Lost my faith, might find it again...but might not

March 13, 2007

Bible is a mirror. Meek sheep reflect out Love of God, wrong doer and rebellion reflect out anger of God. because God want people to be righteousness.

Who told you this? This idea is not in scripture anywhere that I know of.

March 13, 2007

Who told you this? This idea is not in scripture anywhere that I know of.

This idea come from Holy Spirit

March 13, 2007

oh, story from Bible, about rich and poor man

"There was once a rich man who dressed in the most expensive clothes and lived in great luxury every day.

16:20 There was also a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who used to be brought to the rich man's door,

16:21 hoping to eat the bits of food that fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs would come and lick his sores.

16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to sit beside Abraham at the feast in heaven. The rich man died and was buried,

16:23 (*)and in Hades,(s) where he was in great pain, he looked up and saw Abraham, far away, with Lazarus at his side.

16:24 So he called out, 'Father Abraham! Take pity on me, and send Lazarus to dip his finger in some water and cool off my tongue, because I am in great pain in this fire!'

16:25 But Abraham said, 'Remember, my son, that in your lifetime you were given all the good things, while Lazarus got all the bad things. But now he is enjoying himself here, while you are in pain.

16:26 Besides all that, there is a deep pit lying between us, so that those who want to cross over from here to you cannot do so, nor can anyone cross over to us from where you are.'

16:27 The rich man said, 'Then I beg you, father Abraham, send Lazarus to my father's house,

16:28 where I have five brothers. Let him go and warn them so that they, at least, will not come to this place of pain.'

16:29 Abraham said, 'Your brothers have Moses and the prophets to warn them; your brothers should listen to what they say.'

16:30 The rich man answered, 'That is not enough, father Abraham! But if someone were to rise from death and go to them, then they would turn from their sins.'

16:31 But Abraham said, 'If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone were to rise from death.'"

March 13, 2007

Yes, the Bible was translated by men. But I know a person who work God's work, will be guided by Holy Spirit. If there are something wrong, Holy Spirit will tell very loudly and clearly, if anybody dare to do things against Holy Spirit's instruction, that person would bear consequences, based on fear of this, a person who works God's work will not lie. I don't know how many my posts you choose to miss. I said this many times.

Again, the Old Testament and New Testament talk about same Holy Spirit. because I have Holy Spirit, so I always pay attention to this, it is written all over in the Bible.

The Old Testament and New most definitely do NOT talk about the same Holy Spirit.

The God of the Old Testament is ONE BEING. He has no physical body, He is unchanging, and He is all-powerful. He is not split into three beings, nor has he ever, nor will he ever take human form. Ever. The Old Testament is VERY EXPLICIT about this.

Christians believe that the Godhead is made up of three things: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is paganistic, and does not follow monotheistic belief. Look it up if you don't believe me. that is yet another reason why Jews reject the New Testament. God becoming flesh is abhorrent to them.

God also works very differently in the Old Testament. When God does something in the Old Testament, He does it in front of everybody. What good is a revelation if only a few people see it. The Old Testament says that revelation and prophecy are for all the people (meaning the Jews), not just a few. Otherwise, what good is the revelation?

In the New Testament, big things happen but are only witnessed by a few, and things are not spelled out as specifically. Why the change?

Also, God promises that His Law is a contract with the Jews, and that the contract is FOREVER, never changing, and having no new revelation. Period. Those who believe that the Law will be changed or does not have to be followed are false prophets, and are evil.

I am not making any of this up. You can look it all up for yourself. Search for "why Jews don't follow Jesus" and you'll get all the information you need. And, as skeptical as I am, they make a strong argument. I am still an atheist, of course, but if in fact there is a God and it is the God of Abraham, they know what they are talking about.

As you say, let it speak to your heart and see how you feel. Certainly your faith is strong enough to handle that.

March 13, 2007

This idea come from Holy Spirit

So you believe in continuous revelation then?

March 13, 2007

oh, story from Bible, about rich and poor man

"There was once a rich man who dressed in the most expensive clothes and lived in great luxury every day.
16:20 There was also a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who used to be brought to the rich man's door,
16:21 hoping to eat the bits of food that fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs would come and lick his sores.
16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to sit beside Abraham at the feast in heaven. The rich man died and was buried,
16:23 (*)and in Hades,(s) where he was in great pain, he looked up and saw Abraham, far away, with Lazarus at his side.
16:24 So he called out, 'Father Abraham! Take pity on me, and send Lazarus to dip his finger in some water and cool off my tongue, because I am in great pain in this fire!'
16:25 But Abraham said, 'Remember, my son, that in your lifetime you were given all the good things, while Lazarus got all the bad things. But now he is enjoying himself here, while you are in pain.
16:26 Besides all that, there is a deep pit lying between us, so that those who want to cross over from here to you cannot do so, nor can anyone cross over to us from where you are.'
16:27 The rich man said, 'Then I beg you, father Abraham, send Lazarus to my father's house,
16:28 where I have five brothers. Let him go and warn them so that they, at least, will not come to this place of pain.'
16:29 Abraham said, 'Your brothers have Moses and the prophets to warn them; your brothers should listen to what they say.'
16:30 The rich man answered, 'That is not enough, father Abraham! But if someone were to rise from death and go to them, then they would turn from their sins.'
16:31 But Abraham said, 'If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone were to rise from death.'"

Yep. That's in Luke. And notice, it says that "if they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone were to rise from death" right?

Are you following the Law? Do you listen to the prophets. No, you don't. And so, even though someone did rise from the dead (supposedly) you STILL don't follow the Law and listen to the prophets. You worship idols and follow false prophets. Too bad.

March 13, 2007

The Old Testament and New most definitely do NOT talk about the same Holy Spirit.

The God of the Old Testament is ONE BEING. He has no physical body, He is unchanging, and He is all-powerful. He is not split into three beings, nor has he ever, nor will he ever take human form. Ever. The Old Testament is VERY EXPLICIT about this.

Christians believe that the Godhead is made up of three things: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is paganistic, and does not follow monotheistic belief. Look it up if you don't believe me. that is yet another reason why Jews reject the New Testament. God becoming flesh is abhorrent to them.

God also works very differently in the Old Testament. When God does something in the Old Testament, He does it in front of everybody. What good is a revelation if only a few people see it. The Old Testament says that revelation and prophecy are for all the people (meaning the Jews), not just a few. Otherwise, what good is the revelation?

In the New Testament, big things happen but are only witnessed by a few, and things are not spelled out as specifically. Why the change?

Also, God promises that His Law is a contract with the Jews, and that the contract is FOREVER, never changing, and having no new revelation. Period. Those who believe that the Law will be changed or does not have to be followed are false prophets, and are evil.

I am not making any of this up. You can look it all up for yourself. Search for "why Jews don't follow Jesus" and you'll get all the information you need. And, as skeptical as I am, they make a strong argument. I am still an atheist, of course, but if in fact there is a God and it is the God of Abraham, they know what they are talking about.

As you say, let it speak to your heart and see how you feel. Certainly your faith is strong enough to handle that.

Knock, Knock, dong-dong, you have thick shell

Actually I can look those materials you mentioned. Holy Spirit will tell me anyway, which road I should go. Now I know Holy Spirit come from God, Holy Spirit confirms Jesus. Jesus confirms Holy Spirit. God sent Jesus. Jesus loves us very much, and willing to die for us, I can go on and on .....

March 13, 2007

You take scripture out of content and call it magic. There is no magic with God.

First - not nit-picking here - I believe what you are trying to say is that I take scripture out of context.

If this is in fact what you meant then you are saying I took a quote from the bible and misrepresented it's meaning because the surrounding text would give it a different meaning.

Your statement is blatantly false.

Those bible passages are quoted as is. And I assure you the surrounding text do not have any effect on the meaning of what is said in those passages.

