Lost my faith, might find it again...but might not

[Moai]

Humble: When I read Bible, if I don't understand it, I would think I don't understand it at the moment, I believe at the right time God would reveal it to me.

 

Pride: when you read the Bible, you don't understand, and you think it is the Bible is wrong.

 

:p

 

I would think that a book written by God would be the most straightforward book ever written. The Bible obviously is not, so that makes me doubt its veracity right there.

 

And I know the Bible is wrong. The Genesis account of Creation is impossible. The Flood is impossible.

 

I know there are those who say those stories are supposed to be metaphorical, but Jesus thought that the Flood really happened, so that is a bit of a stretch.

[lonelybird]

Not to sidetrack this fascinating discussion too much, but I just wanted to add that Darwin was actually not an atheist at all - in his diaries, he struggles quite a lot with religion, and with how to reconcile natural selection with a belief in God. He wasn't fundamentalist but had a very strong personal faith that was challenged by his own theories, but he himself never went so far as to say he didn't believe in God. He was actually really stung by those who called him atheist in his lifetime, I think. Ultimately, he kind of choked on the issue and was unwilling to come down hard on one side or the other.

 

His words - from his diaries - are ironically evocative of a kind of proto-Intelligent Design idea (which, to me, does sound like an uneasy mashing-together of two opposing ideas):

 

"Another source of conviction in the existance of God connected with the reason and not the feelings, impresses me as having much more weight. This follows from the extreme difficulty or rather impossibility of conceiving this immense and wonderful universe, including man with his capability of looking far backwards and far into futurity, as the result of blind chance or necessity. When thus reflecting I feel compelled to look at a first cause having an intelliegent mind in some degree analogous to that of man; and I deserve to be called a theist."

 

But then he wavers some more, and ultimately doesn't decide:

 

"This conclusion was strong in my mind about the time, as far I can remember, when I wrote the Origin of species; and it is since that time that it has very gradually with many fluctuations become weaker. But then arises the doubt -- can the mind of man, which has, as I fully believe, been developed from a mind as low as the possessed by the lowest animal, be trusted when it draws such a grand conclusions? May not these be the result of the connection between cause and effect which strikes us as a necessary one, but probably depends merely on inherited experience? Nor must we overlook the probability of the constant inculcation in a belief in God on the minds of children producing so strong and perhaps an inherited effect on their brains not yet fully developed, that it would be as difficult for them to throw off their belief in God, as for a monkey to throw off its instinctive fear and hatred of a snake.

 

I cannot pretend to throw the least light on such abstruse problems. The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble to us; and I for one must be content to remain an Agnostic."

 

 

Just thought it was interesting - sorry for the sidetrack.

Maybe Hilter believed in Darwin strongly.... :confused:

[lonelybird]

Hilter and Darwin claim "strong beat weak"

Lord Jesus claim "strong protect weak, humble, pure heart, love"

 

Two different directions I see now

[lonelybird]

1 Jn 4:18There is no fear in love; perfect love drives out all fear. So then, love has not been made perfect in anyone who is afraid, because fear has to do with punishment.

 

 

Mt 18:4The greatest in the Kingdom of heaven is the one who humbles himself and becomes like this child.

 

 

Mt 5:5(1)"Happy are those who are humble; they will receive what God has promised!

Mt 11:29(1)Take my yoke and put it on you, and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in spirit; and you will find rest.

 

 

Lk 14:11(1)For those who make themselves great will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be made great."

Lk 18:14(1)I tell you," said Jesus, "the tax collector, and not the Pharisee, was in the right with God when he went home. For those who make themselves great will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be made great."

 

 

Rom 12:16(1)Have the same concern for everyone. Do not be proud, but accept humble duties. Do not think of yourselves as wise.

 

 

Eph 4:2(1)Be always humble, gentle, and patient. Show your love by being tolerant with one another.

 

 

Phil 2:3(1)Don't do anything from selfish ambition or from a cheap desire to boast, but be humble toward one another, always considering others better than yourselves.

Phil 2:8(1)He was humble and walked the path of obedience all the way to death- his death on the cross.

 

At the end the Lord is most beautiful graceful and dear to human's heart!!!

[sb129]

That's my point, NOT every religion lead people to God, most of them lead people astray from God.

