Traditions, religion and respect

[DanielMadr]

Women were created for men to be our helpmates.

 

And you read this piece of BS where exactly? Wake up man

[Moose]

And you read this piece of BS where exactly? Wake up man

Ummmm....it's called the, "Bible"......it's a great read...

 

I'm probably more, "awake" than you could possibly imagine......

[DanielMadr]

Ummmm....it's called the, "Bible"......it's a great read...

 

I'm probably more, "awake" than you could possibly imagine......

 

All I know about Old Testament is, it is full of f@ck ups and gang f@cks. Jews in their sincerity wrote it for newer generations to learn from mistakes. Any useful info concerning men and women is 'Not to be a wusy' like Adam was.

 

Have you read New Testament or you read only views supporting your obscure ideas?

 

Women to help us? I thought we are here to help each other. Protect them and our children. Of course they can help us, why not. But it doesnt make them our helpmates.

[serial muse]

Niave woman you are......there are two things that's existed since the beginning of, "time" as we know it......most define them in common language as good and evil.....I know it as God and Satan, other know it as Yen or Yang, you know it as, "woman and man"......get it?

 

Actually, this comment surprised me, Moose - it's suggesting that God and Satan are on a par with each other, which l didn't think was traditional Christian canon. It more suggests a dualist, Manichaeist way of picturing good and evil - that they exist as yin and yang and have always been side by side with each other. (Manichaeism is an ancient Babylonian religion from around the 3rd century AD).

 

But don't Christians believe that God (the Word) was the originator of all things, including time, light and Satan (Lucifer), who was just one of his archangels who later fell from grace? And ultimately, don't many (perhaps all?) Christians believe that the works that Satan does are on some level allowed by God - who certainly has the power to stop them - because they function as tests for men's faith?

 

I'm really not trying to be a smartass but this really struck me as straying pretty far from Christian beliefs.

[a4a]

If any man ever stated I was created to be his help-mate that tells me I have no other worth.

 

Could be that some women pick up on this even if it is not directly said in such a point blank fashion, and very much resent a man for feeling that they (the woman) has ZERO STAND ALONE VALUE.

 

You are only worthy if you serve me - that is what you were created for, that and that alone.

 

I will treat you kindly, show you respect...... but always remember your value is only tied directly to me.

 

Sounds a bit arrogant and IMHO controlling and abusive emotionally to tell someone that they have no true value and to teach this to others...... kinda scarey.

 

Of course maybe I took it out of context this format does not allow for proper communication.

[Moose]

All I know about Old Testament is, it is full of f@ck ups and gang f@cks. Jews in their sincerity wrote it for newer generations to learn from mistakes. Any useful info concerning men and women is 'Not to be a wusy' like Adam was.

Interesting interpretation.....

Have you read New Testament or you read only views supporting your obscure ideas?

Of course I read the New Testament. I read the whole bible in it's CONTEXT.

Women to help us? I thought we are here to help each other. Protect them and our children. Of course they can help us, why not. But it doesnt make them our helpmates.

Helpmate:

–noun

 

1. a companion and helper.

2. a wife or husband.

3. anything that aids or assists, esp. regularly: This calculator is my constant helpmate.

 

Now....tell me....what's so wrong with the word, "helpmate"??

 

This doesn't mean that the scripture says that is ALL women are for......

I'm really not trying to be a smartass but this really struck me as straying pretty far from Christian beliefs.

No, I understand what you're trying to say.....thanks for bringing this up, I was just trying to show contrast, and did a poor job doing so.....

[a4a]

Interesting interpretation.....Of course I read the New Testament. I read the whole bible in it's CONTEXT.Helpmate:

–noun

 

1. a companion and helper.

2. a wife or husband.

3. anything that aids or assists, esp. regularly: This calculator is my constant helpmate.

 

Now....tell me....what's so wrong with the word, "helpmate"??