I can quote the entire page if you'd like and that part of the scripture says exactly what I posted.

God does use magic. He used it to turn the rod into a serpent and back again (which is one of the quotes I posted). There are other places in the bible as well.

You can call this special powers or whatever you want - it all means the same thing.

You did not address the quotes from the bible I can only surmise it is because you are choosing to look past those parts that you do not agree with or can not reconcile yourself with.

Instead of addressing what god's actions were you proceed to call me names, etc.

But I assure you it is ALL the same book.

If you believe in god then he has directly instructed you to accept the WHOLE bible - not just pieces of it's text.

If you leave out parts of the content then the context of what you read would be changed.

That is why ministers usually go from one place in the bible to another explaining one point.

"turn to this page - read a passage - turn to this page - read a passage, etc."

By their instruction you are to put all of these pieces together to support one thought.

Those scriptures ARE taken out of context.

And yes, you should have a problem with that.

They never read the bible straight through. Don't you ever wonder why?

They are gods words dictated in that way for a reason.

If he'd wanted it shuffled around don't you think god - being that he is - could have written it that way himself?

Who is man to rearrange what god dictated?

As you said it is not up to man (the child) to question the parent.

Shouldn't the word be read as it was given by god?

If you are going to read the bible. Read it straight through.

You may be surprised at some of the things you'd see and some of the things god encourages.

March 13, 2007

You play upon scripture without knowing what it means and condemn it.

I do not play upon scripture. I am quoting the same bible you are.

I am not changing words or giving new meaning to the text. It does a great job of contradicting itself on it's own.

I know exactly what it means to condemn it according to YOUR faith.

I also know there are millions that discount your beliefs, and these same scriptures, yet believe in others.

I do not agree with them either.

As for test and condemnation of God Yahweh; I do not raise my voice above His.

I do not step on His judgments and condemn God.
You tread on serious ground.

So be it. You never know - I may be the one with the "in" because according to YOUR bible and your belief it is already predetermined who makes it.

And actions or belief don't change that. It is predestination.

According to what you believe god already knew whether or not I was "going to make it" when I was born - before I was born - before my mother was born - and so on.

You call your self-Atheist. Not good.

Again, according to your faith. According to your belief system.

There are millions out there who say the same about you -- DAILY.

Do you care?

Neither do I. So be it.

You say cheers; drink up this may all you get.
Many will thirst; and lack even a drop of water.

Yes - and according to the bible - according to your belief - neither of us know where we'll end up. Only god decides.

March 13, 2007

Knock, Knock, dong-dong, you have thick shell

Actually I can look those materials you mentioned. Holy Spirit will tell me anyway, which road I should go. Now I know Holy Spirit come from God, Holy Spirit confirms Jesus. Jesus confirms Holy Spirit. God sent Jesus. Jesus loves us very much, and willing to die for us, I can go on and on .....

Please do and let me know what you think.

Why do I have a thick shell, by the way? If I am not being persuaded it is because of your skills in debate, or lack of power of the Holy Spirit. Surely something like god should be so obvious that it would be plain everywhere. But it isn't, is it?

March 13, 2007

Please do and let me know what you think.

Why do I have a thick shell, by the way? If I am not being persuaded it is because of your skills in debate, or lack of power of the Holy Spirit. Surely something like god should be so obvious that it would be plain everywhere. But it isn't, is it?

You are not persuaded because Holy Spirit left space for your free will .

When you can see things through a child eyes, then you will see God everywhere:bunny:

March 13, 2007

You are not persuaded because Holy Spirit left space for your free will .
When you can see things through a child eyes, then you will see God everywhere:bunny:

What you are referring to is known as "confirmation bias".

March 13, 2007

No offense, but I don't think that you know what free will is. If God knows right now that I am going to Heaven, then at some point in the future I am going to do whatever it is that gets me in--whether it is born-again or something else. And because God knows this, I CANNOT do anything that will change that result. So, while it may seem to me that I am making my own choices, I am not--every decision I make will lead me to the preordained position.

If I had free will, every decision I make would be open-ended. The result would be unknown not only to me, but to God as well.

the free will argument rages on because people have generally failed to understand the nature of god and truly appreciate that god has both an impersonal aspect and a personal aspect. the truth of the situation is that human beings ARE god, experiencing and adding to creation from the inside of creation. so when you talk about god, for any argument to make logical sense it needs to consider the whole being of god, not just the christian version.

yes, i agree with you that free will would seem to be 'lip service' IF god knew what we would do before we did it. it would be logically inconsistent and nothing about god is logically inconsistent. but god doesn't know - god is not the omniscient being many people believe - at least not in the way they believe it.

to be technical about it, god creates 'sparks' of itself out of its own being and they volunteer to come into the world as souls for the purpose of expanding god's creation and bringing the kingdom of god to earth. so they enter this particular universe on this particular planet with an in-built desire to learn and to grow and to, as the bible puts it, take dominion over the earth. that is the spark of the pure being of god within them, yearning to be MORE.

but what a soul does with its life is totally optional. god desires that the soul realises the truth of its existence and makes an effort to reconnect to the allness of god in the spiritual realm (what some people call heaven) while retaining the individuality it has built up in the material realm (for us, earth).

yet god is NOT able to predict how individual souls will react to the experience of being a. separated from their source (god); b. alive on a planet where god's reality is not obvious (which is a necessary element in a world where free choice has any true meaning), and c. influenced by some very powerful beings which have chosen willfully to go against god's will and are currently living here and making this place truly a battleground for souls.

there is a deeper question to the issue of free will, though. if you were driving and came to a fork in the road, you would have a choice of which route to take. but if both routes led to the same place, would taking either route really be a choice?

you see, freedom to choose only has any significance when you also factor in the issue of consequences. if one fork in the road led to your home town and the other to the beach, you would have a free will choice which one to take. but unless you knew these consequences of a choice, your choice wouldn't be truly free.

so i could argue that *i* have free will, and you don't. because i, knowing god, know that making certain choices will produce different consequences for my soul and i am therefore in a position to choose freely which consequences i want and which i don't. do i want home or the beach?

but you seem to think that there are no ultimate consequences. so in reality, your choices are not made from a position of total free will because you don't believe that making choices HAS an ultimate consequence, and therefore you can't be truly free to make choices. the opportunity to know the consequences is there waiting for you, but you haven't sought it out yet. it's your choice to ignore god for as long as you want, although by my own rationale it's a choice borne of ignorance of the consequences and therefore not a truly free choice.

i don't mean 'hell' when i say consequences, btw. the biblical version of hell is incorrect. i mean more the loss of an opportunity to grow and to learn and to transcend your current thinking. there is no blame or accusation in anything i've said. i don't want to convert you either. growth cannot be forced upon someone. it only has genuine value when you feel the lack of it and seek it out yourself. the experience you are having of living without god is, actually, just as beneficial to god as my experience of living with god. how would you know what you'd missed if you'd never missed it?

March 13, 2007

the free will argument rages on because people have generally failed to understand the nature of god and truly appreciate that god has both an impersonal aspect and a personal aspect. the truth of the situation is that human beings ARE god, experiencing and adding to creation from the inside of creation. so when you talk about god, for any argument to make logical sense it needs to consider the whole being of god, not just the christian version.

While I am certainly open to discussing other concepts as to the nature of God, I doubt my "opponents" on this thread would. To address your statement above, how can you tell that humans ARE god, and that God is multifaceted, that is to say, has a personal and impersonal nature?

yes, i agree with you that free will would seem to be 'lip service' IF god knew what we would do before we did it. it would be logically inconsistent and nothing about god is logically inconsistent. but god doesn't know - god is not the omniscient being many people believe - at least not in the way they believe it.

