Lost my faith, might find it again...but might not

[Island Girl]

In fact, I've seen many prayers answered by God.

 

Then please get on praying for those poor baby seals in Canada - and those starving in the Sudan - and the children born with leukemia - oh well - All of it or some of it...

 

Because as you say all of your prayers get answered.

 

I can't wait to read the newspapers in the next few days!

[Moai]

Did I say 'abandon' science? No. But if we talk about God, God is out of the range of science and rational thinking. You can use rational thinking and science to serve you, but if you are limited by it, you are living under the bondage of it. not make use of it. Do you see it?

 

Actually no, I don't. I don't think that everything can be explained using science, but the natural world can.

 

Tell me, do you agree that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old (at least)?

 

 

There is a living God. Because Holy Spirit who is living inside of believers confirm us. The Bible talk about Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit talk about Bible and about Jesus, Jesus has to die and rise to send Holy Spirit to believers. Three say SAME THING. In fact in the Old Testament talked about Jesus's rise after death at many places.

 

Really? Quote some. Any one will do.

 

Seems you and Island Girl stuck with the free will. All I see is you want to do things against God's will, then don't want to take responsibilities for yourself.

 

By definition I can't do anything against God's will.

 

It's like I want to commit adultery, but no, I didn't do wrong, because God already knows what I am going to do. Does this make sense to you?

 

No, that doesn't make sense. It isn't that I didn't do anything wrong, it's that no matter what I do He knows before I do it, so my will isn't free. It is that simple.

 

It isn't as if by denying we have free will I am denying that God won't punish me for my actions; the point is that if God already knows the outcome, I am not making a decision at all.

 

If you insist that God can decide for you, then Does God have to decide which fruit you should eat? apple or orange? which woman you should marry? I don't think you want to be ordered to marry one you don't want to. Then why concerning chose God or not, God have to make decision for you?

 

It isn't that God is making the decision for me, it is that I have no real decision at all. If God knows who I am going to marry, I have no say in the matter, even if to me it SEEMS like I do. There is no possible way I can marry someone else, as God already KNOWS who I will marry. See?

 

When I reach for an apple, God already knows that I ate an apple. He already knows if I am going to Heaven or not. He knows what I will have for breakfast tomorrow. Get it? And even though I have the illusory experience of making a decision, it really isn't a decision at all, as the choice has already been made.

[Island Girl]

You don't even believe there is a living God, how do you know God punish innocent? Didn't you contradict yourself?

and how do you know God punish innocent? You know a innocent? or you have been to Heaven and Hell, and knows everything?

 

It is written IN THE BIBLE. -- YOUR BIBLE.

 

As you say, it is the word of god.

 

Just read the bible and you will see that in your religion the innocent are punished and suffer right along with the guilty.

[Moai]

You don't even believe there is a living God, how do you know God punish innocent? Didn't you contradict yourself?

and how do you know God punish innocent? You know a innocent? or you have been to Heaven and Hell, and knows everything?

 

Because I know what "innocent" means. That's how.

 

I think an infant is innocent. Do you agree?

 

God punishes His believers right alongside those who don't. Do you deny that this is the case?

 

These questions presuppose that God exists--which I don't think He does. But on this thread, I am asking you to defend your belief system.

 

Just to put it up here, I believe that infants are born with defects and disease because we are biological organisms, and as such we are subject to mutation and infection. Such things are indiscriminate, and do not affect any individual personally.

 

When a flood comes, it kills the unprepared and unfortunate. It matters not what they believe or don't believe; if you are in the path of a wall of water, it will probably kill you. Natural disasters happen because the Earth is a volatile, dangerous place and if you aren't careful or just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time your life can be snuffed out. Nothing personal. It is the way of things. Try to be as happy as you can for as long as you can until your number comes up.

[Island Girl]

Seems you and Island Girl stuck with the free will. All I see is you want to do things against God's will, then don't want to take responsibilities for yourself.

 

Again you misunderstand.

 

*sigh*

 

I don't want to do things against god's will and then not have any personal responsibility.

 

I do not believe in god. So what I do, how I do it, when I do it, has nothing at all to do with god.

 

I do not make decisions or act with any relevance to god or anything god has ever said in the bible.

 

I act and decide on my own.

 

Therefore ALL of the responsibility IS mine. Mine alone. I have only myself to congratulate or blame whichever the case may be.

