Traditions, religion and respect

[princessa]

It seems natural for us to have a level of respect for our ancestors and the values and traditions they've instilled in our families. Oftentimes these values come directly from a religious background. These values range from helping our elders, doing community services, being faithful to the husband, to never talking back to a man.

 

With education, some people come to question some of the values that they were taught as children, which is a great thing. But how is it that their skewed notion of "respect" towards their family traditions defies what their logic and self-respect tells them about these same values? How is it possible to have respect for "values" promoting the submissiveness of women while at the same time being fully educated about how dysfunctional these same values are?

 

While those same women are struggling against their opression, how can they still defend that culture and religion that put them in that miserable position in the first place? How do they not realize that their whole concept of respect is f*cked up and what they should really be respecting before anything else is their own safety and wellbeing, free of any controlling husbands, brothers, or fathers?

[Moose]

How is it possible to have respect for "values" promoting the submissiveness of women while at the same time being fully educated about how dysfunctional these same values are?

Just WHO are you to say that these values are dysfunctional huh??

 

Women were created for men to be our helpmates.

 

I'm not saying that gives man the right to, "oppress", woman. In fact, men are to love, cherish, and revere their wives to the point of giving his life for her.....

 

Your way of thinking is a little off....in my opinion....

 

It worries me what educators are doing with their position, and our children.....

[princessa]

Just WHO are you to say that these values are dysfunctional huh??

 

Women were created for men to be our helpmates.

 

Don't you see that this mentality is causing more harm than good overall, nevermind your religious beliefs? Even the language that you use here is diminishing women. It is people like you who under the hypocrisy of their so-called religious righteousness, use these principles to their advantage to maintain control. Open your eyes, see how much violence and disrespect is geared towards women everytime under the guise of "values" and "respect" for such distorted beliefs.

 

 

I'm not saying that gives man the right to, "oppress", woman. In fact, men are to love, cherish, and revere their wives to the point of giving his life for her.....

 

That's not what's happening, and this oppression is done by the same men who, like yourself, proclaim the "weakness" of women. Instead of loving and cherishing they control and order around. Is that what you want to pass on to your daughters?

[alphamale]

Women were created for men to be our helpmates..

even the venerable ALPHAMALE wouldn't make that statement

[Topper]

even the venerable ALPHAMALE wouldn't make that statement

 

This just proves that Alpha, IS smarter then the average Moose

[Love Hurts]

Just WHO are you to say that these values are dysfunctional huh??

 

Women were created for men to be our helpmates.

 

I'm not saying that gives man the right to, "oppress", woman. In fact, men are to love, cherish, and revere their wives to the point of giving his life for her.....

 

Your way of thinking is a little off....in my opinion....

 

It worries me what educators are doing with their position, and our children.....

 

This is the perfect example of why Jesus tells us not be unequally yoked to a non-beliver.

 

The fall comes when you have two joined in marriages that are opposites one is light and one is darkness.

A house divided will not stand.

 

If both are saved …both believe and follow Christ…. Therefore it is not two joined in union of marriage to start but three… God is the head of the house.

These marriages often are more beautiful and the couples are usually more healthy and happy as they take their burdens to the lord in prayer and trust in Him in all things.

Loving one another as man and wife now its much easier and more than that a desire to please one another. These couples often have no problem with problem- solving together.

And the joy of the man being head of house is; she has the privy to relax and trust his judgments are good and fair. This is a gift and a delight to have a wonderful competent God-fearing man making decisions that she is comfortable with and respects.

Not to say she never has a say so or an opinion of her own she does and he appreciates her ability to pick up and take over areas he is weak or uncomfortable in. It’s a total package a marriage can be a beautiful working relationship.

 

Or your worst nightmare comes to be.

Before marriage even if you are both saved you each must be certain you appreciate and respect each others thoughts and ways. Respect love and admiration for one another should be foremost. If either of you despise the others abitility to reason. It’s a problem from the get go.