Then what aspects does this being or "force" or whatever it is have that makes it a "god" at all?

to be technical about it, god creates 'sparks' of itself out of its own being and they volunteer to come into the world as souls for the purpose of expanding god's creation and bringing the kingdom of god to earth. so they enter this particular universe on this particular planet with an in-built desire to learn and to grow and to, as the bible puts it, take dominion over the earth. that is the spark of the pure being of god within them, yearning to be MORE.

Interesting idea, but why would a soul choose to be born with birth defects, which in many instances make life painful and all too short? Why would any being voluntarily be born only to starve? It is a sweet idea to think that beings are here to learn and grow, but for the vast majority of life on Earth--humans included--life is brutish, painful, and short. Most people don't have the time to learn and grow, they are too busy trying to keep from starving to death and avoid being killed by their rivals.

but what a soul does with its life is totally optional. god desires that the soul realises the truth of its existence and makes an effort to reconnect to the allness of god in the spiritual realm (what some people call heaven) while retaining the individuality it has built up in the material realm (for us, earth).

As with all such things, these are assertions with no evidence. It may be true, it may not. Chances are it is not. I find it interesting as well that this God, who is in all people, is everywhere, and seeks to know itself has desires. How can you tell what these desires are? Are my desires part of this? And what of people's desires that bring pain and suffering to other people?

yet god is NOT able to predict how individual souls will react to the experience of being a. separated from their source (god); b. alive on a planet where god's reality is not obvious (which is a necessary element in a world where free choice has any true meaning), and c. influenced by some very powerful beings which have chosen willfully to go against god's will and are currently living here and making this place truly a battleground for souls.

But in your comment at the top, god is in everyone. How can I be separated from something that is inside me? And if there are beings operating here that can go outside of god's will, then what you are talking about is not a god at all, but many gods, some evil, some not.

And if god has no predictive ability, then he/she/it is not a god at all, but simply a being that experiences reality differently than we do. If this is a battleground, what is the battle about? And in this battleground, how is a winner determined? Here, in the material world, or later, in the spiritual world (if there is one)? Will the battle eventually end? And, if god does not have the ability to see the future, how can he/she/it know that his/her/its will is correct and desirable?

there is a deeper question to the issue of free will, though. if you were driving and came to a fork in the road, you would have a choice of which route to take. but if both routes led to the same place, would taking either route really be a choice?

Yes. It is not the destination, but the journey. One fork might include certain experiences that are wholly different than the road not taken. And all roads do lead to the same place--namely death. But what experiences will you have along the way?

you see, freedom to choose only has any significance when you also factor in the issue of consequences. if one fork in the road led to your home town and the other to the beach, you would have a free will choice which one to take. but unless you knew these consequences of a choice, your choice wouldn't be truly free.

But we cannot know the consequences, as far as what happens after death goes. There are many ideas about it, and many prescriptions for how to achieve a desired result, but all have an equal amount of evidence--namely none.

In the immediate sense, free will is limited by culture and experience. When one decides on a religion, for example, the choices available are limited to the choices that the culture perceives as "normal". Even religions that are not common (which are rarely chosen) have their roots in the surrounding culture. This is why most people in the West, when they choose a religion, choose Christianity. Beyond that, most don't even "choose", really, they opt for the religion of their parents. Their "free will" choice isn't really a choice at all.

People are told what the consequences are of NOT believing in the spiritual sense, but in reality make their decision based on the here and now. If someone is raised Catholic, they remain Catholic for fear of alienating themselves from family, friends, and the familiar. And even if this person is not devout, the chances of him or her going so far as to renounce Catholicism are virtually nil.

so i could argue that *i* have free will, and you don't. because i, knowing god, know that making certain choices will produce different consequences for my soul and i am therefore in a position to choose freely which consequences i want and which i don't. do i want home or the beach?

Your analogy breaks down here, as I also know what the consequences are. By rejecting Jesus, for example, I could wind up in Hell. That is a distinct possibility, albeit a far-fetched one.

And by choosing your belief system, your are accepting the judgment of all the others; and you made this decision without knowing all the others. Before you came to your conclusions, did you study Islam and reject it? Did you study Buddhism, Hinduism, or Sikh? Doubtful. So, with little or no real knowledge of the consequences, you have made your choice. By your rationale above, your choice was as equally limited as mine.

but you seem to think that there are no ultimate consequences. so in reality, your choices are not made from a position of total free will because you don't believe that making choices HAS an ultimate consequence, and therefore you can't be truly free to make choices. the opportunity to know the consequences is there waiting for you, but you haven't sought it out yet. it's your choice to ignore god for as long as you want, although by my own rationale it's a choice borne of ignorance of the consequences and therefore not a truly free choice.

The reverse is true. There are many "ultimate consequences" and I reject them all. By rejecting Jesus, I may end up in Hell. If I have made a great many mistakes, when I am reincarnated I will be born as a dog or a snake or a grasshopper. I could go to Terrestrial Heaven instead of Celestial Heaven. The chances of me dying in combat are near zero, so I will not reach Valhalla. I will not be mummified and have my possessions buried with me, so the afterlife will be bleak for me indeed. If I am cremated, when God reanimates the dead I will be out of luck. Shall I go on?

Did you consider all these different outcomes? Why is it that considering mummification is silly, but the idea of Hell is not? Simply put, one is silly and not the other because of the culture you live in.

Further, it is I who have ultimate free will, because I can do what I will without fear of "ultimate consequences." My choices are my own, and are made without fear or constraint--save the cultural I mentioned above.

And by saying that I am "ignoring" god is begging the question. You are assuming that there is a god that I am ignoring, which I do not. How can I ignore something that isn't there? That is like saying I am ignoring the cobra behind my chair, even though there is no cobra there. That analogy falls short to an extent, because there is such a thing as a cobra, and while the chances of there being a cobra in my room (near zero, I live in North America), they are much greater than the chance there is a god I am ignoring.

i don't mean 'hell' when i say consequences, btw. the biblical version of hell is incorrect.

How do you know? I do not think there is a Hell because such an idea is not only nonsensical, but is unfair. And if there were to be a God worth worshiping, I would expect Him to be fair, at least. Otherwise, why worship Him?

i mean more the loss of an opportunity to grow and to learn and to transcend your current thinking. there is no blame or accusation in anything i've said. i don't want to convert you either. growth cannot be forced upon someone. it only has genuine value when you feel the lack of it and seek it out yourself. the experience you are having of living without god is, actually, just as beneficial to god as my experience of living with god. how would you know what you'd missed if you'd never missed it?

I see your point, but you assume that I have always lived without God, and that is not true. I started as a Christian, then more of a Universalist, then an atheist, with many points in between.

And I do appreciate your attitude in this post very much, but I must say that your assertion that as an atheist I cannot "grow" is false. Being an atheist has nothing to do with how spiritual I am, though many people think they are linked. Meaning is determined by the individual, and there are many things that give my life meaning. There are habits I have I wish I didn't and strive to change, and other attributes that are great I wish to strengthen. It is a daily endeavor I enjoy immensely. More so than theists, I think, because I don't have to constantly check to see if my behavior is "ok" with god and the congregation. My decisions are based on how happy they will make me and the people I love, and society at large. Simple, easy, effective.

March 13, 2007

wow. questions, questions, questions. i will try to answer them as best i can.

To address your statement above, how can you tell that humans ARE god, and that God is multifaceted, that is to say, has a personal and impersonal nature?

the truth? i learned about the nature of god by asking god. those who would accept this as a valid way to learn something won't need me to prove it. those who won't, will. i can't, so don't ask. i know because i know. technically i know because truth carries a different vibration than untruth, and i am learning to discern the difference.

