Lost my faith, might find it again...but might not

[lonelybird]

14:15 (*)"If you love me, you will obey my commandments.

14:16 I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, who will stay with you forever.

14:17 He is the Spirit, who reveals the truth about God. The world cannot receive him, because it cannot see him or know him. But you know him, because he remains with you and is(f) in you.

 

1(*)"Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. My Father will love those who love me; I too will love them and reveal myself to them."

 

15:18 "If the world hates you, just remember that it has hated me first.

15:19 If you belonged to the world, then the world would love you as its own. But I chose you from this world, and you do not belong to it; that is why the world hates you.

 

16:7 But I am telling you the truth: it is better for you that I go away, because if I do not go, the Helper will not come to you. But if I do go away, then I will send him to you.

 

3(*)When, however, the Spirit comes, who reveals the truth about God, he will lead you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own authority, but he will speak of what he hears and will tell you of things to come.

16:14 He will give me glory, because he will take what I say and tell it to you.

[lonelybird]

Given the manual about what God likes and doesn't like, it is a virtual certainty that I have done something to offend him. However, I am (if I am lucky) going to be on e Earth for 80 years or so. Is it fair, or even reasonable, to suggest that I could do something while alive that would warrant an ETERNITY in Hell?

 

And lest we forget, I go to Hell because I BELIEVE the wrong way. It doesn't matter how cool I am, or how popular I am, or how many starving children are still alive because of me, if I did not BELIEVE in Jesus I am cast into hellfire.

 

And let us be clear about something: Jeffery Dahmer, a homosexual (which god hates) murderer found Jesus maybe a month before he died, and he is in Heaven. If you believe that you are save through faith, it must be so. He repented and accepted Jesus. So, while he was free from jail) he drugged, had sex with, and murdered young men--and kept parts of them in his refrigerator--but because he had the opportunity to repent before he died, he is in Heaven. By your interpretation the Bible says he is. You are not saved by works, but by faith. Is that not correct? All of the horrors committed by Dahmer are washed away the instant he accepted Jesus.

 

Consider one of his victims. He was a young Cambodian, not fluent in English. He was drugged by Dahmer, and taken to Dahmer's residence. Before he was killed, he ran out into the street--naked--and found the police. Because he had very little English skill (and I would say, because of a MASSIVE bias in our culture against homosexuals) the Cambodian was given back to Dahmer to take care of. And take care of him he did, he raped and murdered the boy, and then saved his genitals and head in his refrigerator.

 

That is only one example of SEVENTEEN victims. I cannot imagine how horrific their deaths must have been.

 

And yet, because Dahmer had the opportunity to receive Jesus, he is now in Heaven with the Lord, rejoicing, playing the harp, presumably, and basking in the glow of the company of the Lord. Halleleujah!{sic}

 

Meanwhile, his victim, who came from a Buddhist tradition, did not ask Jesus' forgiveness before he died. We know this because Dahmer was very explicit about what he did to his victims. So, after enduring a torturous death, he had Hell to look forward to. All because he thought about god the wrong way. That's it. He may have been the greatest, most philanthropic person to have ever lived--but he stole a penny when he was six--and God consigned him to Hell. Forever.

 

Think about that. FOREVER. Not only did that poor boy die in an unimaginably horrible way, when he died, Jesus said, "I don't know him" and into the fire he went. From homosexual torture/murder to NEVERENDING pain and torment.

 

Is it even possible for a human to conceive of that? He will be swimming in brimstone forever. Gnashing his teeth, his flesh peeling away, without respite forever.

 

Meanwhile, the man how raped, tortured and killed him is sitting with god, enjoying neverending happiness and fulfillment, in the company of Jesus. And Jesus is happy to have him there, as he was saved, and that thwarted Satan and his plan to get as many into hell as possible.

 

Praise him who is is on high, and is mighty and good in His judgment!