 

You should see each other as a prize catch in every respect. If we settle for less when we are dating our potential spouse when we are married we have just diminished by ten levels of what we had settled on to begin with. Courting is the best foot forward for both parties always are seemingly more than when dating.

 

Where marriage is relaxed and this is what you get. We do not change people or remake them you get what you get, that’s it. If you marry an ignorant bar fly flirting man, he is your leader there is no changing him.

Therefore before marriage if he is not like you and you cannot stand the way he thinks to begin with… why be with him in the first place.

 

Women need to be more discerning than men. She bares the children. Who wants a product of whatever is available. And what kind of father is that?

In this scenario she looses and so do the children to be.

If one settles for a man not appreciating or respecting his mental thought processing Guess what? … His gene can easily be obvious in your offspring and there you go … now your surrounded by many that are like as the father. If one was unhappy before ...talk about Nut Ville.

 

We need to discern and be selective and not settle for. To settle for is to diminish ourselves.

 

God Bless*

[burning 4 revenge]

 

Women were created for men to be our helpmates.

WTF?

 

That's the most ridiculous statement I've ever seen here and I've seen many.

[Rooster_DAR]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

LOL...too funny!

[princessa]

I'm really not interested in getting into a religious debate. I'm talking here about women who are educated, consider themselves liberal, and are willing to discuss and reconsider their beliefs (granted to a certain extent).. And yet it is so hard for them to see how the deep so-called respect that they have towards their ancestors' and culture is causing so much pain to their own situation.. How can they not make that link??

[burning 4 revenge]

I'm really not interested in getting into a religious debate. I'm talking here about women who are educated, consider themselves liberal, and are willing to discuss and reconsider their beliefs (granted to a certain extent).. And yet it is so hard for them to see how the deep so-called respect that they have towards their ancestors' and culture is causing so much pain to their own situation.. How can they not make that link??

No offense, but what's with the slut in your avatar?

[princessa]

No offense, but what's with the slut in your avatar?

 

Just sit back down and light up another one.

[Moose]

Don't you see that this mentality is causing more harm than good overall, nevermind your religious beliefs? Even the language that you use here is diminishing women. It is people like you who under the hypocrisy of their so-called religious righteousness, use these principles to their advantage to maintain control. Open your eyes, see how much violence and disrespect is geared towards women everytime under the guise of "values" and "respect" for such distorted beliefs.

How is my mentality of, "roles" in the marriage causing harm than good? We have 5 wonderful children that wouldn't change a thing in my house as far as their parents are concerned.

 

There are millions of Christians who live the same way, and they seem to be far more functional than what the, "Educated", populous would have you to believe......but that's a personal observation.....I could be wrong......

 

I would've said what I said to a man that challenges God's intentions of a Holy Matrimony, you took it as demeaning to women, for that I apologize for my, "Language" that diminishes women, it was not directed to women in general, and I want to apologize for not being clearer on that statement.

 

You're the one posting in "Spiritual & Religious Beliefs", and you're asking us to put aside our religious beliefs......I don't think I can do that. Not IRL not here......

While those same women are struggling against their opression, how can they still defend that culture and religion that put them in that miserable position in the first place? How do they not realize that their whole concept of respect is f*cked up and what they should really be respecting before anything else is their own safety and wellbeing, free of any controlling husbands, brothers, or fathers?

I didn't have time to respond properly to this thread either......so let me apologize for that as well.

 

Look, in my mind, (and countless others), this, "opression" that you talk about is in the mind of the beholder so to speak.

 

If a woman chooses to marry a controlling husband, that husband is not fulfilling the sacrament he took, (in God's eyes), and will most likely fall on his own. Leaving the wife to divorce her husband, and bring shame to her, and her children's name.

 

If she has a controlling brother, she needs to disown him.

 

If she has a controlling father, she's a woman, she can cut all ties, and has the option to rely on her heavenly Father instead. This is true with men also, I had to do this at a very, very young age......