 

I do not need god to tell me not to commit adultery. My husband and I do not have an open relationship - and I would not hurt him in any way, nor would I sacrifice the love I have with him for another.

 

See?

Nothing to do with god.

 

I do not go out and steal from people - not because of a commandment but because I know someone's livelihood is dependent on it, prices go up because of it, I have integrity above all else, etc.

 

See?

Nothing to do with god.

 

My action and decisions are mine - I AM ACCOUNTABLE.

 

Nobody else is - not the guy down the street - god - anyone - or anything else.

[lonelybird]

The Holy Spirit is not meant to be a "part" of God, it is the spirit of God. God is everything, not a Trinity, nor can the Holy Spirit be separate from Him.

 

The Old Testament references to the Spirit of God do not mean the same thing as the "Holy Spirit" in the New Testament. In the Old Testament, God's Spirit is another way of saying God's power.

 

I am sure that you speak of the geneology in the Bible that is supposed to be of Mary (although the Bible never expressly says so), but there are a couple of problems with that.

 

If Joseph was Jesus' father, he could never occupy the throne because his line is cursed. If Joseph isn't Jesus' father than he is not descended from David and Solomon because the family line passes from the father.

 

Nowhere in the Old Testament is it written that the Messiah will be born of a virgin. This was, of course, made up later to get around the fact that Jesus came from a cursed line and could never be King of the Jews.

 

God has a covenant with the Jewish people, a covenant that He says is unchanging and binding forever. FOREVER. God himself inspired the prophets regarding the Messiah, God also made the rule that family line follows through the father.

 

So, if you accept the New Testament version, God either lied to the Jews, changed His mind, or chose not to honor His own Law in this instance.

 

I will leave it to you to wrestle with the implications of such ideas.

So you admit there is Holy Spirit? How do you know your understanding about HOly Spirit in Old Testament and New Testament is not wrong? How can you be sure they are not the same? because your understanding is the ultimate absolutely right one? if you don't have Holy Spirit in you, how can you say they are different?

[lonelybird]

No, that doesn't make sense. It isn't that I didn't do anything wrong, it's that no matter what I do He knows before I do it, so my will isn't free. It is that simple.

 

It isn't as if by denying we have free will I am denying that God won't punish me for my actions; the point is that if God already knows the outcome, I am not making a decision at all.

 

 

 

It isn't that God is making the decision for me, it is that I have no real decision at all. If God knows who I am going to marry, I have no say in the matter, even if to me it SEEMS like I do. There is no possible way I can marry someone else, as God already KNOWS who I will marry. See?

 

When I reach for an apple, God already knows that I ate an apple. He already knows if I am going to Heaven or not. He knows what I will have for breakfast tomorrow. Get it? And even though I have the illusory experience of making a decision, it really isn't a decision at all, as the choice has already been made.

What can I say? Take responsibilities for YOUR choice. God give you free will. If you want to twist it, actually you can. But this will not affect us, the only harm is yourself.

[lonelybird]

Because I know what "innocent" means. That's how.

 

I think an infant is innocent. Do you agree?

How do you know infant won't enter Heaven? I remember Bible said something about this. A rich people and a poor people.

Other than infant, you don't assume you are one of them? I don't understand why people call themselves innocent while do things agaist God will.

My goodness, I can see how selfrighteousness do harm.

[lonelybird]

Again you misunderstand.

 

*sigh*

 

I don't want to do things against god's will and then not have any personal responsibility.

 

I do not believe in god. So what I do, how I do it, when I do it, has nothing at all to do with god.

 

I do not make decisions or act with any relevance to god or anything god has ever said in the bible.

 

I act and decide on my own.

 

Therefore ALL of the responsibility IS mine. Mine alone. I have only myself to congratulate or blame whichever the case may be.

 

I do not need god to tell me not to commit adultery. My husband and I do not have an open relationship - and I would not hurt him in any way, nor would I sacrifice the love I have with him for another.

 

See?

Nothing to do with god.

 

I do not go out and steal from people - not because of a commandment but because I know someone's livelihood is dependent on it, prices go up because of it, I have integrity above all else, etc.

 

See?

Nothing to do with god.

 

My action and decisions are mine - I AM ACCOUNTABLE.