 

Thats an interesting thing you have said there LonelyBird, especially as I know you are a believer. Most religions believe that THEY are right, and all disagree with eachother, which I find annoying, and is one of the many reasons why I am an atheist, so we disagree on that point as you know. (No disrespect to you)

 

Could you expand on that? I would be interested tohear why you made that statement.

[lonelybird]

Thats an interesting thing you have said there LonelyBird, especially as I know you are a believer. Most religions believe that THEY are right, and all disagree with eachother, which I find annoying, and is one of the many reasons why I am an atheist, so we disagree on that point as you know. (No disrespect to you)

 

Could you expand on that? I would be interested tohear why you made that statement.

Thank you for asking.

I know many people don't like this kind of comment. but I have to say that. Under guidance of Holy Spirit I read through many religions concepts, but everytime Holy Spirit lead me back to Jesus, Bible. If you read Bible, you know that Jesus said He will send Holy Spirit to His believers to teach them the truth about God about Jesus. It is true. Holy Spirit in me as same as many other Christians who have Holy Spirit have same experience. Holy Spirit confirmed Jesus is our Lord who lead us to soul salvation, and confirmed that Jesus is the Messiah in the Old Testament. Do you think I can speak this kind of comment on my own term? NO. If Holy Spirit did not confirm me this, I won't dare to say so.

 

I didn't mean mistreat anyone who believe in other religions, but I have to speak the truth Holy Spirit told me and Bible told me, I just speak, we sow seeds, but it is God who convert people's heart, not us.

[Moai]

Hilter and Darwin claim "strong beat weak"

Lord Jesus claim "strong protect weak, humble, pure heart, love"

 

Two different directions I see now

 

The theory of Evolution (even Darwin's which has been modified) does not say "strong beat weak".

 

What "survival of the fittest" means, is best adapted for the particular environment. An organism that is best suited to its environment will be able to pass its genes along to the next generation. Simple.

 

Hitler did believe in the idea that the Aryans were ordained by God to rule the world because they were superior, but he didn't get that from Darwin. He got it from Neitzche more than anyone.

 

It is called "social Darwinism", true, but that is a perversion of what Darwin proposed, or believed. It is the same with eugenics. Look up the people who thought eugenics was a good idea, and you'll be shocked. Yet again, a lack of science education got lots and lots of people into trouble.

[sb129]

You are absolutely right Moai.

 

Its also another example of "selective" interpretation.

 

Selective interpretation + limited scientific knowledge + impressionable people = danger

[Storyrider]

Pardon me for hijacking, but, Moai, (and anyone else who hasn't) you should post on my Beatles thread.

[burning 4 revenge]

[quote=Moai;1126846

Hitler did believe in the idea that the Aryans were ordained by God to rule the world because they were superior, but he didn't get that from Darwin. He got it from Neitzche more than anyone.

 

Nietzsche has become misunderstood, because the Nazis selectively read his texts, just as they did Darwin. I don't know how familiar Hitler was with Darwin...he certainly was familiar with Nietzsche, but some of his anthropologists used Darwinism as a justification for the final solution. If I had more time I'd research it, but I've seen it in several sources.

 

As far as Nietzsche goes there's a segment of a letter he wrote to his sister where he chastizes his sister for socializing with anti-semites. He even claimed that his reputation suffered for conemning bigots like Richard Wagner. It's rather touching and sad I think that his name has been dragged through the mud, but some of his work does reflect a longing to seperate German culture from Judeo-Christianity and re-awaken its Teutonic roots. So perhaps it's unfair, but it has to do with isolating his words selectively.

 

The letter I referenced is in the WIkipedia article about him

[Moai]

Nietzsche has become misunderstood, because the Nazis selectively read his texts, just as they did Darwin. I don't know how familiar Hitler was with Darwin...he certainly was familiar with Nietzsche, but some of his anthropologists used Darwinism as a justification for the final solution. If I had more time I'd research it, but I've seen it in several sources.

 

As far as Nietzsche goes there's a segment of a letter he wrote to his sister where he chastizes his sister for socializing with anti-semites. He even claimed that his reputation suffered for conemning bigots like Richard Wagner. It's rather touching and sad I think that his name has been dragged through the mud, but some of his work does reflect a longing to seperate German culture from Judeo-Christianity and re-awaken its Teutonic roots. So perhaps it's unfair, but it has to do with isolating his words selectively.