 

Wouldn't you think that with my background, being raised in a home without Church, 4 different "Dads", being abused physically and mentally by half of them, then on my own at 15 I would have followed the path of least resistance?

 

I'm happy to say, that I took the hard path, I chose God's plan of Marriage, found a wonderful woman who KNEW what that meant, and here I am 19 years later.......7 years longer than my own Mother has ever been married.....

 

That speaks volumes to me about the, "Spiritual, Traditional" relationship that you put down, ridicule, and possibly teach our kids against.....

 

Sorry to sound so bitter.......and I don't really mean to be. I'm just trying to show you how the other side feels about it too.....ya know?

 

Love Hurts' post is right on BTW.......

[Love Hurts]

How is my mentality of, "roles" in the marriage causing harm than good? We have 5 wonderful children that wouldn't change a thing in my house as far as their parents are concerned.

 

There are millions of Christians who live the same way, and they seem to be far more functional than what the, "Educated", populous would have you to believe......but that's a personal observation.....I could be wrong......

 

I would've said what I said to a man that challenges God's intentions of a Holy Matrimony, you took it as demeaning to women, for that I apologize for my, "Language" that diminishes women, it was not directed to women in general, and I want to apologize for not being clearer on that statement.

 

You're the one posting in "Spiritual & Religious Beliefs", and you're asking us to put aside our religious beliefs......I don't think I can do that. Not IRL not here......I didn't have time to respond properly to this thread either......so let me apologize for that as well.

 

Look, in my mind, (and countless others), this, "opression" that you talk about is in the mind of the beholder so to speak.

 

If a woman chooses to marry a controlling husband, that husband is not fulfilling the sacrament he took, (in God's eyes), and will most likely fall on his own. Leaving the wife to divorce her husband, and bring shame to her, and her children's name.

 

If she has a controlling brother, she needs to disown him.

 

If she has a controlling father, she's a woman, she can cut all ties, and has the option to rely on her heavenly Father instead. This is true with men also, I had to do this at a very, very young age......

 

Wouldn't you think that with my background, being raised in a home without Church, 4 different "Dads", being abused physically and mentally by half of them, then on my own at 15 I would have followed the path of least resistance?

 

I'm happy to say, that I took the hard path, I chose God's plan of Marriage, found a wonderful woman who KNEW what that meant, and here I am 19 years later.......7 years longer than my own Mother has ever been married.....

 

That speaks volumes to me about the, "Spiritual, Traditional" relationship that you put down, ridicule, and possibly teach our kids against.....

 

Sorry to sound so bitter.......and I don't really mean to be. I'm just trying to show you how the other side feels about it too.....ya know?

 

Love Hurts' post is right on BTW.......

Moose I appreciate the right on… but what does BTW mean…?

[Gosh sometimes I feel so ignorant]

[Moose]

Not a problem, BTW="By The Way".....

[Moose]

even the venerable ALPHAMALE wouldn't make that statement

Look at it this way if you will...

 

Adam is standing around, naming all of the plants, and animals, (wanna get deeper?).....he sees one male, and one female of each species..........he even sees them multiplying............make sense so far?

 

"Hmmmm"....Adam is using his God given mind of reason and thinks, "How come there is two of each kind, and I am one?"

 

The rest is history......

[Love Hurts]

Not a problem, BTW="By The Way".....

Dear God what a relief in this walk to fall next to a brother in Christ. T.Y.

[lonelybird]

It seems natural for us to have a level of respect for our ancestors and the values and traditions they've instilled in our families. Oftentimes these values come directly from a religious background. These values range from helping our elders, doing community services, being faithful to the husband, to never talking back to a man.

 

With education, some people come to question some of the values that they were taught as children, which is a great thing. But how is it that their skewed notion of "respect" towards their family traditions defies what their logic and self-respect tells them about these same values? How is it possible to have respect for "values" promoting the submissiveness of women while at the same time being fully educated about how dysfunctional these same values are?