 

Nobody else is - not the guy down the street - god - anyone - or anything else.

Then I don't see WHY are you here? to show how good you are? even better than God? or you just want to bash other people's belief, and make them unhappy? I really don't see your purpose here

[Moai]

So you admit there is Holy Spirit? How do you know your understanding about HOly Spirit in Old Testament and New Testament is not wrong? How can you be sure they are not the same? because your understanding is the ultimate absolutely right one? if you don't have Holy Spirit in you, how can you say they are different?

 

No, I don't believe in the Holy Spirit.

 

I have every confidence that my understanding of the Holy Spirit is accurate because I can read and understand English. I am not being flipppant, but the concepts involved are not complex in the least bit.

 

That said, I trust that Rabbis, who have put more years of study than you and I put together, and that what they say is true. I trust them because their doctrine has been unchanged since the time of Moses, and that the God of the Bible is their God, and should know Him better than anyone.

 

They read the Old Testament (they call it the Torah) in its original Hebrew.

 

The whole notion of a Messiah is theirs in the first place. They described the Nature of God hundreds of years before Jesus was born, and still more hundreds before most of the New Testament was written.

 

I would say that it would be virtually impossible for them to be wrong.

 

Just because I think that their descriptions of God and His Spirit are accurate doesn't mean that I believe that there is such a being, though.

[Moai]

What can I say? Take responsibilities for YOUR choice. God give you free will. If you want to twist it, actually you can. But this will not affect us, the only harm is yourself.

 

I can't be sure, but I think that there is a serious language barrier here. Whether there is free will or not has nothing to do with responsibility.

 

I am not twisting anything. Omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive. If you don't believe me, go to a website about logic in your native language and read what it says there.

[lonelybird]

No, I don't believe in the Holy Spirit.

 

I have every confidence that my understanding of the Holy Spirit is accurate because I can read and understand English. I am not being flipppant, but the concepts involved are not complex in the least bit.

 

That said, I trust that Rabbis, who have put more years of study than you and I put together, and that what they say is true. I trust them because their doctrine has been unchanged since the time of Moses, and that the God of the Bible is their God, and should know Him better than anyone.

 

They read the Old Testament (they call it the Torah) in its original Hebrew.

 

The whole notion of a Messiah is theirs in the first place. They described the Nature of God hundreds of years before Jesus was born, and still more hundreds before most of the New Testament was written.

 

I would say that it would be virtually impossible for them to be wrong.

 

Just because I think that their descriptions of God and His Spirit are accurate doesn't mean that I believe that there is such a being, though.

There you go. I have Holy Spirit. and many followers of Jesus Christ have Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit cured people physically and mentally. and teach us daily about Jesus, God, how to achieve spiritual fruits. Just as Jesus said in the New Testament. The world do not know Holy Spirit, because Holy Spirit is in us.

[lonelybird]

That said, I trust that Rabbis, who have put more years of study than you and I put together, and that what they say is true. I trust them because their doctrine has been unchanged since the time of Moses, and that the God of the Bible is their God, and should know Him better than anyone.

 

Do you think who I should believe? I believe Holy Spirit who has supernatual power and come from God, or believe Rabbis who is a human being? You tell me

[Island Girl]

Then I don't see WHY are you here? to show how good you are? even better than God? or you just want to bash other people's belief, and make them unhappy? I really don't see your purpose here

 

-- As far as my post that you quoted, I was directly addressed in your post.

 

I quoted your post which mentioned me BY NAME and answered it.

 

Is questioning bashing someone's belief?

 

Is stating my belief or lack thereof less relevant?

 

Isn't that what this thread is about? Questions and answers about faith?

 

You are posting and defending YOUR beliefs.

 

I suppose my posting of my beliefs you do not see as just as valuable.

 

Ohhhhh, of course not.

 

I don't agree with you so I shouldn't be posting here.

 

Okay. I understand that is your opinion.

 

I'll give it just as much consideration as you seem to give mine.

 

Until the next post!

[Moai]

How do you know infant won't enter Heaven? I remember Bible said something about this. A rich people and a poor people.

Other than infant, you don't assume you are one of them? I don't understand why people call themselves innocent while do things agaist God will.

My goodness, I can see how selfrighteousness do harm.

 

The Bible says that all are born into sin.

 

Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

Psalm 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

John 3:3 - Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

According to the Bible, infants are in Hell.