 

The letter I referenced is in the WIkipedia article about him

 

Absolutely correct. I didn't mean to imply that Nietzsche=National Socialism. It's clear that they thought so, but they were wrong. Go figure.

[lonelybird]

Yet again, a lack of science education got lots and lots of people into trouble.

what kind of trouble?

[Moai]

what kind of trouble?

 

Oh, I don't know, death, oppression, that kind of thing.

 

In Africa priests do not explain contraception to the people there because in their opinion god doesn't like it. So millions die of AIDS because of a lack of education about condoms. Something as simple as that.

 

My uncle is a gynecologist, and he saw a couple that was having trouble conceiving. Eventually, he found out that the man was urinating inside his wife, not ejaculating. They were so ignorant about reproduction they never would have had a child.

 

Beyond that, a science education teaches people to think critically, so they won't accept anything just because someone in a lab coat makes a claim. How many millions have been wasted by people buying magnet therapy devices? People who don't understand medicine will seek alternative therapies that could end up killing them, or doing nothing when a proper treatment may have helped them live longer.

 

If more people thought critically, men like Robert Tilton and Creflo Dollar wouldn't fleece people for millions every year.

[Storyrider]

My uncle is a gynecologist, and he saw a couple that was having trouble conceiving. Eventually, he found out that the man was urinating inside his wife, not ejaculating.

 

Wow. Honey, you're so hot, you make me want to...pee.

 

Something basic is not right there.

[lonelybird]

People! Please don't selectively miss out this, this is not that dangerous as you thought:D Education is a good thing, but high education doesn't serve to puff self up.

 

Humble + love = Christ like -- godly people

 

 

1 Jn 4:18There is no fear in love; perfect love drives out all fear. So then, love has not been made perfect in anyone who is afraid, because fear has to do with punishment.

 

Mt 18:4 The greatest in the Kingdom of heaven is the one who humbles himself and becomes like this child.

 

Mt 5:5(1)"Happy are those who are humble; they will receive what God has promised

 

Mt 11:29(1)Take my yoke and put it on you, and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in spirit; and you will find rest.

 

14:11(1)For those who make themselves great will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be made great

 

(1)I tell you," said Jesus, "the tax collector, and not the Pharisee, was in the right with God when he went home. For those who make themselves great will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be made great

 

Rom 12:16(1)Have the same concern for everyone. Do not be proud, but accept humble duties. Do not think of yourselves as wise

 

Eph 4:2(1)Be always humble, gentle, and patient. Show your love by being tolerant with one another.

 

Phil 2:3(1)Don't do anything from selfish ambition or from a cheap desire to boast, but be humble toward one another, always considering others better than yourselves.

 

Phil 2:8(1)He was humble and walked the path of obedience all the way to death- his death on the cross

 

1(*)The message you heard from the very beginning is this: we must love one another.

 

3:12 (*)We must not be like Cain; he belonged to the Evil One and murdered his own brother Abel. Why did Cain murder him? Because the things he himself did were wrong, and the things his brother did were right

 

3:13 So do not be surprised, my friends, if the people of the world hate you.

 

3:14 (*)We know that we have left death and come over into life; we know it because we love others. Those who do not love are still under the power of death.

 

3:15 Those who hate others are murderers, and you know that murderers do not have eternal life in them.

 

3:16 This is how we know what love is: Christ gave his life for us. We too, then, ought to give our lives for others!

 

Dear friends, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Whoever loves is a child of God and knows God.

 

4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love.

 

4:9 And God showed his love for us by sending his only Son into the world, so that we might have life through him.

 

4:10 This is what love is: it is not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the means by which our sins are forgiven

 

4:11 Dear friends, if this is how God loved us, then we should love one another.

 

4:12 (*)No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God lives in union with us, and his love is made perfect in us

[Moai]

lonelybird, you seem like a very nice person, but I have no idea what education has to do with being humble. And you mention humility quite often.

[lonelybird]

lonelybird, you seem like a very nice person, but I have no idea what education has to do with being humble. And you mention humility quite often.

