing (in the end in the earth perish as well) --- so drink, eat, enjoy work (vanity) --- women (vantiy) ---IN THE END only God is true

 

and this is a thinking progress of a wise man. and you cut only one part the middle process, and did not see his conclusion. how fun is that?

 

Incorrect. In point of fact, you are imagining meaning that is not there. Here is the entire passage, from http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Ecc&chapter=3 The commentary above each passage is theirs, not mine. Note, this site is run by Believers:

 

A Time for All Events in Life

3:1 For everything 1 there is an appointed time, 2

and an appropriate time 3 for every activity 4 on earth: 5

3:2 A time to be born, 6 and a time to die; 7

a time to plant, and a time to uproot what was planted;

3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal;

a time to break down, and a time to build up;

3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh;

a time to mourn, and a time to dance.

3:5 A time to throw away stones, and a time to gather stones;

a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

3:6 A time to search, and a time to give something up as lost; 8

a time to keep, and a time to throw away;

3:7 A time to rip, and a time to sew;

a time to keep silent, and a time to speak.

3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate;

a time for war, and a time for peace.

 

 

Man is Ignorant of God’s Timing

3:9 What benefit can a worker 9 gain from his toil? 10

3:10 I have observed the burden

that God has given to people 11 to keep them occupied.

3:11 God has made everything fit beautifully 12 in its appropriate time,

but 13 he has also placed ignorance 14 in the human heart 15

so that 16 people 17 cannot discover what God has ordained, 18

from the beginning to the end 19 of their lives. 20

 

 

Enjoy Life in the Present

3:12 I have concluded 21 that there is nothing better for people 22

than 23 to be happy and to enjoy

themselves 24 as long as they live,

3:13 and also that everyone should eat and drink, and find enjoyment in all his toil,

for these things 25 are a gift from God.

 

 

God’s Sovereignty

3:14 I also know that whatever God does will endure forever;

nothing can be added to it, and nothing taken away from it.

God has made it this way, so that men will fear him.

3:15 Whatever exists now has already been, and whatever will be has already been;

for God will seek to do again 26 what has occurred 27 in the past. 28

[/url]

The Problem of Injustice and Oppression

3:16 I saw something else on earth: 29

In the place of justice, there was wickedness,

and in the place of fairness, 30 there was wickedness.

3:17 I thought to myself, “God will judge both the righteous and the wicked;

for there is an appropriate time for every activity,

and there is a time of judgment 31 for every deed.

3:18 I also thought to myself, “It is 32 for the sake of people, 33

so God can clearly 34 show 35 them that they are like animals.

3:19 For the fate of humans 36 and the fate of animals are the same:

As one dies, so dies the other; both have the same breath.

There is no advantage for humans over animals,

for both are fleeting.

3:20 Both go to the same place,

both come from the dust,

and to dust both return.

3:21 Who really knows if the human spirit 37 ascends upward,

and the animal’s spirit descends into the earth?

3:22 So I perceived there is nothing better than for people 38 to enjoy their work, 39

because that is their 40 reward;

for who can show them what the future holds?

 

The verse says nothing about all being vanity except God. In point of fact, it says that God is in control, that you may not know it all the time because you are ignorant of it, so relax and enjoy the here and now because nobody knows what the future holds.

 

I am using a different version than I used originally, but the meaning is the same:

 

3:12 I have concluded 21 that there is nothing better for people 22

than 23 to be happy and to enjoy

themselves 24 as long as they live,

3:13 and also that everyone should eat and drink, and find enjoyment in all his toil,

for these things 25 are a gift from God.

 

 

 

The context of this passage clearly does not change the meaning of it. What it says is actually quite plain.

 

 

 

So is the next, which says that the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same. THE SAME.

 

Can animals become born-again? I don't think so. Since animals cannot be born again, and my fate as a human is exactly the same as an animal, I need not be born-again either.

 

The parable of the rich fool, from Luke 12:13 would seem to contradict this. It is contained in a post above. Which is right? All of the Bible is inspired by God. It is His book. Yet these two ideas are mutually exclusive--either I must sell my possessions and build treasure in Heaven, or I should just not worry about it and have the best time I can have while I am alive, as that is all there is. Nobody can tell you what happens after you die, so who cares?

 

 

I think it obvious that you think the latter is correct. Why do you choose Luke over Ecclesiastes?

 

One thing I didn't think of before is that right here the author (presumably the Holy Spirit working through somebody) says very plainly that nobody knows what happens when you die, and yet Jesus claims that he does know. It doesn't say, "except for Jesus, who will be here shortly" or even "maybe someday people will know" it says NOBODY KNOWS. And, since the scripture is alive, meaning it means now what it meant then, nobody knows, or has known. Ever. Unless you want to suggest that the meaning of the Bible changes with time (but I don't think that you do.)