Then what aspects does this being or "force" or whatever it is have that makes it a "god" at all?

you see, there is actually a difference between the creator god which most people call god and the formless, allness of god in which there is no differentation. the creator god is manifest god, it is the highest individualisation of god. god with form, if you like. the thing that makes god god is that there is nothing else. god is all there is.

Interesting idea, but why would a soul choose to be born with birth defects, which in many instances make life painful and all too short? Why would any being voluntarily be born only to starve? It is a sweet idea to think that beings are here to learn and grow, but for the vast majority of life on Earth--humans included--life is brutish, painful, and short. Most people don't have the time to learn and grow, they are too busy trying to keep from starving to death and avoid being killed by their rivals.

you are making an assumption that suffering has no value and serves no learning purpose. look at it this way. imagine you are in debt. big debt. you can go one of three ways. you can pay it off for the rest of your life. you'll never have much money but you'll be honest. you can refuse to pay it off at all and go bankrupt. or you can work three jobs, have no social life, and pay it all off in a few years so you can start living debt free after that.

now imagine that the debt you have is not money, it is a spiritual debt. all life is energy, and any energy you 'misuse' has to be paid back. all is fair in life and what you squander you owe back. this is the law of karma - that what you reap, you have to sow. now imagine you're hanging around in the spiritual realm, waiting for a body so you can have a life on earth. you owe a big debt to life. and you get the chance to pay all your debt back in one lifetime by having what to people on earth seems like a really rough deal, but to your soul seems like a way to pay back your debt in one fell swoop so you'll be debt free and can make a load of progress quickly. what would you do? maybe the souls who choose to embody in difficult circumstances want to shift all their karma at once in one life which lasts, in universal terms, the blink of an eye.

I find it interesting as well that this God, who is in all people, is everywhere, and seeks to know itself has desires. How can you tell what these desires are? Are my desires part of this? And what of people's desires that bring pain and suffering to other people?

why shouldn't god have desires? you have desires, i have desires. the nature of life is growth and change. evolution must be considered to be a force that desires progression. the desire for life is evidenced by the fact there is life.

god's desire is to expand and become more. this is the creative impulse. anything that expands and makes god more is in line with his desire. anything that contracts and makes god less is out of line. but even desires that seem, well, undesirable, can lead to realisation that the desire didn't fulfil you in the way you thought it might. this too is growth. you have free will because god desires you to grow. that includes making mistakes. how else will we learn?

How can I be separated from something that is inside me?

in reality, you cannot. you can only suffer from the iillusion you are separated. the kingdon of god is truly inside you.

And if there are beings operating here that can go outside of god's will, then what you are talking about is not a god at all, but many gods, some evil, some not.

god has no opposite. there are not good gods and bad gods. this dualistic reasoning is what many forces would like you to believe - that evil is somehow necessary as the opposite polarity to good. or that good has no meaning without evil. regarding god's will, it's perfectly possible to operate outside god's short-term will - because it is perfectly possible to ignore god within us and be selfish creatures. BUT as i said, if acting this way brings about growth in the long run it is WITHIN god's will. i'm not saying god wants people to be vile to each other. i am saying that god allows it because he sees the bigger picture and knows that within each person is the unerasable impulse to find him.

And if god has no predictive ability, then he/she/it is not a god at all, but simply a being that experiences reality differently than we do.

i didn't say god had no predictive ability. i am saying that even though you know yourself better than anyone, you can't be 100% certain what you will do in every situation before you face that situation. therefore god cannot be 100% certain what his 'sparks' will do in any given situation, because they have individuality and free will. not only that, but you are saying that god MUST be able to predict because if god couldn't predict, god wouldn't be god. this is the christian view, one you claim to reject.

If this is a battleground, what is the battle about?

it's about power. isn't that what all battles are about?

And in this battleground, how is a winner determined?

this is the biggest question you have asked so far, and would require a massive answer. the brief answer is... there is no winner. because there is only one contestant. god cannot be beaten by anything because god is everything. even those beings which are what people like you and i might call evil, are simply god wearing a disguise of evil. this is a very subtle point. evil exists but it is not ultimately real because god is all that is ultimately real.

Will the battle eventually end?

yes. it will end for some because they will choose to cease to exist. it will end for others because they will transcend the consciousness of duality, which is the state of mind that defines things only in terms of their opposites and makes people think there is nothing ultimately right or wrong. this mindset is what keeps most people blind to the reality of god. and only when you have gone some way to overcoming it, can you truly see god.

And, if god does not have the ability to see the future, how can he/she/it know that his/her/its will is correct and desirable?

because god is the ultimate self-aware being. god knows it is god. it knows its will is in line with itself that same way you do. through experience and self-awareness.

And all roads do lead to the same place--namely death.

and all deaths lead to the same place--namely life. my statement is just as arbitrary as yours - in that both require explanation of the terms before they have any meaning.

But we cannot know the consequences, as far as what happens after death goes.

no, YOU cannot know the consequences, at least in your present state of mind. i can and do know the consequences, according to my level of understanding which of course is still growing and changing. but to think that because you don't know it NO ONE can know it is silly.

There are many ideas about it, and many prescriptions for how to achieve a desired result, but all have an equal amount of evidence--namely none.

what do you mean by evidence? what evidence do you have that you're real? that's a serious question. what evidence do you have that you actually exist? if you want to reduce things to what science can prove, this has become a dualistic, circular argument.

In the immediate sense, free will is limited by culture and experience. When one decides on a religion, for example, the choices available are limited to the choices that the culture perceives as "normal". Even religions that are not common (which are rarely chosen) have their roots in the surrounding culture. This is why most people in the West, when they choose a religion, choose Christianity. Beyond that, most don't even "choose", really, they opt for the religion of their parents. Their "free will" choice isn't really a choice at all.

this is not free will, it's probability. whether people make bad choices or uninformed choices is a facet of having the ability to choose. yes, lots of people choose based on cultural factors. do they have the choice not to? yes.

People are told what the consequences are of NOT believing in the spiritual sense, but in reality make their decision based on the here and now. If someone is raised Catholic, they remain Catholic for fear of alienating themselves from family, friends, and the familiar. And even if this person is not devout, the chances of him or her going so far as to renounce Catholicism are virtually nil.

virtually nil, eh? out of my family of four siblings, three of us have renounced catholicism, including me. we come from a strong catholic tradition going back generations. were brought up in a predominantly catholic community, went to catholic school, had mostly catholic friends etc etc.

Your analogy breaks down here, as I also know what the consequences are. By rejecting Jesus, for example, I could wind up in Hell. That is a distinct possibility, albeit a far-fetched one.

with respect moai, you do not know what the consequences are. if you did you wouldn't say 'i could wind up in hell', even as a far-fetched possibility.

And by choosing your belief system, your are accepting the judgment of all the others; and you made this decision without knowing all the others.

THIS is the consciousness of duality in action. you think that because one system is right, the things which oppose that system must be wrong. in reality, this is incorrect. all religions have at heart a true teaching about god and god has no opposite. those religions have, to a greater or lesser extent, been perverted by the consciousness of duality into opposing, and often warring, sides. what i am explaining through my beliefs is an inner path of spirituality which knows that things are not black and white. i follow no outer religion because i know no outer religion could possibly refect the true teachings of god which transcend words and can only be known inside you.

Before you came to your conclusions, did you study Islam and reject it? Did you study Buddhism, Hinduism, or Sikh? Doubtful. So, with little or no real knowledge of the consequences, you have made your choice. By your rationale above, your choice was as equally limited as mine.

what i said above should make these questions irrelevant. in case you missed it, i respect all these religions and follow a path that transcends all of them.

