Lost my faith, might find it again...but might not

[lonelybird]

LB- you can still have the "spiritual" fruits you are talking about without believing in God. I experience love, patience, trust, honesty on a daily basis.

Animals display some of the things you were talking about in the second list- they aren't exclusive to humans.

Animals can be jealous, they can be violent, they can be merciless, they can be greedy and many have physical desires. And as far as I know, there are no animal religions or Gods.

 

Still not convinced I am afraid.

haha, you convinced me, we are different from animals and not changed from an ape (or I used wrong word), we are made in God's image. We human being have this Spiritual part, but animal don't.

[sb129]

Are you sure about that? Animals also show love and trust.

 

We aren't descended from apes either, they are our closest relatives as a species, we have evolved alongside them.

There is lots of scientific evidence to support this.

If God did make us in his image,then how do you explain the hominid fossils that link us to the common ancestor we share with apes?

[sunshinegirl]

When a powerful man says "we should kill xxx certain people", many people would follow. BUT a God fearing people will NOT do that.

 

Yowza, lonelybird, what then do you make of Pres Bush's war in Iraq? The majority of Americans self-identify as Christians...and the majority of Americans supported the war in Iraq when it began.

 

Do you consider Pres Bush to be God fearing? I used to, but I'm not so sure anymore.

[Moai]

It is NOT my religion cause problems, but lack of my religion and spiritual fruits cause problems. Human nature can go anywhere even in religion cloak. You read Bible, you shouldn't rise such question because that is not what Bible about.

 

No, that's what YOU think that's what the Bible is about. Go to the library and read a few books on the history of the Christian church.

 

Even today, as I have mentioned before: Clerics oppose the HPV vaccine because, in their mind, it will encourage pre-marital sex. SO they would rather women die a lingering death from cervical cancer than prevent such suffering with a relatively painless shot. Do you not see this as a problem?

 

Fundamentalists want their religion taught as science in schools. When teachers instruct their children about basic biology, they freak out, and so biology is either not taught at all, or in such a way as to make it meaningless. The US, the most religious of Western countries, ranks just above Turkey in science education. As science and technology develop at an exponential rate, the children of this country are falling behind. It is only a matter of time before the US becomes a backwater of ignorant theists, ready to fall prey to any better developed country. It may already be that way. I think that this is a BIG problem.

 

Do you see we human being cease to make the same mistakes? no, hisory replay again and again. Science improved greatly, times go by, but human being is not changed, just same as ancient people. I don't find science and scholar degree can console me, but I did found that God and Bible can console me. Science has nothing to do with human heart. but God does.

 

There hasn't been a war in Europe in sixty years. Small pox doesn't exist anymore. Slavery has been abolished (at least in the West). Women can vote.

 

Just because religion consoles you, it does not follow that it is real--or even attractive. And it would seem that the only consolation it gives you that rational thought does not is a belief in immortality.

[Moai]

I said many times, love God, Believe in God and produce spiritual fruits are not about killing, murder. what are spiritual fruits?

 

Spiritual fruits (this is all Jesus taught us about, He want us to have more spiritual fruits): Love, trust, faith, honest, righteousness, endurance, patience, gentle, forgiveness, meek…

Human nature (our flesh): Physical desires, hatred, unforgiveness, strife, jealous, merciless, unkind, merciless, slanderers, violent, and fierce selfish, greedy, boastful, distrust, and conceited

 

Do you see??

What is good as to the unity when human are led by flesh? Unity itself cannot solve problems, but unity can produce rebel and pride.

 

What you mention as "spiritual fruits" are human nature, too.

 

I would like to answer your quoted questions rather than guess who is the author.

 

Who do you think God is? you think God is not smarter than a clever fellow? Man pray, and leave the consequence to God. According to Bible teaching, we should pray according to God's will, not our selfish will. what is God's will? Love your neightbor, quick to forgive as God forgive you, spiritual fruits

 

I don't believe that god exists, so he is nobody. One of the reasons why is because he is not very clever.

 

The first quote was written by Epicurus who lived in 300 b.c.e. That is almost 400 years before Christ was born. And his comments about prayer then are just as true today.

 

We all have to pass tests in life. like refining gold.

 

I agree.

 

Can a pot ask potter why He made it this way or that way? if cannot, why waste time to ask such a question. The best the pot can do is that walk into its destiny with a positive attitude, rather than whining

 

Well, I don't see any whining in that quote myself. It is Epicurus again. It addresses the Nature of God, and he's right. You can say all you want about test, and that God wants us to have free will and on and on, but Epicurus' assertion still stands. And he wrote that before your god was even born. And there is still no satisfactory answer to it from theists.

 

And while I do think that it is reasonable to ask questions of the potter (if he exists) because according to you he wants me to believe in him. I don't because god is a logically flawed concept.

 

Here by this definition the religion became a cult, and have nothing to do with Love God. Before I mentioned that conformity is very dangerous. Conformity exist in every country. When a powerful man says "we should kill xxx certain people", many people would follow. BUT a God fearing people will NOT do that. Do you see????