 

Again, there must be a language barrier. Please show me where I ONCE claimed that I was innocent. I am certainly not. I have certainly made mistakes, and probably will again. But I learn from them, and earnestly try not to make the same mistake twice.

 

What is going on with you that you automatically assume I proclaim my innocence, and that I am self-righteous?

 

That said, I don't think that anyone can do anything that would require punishment for eternity in a lake of fire--especially not for a thought crime.

 

What exactly am I doing that is contrary to God's will--except for not believing in Him, that is?

[Love Hurts]

--- See? You say "if you wanted to know"

 

But if I was OMNISCIENT - as you claim god is - I would already know, wouldn't I?

 

So why the need for the pawn to test then?

 

I would know their hearts desire, their every thought, so why not just cut to the chase?

 

 

Darn you dint read my post on this.

[Moai]

There you go. I have Holy Spirit. and many followers of Jesus Christ have Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit cured people physically and mentally. and teach us daily about Jesus, God, how to achieve spiritual fruits. Just as Jesus said in the New Testament. The world do not know Holy Spirit, because Holy Spirit is in us.

 

I would say that if you are a follower of Jesus, you are mistaken, and are being misled. But, suit yourself.

 

Again, Jesus was very specific on what those spiritual fruits would be. All prayers answered, the ability to move mountains, etc. You admit yourself that all of your prayers are not answered in this way.

 

I quote: Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

Do you habitually drink poison? This is Jesus speaking here, by the way.

[Love Hurts]

Really.

 

How many believers died in Katrina? How many believers died in the WTC? Why would God starve children, who have no idea what they believe yet?

 

FYI, the people starving in the Sudan are CHRISTIANS.

 

I am not only amazed that you would suggest such a thing, I am also shocked that you ask such a thing without a trace of irony, or even a clue as to how offensive such a suggestion is.

 

God punishes the innocent along with the guilty, all the time, everywhere.

 

Great anwer; God punishes thei innocent along with the guilty; all the time everywhere.

 

It rains on the just and the unjust alike.

We could be gaining solid ground here.

[lonelybird]

The Bible says that all are born into sin.

 

Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

Psalm 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

John 3:3 - Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

According to the Bible, infants are in Hell.

 

Again, there must be a language barrier. Please show me where I ONCE claimed that I was innocent. I am certainly not. I have certainly made mistakes, and probably will again. But I learn from them, and earnestly try not to make the same mistake twice.

 

What is going on with you that you automatically assume I proclaim my innocence, and that I am self-righteous?

 

That said, I don't think that anyone can do anything that would require punishment for eternity in a lake of fire--especially not for a thought crime.

 

What exactly am I doing that is contrary to God's will--except for not believing in Him, that is?

If you want me to say there is NO God, sorry, that will never come out from my mouth. The TRUTH is there is a living God, and Yes, God will punish those who do things against His will. You don't want to accept it, FINE. but you have to accept the consequences. again, it is your choice. NO harm to us. we are trying to drag you back, but don't seem work it a little. You choose whatever you want to choose, it is YOUR destiny.

[Moai]

Do you think who I should believe? I believe Holy Spirit who has supernatual power and come from God, or believe Rabbis who is a human being? You tell me

 

The Bible was written by a flesh and blood man, whether inspired by god or not. You believe the Holy Spirit, but the description of said Spirit is in the New Testament--and does not jibe with the description in the Old.

 

The Old Testament was inspired in exactly the same way. Since the time of Moses, these men not only ardently believe that the Old Testament is the word of God, they can read it in the language in which it was originally written.

 

The Bible that you read has been translated by men. How can you be certain that the book is being translated correctly? Do you even know anyone who can read Aramaic or Greek?

 

If you go and talk to a rabbi, he can read Hebrew. He can read the text in its original form. I think that you should definitely listen to the rabbi.

[Moai]

If you want me to say there is NO God, sorry, that will never come out from my mouth. The TRUTH is there is a living God, and Yes, God will punish those who do things against His will. You don't want to accept it, FINE. but you have to accept the consequences. again, it is your choice. NO harm to us. we are trying to drag you back, but don't seem work it a little. You choose whatever you want to choose, it is YOUR destiny.

 

I don't want you to say that there is no God, I would just like to know how you can rationalize all the contradictions and cruelties associated with Him, that's all.