By rejecting Jesus, I may end up in Hell. If I have made a great many mistakes, when I am reincarnated I will be born as a dog or a snake or a grasshopper. I could go to Terrestrial Heaven instead of Celestial Heaven. The chances of me dying in combat are near zero, so I will not reach Valhalla. I will not be mummified and have my possessions buried with me, so the afterlife will be bleak for me indeed. If I am cremated, when God reanimates the dead I will be out of luck. Shall I go on?

only if you want to dig a deeper hole. you are demonstrating that you don't know the consequences of your actions. you only know what other people have claimed are consequences. the truth is very far from these claims.

Did you consider all these different outcomes? Why is it that considering mummification is silly, but the idea of Hell is not? Simply put, one is silly and not the other because of the culture you live in.

whether they are silly or not, or of a certain culture or not is totally beside the point. we are talking about god's truth. not about what certain groups of people have THOUGHT is god's truth. please believe me, the truth of god is so far above any of these ideas that thinking the ideas are equally valid is just another demonstration of false thinking.

Further, it is I who have ultimate free will, because I can do what I will without fear of "ultimate consequences."

i applaude this. it's incorrect, but to live in fear is no way to live, i agree. however i must tell you that what you think (or what anyone thinks) has no bearing on the reality of god. you can think actions have no consequences if you like but it won't stop you reaping the consequences of those actions.

And by saying that I am "ignoring" god is begging the question. You are assuming that there is a god that I am ignoring, which I do not. How can I ignore something that isn't there? That is like saying I am ignoring the cobra behind my chair, even though there is no cobra there. That analogy falls short to an extent, because there is such a thing as a cobra, and while the chances of there being a cobra in my room (near zero, I live in North America), they are much greater than the chance there is a god I am ignoring.

i am not assuming there is a god you are ignoring. i am telling you flat out. just because you have not consciously experienced god yet doesn't alter the reality of god one jot. perhaps i would do better explaining this to your imaginary cobra.

And if there were to be a God worth worshiping, I would expect Him to be fair, at least. Otherwise, why worship Him?

you're asking the wrong person. i don't worship god in the traditional sense. i strive to know god as myself and to live within god's will - which is of course my higher will. worship implies distance between that which worships and that which is being worshipped. god doesn't want to reinforce this (false) idea by encouraging worship.

I see your point, but you assume that I have always lived without God, and that is not true. I started as a Christian, then more of a Universalist, then an atheist, with many points in between.

i am pleased to hear it. growth and change shows a thinking mind. can i assume where you now is not where you'll be in ten years then?

I must say that your assertion that as an atheist I cannot "grow" is false.

i am sorry i implied that. i didn't mean it. i hope my above post makes up for it.

Being an atheist has nothing to do with how spiritual I am, though many people think they are linked.

i am one of those people. spirituality implies spirit, and spirit implies something that exists outside the body - meaning it cannot be caused by the body. so to be a spiritual atheist seems like an oxymoron.

I don't have to constantly check to see if my behavior is "ok" with god and the congregation.

neither do i. because as i have explained, god and me are inseperable. so god's will is truly my will - god is not putting his will on me and wearing me down until i conform. the spiritual path is about uncovering who i am and living it. i am god, which is how i try to live.

My decisions are based on how happy they will make me and the people I love, and society at large. Simple, easy, effective.

oooh, tricky. i don't think 'if it feels good, do it' is actually the best way to live, particularly when what makes us 'happy' can often be something that hurts another person either through intent or neglect. i actually prefer 'love your neighbour as yourself' as a way to live.

March 14, 2007

wow. questions, questions, questions. i will try to answer them as best i can.

I appreciate your candor in this matter.

the truth? i learned about the nature of god by asking god. those who would accept this as a valid way to learn something won't need me to prove it. those who won't, will. i can't, so don't ask. i know because i know. technically i know because truth carries a different vibration than untruth, and i am learning to discern the difference.

I am sure you know, your above statement begs the question. As your above statement also does not allow for objective testing, there is really no way for you to determine truth from untruth--save from how you feel, and your feelings can be deceiving.

It is for that reason that I accept things based on evidence, and reject that which has none, even though doing so may make me uncomfortable at times.

you see, there is actually a difference between the creator god which most people call god and the formless, allness of god in which there is no differentation. the creator god is manifest god, it is the highest individualisation of god. god with form, if you like. the thing that makes god god is that there is nothing else. god is all there is.

To describe god as everything is to describe nothing, really. It is a quaint idea, but I fail to see how such a belief changes anything, or changes how I interact with reality.

you are making an assumption that suffering has no value and serves no learning purpose. look at it this way. imagine you are in debt. big debt. you can go one of three ways. you can pay it off for the rest of your life. you'll never have much money but you'll be honest. you can refuse to pay it off at all and go bankrupt. or you can work three jobs, have no social life, and pay it all off in a few years so you can start living debt free after that.

now imagine that the debt you have is not money, it is a spiritual debt. all life is energy, and any energy you 'misuse' has to be paid back. all is fair in life and what you squander you owe back. this is the law of karma - that what you reap, you have to sow. now imagine you're hanging around in the spiritual realm, waiting for a body so you can have a life on earth. you owe a big debt to life. and you get the chance to pay all your debt back in one lifetime by having what to people on earth seems like a really rough deal, but to your soul seems like a way to pay back your debt in one fell swoop so you'll be debt free and can make a load of progress quickly. what would you do? maybe the souls who choose to embody in difficult circumstances want to shift all their karma at once in one life which lasts, in universal terms, the blink of an eye.

First off, there is no evidence for such a thing as karma. It is just another explanation as to why bad things happen to some people and not others, and I think a rather lame one. Josef Stalin was one of the most evil men in history, and he died in his sleep. It is a nice idea that somehow is being punished in the afterlife or has returned as a beetle, but the satisfying nature of a thought is not indicative of its truth.

To suggest that a soul voluntarily chose to be in a death camp, or be a slave, or any number of horrible things I could mention is not rational. While it is certainly true that adversity can bring forth strength, because I can think abstractly I need not experience horrific levels of adversity to grow from it, nor do I need (or want) someone to undergo them in my stead. And my own life is less than the blink of an eye in geologic terms, and yet I want it to be as pleasant as possible, don't I? All living things do. What exactly happened between the spiritual world and the material one that made me forget that I really wanted a lot of pain?

This also suggests that any advance we make in medicine, or in ending misery is actually amassing more "soul-debt" for those we are helping. And, since the children starving in Africa chose to be in that situation, I shouldn't help them, right? I wouldn't want to ruin the experience that they asked for.

I think to say that a spirit asked to be born with its spine outside of its body so it would know what it is like to be in a wheelchair, never knowing love or companionship, all the while watching and understanding that others have those things is rather sick. And I know a woman who is exactly that state, for exactly that reason. I find it interesting that people who espouse this belief are in good health, have experienced little true horror themselves, and live in comfort.

If life is energy, it is largely negative energy then. Beyond human suffering, there are animals right now dying from parasites eating them alive, deer starving, predators devouring their prey alive or starving themselves. And it must be this way. Even if there were to be a time of universal bounty, eventually the amount of life would overwhelm the ability of the planet to sustain it, and we would be right back where we are. That said, most human suffering is unnecessary and easily preventable; think of all the people who would still be alive if not for religious differences alone.

why shouldn't god have desires? you have desires, i have desires. the nature of life is growth and change. evolution must be considered to be a force that desires progression. the desire for life is evidenced by the fact there is life.

First, if god has desires that would mean that there is something god wants and doesn't have, which would mean that such a thing isn't god at all. And Evolution does not desire "progression" as you put it. Certainly there has been a change form simpler organisms to organisms that are more complex, but that is not by definition "progress." If evolution could be said to desire anything it would be bacteria, since there are more kinds of bacteria than there are anything else. Well, maybe beetles.