 

While those same women are struggling against their opression, how can they still defend that culture and religion that put them in that miserable position in the first place? How do they not realize that their whole concept of respect is f*cked up and what they should really be respecting before anything else is their own safety and wellbeing, free of any controlling husbands, brothers, or fathers?

It seems you misunderstood the Bible. Bible says "husband should love their wife as love themself", what love is greater than this? As to submissiveness, it is a mutual thing. and the real meaning of submissiveness is other-serve, not all the time "me, me, me". If you are in a marriage, you should strive to serve each other. That's the Bible means. And self-centerness is the reason of many problems in a marriage. A God fearing man and woman try to do things the way God want them to do when they face a problem, and the goal is to love other. I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

Submissiveness is different from being step-over though. Usually God fearing people has strong personality and healthy boundaries. For example, if a husband do something wrong in God's eyes, this time the wife should not be submissive to her husband, but put God first, husband second. when wife has selfish thought, this time put God first, then she will not do things out of selfishness. And a self-respect person can easily respect others, what's wrong with this?

[lonelybird]

This is the perfect example of why Jesus tells us not be unequally yoked to a non-beliver.

 

The fall comes when you have two joined in marriages that are opposites one is light and one is darkness.

A house divided will not stand.

 

If both are saved …both believe and follow Christ…. Therefore it is not two joined in union of marriage to start but three… God is the head of the house.

These marriages often are more beautiful and the couples are usually more healthy and happy as they take their burdens to the lord in prayer and trust in Him in all things.

Loving one another as man and wife now its much easier and more than that a desire to please one another. These couples often have no problem with problem- solving together.

And the joy of the man being head of house is; she has the privy to relax and trust his judgments are good and fair. This is a gift and a delight to have a wonderful competent God-fearing man making decisions that she is comfortable with and respects.

Not to say she never has a say so or an opinion of her own she does and he appreciates her ability to pick up and take over areas he is weak or uncomfortable in. It’s a total package a marriage can be a beautiful working relationship.

 

Or your worst nightmare comes to be.

Before marriage even if you are both saved you each must be certain you appreciate and respect each others thoughts and ways. Respect love and admiration for one another should be foremost. If either of you despise the others abitility to reason. It’s a problem from the get go.

 

You should see each other as a prize catch in every respect. If we settle for less when we are dating our potential spouse when we are married we have just diminished by ten levels of what we had settled on to begin with. Courting is the best foot forward for both parties always are seemingly more than when dating.

 

Where marriage is relaxed and this is what you get. We do not change people or remake them you get what you get, that’s it. If you marry an ignorant bar fly flirting man, he is your leader there is no changing him.

Therefore before marriage if he is not like you and you cannot stand the way he thinks to begin with… why be with him in the first place.

 

Women need to be more discerning than men. She bares the children. Who wants a product of whatever is available. And what kind of father is that?

In this scenario she looses and so do the children to be.

If one settles for a man not appreciating or respecting his mental thought processing Guess what? … His gene can easily be obvious in your offspring and there you go … now your surrounded by many that are like as the father. If one was unhappy before ...talk about Nut Ville.

 

We need to discern and be selective and not settle for. To settle for is to diminish ourselves.

 

God Bless*

Beautiful post, Love Hurts:)

[boshemia]

How is it possible to have respect for "values" promoting the submissiveness of women while at the same time being fully educated about how dysfunctional these same values are?

 

How do they not realize that their whole concept of respect is f*cked up and what they should really be respecting before anything else is their own safety and wellbeing, free of any controlling husbands, brothers, or fathers?

 

I understand what you are saying, and there are some very healthy marriages out there where the woman chooses to submit to the authority of her husband. Christian or not, as long as the choice is made of free will and not forced then lets just say they are excluded from this conversation.

 

If it is considered the responsibility of a woman to submit to her husband, than at the same time there is a great responsibility required from the husband as well. A responsibility that is often ignored by traditional schools of thought.