 

No, I do not see. That has never happened, ever. The Germans wrote, "God is with Us" on their gear during the war. All participating countries did something similar. The Crusades were specifically religious. Now, you can claim that none of these people were truly religious, but you'd be wrong.

 

The one non-violent revolution I can think of, that I already mentioned once, by the way, was the one led by Ghandi. And he was a Hindu. By your definition, I should be Hindu, because they are non-violent (they are, but that's another thread.) Ghandi is in Hell, by the way.

 

Because of the weak connection with God people would do crazy things. they follow trend, they do same thing not because the thing is right but because other people do so! they don't fear consequences, they don't fear punishment from God when they do wrong things. but they fear people around them, because of the fear of people, people would do things against God's will even agianst their own will

 

I find it amazing that you think that it is possible to do anything against god's will, if he exists. All the consolation that god gives you in your heart also must deaden your mind. I am not trying to be insulting, but you hold so many contradictory ideas in your head at once, I wouldn't believe it possible unless I read it for myself.

 

And you left off my last two quotes. The one about skepticism was written by Demosthenes, at around 400 b.c.e. 2500 years ago!

 

The one about Christianity was written by Thomas Jefferson, about 200 years ago. He's a hero of mine, so I thought I'd just toss one in there.

 

My point being that the ideas that I agree with have been around for a long, long time, in some cases longer than your religion has been around. How is it that ideas like that so easily apply to your beliefs, when your beliefs weren't even invented?

[Moai]

haha, you convinced me, we are different from animals and not changed from an ape (or I used wrong word), we are made in God's image. We human being have this Spiritual part, but animal don't.

 

We are not different from animals, we ARE animals. There are things that separate us from other species making us unique, but that is true for all of them.

 

And new studies have shown that animals may have a "spiritual" component. Animals can be altruistic, just like people can.

[Topper]

lonelybird, The very fact that you can read and write shows that you benefit from an Education. The fact that you can have your own Bible to read means that you have benefited from Science and Engineering.

All these things were opposed by the Christian Chruch.

[Moai]

I just read this today, quite interesting, here Job (a man in Bible) took a very positive attitude toward suffering.

 

The rest of your post didn't make the quote for some reason.

 

God obviously doesn't know as much about the Universe He created than I do.

 

Some examples:

 

The Bible says that the Sun revolves around the Earth. False.

 

The Bible says that a flood happened that covered the Earth in water. Such a flood is impossible, and therefore false.

 

The Bible says that if you kill pigeons in a certain way and wipe their blood on a leper and throw it in the river, it will cure leprosy. That doesn't work, obviously, nor has it ever worked. False.

 

The Bible says that there are trees that produce fruit that imparts knowledge and eternal life to those who eat it. This is nonsensical, as well as being impossible. False.

 

The Bible says that the dead can be reanimated. This happens more times in the Bible than just with Jesus. While it is true that with modern medical science death is being pushed back farther and farther, but at the time of the writing of the Bible, such was not the case. False.

[Moai]

lonelybird, The very fact that you can read and write shows that you benefit from an Education. The fact that you can have your own Bible to read means that you have benefited from Science and Engineering.

All these things were opposed by the Christian Chruch.

 

I never thought of that last one. Good point.

[sb129]

It makes me soooooooooooooooooooooooooo mad that fundamentalist pseudo-science is being taught in schools.

 

These fundamentalists still want doctors right? to name but ONE of the professions that requires a science education at school.

 

They want roads, buildings, healthcare, food, healthy crops, sanitation, livestock, communications, finances, books, music, movies, transport, entertainment, clothing, shoes, clean water.............and so on ad infinitum.

If science isn't being taught properly in schools, who is going to continue to do all these things? God? ((scoffs)))

 

Moai, could you tell me which of yours posts the abovementioned quotes are in, I haven't read them but would like to.

[sb129]

lonelybird, The very fact that you can read and write shows that you benefit from an Education. The fact that you can have your own Bible to read means that you have benefited from Science and Engineering.

All these things were opposed by the Christian Chruch.

 

Excellent point. Need I add the internet and computers?

 

The Mormons have a big festival every year at the hill in New York state where their founder supposedly dug up some golden plates, translated them into the book of mormon, and then they were convieniently reclaimed by god.

 

This festival has a laser light show, live music, special effects, mass praying....

 

all of which are feats of engineering and physics.... Many of the laws of physics are "contradicted" by the book of mormon.

 

we could bring up examples for the rest of the year and beyond.....

[Topper]

Book of Mormon also contradicts Genetics, Linguistics, Anthropology, Archeology and a few other sciences. But whos counting!

[sb129]

Book of Mormon could quite possibly be one of the biggest piles of **** I have ever heard of.

Not just the content- the way it came about... yes we could be here all day.

[Moai]

It makes me soooooooooooooooooooooooooo mad that fundamentalist pseudo-science is being taught in schools.