 

Scripture does not say that Dahmer had to go somewhere and make it even before he got into Heaven--he went right in. He stood before God, and before God could even start on the litany of things that Dahmer did, Jesus said, "I know him" and into Heaven he went.

 

All because he repented, and took Jesus into his heart. He thought about god the right way, and that got him in. That's it. His victim, who was raised in a different culture and therefore didn't think about god the right way, experienced a horrible death, and unimaginable torture FOREVER after that.

 

Super! Sign me up. Not only do I think that is a fabulous belief system, it makes PERFECT sense!

 

I do not think that there is a human on this planet who can possibly say that such events occurring is remotely just, but here is the rationalization you will get: Who are you to question god? God is good and loves everyone, and all men fall short of his glory, and so deserve to go to Hell. While God hates that even one person goes to Hell, it must be that way, because god demands respect/love/belief/devotion/repentance.

 

If we are saved by grace, everyone in Hell is there because of a thought-crime. That's it. That would be the same as me saying "all who don't like orange juice will be imprisoned" and nobody thinking twice about it. In fact, God giving us the opportunity to like orange juice shows his love for us!

 

 

 

Well, I can see objectively that Dahmer was not good, but he thought about God the right way, so he is in Heaven. Say "hi" to him for me when you see him in the cafeteria.

 

I'll be where it's hot, hanging out with Mark Twain, Robert Ingersoll, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Voltaire, and Thomas Paine (amongst many others.)

 

Have fun rapping with Jeffery Dahmer, David Berkowitz, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, and Pat Robertson (and other ground-breaking thinkers and moralists.)

5(*)The Father loves his Son and has put everything in his power.

3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not have life, but will remain under God's punishment.

[bluetuesday]

BT, you seem to have almost an Eastern conception of what God means to you. I don't know for sure, but if I were to hazard a guess I'd say Jesus would have told you that you were going to Gehena if he heard your ideas.

 

which jesus are you talking about? the man the bible portrays or the actual jesus christ? they're different people my friend. the genuine teachings of jesus exist only in fragmented form in the bible. to find them i had to be get to a point of being consciously prepared to know them. that took several years. before that, all i subconsciously wanted was the holy spirit to confirm what i already believed and as such, i was beyond reach. my mind was too closed. i think if people take an honest look at themselves they will see that what they're looking for from god is confirmation of what they already believe. yet, it was only when i got to the point of wanting to know truth above anything else that i started to learn.

 

people who believe the bible was inspired by god are familiar with this process of someone on the earth communicating with the holy spirit and that is all i've done. some of what's been confirmed to me, i've posted here. the fact most people choose to not ask questions themselves and trust in the bible is very sad to me. if they think the biblical version of jesus would have condemned me to hell, so what? i know what i know. and as moai is very ably pointing out in this thread, there are very many contradictions in the bible which should make anyone whose mind is not totally closed at least consider the possibility that the bible is not the true and complete word of god.

 

as for an eastern conception, i don't know a great deal about eastern religions, only the limited amount i've studied of buddhism, taoism and hindu mysticism. yes, the belief in the oneness of all life and the path to enlightenment are similar to what i've learned. i think religion in the west is, at present, far too much about fear and control. it's keeping people bound by the fear of hell if they don't agree with you and offering them the reward of heaven if they do, without requiring them to do anything to expland their consciousness. i assure you, god didn't start any religion which makes people scared of questioning it and turns them into blind followers. so i think the east beats the west hands down in that respect. the (largely) western image people hold of a vengeful god is blasphemy in its purest form. it's worshipping a graven image of god.

[lonelybird]

Godlessness in the Last Days

Remember that there will be difficult times in the last days.

3:2 People will be selfish, greedy, boastful, and conceited; they will be insulting, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, and irreligious;

3:3 they will be unkind, merciless, slanderers, violent, and fierce; they will hate the good;

3:4 they will be treacherous, reckless, and swollen with pride; they will love pleasure rather than God;

3:5 they will hold to the outward form of our religion, but reject its real power. Keep away from such people.