Just because there is life does not mean that there is desire for it. Certainly life itself tries to stay alive, but that doesn't mean that life exists because of this desire.

god's desire is to expand and become more. this is the creative impulse. anything that expands and makes god more is in line with his desire. anything that contracts and makes god less is out of line. but even desires that seem, well, undesirable, can lead to realisation that the desire didn't fulfil you in the way you thought it might. this too is growth. you have free will because god desires you to grow. that includes making mistakes. how else will we learn?

If god needs to expand, it is not god, and it is not "everything." By your above definition, agony makes god bigger, and more people in agony means god gets bigger exponentially.

in reality, you cannot. you can only suffer from the iillusion you are separated. the kingdon of god is truly inside you.

Which goes back to it being impossible for me to do anything that is not god's will. If god is inside me, he wants me to be an atheist so he can see what it is like to be an atheist. And my atheism makes god bigger.

god has no opposite. there are not good gods and bad gods. this dualistic reasoning is what many forces would like you to believe - that evil is somehow necessary as the opposite polarity to good. or that good has no meaning without evil. regarding god's will, it's perfectly possible to operate outside god's short-term will - because it is perfectly possible to ignore god within us and be selfish creatures. BUT as i said, if acting this way brings about growth in the long run it is WITHIN god's will. i'm not saying god wants people to be vile to each other. i am saying that god allows it because he sees the bigger picture and knows that within each person is the unerasable impulse to find him.

I have no urge to find him, as I am not even looking since I don't think that he exists. Beyond that, if god is in everything, it is impossible for me to go against his will. You said so above earlier. Also, if god is both good and evil, and is everything, then it isn't a god at all, but just another way to describe reality--a reality we can adequately describe through observation and experimentation, and without invoking any sort of unprovable dogma.

Do you believe that we evolved on this planet, or that we were placed here, or..? We are selfish creatures because it is beneficial to be selfish. I am nice to other people because I am selfish and I want them to be nice to me. I give to other people because it makes me feel good, and I am selfish and I like it when I feel good.

i didn't say god had no predictive ability. i am saying that even though you know yourself better than anyone, you can't be 100% certain what you will do in every situation before you face that situation. therefore god cannot be 100% certain what his 'sparks' will do in any given situation, because they have individuality and free will. not only that, but you are saying that god MUST be able to predict because if god couldn't predict, god wouldn't be god. this is the christian view, one you claim to reject.

It is not just the Christian view. The term "god" has specific definitions, and while the vast majority of theists agree on what attributes god has, they don't agree on how to worship said deity, or on what the will of said deity is, or what behavior the deity likes or doesn't.

If god is uncertain about the result of his behavior, at any moment he could do something and we would vanish, or explode, or morph into something completely different. And given the awesome power a god possesses, the idea of a god wandering around wondering what is going to happen is rather frightening. I don't for a moment think that is the case, though.

it's about power. isn't that what all battles are about?

So, if there is a spiritual battel going on, and god is everything, then god is battling himself?

this is the biggest question you have asked so far, and would require a massive answer. the brief answer is... there is no winner. because there is only one contestant. god cannot be beaten by anything because god is everything. even those beings which are what people like you and i might call evil, are simply god wearing a disguise of evil. this is a very subtle point. evil exists but it is not ultimately real because god is all that is ultimately real.

Ok, so there is really no battle at all then.

yes. it will end for some because they will choose to cease to exist. it will end for others because they will transcend the consciousness of duality, which is the state of mind that defines things only in terms of their opposites and makes people think there is nothing ultimately right or wrong. this mindset is what keeps most people blind to the reality of god. and only when you have gone some way to overcoming it, can you truly see god.

You argue against yourself. If god is disguising himself as evil but evil does not ultimately exist, then there is no absolute right and absolute wrong.

because god is the ultimate self-aware being. god knows it is god. it knows its will is in line with itself that same way you do. through experience and self-awareness.

But with limited skill in predicting the outcome of his or my actions. That doesn't sound to self-aware to me, since I am part of everything and god doesn't know what I am going to do in any given situation.

and all deaths lead to the same place--namely life. my statement is just as arbitrary as yours - in that both require explanation of the terms before they have any meaning.

Incorrect. My statement is not arbitrary. Death exists. I have seen it, and caused it myself, as has virtually everyone. I see it every day. I know that there is no form of life that doesn't eventually die. Therefore I will die. Your belief that souls pick their circumstances and choose to come back or not and all the rest is completely arbitrary, as there is zero evidence to support such an assertion.

no, YOU cannot know the consequences, at least in your present state of mind. i can and do know the consequences, according to my level of understanding which of course is still growing and changing. but to think that because you don't know it NO ONE can know it is silly.

No, your above statement is silly. You have never died, you have no evidence for these wild claims that you are making. You may sit and concentrate on your circular reasoning and enjoy its vibrations and call it truth, but it is just as delusional as a man claiming he is Napoleon.

God is unknowable. Even the greatest theologians of all time agree on this, but they have faith that the god in their sacred texts is real. Hence the term "faith." But "faith" is in now way a state of knowing. People use that phrase, to "know" god exists, but what that means is that they have believe something for which there is no evidence.

It is not incumbent upon me to prove a negative. There is not any evidence to suggest that there is a god, the one you describe or otherwise. Therefore I do not believe in one. I can also say with absolute assurance that the god or gods I do know about cannot exist.

There very well could be a god for all I know. All I know is that he she or it is not one I have ever heard or read described, anywhere. Since I can explain a great deal of reality without invoking a supernatural being, why postulate one at all?

what do you mean by evidence? what evidence do you have that you're real? that's a serious question. what evidence do you have that you actually exist? if you want to reduce things to what science can prove, this has become a dualistic, circular argument.

I know I exist because I can interact with the larger world, even now. Is it possible that this is all an illusion? Of course. This could all be a simulation in some massive alien computer somewhere. God could have created all of this seconds ago, with all of our memories intact. Once you start thinking magically, anything is possible, but is it probable? Is is highly probable that I exist, since I am enjoying experience right now. I also do not doubt your existence, as the chances of you being a bot or in my imagination are also unlikely. Possible certainly, but not probable.

There is no "proof" on science, rather there is evidence or a lack thereof. All of the evidence I see around me suggests that I exist. You are responding to me, are you not? All of the evidence I see also suggests that you exist. There is a chance, however slight, that neither of us do, but such a chance is so small that to consider it is silly.

Also, I must exist before I can consider whether or not I exist, is that not so? I would say that since I am here considering that, I am here.

this is not free will, it's probability. whether people make in bad choices or uninformed choices is a facet of having the ability to choose. yes, lots of people choose based on cultural factors. do they have the choice not to? yes.

Which is a choice in and of itself. The point is, when I make a choice of what to wear today, I am limited by the number of choices offered by my culture. Even if I decide to wear a dress, it would still be a garment that is common in my culture. I could even go with a loincloth, if I didn't want to go into a restaurant or a store. But I can't wear human skin, I can't wear penguin feathers, I can't wear banana leaves. I am going to wear cotton, or some form of polyester blend probably (I prefer cotton).

If I have an altercation with someone in the bar later, my response will largely be dictated by what the proper cultural response should be. My choices of response are limited. Certainly I am free to choose amongst them, but that doesn't mean that my will is "free."

virtually nil, eh? out of my family of four siblings, three of us have renounced catholicism, including me. we come from a strong catholic tradition going back generations. were brought up in a predominantly catholic community, went to catholic school, had mostly catholic friends etc etc.

I should have been more specific. Did you go to your local diocese and declare yourself no longer Catholic, or were you formerly excommunicated? I know a great many lapsed Catholics, and a few formerly Catholic atheists, and not one of them had performed that step.

I have one ex-Mormon friend who had himself officially excommunicated, but he is the only person I have ever met, and one of few I have even heard about, who has done such a thing.