Because I saw pride all over the board.

 

Self-righteousness is a sign of pride. My previous post touched this point.

 

Strive to be better than other people through higher education, higher position, more money are signs of pride. when you said "the people who has high education level are people who don't believe in God", or "the women who is nerdy are the ones who you should marry", you will see how many people will flock in this category for just showing they are higher. BECAUSE if you don't want to be better than others, you don't even care if you have higher education or others have less education, you would think ALL are same.

BUT in fact, in reality many ungodly people who got high education are the ones who are very pride

 

Claim to have better gene than other people is a sign of pride.

 

Try to sell own cleverness is a sign of pride.

 

Could not hear God's voice is a sign of pride.

 

Pride produce many problems in this earth. and God hate pride. because if a person is pride, God cannot do anything with him/her. If she/he is so full, how can God put anything into her/him?

[Moai]

Because I saw pride all over the board.

 

Self-righteousness is a sign of pride. My previous post touched this point.

 

Strive to be better than other people through higher education, higher position, more money are signs of pride.

 

Better than other people? How can an education make you a "better" person, in the way that you mean it? I don't know anyone who thinks this way. A man who is rich is not better than I am, just as a man who has less is worse.

 

when you said "the people who has high education level are people who don't believe in God", or "the women who is nerdy are the ones who you should marry", you will see how many people will flock in this category for just showing they are higher.

 

Yes, people with a higher education are less likely to believe in god. 97% of National Academy of Sciences members do not believe in god, and when you look at Nobel laureates that number drops to near zero. And, people cannot "flock" to this category, as it takes years of work to become educated. It is difficult to pretend to be educated amongst people who are.

 

I recall the thread about marrying nerdy girls, and I didn't initiate it. I would like to marry a nerdy girl because I myself am mostly a nred, and I find nerdy girls attractive. I found the thread to be largely in jest in any event, and I don't think men are going to go around marrying nerdy girls to make themselves "better" than others. Rich men usually have trophy wives, because they can afford them. And, if both sides are amenable, more power to them. I'm not into it, but its a free country.

 

BECAUSE if you don't want to be better than others, you don't even care if you have higher education or others have less education, you would think ALL are same.

BUT in fact, in reality many ungodly people who got high education are the ones who are very pride

 

I do think they are all the same. I can admire someone's achievements academically and respect them for it, but not think of them as "better." It seems you think that because I like rational thinking so much I cannot understand morality, or what makes someone a "good" person.

 

There is honor in all work. A man who picks up garbage for a living is providing a vital public service, and should be proud of doing that. I myself was a garbageman for one summer to put myself through school. The guys I knew then were some of the best people I have ever known. As long as you work hard and honestly, treat your family and others with respect and love, you are a good person.

 

I also believe in democracy. As long as you are over 18, your vote counts the same as mine, education or not.

 

Claim to have better gene than other people is a sign of pride.

 

Huh? Evolution is about species, not individuals.

 

Try to sell own cleverness is a sign of pride.

 

Could not hear God's voice is a sign of pride.

 

Or, don't agree with my preconceived notions is a sign of pride. Just because I disagree with your particular belief system doesn't make me prideful. It just means that I don't see any evidence for it. And, I am amazed you do. That doesn't make me better than you, either.

 

Pride produce many problems in this earth. and God hate pride. because if a person is pride, God cannot do anything with him/her. If she/he is so full, how can God put anything into her/him?

 

Which implies that it is impossible for god to work with the prideful. SO, yet again, we have something that is impossible for god.

 

Pride has caused problems here on Earth, mainly for the individuals who have it. But religion, and more specifically YOUR religion, has caused many more. Humans are fallible, yet we can cease to make the same mistakes, and correct ongoing ones.

[sb129]

Great post Moai.

 

I have a high level of education, my BF and I are both science geeks, and you are right, we have been taught to think in a crtitical manner. This is why we both have such difficulty believing in God, and especially believing in religions, alot of whom rely on humbleness and lower levels of education so they can get their messages to the masses without being questioned.

I don't think I am better than anyone else, nor do I have superior genes, but by virtue of who I am as a person, I won't just accept "ideas".