3:6 Some of them go into people's houses and gain control over weak women who are burdened by the guilt of their sins and driven by all kinds of desires,

3:7 women who are always trying to learn but who can never come to know the truth.

3:8 (*)As Jannes and Jambres were opposed to Moses, so also these people are opposed to the truth-people whose minds do not function and who are failures in the faith.

3:9 But they will not get very far, because everyone will see how stupid they are. That is just what happened to Jannes and Jambres.

[lonelybird]

which jesus are you talking about? the man the bible portrays or the actual jesus christ? they're different people my friend. the genuine teachings of jesus exist only in fragmented form in the bible. to find them i had to be get to a point of being consciously prepared to know them. that took several years. before that, all i subconsciously wanted was the holy spirit to confirm what i already believed and as such, i was beyond reach. my mind was too closed. i think if people take an honest look at themselves they will see that what they're looking for from god is confirmation of what they already believe. yet, it was only when i got to the point of wanting to know truth above anything else that i started to learn.

 

people who believe the bible was inspired by god are familiar with this process of someone on the earth communicating with the holy spirit and that is all i've done. some of what's been confirmed to me, i've posted here. the fact most people choose to not ask questions themselves and trust in the bible is very sad to me. if they think the biblical version of jesus would have condemned me to hell, so what? i know what i know. and as moai is very ably pointing out in this thread, there are very many contradictions in the bible which should make anyone whose mind is not totally closed at least consider the possibility that the bible is not the true and complete word of god.

 

as for an eastern conception, i don't know a great deal about eastern religions, only the limited amount i've studied of buddhism, taoism and hindu mysticism. yes, the belief in the oneness of all life and the path to enlightenment are similar to what i've learned. i think religion in the west is, at present, far too much about fear and control. it's keeping people bound by the fear of hell if they don't agree with you and offering them the reward of heaven if they do, without requiring them to do anything to expland their consciousness. i assure you, god didn't start any religion which makes people scared of questioning it and turns them into blind followers. so i think the east beats the west hands down in that respect. the (largely) western image people hold of a vengeful god is blasphemy in its purest form. it's worshipping a graven image of god.

14:16 I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, who will stay with you forever.

14:17 He is the Spirit, who reveals the truth about God. The world cannot receive him, because it cannot see him or know him. But you know him, because he remains with you and is(f) in you

3(*)When, however, the Spirit comes, who reveals the truth about God, he will lead you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own authority, but he will speak of what he hears and will tell you of things to come.

16:14 He will give me glory, because he will take what I say and tell it to you.

[Moai]

You believe God should stop these people form having abortions…

He should stop people from doing wrong things.

He should stop all evil...

God will not stop freewill.

 

It is obvious that I cannot explain free will in a way that you will grasp. Sadly, it isn't as if we disagree and that is it, but the notion of free will has been debated--and continues to be--for centuries. Some of the greatest minds to ever live dedicated their lives to understanding such a paradox.

 

Think about that for a second: Some of the greatest minds to have ever lived did nothing but sit at their desks and think about omniscience and free will. And all permutations that go with it. For virtually their entire lives.

 

Imagine what world we would have if these brilliant minds were turned loose on such things as poverty, cancer, or leukemia! How far ahead we would be! What a paradise we would live in!

 

But no, they sat at their desks, played word games and tried their best to rationalize that which cannot be rationalized, to somehow wedge their imaginary friend into a construct that would satisfy their intellects. And to a man, even upon death, they could not do it. They said so themselves, and the argument still rages. They couldn't find an answer, and so left it up to "faith".

 

I really think that they reached a point where it dawned on them that they wasted decades of their precious time on Earth considering such nonsense, but they didn't want to look like a jackass so they played the faith card and expired, hoping for some eternal reward. All the more sad because there isn't one--nobody was "born-again" in the sense believers today know it until around 1850 or so. So these great minds, wasting all their time on trivialities, still didn't measure up and are in the barbeque. Tragic.