 

These fundamentalists still want doctors right? to name but ONE of the professions that requires a science education at school.

 

They want roads, buildings, healthcare, food, healthy crops, sanitation, livestock, communications, finances, books, music, movies, transport, entertainment, clothing, shoes, clean water.............and so on ad infinitum.

If science isn't being taught properly in schools, who is going to continue to do all these things? God? ((scoffs)))

 

Moai, could you tell me which of yours posts the abovementioned quotes are in, I haven't read them but would like to.

 

They are in post #495.

 

Your post here is excellent, and spot on. It also amazes me that Fundies have no problems with areas of science that don't bump against their book (and they used to, but rationality won out), but somehow science is wrong with regards to biology.

 

I have noticed that not only do they NOT understand even the most basic concepts involved, they are completely ignorant of the evidence to support modern biological thought.

 

They can't even agree on what their book says or means, or even how to get to Heaven (although they are all sure they have the right answer), but within the scientific community there is no debate whatsoever that evolution is a fact. There is a great deal of debate about how it works--and always will be--but everyone agrees that it happens.

 

There is so much evidence that to deny it is really very silly. And all educated, sane people think so.

[Moai]

Book of Mormon could quite possibly be one of the biggest piles of **** I have ever heard of.

Not just the content- the way it came about... yes we could be here all day.

 

You have got to see the movie! It is hilarious. My sister and I went and saw it in the theater. We sat in the back so we could make sarcastic comments and not disturb the believers, and lo and behold a buddy of mine was there doing the same thing with a couple of his friends.

 

If you visit the website and read the comments (http://www.bookofmormonmovie.com) you'll be amazed. Women telling their children it is true, what a great witnessing tool it is, and all the rest. Great stuff.

[Storyrider]

You have got to see the movie! It is hilarious. My sister and I went and saw it in the theater. We sat in the back so we could make sarcastic comments and not disturb the believers, and lo and behold a buddy of mine was there doing the same thing with a couple of his friends.

 

If you visit the website and read the comments (www.bookofmormonmovie.com) you'll be amazed. Women telling their children it is true, what a great witnessing tool it is, and all the rest. Great stuff.

 

I am picturing a dark figure in the back of the theater shaped like your avatar (is it an Easter Island statue?) making wise cracks, like the theological version of Mystery Science Theater.

[burning 4 revenge]

Who cares about the Book of Mormon? It's not like anyone with any potential power believes that stuff.

[pricillia]

That's my point, NOT every religion lead people to God, most of them lead people astray from God.

 

 

How do you know that?

[Moai]

I am picturing a dark figure in the back of the theater shaped like your avatar (is it an Easter Island statue?) making wise cracks, like the theological version of Mystery Science Theater.

 

Ha! I am something of a hulking figure (6'5", about 250), and I do have my avatar tattooed on my right forearm (got the tattoo before the avatar:rolleyes:), so your prediction is accurate.

 

What's great is we didn't even get to the theological stuff. The story is so vapid it makes Battlefield Earth look like Citizen Cane.

[Moai]

Who cares about the Book of Mormon? It's not like anyone with any potential power believes that stuff.

 

Ha!

 

It bums me out that 90% of Americans would rather vote for a homosexual from another party than an atheist from their own. Nothing against homosexuals, but given how hated they are and people hate ME more than they hate gays....it gives one pause. And all I do is reject their imaginary friend.

 

Sometimes is is tough to have a positive outlook about the future.

[lonelybird]

Hi, gentlemen and ladies

You are all defeated if you continue this way

 

"Your blood be on your own hands! I am innocent"

 

Familar with this one?

[lonelybird]

Tragedy can serve as a wake-up call.

 

C.S. Lewis described pain as "God’s megaphone to a deaf world." We live in a nation that has been increasingly deaf to the Word of God. There is a message that is being delivered to us. It is a message designed to call us to repentance.

 

Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And He answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered this fate? I tell you, no, but, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." (Luke 13:1-3).

[burning 4 revenge]

Ha!

 

It bums me out that 90% of Americans would rather vote for a homosexual from another party than an atheist from their own. Nothing against homosexuals, but given how hated they are and people hate ME more than they hate gays....it gives one pause. And all I do is reject their imaginary friend.

 

Sometimes is is tough to have a positive outlook about the future.

Most of the political candidates who run are atheist, but pretend to be religious for the benefit of popular support. I'm convinced of this.

[Storyrider]

Moai, you may have seen this story in the news today.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/03/21/math.puzzle.solved.ap/

 

I think it provides an interesting secular parallel to your description of the philosophers who spent their lifetimes contemplating the puzzle of free will versus an omniscient God.

 

I still don't at all grant that they were wasting their time. But, as the last line in this article says:

 

"the calculation does not have any obvious practical applications..."

[sb129]

Most of the political candidates who run are atheist, but pretend to be religious for the benefit of popular support. I'm convinced of this.

 

Georgie W believes in god...

 

And the Mormons are multiplying......