 

 

If you can't, then say you can't. Whether you know it or not, you believe in spite of these things anyway, so you may as well admit it.

[lonelybird]

The Bible was written by a flesh and blood man, whether inspired by god or not. You believe the Holy Spirit, but the description of said Spirit is in the New Testament--and does not jibe with the description in the Old.

 

The Old Testament was inspired in exactly the same way. Since the time of Moses, these men not only ardently believe that the Old Testament is the word of God, they can read it in the language in which it was originally written.

 

The Bible that you read has been translated by men. How can you be certain that the book is being translated correctly? Do you even know anyone who can read Aramaic or Greek?

 

If you go and talk to a rabbi, he can read Hebrew. He can read the text in its original form. I think that you should definitely listen to the rabbi.

Yes, the Bible was translated by men. But I know a person who work God's work, will be guided by Holy Spirit. If there are something wrong, Holy Spirit will tell very loudly and clearly, if anybody dare to do things against Holy Spirit's instruction, that person would bear consequences, based on fear of this, a person who works God's work will not lie. I don't know how many my posts you choose to miss. I said this many times.

 

Again, the Old Testament and New Testament talk about same Holy Spirit. because I have Holy Spirit, so I always pay attention to this, it is written all over in the Bible.

[lonelybird]

I don't want you to say that there is no God, I would just like to know how you can rationalize all the contradictions and cruelties associated with Him, that's all.

 

 

If you can't, then say you can't. Whether you know it or not, you believe in spite of these things anyway, so you may as well admit it.

Bible is a mirror. Meek sheep reflect out Love of God, wrong doer and rebellion reflect out anger of God. because God want people to be righteousness.

[lonelybird]

If you go and talk to a rabbi, he can read Hebrew. He can read the text in its original form. I think that you should definitely listen to the rabbi.

NO, I think I should definitely listen to the Holy Spirit.

[Love Hurts]

I speak through a blackened heart?!

 

This is the complete reply to my post of complete biblical scripture.

 

I quoted the bible directly.

 

They are not my words they are (according to you) god's words. - God speaking of his own actions.

 

I did not make them up. Nor did I add to or take away from them in any way.

 

So, let me get this straight, there are passages that you post and read and reread but you do not accept the rest?

You do not believe in the whole bible or do not believe that ALL of it is true and is the direct word of god?

 

You must know your god has directed you not to do so. You are to accept all of it if you believe.

 

The passages you like and the passages that may be difficult to swallow.

 

I find it truly disappointing that you, Love_Hurts, who quotes the bible as frequently as you do - would resort to condemning me so vehemently for posting ACCURATE and COMPLETE biblical scripture.

 

Sadly - this is why there is a problem with religion.

 

There can be a discussion about hell.

 

You condemn me to it in god's name.

 

I am lost. I am the walking dead as you have posted again and again.

 

Personal - personal - personal.

 

You post about how I am looking for something (I am not looking by the way - I have a Christian background and know the bible quite well indeed - and have read the WHOLE thing - which is why I reject it).

 

You post away quoting passage upon passage from the exact bible that the quotes I posted came from.

 

Yet when I post biblical scripture from your bible that you say you believe, which make the questions a little bit harder to answer, there ceases to be any discussion at all.

 

And angry self-righteous words spew forth in your posts.

 

What? No answers to those particular bible quotes? They are written by the same god. They are his actions not mine.

 

I do not seek Witches or Warlocks. I do not believe in them either.

 

As to being convicted for who and what I am - ? I'm not sure I understand that.

 

Convicted as an atheist. Absolutely.

Is that "what" I am? Oh but I am so many more other things too!

 

As for "who" I am - I am a beautiful, multi-faceted, complex, flawed human being.

 

By the way - I am not the one who has to resort to personal attacks rather than rational questions or arguments.

 

Cheers.

 

You take scripture out of content and call it magic. There is no magic with God.

 

God does not do magic tricks. Satan does; Tricks are of deception my friend.

 

You play upon scripture without knowing what it means and condemn it.

As for test and condemnation of God Yahweh; I do not raise my voice above His.

 

I do not step on His judgments and condemn God.

You tread on serious ground.

 

You call your self-Atheist. Not good.

You say cheers; drink up this may all you get.

Many will thirst; and lack even a drop of water.