 

He does have an ending to this mess we are in … soon Christ returns… The battle of Armageddon will destroy the Antichrist and his followers… Satan and they will be cast into the lake of fire.

 

I have an ending to this "mess" we're in that doesn't require near as much death and engenders a great deal more benefit: nobody is religious anymore! All sectarian violence would cease, and all men would strive to be as rational as possible. Pretty cool, huh? And I don't have to invoke any magic to do it. Or kill anybody. We will solve our problems through rational discourse, and evidence will dictate our decisions.

 

For the record, I am doomed to Hell for thinking such a thing. I am going to roast forever in torment unimaginable because I believe what I stated above.

 

Meanwhile, people who hate homosexuals and want to deny them rights, people who oppose medical research that can alleviate untold suffering, vaccinations that would eliminate 90% of all cervical cancer, oppose condom use in places where millions are dying of AIDS every day, blow up clinics that perform a simple medical procedure, discriminate against others because of their conscience, and wish to restrict the free inquiry of every human mind on Earth--they are the ones sitting at the right hand of God, enjoying Glory Everlasting. The book says so.

 

The book that was written 2,000 years ago by shepherds who thought that the Sun revolved around the Earth. By men who thought witches were real, and that demons could impregnate human women. By men who believed that killing a pigeon and putting the blood on a leper and then throwing the dead pigeon in a river would cure leprosy. The book that says bats are really birds. The book that says slavery is ok. The book that says women should never speak in church and should always pray with their head covered. And on and on.

 

But don't listen to me, because I reject the book and so cannot understand its beauty and the goodness and love that a being who inspires such ideas must have. I am trying to lead men astray, and into the grip of Satan.

 

Close your eyes--by force if necessary! You may gain a more prosperous and healthy life, free from the dogma of magic and fear--but you will lose your soul!

 

And Jesus will rule and reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

All things will be made new.

 

Praise Jesus!

 

Amen!

[lonelybird]

Amen!

At that time Jesus was filled with joy by the Holy Spirit(n) and said, "Father, Lord of heaven and earth! I thank you because you have shown to the unlearned what you have hidden from the wise and learned. Yes, Father, this was how you were pleased to have it happen.

10:22 (*)"My Father has given me all things. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

10:23 Then Jesus turned to the disciples and said to them privately, "How fortunate you are to see the things you see!

10:24 I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see, but they could not, and to hear what you hear, but they did not."

10:25 (*)A teacher of the Law came up and tried to trap Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to receive eternal life?"

10:26 Jesus answered him, "What do the Scriptures say? How do you interpret them?"

10:27 (*)The man answered, " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind'; and 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'"

10:28 (*)"You are right," Jesus replied; "do this and you

[lonelybird]

Amen!

You will never find God with your rational reason brain. God is not there, God is not in your box of thinking

[bluetuesday]

14:16 I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, who will stay with you forever.

14:17 He is the Spirit, who reveals the truth about God. The world cannot receive him, because it cannot see him or know him. But you know him, because he remains with you and is(f) in you

3(*)When, however, the Spirit comes, who reveals the truth about God, he will lead you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own authority, but he will speak of what he hears and will tell you of things to come.

16:14 He will give me glory, because he will take what I say and tell it to you.

 

absolutely right! he DID take what jesus said and tell it to me. jesus' REAL words, of which as i explained, the bible contains only a fragment and which jesus himself is unhappy about and would like to change.

 

lonelybird, why put your faith exclusively in the people who wrote the bible? don't trust them above god. don't trust me either. if you sincerely want to know the truth about jesus, you need to first be prepared to consider that there is no difference between jesus being unable to get through to the scribes and pharisees who thought their scripture was beyond question, and the holy spirit being unable to get through to you who thinks your scripture is beyond question. please spend some time thinking about this. when you've got to the point where you would rather know the absolute truth than a half truth, the holy spirit will be able to tell you. right now, the spirit won't go against your free will and try to teach you something you choose not to know.

