Treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen...

[Bill]

In response to Tony's post

 

whew.. nice to know I'm ok then

 

However I do like to take a girl out to nice restaurants a lot,

but that is also because I want to go there

[Jacki]

in response to midori, I personally feel that the work of Catherine MacKinnon is far more insightful in feminst social theory that the difference approach of Gilligan and Cornell et. al. Then again, MacKinnon's view would hold that the mere interaction between men and women is a form of rape, so perhaps for the time being Bonni should listen to Gilligan's ethic of care rhetoric...

[Bonni]

I am stunned at the response to my post, thank you so much to everyone who wrote in, especially midori - you're views are very helpful. He has called me a couple of times and I have resisted the urge to answer the phone. It has been difficult but it's getting easier. I just hope that when I got out this weekend I don't do the whole 'drink and dial' thing. Argh!

[Paul]

Originally posted by Jacki

in response to midori, I personally feel that the work of Catherine MacKinnon is far more insightful in feminst social theory that the difference approach of Gilligan and Cornell et. al. Then again, MacKinnon's view would hold that the mere interaction between men and women is a form of rape, so perhaps for the time being Bonni should listen to Gilligan's ethic of care rhetoric...

 

Oh, I think I'm in love...

[HokeyReligions]

Bonni, you got some great advice and comments. I agree w/ Midori & Tony.

 

I will say though, that my husband thought I was VERY nice when we were dating. He was very nice too, but not as nice as me.

 

I was raised in the mid-west (I know what 'cha mean Midori!) and my mother taught me that women should be subservient to men. It wasn't out of ignorance, or depression, or anything -- it was how she was taught and believed it to be GOD'S WILL. Women were supposed to put aside all hopes and dreams of their own and adopt their husband's -- just as they took his name. I can go back to Tony's 5 examples and say that I fit all of them but NOT for the reasons he stated.

 

Anyay, I behaved that way and it was just fine. I was never a doormat -- there is a big difference in being used and being subservient. If a man DID try to walk over me I did not let him, but I was NICE about it!

 

I was what they used to refer to as the kind of girl a guy could bring home to mother!

 

When my husband and I were first engaged and moved in with each other (we hadn't had sex yet) it was a nervous step for me.

 

It was a compromise because I wanted to wait until after we were married, but he wanted sex on the second date! We became intimate after the engagement and moved in together - a few months before our marriage.

 

He thought I was nice and he told me he had some serious doubts about just how "fulfilling" our sex life could possibly be. I seemed so niave to him! But he loved me more than sex so . . .

 

Well, after our first weekend together, he realized that NICE people know lots of things too! We are just too NICE to flaunt them.

 

Before we decided on celibacy (for too many reasons to state here) we had a very exciting and creative sex life and I surprised him a lot, and he had some surprises for me too.

 

I said all that to say, hey! NICE is just fine -- and it doesn't have to mean boring or predictable or routine.

[Jacki]

HokeyReligious, how can you say that your mother's views that women should be subservient to men were not borne out of ignorance?? Why would you assume that just because she grew up brainwashed by traditional christian values, that her views were 'natural'? I do not see any difference between being 'subservient' and being 'used'. I doubt any intelligent, educated person would. Not to harp on about it (and believe me, I could), but modern society itself is based on the oppression of women by their basic sexual characteristics - it seems incredulous to me that there are still women out there who willingly perpetuate these blatant social inequalities. "Niceness" has nothing to do with it. How about having some self respect.

[midori]

While I agree that any perspective that places women in a subservient, deferent, or otherwise inferior position to men is not "natural" in any true sense of the word, I understood HokeyReligions to mean merely that her mother's perspective was based on the social norms of her time and place, that she was not especially insecure or masochistic to follow her husband at all times. Which does not mean that the social norms which once prevailed (and in many places still do) serve the best interests of either the women or men in such societies; if women aren't allowed to be fully productive according to their own specific talents and abilities, the society overall will be deprived of what they might have contributed. Etc.

 

But enough of the feminist manifesto (I don't happen to buy into MacKinnon's rather extremist position on social interactions between men and women). Where I disagree with what HokeyReligions had to say on the topic of niceness is in her interpretation of "nice." If I read you correctly HR, your story was meant to illustrate that one can be a nice girl and still live happily ever after. As I understood it your use of "nice" was in the more traditional sense of "girl who abides by rules governing her sexual behavior before marriage, and who follows conventions of politeness, etc." That's not what I was talking about earlier. Standing by your principles and not giving in to your fiance's desire for pre-marital sex is actually the exact opposite of the kind of wholly accommodating, non-controversial, unopinionated & self-effacing type of person that I find to be quite boring.