 

All humans have basic needs, male or female these basic needs remain the same. These needs must be met. In the IDEAL relationsip both parties take responsibility for these needs together... People in good relationships can easily believe that their way is the only way... they forget that it doesn't work that way for everyone.

 

If your partner is unable or unwilling to meet those needs then you are responsibile for meeting them yourself. That's where I found myself in "traditional" marriage, meeting their needs and then trying to find time to meet my own. Most of the time mine were just supressed or ignored altogether.

 

I don't think it's the values themselves that are flawed, it's the whole idea that we have no choice in the matter. It's this idea that I am 1/2 of a person and somewhere out there is my other 1/2 person and together we will make a whole. Healthy relationships don't make a whole person out of two halves, it takes two whole people and joins them for a common purpose.

 

You can't take a woman that has no respect for herself and put her in a relationship with a man who has no respect for her and say OK, now submit. You are bound for disaster... it hurts like hell, and all you really get is a woman who comes out of it battered, abused, and with even less respect for herself.

 

However if you take two people with a healthy respect for themselves and the other person, the idea of submitting, one partner taking the lead and the other partner following isn't so bad. Like president and vice president they can work together, everyone gets their needs met and it can work for them...

 

There is no right or wrong in that matter... It takes an incerdible amount of respect to lead or to follow and to trust that everyones needs will be met. Therein you have the difficulty of marriage submisive or not.

[Rooster_DAR]

The truth regarding our religious beliefs are unravelling and some are taking on new forms of belief and practice, this thread is a good example. As the world slowly moves away from traditional religious beliefs (And God), new rules and behaviours are edging their way in to our cultures. Men used to be seen as the provider and therefore the leader of the household, and men were established as the controller/dominator of women (if you don't believe this, pick up some literature from the 17th century and earlier). People were just as religious (or more perhaps) back then than they are now, so you can can contrast our modern culture with theirs and it raises an eyebrow.

 

Hmmmm.....what changed?

[lonelybird]

The truth regarding our religious beliefs are unravelling and some are taking on new forms of belief and practice, this thread is a good example. As the world slowly moves away from traditional religious beliefs (And God), new rules and behaviours are edging their way in to our cultures. Men used to be seen as the provider and therefore the leader of the household, and men were established as the controller/dominator of women (if you don't believe this, pick up some literature from the 17th century and earlier). People were just as religious (or more perhaps) back then than they are now, so you can can contrast our modern culture with theirs and it raises an eyebrow.

 

Hmmmm.....what changed?

It is easy, go back to Bible, God's living law never change

[alphamale]

It is easy, go back to Bible, God's living law never change

but why couldn't one refer to another holy text?

[burning 4 revenge]

but why couldn't one refer to another holy text?

Like what? Hustler December 1998?

[alphamale]

Like what? Hustler December 1998?

naah I'm more into Club magazine

[princessa]

It seems you misunderstood the Bible. Bible says "husband should love their wife as love themself", what love is greater than this? As to submissiveness, it is a mutual thing. and the real meaning of submissiveness is other-serve, not all the time "me, me, me". If you are in a marriage, you should strive to serve each other. That's the Bible means. And self-centerness is the reason of many problems in a marriage. A God fearing man and woman try to do things the way God want them to do when they face a problem, and the goal is to love other. I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

Submissiveness is different from being step-over though. Usually God fearing people has strong personality and healthy boundaries. For example, if a husband do something wrong in God's eyes, this time the wife should not be submissive to her husband, but put God first, husband second. when wife has selfish thought, this time put God first, then she will not do things out of selfishness. And a self-respect person can easily respect others, what's wrong with this?

 

You speak only of the theory that you know. Take a look at what's happening in practice. The reality of all of this is that the "submissive woman" mindset is leaving too much room for abuse and makes the woman a second-class element in her own marriage by her own convictions. Because she has too much respect for this theory and these traditions, she ends up beliving that the fact that she's seen only as second to the man is normal, therefore stretching the limits of the kind of crap she tolerates from him to the point where she doesn't know what's acceptable and what's not anymore.