 

moai - religion itself isn't the cause of war. people IN religion are the cause of war. if you took those people out of religion they would STILL fight because they have no peace in their hearts and they think they're right over whatever subject it is - land, power, money, oil. all you would have done is remove the threat of hell, which (even though it's a flawed concept) probably stops some people right now descending into physical violence.

[lonelybird]

absolutely right! he DID take what jesus said and tell it to me. jesus' REAL words, of which as i explained, the bible contains only a fragment and which jesus himself is unhappy about and would like to change.

 

lonelybird, why put your faith exclusively in the people who wrote the bible? don't trust them above god. don't trust me either. if you sincerely want to know the truth about jesus, you need to first be prepared to consider that there is no difference between jesus being unable to get through to the scribes and pharisees who thought their scripture was beyond question, and the holy spirit being unable to get through to you who thinks your scripture is beyond question. please spend some time thinking about this. when you've got to the point where you would rather know the absolute truth than a half truth, the holy spirit will be able to tell you. right now, the spirit won't go against your free will and try to teach you something you choose not to know.

 

moai - religion itself isn't the cause of war. people IN religion are the cause of war. if you took those people out of religion they would STILL fight because they have no peace in their hearts and they think they're right over whatever subject it is - land, power, money, oil. all you would have done is remove the threat of hell, which (even though it's a flawed concept) probably stops some people right now descending into physical violence.

Holy Spirirt confirmed and knew Jesus and sent by Jesus

Holy Spirit won't go against my will, but He always warn me when I go wrong

[Moai]

why go evangelize them? so they can have a life that God want them to live. Some very poor country, if you continue to give money to them, they still wouldn't get rich or have a better life. why? Spirit. they don't have hope, don't have right spirit to have a abundant life.

You talked about Islam. Why don't you yourself go to Islam country, see if they have a good happy life there. not just assume they are happy

 

So you know what life God wants them to live, even though they are happy and content the way they are. But they can't really be content, because they haven't read your book.

 

No, the countries that wouldn't benefit from the money we would throw at them would not remain poor because they don't have hope, they would remain poor because their governments take all of it and let them starve. Their governments do not care about them, and they have no means to fight back.

 

If spirit were the issue, there would no tbe Christian slaves in the Sudan.

 

I would not be happy in a Fundamentalist Muslim country, but I wouldn't be happy in a Fundamentalist Christian country, either. I only know that Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet, so it is resonating with somebody.

 

I especially find countries with Fundamentalist Muslims abhorrent, but not because they have the wrong book, but because they crush the human mind, and--dare I say--spirit.

 

But let's consider that for a second. I do not know what country you are in, but given your English I would assume that it is not your primary language--to your cresdt, as there is no way I could even hope to make myself known in any other language BUT English. But I am going to write these next paragraphs assuming you are in a Western country, or at the very least a country which shares Western ideals.

 

Beyond the happiness you enjoy from your faith, any immediate happiness you have is because of people who think like me. Not because of magic, not because of god's grace, but because of secularism.

 

Consider: Worship whatever God you want--or none--the government will never make a law telling you how to think or what to think about god.

 

Secular idea. The First Commandment is "Have no other gods before me." Every Western country violates this commandment. Individuals may not, but the society at large does. The first amendment, in the US anyway, does away with that.

 

Thou shalt not covet. The entire basis for Western economies is based on coveting. You see a better, faster, sleeker car and you want, it, so you go to work and you get it. You want a faster computer, you go out, work and you get it. Why do you want such things? Because you see other people with them, and you want them for yourself. You see the object and you see how it will benefit you. That is, you COVET it. This coveting gives people jobs, as they produce goods that people strive so hard to get. Coveting actually benefits everyone. But God thinks it is a sin. God and Jesus are commies, obviously. I have quoted enough of it to make that clear. I'll do it again, if you want.