 

This doesn't mean that the scripture says that is ALL women are for......No, I understand what you're trying to say.....thanks for bringing this up, I was just trying to show contrast, and did a poor job doing so.....

 

 

I have a problem with helpmate...... says to me tool, to be used......

 

The whole thing is rather condesending IMHO.

[Topper]

There are many things written in the new testament that can be interpreted as putting woman in a second position to men. The most notable is the phrase submit to your husband. There is also the passage by Paul that says that a woman should be silent and not teach or preach to men. For centuries these and other Bible text were used to show women that they were inferior to men. It is only in resent years that there has been a interpretation of theses text.

But even in this day and age many Christian communities still point to the new testament and the Teachings of Paul as proof that a woman's place is only as a wife and help mate to her husband. The bible also teaches that a man should treat his wife with love and respect. Yet these passages are often over looked by the men who will point to the passages that a woman must submit to her husband.

[Moose]

Yet these passages are often over looked by the men who will point to the passages that a woman must submit to her husband.

Exactly. Which in turn leaves a bad taste in many mouths to where they'll shoot down the whole concept of a religous, traditional unity.....

[DanielMadr]

There are many things written in the new testament that can be interpreted as putting woman in a second position to men. The most notable is the phrase submit to your husband. There is also the passage by Paul that says that a woman should be silent and not teach or preach to men. For centuries these and other Bible text were used to show women that they were inferior to men. It is only in resent years that there has been a interpretation of theses text.

But even in this day and age many Christian communities still point to the new testament and the Teachings of Paul as proof that a woman's place is only as a wife and help mate to her husband. The bible also teaches that a man should treat his wife with love and respect. Yet these passages are often over looked by the men who will point to the passages that a woman must submit to her husband.

 

Bible is no rule book. Only rules is actually Ten Commandments. There are some guidelines how to manage social life made on past circumstances and changed regurarly when situation demands it...you can see that clearly in Bible. Teachings of Jesus are the most important, because he tried to give sense how to live according to Ten Commandments and generally in peace and harmony. He was right. Thats why his opinions are rule like. The rest is for information purposes only. How Paul or anybody else interpreted it is his problem.

Ten Commandments and Jesus teachings are OK. Rest is only history.

[Moai]

Bible is no rule book. Only rules is actually Ten Commandments. There are some guidelines how to manage social life made on past circumstances and changed regurarly when situation demands it...you can see that clearly in Bible.

 

You clearly have not read the Bible. There are more commandments than just the "ten." In fact, there are 613. Some of these concern purity and sacrifice, which are only applicable when there is a temple in Jerusalem, so if you were to follow all of them there are still 369 that apply today.

 

Teachings of Jesus are the most important, because he tried to give sense how to live according to Ten Commandments and generally in peace and harmony. He was right. Thats why his opinions are rule like. The rest is for information purposes only. How Paul or anybody else interpreted it is his problem.

Ten Commandments and Jesus teachings are OK. Rest is only history.

 

Nope. Jesus said follow "all" of my father's Commandments.

 

Interestingly, these commandments are "traditional" values. They predate Christianity, but were given out by Jesus' father. Judaism follows them to this day, because that is their tradition.

 

They're certainly strange and many of them inconvenient, so scripture is pulled out to allow most people to ignore them.

 

The fact is, what one would consider "traditional" today was new a century or two ago, or in many cases less time than that.

 

Polygamy was once a tradition. It is now illegal in the West. "spare the rod, spoil the child" was once considered a truism. Beating your child with a stick is considered a crime now.

 

It is simplistic to suggest that if a couple follows "tradition" that their marriage will be fine. I posted statistics in an earlier post that show the opposite is true. The idea of the nuclear family that came out of the 1950s may work for some isolated couples now, but that is a rarity. I would maintain that if a marriage lasts, it is because both people see relationships the same way--traditional or otherwise--and work hard to maintain it. The values that the partners share certainly must be the same, but they need not be "traditional."