 

My mind works in a way that is ALWAYS going to question new ideas, facts and figures. It has been taught to evaluate data and analysis, and by doing that, I will be able to make up my own mind, and be comfortable with that, rather than just believing something because it "just is".

 

This also means that I am open to changing my mind should new evidence/ ideas etc come to light- this is how we as a species can correct our mistake as Moai said. This is what MAKES us human.

I am not so rigid in my beliefs and opinions that I will ignore others or ignore new information.

Like you LonelyBird- I don't believe in God, but I do like listening to what you have to say, because you listen to me. LoveHurts on the other hand really won't listen or read anything that isn't of her specific view, and keeps trying to change peoples minds via her incessant scripture quoting.

[Moai]

lonelybird, I have some quotes here. I would like you to hazard a guess as to when they were written and by whom, if you can. This isn't some sort of test, nor am I trying to make you look foolish.

 

#1[if the gods listened to the prayers of men, all humankind would quickly perish since they constantly pray for many evils to befall one another.

 

#2

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?

#3

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.

#4

There are all kinds of devices invented for the protection and preservation of countries: defensive barriers, forts, trenches and the like. All these are the work of human hands aided by money. But prudent minds have as a natural gift one safegaurd which is the common possession of all, especially to the dealings of democracies with dictatorships. What is this safeguard? Skepticism. This you must preserve. This you must retain. If you can keep this, you need fear no harm.

And one last one:

#5

Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.

I await your response, and any commentary you would be so kind as to provide.

[lonelybird]

Pride has caused problems here on Earth, mainly for the individuals who have it. But religion, and more specifically YOUR religion, has caused many more. Humans are fallible, yet we can cease to make the same mistakes, and correct ongoing ones.

It is NOT my religion cause problems, but lack of my religion and spiritual fruits cause problems. Human nature can go anywhere even in religion cloak. You read Bible, you shouldn't rise such question because that is not what Bible about.

 

Do you see we human being cease to make the same mistakes? no, hisory replay again and again. Science improved greatly, times go by, but human being is not changed, just same as ancient people. I don't find science and scholar degree can console me, but I did found that God and Bible can console me. Science has nothing to do with human heart. but God does.

[sb129]

We DO cease to make some of the same mistakes!

 

And not just in the fields on science, although medicine (among other things) has advanced greatly.

We have nearly eradicated biblical diseases such as leprosy and the plague.

 

 

But if I may now quote scripture "there will be poor always"

 

As long as humans exist there will be pain and suffering and mistakes made.

Its what makes us human, and for that to end will mean an end to mankind.

And I just can't accept that this is all some divine plan. If God exists and loves us so much, then how come some people have it so bad through no fault of their own.

I can't believe that "God" allows that to happen to "teach us a lesson" if thats true we have been taught lessons since the beginning of time- and things like earthquakes, droughts, etc happened long before people wre about to interpret them as some kind of sign.

 

The MISTAKES we continue to make is to believe in a nonexistant deity and then argue that OUR religion is the BEST one, and fight eachother over it. Thats history repeating itself.

We haven't learnt that religion is the root cause of alot of our problems, and done something about it ie: GOT RID OF IT.

[lonelybird]

lonelybird, I have some quotes here. I would like you to hazard a guess as to when they were written and by whom, if you can. This isn't some sort of test, nor am I trying to make you look foolish.

 

 

 

And one last one:

I await your response, and any commentary you would be so kind as to provide.

I said many times, love God, Believe in God and produce spiritual fruits are not about killing, murder. what are spiritual fruits?

 

Spiritual fruits (this is all Jesus taught us about, He want us to have more spiritual fruits): Love, trust, faith, honest, righteousness, endurance, patience, gentle, forgiveness, meek…

Human nature (our flesh): Physical desires, hatred, unforgiveness, strife, jealous, merciless, unkind, merciless, slanderers, violent, and fierce selfish, greedy, boastful, distrust, and conceited

 

Do you see??

What is good as to the unity when human are led by flesh? Unity itself cannot solve problems, but unity can produce rebel and pride.

 

I would like to answer your quoted questions rather than guess who is the author.