 

Vigorous debate is good. Men should offer their ideas into the arena, and subject them to scrutiny, as nobody has a monopoly on what is right, and what is valid. Not so your belief system. Any idea that goes against the True Meaning of scripture need not be debated, it is simply wrong. No discussion necessary. If the opponent had the Holy Spirit, there would be no debate.

 

There is evidence and there is not. Provide your evidence, and we will evaluate it, and come to a reasonable conclusion. Nope. Believe or Hell, to doubt is to harbor Satan.

 

While I do appreciate our discussion on this thread, and I hope it continues, the fact remains that we are having it because of the way I think, not because of the way you think. I accept things as plausible because of evidence, you accept things as plausible because they agree with your book--no matter how outlandish or impossible. There is no evidence that can go against the book.

 

I, however, can think of any number of things that would have me abandon my beliefs tomorrow. I am open to evidence, and strive to discern how the world around me works. Your book has satisfied you somehow, and so further inquiry is unnecessary.

 

If your explanations were at all satisfying, we would not have be able to have this discussion, because computers would not exist. "God did it" kills all inquiry, and if men accepted that, the world would be in darkness.

 

But all men do not think that. Great minds strive to know, and they drag the dogmatic and magical with them--kicking and screaming, it seems, but everyone gets to enjoy the benefit.

 

Do doctors administering shots for polio ask how their patient believes? No. It is given to all who ask. Must you pass a belief test before you can buy a computer, or get an iPod? No. It would be silly to even think such a thing, right? Keep in mind that this is true for virtually everything that makes your life livable every day.

 

These things come directly from rational inquiry and free thought, unrestrained by dogma and magic, and even though you and others persist on holding on to your magical delusions, you can still enjoy the fruits of non-magical thought. Such knowledge is freely given, and it is hoped that all of it will be improved upon.

 

But your beliefs are static. It is a good thing that these beliefs are the same as they were 2,000 years ago. That makes them valid. But 2,000 years ago slavery was the norm, and nobody doubted its morality. Notice morality changes, but the book remains the same.

 

Now, Western man, at least, has concluded that slavery is abhorrent, and abolished it. Not because of magical belief; rather in spite of it. Women can vote and dress as they choose not because a book says it is ok but rather because free thinking people reached logical conclusions and challenged the irrationally held beliefs of those who believe in magic and "that's the way god made it."

 

So, as I go to bed, and dream the dreams of the damned, I would hope that you consider what I have written, and at least appreciate what men of conscience have given you--the right to think as you will about what you will, no matter how irrational or counter-productive. This is what has been earned in blood, not imaginary salvation in the hereafter.

 

I wish you well, and await your response.

[Moai]

You will never find God with your rational reason brain. God is not there, God is not in your box of thinking

 

that is true.

[Moai]

moai - religion itself isn't the cause of war. people IN religion are the cause of war. if you took those people out of religion they would STILL fight because they have no peace in their hearts and they think they're right over whatever subject it is - land, power, money, oil. all you would have done is remove the threat of hell, which (even though it's a flawed concept) probably stops some people right now descending into physical violence.

 

I would agree that there are people out there who would be less moral if not for the threat of Hell. But that number must be very, very small.

 

In the US, 4% of the population are atheists. Yet, more than 4% of the population is incarcerated, and amongst those the number of atheists is almost unmeasurable. How can this be? If god belief is central to morality, how can it be that atheists are not AT LEAST represented equally in the prison population?

 

If you look at the demographics in the US, the states with the highest number of people who believe that the Bible is inerrant and that Jesus will be coming back in the next fifty years have the highest rates of teen pregnancy, murder, drug abuse, and divorce--and abortion. I posted a thread with some recent data regarding divorce because of a believer's comment and have not seen a response. Why am I not shocked?