My father was a Baptist minister, and I reject religion totally, but even in my case I have not bothered to announce that to the local Baptist congregation. As far as they are concerned, I am still a Baptist.

with respect moai, you do not know what the consequences are. if you did you wouldn't say 'i could wind up in hell', even as a far-fetched possibility.

I have to say that. All ideas about life after death are equally plausible, and have an equal amount of evidence--which is zero. I don't for a second believe that there is a place called Hell, but I could be wrong. You could be wrong, too, and the fact that you would not even entertain such an idea--given there is no evidence for what you claim, either--is the height of intellectual arrogance. You claim to be enlightened, yet you speak just as dogmatically as those who are not at your particular "level of understanding."

THIS is the consciousness of duality in action. you think that because one system is right, the things which oppose that system must be wrong. in reality, this is incorrect.

Incorrect. There are many systems of knowing, and so far science is the best one we have, so I use that. When and if a better one comes along, I'll use that. I am not holding my breath waiting for it.

Rational thinking and scientific inquiry has evidence to show that it is beneficial, and therefore "right." No other system explains the natural world as well.

all religions have at heart a true teaching about god and god has no opposite. those religions have, to a greater or lesser extent, been perverted by the consciousness of duality into opposing, and often warring, sides.

Welcome to the Ba'hai faith. Do you assert that Greek polytheism has its root in this truth you describe? And from what I can surmise from this post so far, it seems as if it pleases you to rename things and impart consciousness on them. More power to you, but I think that's silly.

what i am explaining through my beliefs is an inner path of spirituality which knows that things are not black and white. i follow no outer religion because i know no outer religion could possibly refect the true teachings of god which transcend words and can only be known inside you.

Ok. How do you come across these true teachings of god, by the way?

what i said above should make these questions irrelevant. in case you missed it, i respect all these religions and follow a path that transcends all of them.

Or so you assert. You can do nothing else, as you have no evidence. Don't feel bad, nobody else does, either.

only if you want to dig a deeper hole. you are demonstrating that you don't know the consequences of your actions. you only know what other people have claimed are consequences. the truth is very far from these claims.

Which is a claim without evidence, just like theirs. I am sure you like yours better than you like theirs, but that doesn't make it any more real. the fact that its vibrations resonate with you "better" or something doesn't make them any more true. Your experience is exactly the same as an ardent believer of any other stripe.

whether they are silly or not, or of a certain culture or not is totally beside the point. we are talking about god's truth. not about what certain groups of people have THOUGHT is god's truth. please believe me, the truth of god is so far above any of these ideas that thinking the ideas are equally valid is just another demonstration of false thinking.

No, you are doing the same thing they do. "Jesus is god, its obvious and all other religions are hogwash." I don't know what you would call your belief system, but insert it name in place of "Jesus is god" above and that restates your above comment.

Right now you are only "thinking" that you know god's truth, but in reality your are guilty of confirmation bias, the same as they.

Understanding that none of what you claim or they claim has any evidence is not false thinking, it is a simple statement of fact.

i applaude this. it's incorrect, but to live in fear is no way to live, i agree. however i must tell you that what you think (or what anyone thinks) has no bearing on the reality of god. you can think actions have no consequences if you like but it won't stop you reaping the consequences of those actions.

You just said, "You can reject God if you want, but he will judge you and you will go to Hell just the same" but with different words. How nice it must be to be so dogmatic. I am not trying to be insulting or flippant, but for someone who asserts a certain level of enlightenment I would have expected a little better.

I have no way of knowing what happens after I die. I am certain I will find out eventually. But since there is no evidence to suggest that anything happens, I don't think anything does. I could be right, I could be wrong (but I am probably not). The same goes for you, but I am not arrogant enough to make statements of certainty without evidence.

Please understand that I am not trying to be pejorative.

i am not assuming there is a god you are ignoring. i am telling you flat out. just because you have not consciously experienced god yet doesn't alter the reality of god one jot. perhaps i would do better explaining this to your imaginary cobra.

Yes, you are telling me, and I am just supposed to accept it because you say so. What you say above is exactly what I meant when I said I could possibly go to hell. My belief in such a place has no effect on whether or not is does. I am as confident in the fact that it doesn't as I am in my own name, but there is always the possibility that I am wrong.

you're asking the wrong person. i don't worship god in the traditional sense. i strive to know god as myself and to live within god's will - which is of course my higher will. worship implies distance between that which worships and that which is being worshipped. god doesn't want to reinforce this (false) idea by encouraging worship.

Uh-huh. And you determine these ideas are false how, exactly? Can you demonstrate that you are correct using anything other than your asserting it, or at best some anecdotal evidence?

i am pleased to hear it. growth and change shows a thinking mind. can i assume where you now is not where you'll be in ten years then?

Probably not. The odds are 99.9% that I will still be an atheist, though.

i am sorry i implied that. i didn't mean it. i hope my above post makes up for it.

No problem. Apology accepted, but not necessary.

i am one of those people. spirituality implies spirit, and spirit implies something that exists outside the body - meaning it cannot be caused by the body. so to be a spiritual atheist seems like an oxymoron.

Not necessarily. I believe that all of my experience and my "spirit" is in sme part of my brain. And my spirit is one of the things that enhances my experience. You mentioned duality before, but I do not see a duality between my physical body and my spirit, or my mind. They are all me, and all of them together experience life. It is from that idea that my spirituality comes.

neither do i. because as i have explained, god and me are inseperable. so god's will is truly my will - god is not putting his will on me and wearing me down until i conform. the spiritual path is about uncovering who i am and living it. i am god, which is how i try to live.

Well, great, I hope it works out for you.

oooh, tricky. i don't think 'if it feels good, do it' is actually the best way to live, particularly when what makes us 'happy' can often be something that hurts another person either through intent or neglect. i actually prefer 'love your neighbour as yourself' as a way to live.

Love your neighbor as yourself is the same as "if it feels good do it", at least in the hands of a rational person. I think it goes back to Faust, but I find I am happiest when I am helping others. It feels good, so I do it.

March 14, 2007

First - not nit-picking here - I believe what you are trying to say is that I take scripture out of context.

If this is in fact what you meant then you are saying I took a quote from the bible and misrepresented it's meaning because the surrounding text would give it a different meaning.

Your statement is blatantly false.

Those bible passages are quoted as is. And I assure you the surrounding text do not have any effect on the meaning of what is said in those passages.

I can quote the entire page if you'd like and that part of the scripture says exactly what I posted.

God does use magic. He used it to turn the rod into a serpent and back again (which is one of the quotes I posted). There are other places in the bible as well.

You can call this special powers or whatever you want - it all means the same thing.

You did not address the quotes from the bible I can only surmise it is because you are choosing to look past those parts that you do not agree with or can not reconcile yourself with.

Instead of addressing what god's actions were you proceed to call me names, etc.

But I assure you it is ALL the same book.

If you believe in god then he has directly instructed you to accept the WHOLE bible - not just pieces of it's text.

If you leave out parts of the content then the context of what you read would be changed.

That is why ministers usually go from one place in the bible to another explaining one point.

"turn to this page - read a passage - turn to this page - read a passage, etc."

By their instruction you are to put all of these pieces together to support one thought.

Those scriptures ARE taken out of context.
And yes, you should have a problem with that.

They never read the bible straight through. Don't you ever wonder why?

They are gods words dictated in that way for a reason.

If he'd wanted it shuffled around don't you think god - being that he is - could have written it that way himself?

Who is man to rearrange what god dictated?

As you said it is not up to man (the child) to question the parent.

Shouldn't the word be read as it was given by god?

If you are going to read the bible. Read it straight through.

You may be surprised at some of the things you'd see and some of the things god encourages.