 

 

 

By the way--the little numbers are references to what the word was in the original text, they are links on the Bible page but obviously don't work here, and it is a pain to delete them.

 

Here's the last part of Ecclesiastes:

 

12:11 The words of the sages are like prods, 37

and the collected sayings are like firmly fixed nails;

they are given by one shepherd.

 

 

Concluding Exhortation: Fear God and Obey His Commands!

12:12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. 38

There is no end to the making 39 of many books,

and much study is exhausting to the body. 40

12:13 Having heard everything, I have reached this conclusion: 41

Fear God and keep his commandments,

because this is the whole duty 42 of man.

12:14 For God will evaluate every deed, 43

including every secret thing, whether good or evil.

 

Yep. Nothing about being born-again there, either. Ecclesiastes is really rather nihilistic, actually.

 

The whole chapter means be as happy as you can as long as you can, but don't forget the times in life that were difficult, because the end is certain and final.

[Moai]

Jesus didnot contradict the writer of Ecclesiastes. just look above my post. You didn't read the end chaper of Ecclesiastes. You just pick it up as your will and chose to miss out the most important part the writer intented to say

 

No, I didn't, but thank you for reiterating.

 

The point, which I think the entire book of Ecclesiastes demonstrates, is that nobody knows what will happen when you die, that your end is certain and final (you are alive, so by definition you are going to die) and that God will judge you based on your works. I do enjoy the part about everything being impermanent, actually--you know, all the vanity stuff.

 

Does that about sum it up?

[lonelybird]

Concluding Exhortation: Fear God and Obey His Commands!

12:12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. 38

There is no end to the making 39 of many books,

and much study is exhausting to the body. 40

12:13 Having heard everything, I have reached this conclusion: 41

Fear God and keep his commandments,

because this is the whole duty 42 of man.

12:14 For God will evaluate every deed, 43

including every secret thing, whether good or evil.

 

See for yourself. conclusion is above. and you picked middle process

[lonelybird]

another thing. this article was written long before Jesus Christ came to earth. God is living. there are time pre-Jesus and after-Jesus. and ALL of us belong to after-Jesus time, not pre-Jesus time, I mean you, me, mordern people...

[Moai]

God is dealing with adult minds obviously not children. He expects adult behavior.

 

Incorrect. One of the qualities that adults have that children do not is knowing right from wrong. That is why we have to teach children such things. The text is clear that they did not know right from wrong (good from evil) before eating the fruit, since the fruit imparted that ability to them. Adam and Eve had adult bodies but the brains of a young child.

 

He made a request and lets see what man does.

[God knew in advance]

 

So here comes temptation and man falls he eats of the forbidden fruit.

God knew but did man know he was capable of such failure?

 

We must recall, God is not being tested we are.

We are the ones that must know how low we can go and not.

 

Ok, I'll try to explain it yet again: If God knew in advance, it is no test at all. There's no "let's see what happens" it's "watch this" because He knows what happens. He knew He would create Adam, He knew Adam would fail, and He knew He would punish Him (and all of us, too.)

 

What that amounts to is, "I am going to create something that I can punish."

 

Man falls for temptation, which God knew full well He would do. How can a being who is perfect and all-good and all-loving create another being and set it up specifically to fail? What possible point could there be to that? For God to do this to men it is like mean middle school kids picking on the retarded kid.

 

The sin of the world came from that act. Yes it was sin.

 

And the curse of sin was upon mankind from that moment on.

Adam was created without sin…and still he fell into temptation.

 

How can a sinless being commit sin? Isn't temptation coveting, which is a sin itself? If Adam can be tempted, he covets, and if he coveted, he was not sinless.

 

Here again, God punishes the innocent along with the guilty, as animals didn't do anything but there they are, dying and eating each other and starving. They didn't get the knowledge of good and evil, but they paid the price for it.

 

Mankind is under the curse of sin due to the fall of Adam.

It was a sin that is our curse today.

If it were not a sin... then why are we in sin due to Adam?

If it were not a sin... then we would have not sin.

 

That is a good point. Those who believe that only death was introduced by Adam eating the fruit maintain that it wasn't until after man had the knowledge of good and evil and then did evil did he sin. So, sin came from the fruit, not the act of eating it.

[Moai]

See for yourself. conclusion is above. and you picked middle process

 

Yes, I picked the middle part that is more uplifiting, but it is not spelled out as folly. Even in the conclusion, all we are told is to follow God's Commandments. You can be merry and still follow the Commandments.

[lonelybird]

Yes, I picked the middle part that is more uplifiting, but it is not spelled out as folly. Even in the conclusion, all we are told is to follow God's Commandments. You can be merry and still follow the Commandments.

who said you must be miserable and follow the Commandments? NO