 

If the gods listened to the prayers of men, all humankind would quickly perish since they constantly pray for many evils to befall one another

Who do you think God is? you think God is not smarter than a clever fellow? Man pray, and leave the consequence to God. According to Bible teaching, we should pray according to God's will, not our selfish will. what is God's will? Love your neightbor, quick to forgive as God forgive you, spiritual fruits

 

2

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?

 

We all have to pass tests in life. like refining gold.

 

Can a pot ask potter why He made it this way or that way? if cannot, why waste time to ask such a question. The best the pot can do is that walk into its destiny with a positive attitude, rather than whining

 

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.

 

Here by this definition the religion became a cult, and have nothing to do with Love God. Before I mentioned that conformity is very dangerous. Conformity exist in every country. When a powerful man says "we should kill xxx certain people", many people would follow. BUT a God fearing people will NOT do that. Do you see???? Because of the weak connection with God people would do crazy things. they follow trend, they do same thing not because the thing is right but because other people do so! they don't fear consequences, they don't fear punishment from God when they do wrong things. but they fear people around them, because of the fear of people, people would do things against God's will even agianst their own will

[lonelybird]

We DO cease to make some of the same mistakes!

 

And not just in the fields on science, although medicine (among other things) has advanced greatly.

We have nearly eradicated biblical diseases such as leprosy and the plague.

 

 

But if I may now quote scripture "there will be poor always"

 

As long as humans exist there will be pain and suffering and mistakes made.

Its what makes us human, and for that to end will mean an end to mankind.

And I just can't accept that this is all some divine plan. If God exists and loves us so much, then how come some people have it so bad through no fault of their own.

I can't believe that "God" allows that to happen to "teach us a lesson" if thats true we have been taught lessons since the beginning of time- and things like earthquakes, droughts, etc happened long before people wre about to interpret them as some kind of sign.

 

The MISTAKES we continue to make is to believe in a nonexistant deity and then argue that OUR religion is the BEST one, and fight eachother over it. Thats history repeating itself.

We haven't learnt that religion is the root cause of alot of our problems, and done something about it ie: GOT RID OF IT.

I just read this today, quite interesting, here Job (a man in Bible) took a very positive attitude toward suffering.

 

Job has a proper theology of nakedness that says, "Everything is God’s. I am only given my possessions on a temporary loan from God and if He wants them back it is okay."

 

1. We learn that God is both all-loving as well as all-powerful. A lot of people seem to think that God must be either one or the other. Either He must be a God of love but He isn’t all-powerful, or else He must be a sovereign and all-powerful God who isn’t very nice. Job teaches us that He is both powerful and good. Evil enters the world, not through the hands of God, but through Satan. And although Satan is able to perform his deeds, it is only at the permission of God and only as God has allowed him to work.
   
2. When you face suffering and tragedy, it is good to express your grief and your trouble to God, but do not think that you are in a position to pass judgment upon God. Job himself learned that lesson.

Then Job answered the LORD, and said, "I know that Thou canst do all things, And that no purpose of Thine can be thwarted. ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know." (Job 42:1-3).

There is no neutrality when it comes to judging between God and man. Either we are in a position to judge God or else God is in a position to judge us. Job learned the lesson that God is our judge and he learned to allow God to be God.

That is why God asked Job all those rhetorical questions:

• • Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
    
  • Did you have a hand in creating the seas and the oceans?
    
  • Were you there when I made day and night?
    
  • Did you set a day at 24 hours?
    
  • Did you place the stars in the sky? Can you move them about by the strength of your own will?

The point is that God knows a lot more about the workings of His universe than you do. And that brings us to our second point

[sb129]

Spiritual fruits (this is all Jesus taught us about, He want us to have more spiritual fruits): Love, trust, faith, honest, righteousness, endurance, patience, gentle, forgiveness, meek…

Human nature (our flesh): Physical desires, hatred, unforgiveness, strife, jealous, merciless, unkind, merciless, slanderers, violent, and fierce selfish, greedy, boastful, distrust, and conceited

 

LB- you can still have the "spiritual" fruits you are talking about without believing in God. I experience love, patience, trust, honesty on a daily basis.

Animals display some of the things you were talking about in the second list- they aren't exclusive to humans.

Animals can be jealous, they can be violent, they can be merciless, they can be greedy and many have physical desires. And as far as I know, there are no animal religions or Gods.

 

Still not convinced I am afraid.