Magic;

http://www.ask.com/web?q=magic&qsrc=1&o=333&l=dir

Black and White Magic:

http://www.ask.com/web?q=+black+white+magic&qsrc=1&o=333&l=dir

WONDROUS WORKS:

http://www.ask.com/web?o=333&qsrc=19&l=dir&q=wondrous+works

Scripture on Wondrous Works:

http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php?q=wondrous+works&ver=kjv

Scripture on Magic … All Magicians:

http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php?q=magic&ver=kjv

See even the net knows and confirms scripture…

God does not do Magic.

Magic is associated with Satan

God does Wondrous Works.

You see my friend there is a diff.

March 14, 2007

Magic;
http://www.ask.com/web?q=magic&qsrc=1&o=333&l=dir

Black and White Magic:
http://www.ask.com/web?q=+black+white+magic&qsrc=1&o=333&l=dir

WONDROUS WORKS:
http://www.ask.com/web?o=333&qsrc=19&l=dir&q=wondrous+works

Scripture on Wondrous Works:
http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php?q=wondrous+works&ver=kjv

Scripture on Magic … All Magicians:
http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php?q=magic&ver=kjv

See even the net knows and confirms scripture…
God does not do Magic.
Magic is associated with Satan
God does Wondrous Works.
You see my friend there is a diff.

A rose by any other name....Any act that Jesus did canbe duplicated by Penn and Teller right now. And they are magicians.

March 14, 2007

See even the net knows and confirms scripture…
God does not do Magic.
Magic is associated with Satan
God does Wondrous Works.
You see my friend there is a diff.

Those who study the bible admitting the passage I quoted directly from the bible is showing God uses MAGIC:

http://www.bible-study-answers.info/articles/magic-in-the-bible.html

I quote:

"This is a demonstration of magic powers before Pharaoh"

Why is this a point you do not speak about? Why do you try to change the meaning instead of just embracing it as a part of the bible?

It IS a part of the bible.

And you have said it is the word of God. Are you calling that part into question?

And as far as the Wonderous Works link you posted -

it is filled with sites where those words appear

and of course those sites that have quotes from the bible which say "wonderous works" were performed.

But I am not sure I understand the significance.

I'll say right along with you that the bible says that God performs wonderous works.

I never said it didn't - now would I.

But it DOES say He performed magic as well.

As far as this link you posted:

Scripture on Magic … All Magicians:

http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php?q=magic&ver=kjv

Did you post this to show a contradiction in the Bible? Because God used magic and then magic was used by others that were not "men of God"?

Because it is somewhat. I can see why you would post it if that was your point.

But there are much better examples of contradictions in the Bible.

Here's a site that puts them all together:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#introduction

And here's one that is a bit more illustrative:

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/Paulianity/contra.html

The Web Is A Place To Find Everything.

Happy Surfing To All!

Shalom

March 14, 2007

A rose by any other name....Any act that Jesus did canbe duplicated by Penn and Teller right now. And they are magicians.

Exactly.

March 14, 2007

neither do i. because as i have explained, god and me are inseperable. so god's will is truly my will - god is not putting his will on me and wearing me down until i conform. the spiritual path is about uncovering who i am and living it. i am god, which is how i try to live.

I think your concept of god is close to Gnosticism? Gnosticism seems claim gnostist has one sparkle of God inside of them, and disclaim Jesus was a real person. When I read Gnosticism, I felt really good, you know, like I am god, and looked myself as equal to Jesus, (God please forgive me). but I don't think Holy Spirit was pleased by this idea, told me something wrong. then I totally abandoned this idea, and know it is not true. I guess Jesus want me to be one of his sheep:D

If you think yourself is god, won't it be dangerous? like self-righteousness? there are many ancient Rome empirors thought they were god, look what they've done? not only destroyed other people's life, but also destroyed themselves lifes.

We human being has FLESH (selfishness), MIND (rational reasoning), and SPIRIT (conscience). Some people's conscience can completely die, like Hilter. Since we have the three, we are constantly confused by many voices in our own mind. For a moment, we can be led by our flesh; the next moment we can be led by our mind or spirit. The fact is which one we feed more, which one voice we will hear loudly. That's why God is so important. we invite Jesus into our heart, when we do some wrong or led by flesh, He will tell us so, and we obey His voice, by doing so, Jesus will lead us to soul salvation, it is inside change. BUT if we are god, we just do whatever we want to, how can you know when you are led by which?

About other religions, I read many. and I only found Christianity is concerning inside soul. others is concerning good works which is outside element. One person can do evil things, and then do good things to console his conscience.

March 14, 2007

Bluestuesday, I commend you on your ability to break down and explain; you are eloquent… [a wonderful gift]. As I do not agree with all you say; I appreciate your patience in sorting through diminutives.

God Bless*

March 14, 2007

Those who study the bible admitting the passage I quoted directly from the bible is showing God uses MAGIC:

http://www.bible-study-answers.info/articles/magic-in-the-bible.html

I quote:

"This is a demonstration of magic powers before Pharaoh"

Why is this a point you do not speak about? Why do you try to change the meaning instead of just embracing it as a part of the bible?

It IS a part of the bible.

And you have said it is the word of God. Are you calling that part into question?

And as far as the Wonderous Works link you posted -

it is filled with sites where those words appear

and of course those sites that have quotes from the bible which say "wonderous works" were performed.

But I am not sure I understand the significance.

I'll say right along with you that the bible says that God performs wonderous works.

I never said it didn't - now would I.

But it DOES say He performed magic as well.

As far as this link you posted:

Scripture on Magic … All Magicians:
http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php?q=magic&ver=kjv

Did you post this to show a contradiction in the Bible? Because God used magic and then magic was used by others that were not "men of God"?

Because it is somewhat. I can see why you would post it if that was your point.

But there are much better examples of contradictions in the Bible.

Here's a site that puts them all together:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#introduction

And here's one that is a bit more illustrative:

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/Paulianity/contra.html

The Web Is A Place To Find Everything.

Happy Surfing To All!

Shalom

God has supernatural power. HE would do miracles to save people, heal people. But God hates people who use magics to lead people astray from God.

March 14, 2007

I think your concept of god is close to Gnosticism? Gnosticism seems claim gnostist has one sparkle of God inside of them, and disclaim Jesus was a real person. When I read Gnosticism, I felt really good, you know, like I am god, and looked myself as equal to Jesus, (God please forgive me). but I don't think Holy Spirit was pleased by this idea, told me something wrong. then I totally abandoned this idea, and know it is not true. I guess Jesus want me to be one of his sheep:D
If you think yourself is god, won't it be dangerous? like self-righteousness? there are many ancient Rome empirors thought they were god, look what they've done? not only destroyed other people's life, but also destroyed themselves lifes.

We human being has FLESH (selfishness), MIND (rational reasoning), and SPIRIT (conscience). Some people's conscience can completely die, like Hilter. Since we have the three, we are constantly confused by many voices in our own mind. For a moment, we can be led by our flesh; the next moment we can be led by our mind or spirit. The fact is which one we feed more, which one voice we will hear loudly. That's why God is so important. we invite Jesus into our heart, when we do some wrong or led by flesh, He will tell us so, and we obey His voice, by doing so, Jesus will lead us to soul salvation, it is inside change. BUT if we are god, we just do whatever we want to, how can you know when you are led by which?

About other religions, I read many. and I only found Christianity is concerning inside soul. others is concerning good works which is outside element. One person can do evil things, and then do good things to console his conscience.

Do you agree Lonelybird that some things Bluestueday says are in accord with scripture; im amazed at his explanations… yet He looses it when it comes to Jesus is the Son of God and Salvation is key.

God Bless*

March 14, 2007

HE would do miracles to save people, heal people.

Ummmmm.

He actually punishes people too:

Numbers 5

5:27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

God is not all love, healing, and happiness.

Lost my faith, might find it again...but might not

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