[Topper]

Danielmarder, Moia beat me to the punch. I do not identify myself as a Christian. Yet I have a much great understanding of The Bible then I would say most Christians. They often can point out one or two passages that support their position yet i will find dozens that contradicts what that are trying to prove.

Some of those so called guidelines will according to the Bible result in death.

[lonelybird]

Eh.

 

Some years ago, when my faith was more intact and vibrant, I dated a (Christian) man who, after the honeymoon period, treated me rather badly. Not physical abuse, but a lot of emotional push-pull, mixed messages, hurtful and selfish stuff. I stayed with him on/off for over two years because I loved him and thought that unconditional love, of Christ, could help heal him from the hurts that were leading him to treat me badly.

 

It didn't really turn out that way. After 2+ years, he dumped me, saying some rather cruel things, blaming me for everything wrong with us. On top of being clinically depressed because of his gaslighting behavior, I was completely devastated. It took months of counseling and anti-depressants to get back on my feet. And only much later did it turn out that he is gay: he had been in such a state of denial that he externalized his confusion and turned it all on me.

 

Looking back on how I handled myself in that relationship, I believe now that I over-spiritualized it. I was in prayer day in, day out for him, believing that God could heal and redeem him and that I could show him what real Christ-like love was all about. I couldn't. No amount of selfless, Christ-like love could have transformed him into the loving partner that I thought existed within him.

 

And it never occurred to me to just walk away from the relationship. I loved him and Christ didn't give up on me, so why should I give up on him?

 

 

 

The lack of self love part was not true for me; I had no lack of self-esteem or an independent life, interests, and friends. I did lack healthy boundaries, but I must say that the need for healthy boundaries was never a message conveyed to me through my church community. That's a rather new idea, one I doubt you would find in the pop psychology literature - or Christian literature - much before the late 80s or even early 90s. The message I grew up with in my church was one of women's submission to men, and of selfless, unconditional love for others.

 

I now wholly and completely believe in the idea of healthy boundaries in relationships - but please do show me where in Scripture this idea is supported? I am not sure it actually comes from Christian theology; it seems more likely that the church is expropriating this idea from psychology to help make the submission scriptures more palatable.

Sorry, sunshinegirl, I missed this post.

Your experience is so much like mine. I did the SAME thing, I lost my trust on God, but later I found my Faith in God again, and stronger, have a new understanding than before.

 

About healthy boundary, yes, in Bible there are, let me quote it for you

1 Cor 7:3(1)A man should fulfill his duty as a husband, and a woman should fulfill her duty as a wife, and each should satisfy the other's needs.

Do you see? It is a mutal thing, not one side thing. and unconditional love is good thing. But you must have it in the first place, from our Lord. when you want to offer unconditional love to another person, first ask yourself "if I don't get it back from this person, can I still be satisfied?" if answer is Yes, then go for it. if answer is NO, then don't do it. there is a trap for this "unconditional love"

 

Eph 5:23(1)For a husband has authority over his wife just as Christ has authority over the church; and Christ is himself the Savior of the church, his body.

Eph 5:33(2)But it also applies to you: every husband must love his wife as himself, and every wife must respect her husband.

Here is healthy boundaries. Husband must love their wife as love themselves. so when husband fail to do this, it is the time the wife stand up for herself.

What Jesus did for church? He sacrificed His own life for the church. Can a husband also do so for his wife? If he fail to love his wife as love himself, his wife should communicate with her husband in a respective way, so both of them can stay in the right course with Jesus Christ. If the wife don't speak out when the husband fail, her husband probably would go far and far from our Lord. As you know, if our Lord love us so much, how can He endure to see us being abused? Not make sense! Our Lord want YOU to have a joyful, rebundant life! You deserve to have it!

 

There are two kinds of sacrifice. 1. willingly sacrifice 2. forced sacrifice. the first one bring joy (which is our Lord want it from us); the second one bring frustration and damage.

 

If we can fully comprehend the love of Lord toward us, it is easier to make decisions in life which lead to win-win