 

Only 21% of atheist/agnostic marriages end in divorce. The lowest of any group studied. And there is no dogmatic reason why an atheist cannot get divorced. For believers, "What the lord has made let no man turn asunder" and yet they get divorced at a rate of 35%.

 

It is naive of you to say that men make war because they have no peace in their hearts. Man is by nature warlike. Does that mean we are doomed to be perpetually at war? No. But, the only way to eliminate war is to become more rational. The most rational countries on Earth now are the most peaceful, and have the greatest percentage of atheists in their populations. I don't know if there is causal relationship or not, but there it is.

 

And I agree that religion is not the cause of all wars, but it is a damn good reason, and has been for--well, for pretty much ever. Remove religion and you remove probably the biggest reason to war. Why do the Sunnis hate the Shiites? They love the same book. But each thinks that the other is thinking about it the wrong way, and so must be slaughtered.

 

Stephen Jay Gould, one of the greatest biologists of our time, had a heated disagreement with Richard Dawkins, another pre-eminent biologist. Back and forth they would argue, neither giving quarter or asking any. When they met face to face, they shook hands, laughed, and had at each other. Nobody shot anybody, no innocent children got blown up on a bus, nobody flew a plane into a building because one held the idea of punctuated equillibrium and one did not.

 

When plate tectonics was first introduced, the scientific community rejected it, and vigorous debate ensued. There were shouting matches in geology departments all over the world. Eventually, the old way died out and all of geology is seen within the plate tectonics framework. I am saddened by the number of lives lost in those battles--oh, wait, there weren't any. Zip. Nada. Nil. I am not even aware of a fistfight about it, and it is one of the most groundbreaking ideas ever. It changed the way we understand how the very ground we stand on works. And such a huge paradigm shift occurred without a drop of blood being shed.

 

But suggest that you must pray four times a day instead of five and I'll kill your whole family.

[Moai]

5(*)The Father loves his Son and has put everything in his power.

3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not have life, but will remain under God's punishment.

 

Thank you for reiterating what I posted, albeit in a much more briefly.

 

Dahmer in Heaven, victim in Hell.

[bluetuesday]

In the US, 4% of the population are atheists. Yet, more than 4% of the population is incarcerated, and amongst those the number of atheists is almost unmeasurable. How can this be? If god belief is central to morality, how can it be that atheists are not AT LEAST represented equally in the prison population?

 

because it's perfectly possible to be moral without god, that's why. i don't claim otherwise. and it's more probable that if you're a member of a faith that can justify dualistic thinking (i.e., me being right means you must be wrong) then you can justify anything, including violence against someone.

 

i am sure that some atheists don't believe they can justify anything and as a consequence live lives in which they don't cause harm. what outer faith you put on is NO mark of the man, or woman, inside. i am also sure that when people are asked what religion they are, they say 'christian' if that's their family background, even if they live lives that are anything but.

 

that doesn't mean atheists are any closer to 'truth' than people of faith though, moai. there is more than one way to deny god.

[blind_otter]

But suggest that you must pray four times a day instead of five and I'll kill your whole family.

 

You mistake religion for religious fundamentalism, the two are entirely different animals. I would agree that fundamentalists are dangerous creatures because they parade religiosity under a veil of ignorance.

[Storyrider]

I haven't been able to read every word of this debate, but what I have seen has been very interesting.

 

Moai, I don't agree that thinking about free will and God is a fruitless pursuit. (And you don't behave as though you really believe that either, since you find it worth your time to address here.) Moreover, it is an either/or fallacy to suggest that Kierkegaard would have found the cure to cancer had he not been occupied with free will. His gifts and passions drove him in the only direction he could go. You might as well suggest Mozart should have been a dentist.

 

Most importantly, what about the paradoxes that must also arise from non-belief? There are just as many. Why should we find the cure for cancer and eliminate war if people are no more than an accident of nature? Let us kill each other to make way for a different accident, no more or less valuable than ourselves. Dust mites maybe.

[blind_otter]

Dust mites maybe.

 

Cockroaches. I read a short story about that years ago.

[Storyrider]

Cockroaches. I read a short story about that years ago.

 

That rings a bell. (Not the Kafka one). Was it science fiction? Asimov perhaps.

[lonelybird]

....

Bluetuesday

Although I don't agree with your concept about god, but I feel you have a gentle soul

God bless

[burning 4 revenge]

absolutely right! he DID take what jesus said and tell it to me. jesus' REAL words, of which as i explained, the bible contains only a fragment and which jesus himself is unhappy about and would like to change.

You know I love you BT, but sometimes I think you're more insane than I am.

[Moai]

because it's perfectly possible to be moral without god, that's why. i don't claim otherwise. and it's more probable that if you're a member of a faith that can justify dualistic thinking (i.e., me being right means you must be wrong) then you can justify anything, including violence against someone.

 

i am sure that some atheists don't believe they can justify anything and as a consequence live lives in which they don't cause harm. what outer faith you put on is NO mark of the man, or woman, inside. i am also sure that when people are asked what religion they are, they say 'christian' if that's their family background, even if they live lives that are anything but.

 

that doesn't mean atheists are any closer to 'truth' than people of faith though, moai. there is more than one way to deny god.

 

My comments about such were not specifically as a response to what you had said, but you gave me the opportunity to address a point that so far had not been repsonded to.

 

"Good men do good, bad men do bad--but to get a good man to do bad, that takes religion."

[Moai]

You mistake religion for religious fundamentalism, the two are entirely different animals. I would agree that fundamentalists are dangerous creatures because they parade religiosity under a veil of ignorance.

 

I understand that there are moderate believers out there who largely think rationally about most things.

 

I would ask what makes your definition of reasonable religion is, and then we can discuss this line of thought further.

 

I don't see rationality as a sliding scale, with fundamentalism on one end and atheism on the other. There is rational and what is irrational. Moderate faith is just as irrational as blind, fundamentalist faith. One is certainly more dangerous, but beyond that I see little distinction.

[Moai]

I haven't been able to read every word of this debate, but what I have seen has been very interesting.

 

Moai, I don't agree that thinking about free will and God is a fruitless pursuit. (And you don't behave as though you really believe that either, since you find it worth your time to address here.) Moreover, it is an either/or fallacy to suggest that Kierkegaard would have found the cure to cancer had he not been occupied with free will. His gifts and passions drove him in the only direction he could go. You might as well suggest Mozart should have been a dentist.

 

There is a difference between a man sitting at his desk, endlessly postulating just what percentage of Jesus was God, and what percentage was man, and discussing whether or not their is a god at all.

 

"Thinking about thinking" is quite different from making an assumption on no evidence, and then attempting to understand all the permutations of what that assumption might mean. And, while the man at his desk was, in my view, wasting his time, he didn't think that he was, and it is his life to spend how he wishes. However, I would say that as much fulfillment as it gave him if it helps other men at all they must share his delusion. Mozart's music uplifts all, regardless of their belief system.

 

 

Most importantly, what about the paradoxes that must also arise from non-belief? There are just as many. Why should we find the cure for cancer and eliminate war if people are no more than an accident of nature? Let us kill each other to make way for a different accident, no more or less valuable than ourselves. Dust mites maybe.

 

I am not aware of any paradox that results from my not accepting the idea of a god or god's. Can you give me an example?

[Moai]

You mistake religion for religious fundamentalism, the two are entirely different animals. I would agree that fundamentalists are dangerous creatures because they parade religiosity under a veil of ignorance.

 

Here is an article from Sam Harris that addresses this topic, and he is far more eloquent than I about the subject:

 

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/gods-dupes1/