Traditions, religion and respect

[Moose]

Take a look at what's happening in practice.

When you say this, we as Christians do see what's happening in practice. And what WE see happening is that marriage is falling away from God's design.

 

Society is now telling women that they are no longer to be submissive, and to, "take charge", of their own lives. The traditional values are being stomped on, and that always leads to destruction. History has taught us all that.

The reality of all of this is that the "submissive woman" mindset is leaving too much room for abuse and makes the woman a second-class element in her own marriage by her own convictions.

A woman of this caliber would know that God would deal with her husband Himself. If her husband is not treating her like Christ treats the Church, he will pay the price.

Because she has too much respect for this theory and these traditions, she ends up beliving that the fact that she's seen only as second to the man is normal, therefore stretching the limits of the kind of crap she tolerates from him to the point where she doesn't know what's acceptable and what's not anymore.

Again, a woman with these convictions would refer back to the scriptures for guidance.

 

You're on the outside looking in princessa. "I am Woman, hear me roar", is a NEW idea. One that was designed by the ultimate liar to destroy God's creation of marriage.

 

You make it out that husbands come home, go to the torture room to gather his weapons, and then lashes out on his wife.

 

Not so......in fact, it is the very opposite. When there is a clear definition of who the head of the household is, the pecking order, (so to speak), causes security in the marriage.

 

If the husband doesn't worship his wife, and loves her more than his own life, he will be dealt with according to God's will......

 

Same goes for the wife......

[sunshinegirl]

I don't know, Moose. I think in some marriages this kind of role clarity can work out, but I have a hard time with this blithe-seeming comment:

 

A woman of this caliber would know that God would deal with her husband Himself.

 

A Christian friend of mine married a Christian guy who really seemed to abuse and misuse the notion of leadership and obedience as you understand it. He was extremely verbally abusive toward my friend and would say things like "get behind me, woman! I am the head of this household and you will obey me!" No kidding, he actually said stuff like that. And far worse - I think she was ashamed to tell me all the details, but I know that she had a suitcase packed and in the trunk of her car in case she needed to make a quick escape with their toddler daughter.

 

Just so I'm clear - in the face of that kind of behavior from her husband, your view would be that my friend, his wife, should just take comfort in knowing that God will deal with her husband Himself? Should she continue to 'submit' under those conditions? Is it a mistake or wrong for her to have an escape plan?

[Moose]

A Christian friend of mine married a Christian guy who really seemed to abuse and misuse the notion of leadership and obedience as you understand it. He was extremely verbally abusive toward my friend and would say things like "get behind me, woman! I am the head of this household and you will obey me!" No kidding, he actually said stuff like that.

My first reaction to this is that this man may not be a true believer, or at the very least needs to read more Scripture. He's taking our faith and using it for his own gain, and this is why most Christians are ridiculed for people like this. I would really question his faith....

Just so I'm clear - in the face of that kind of behavior from her husband, your view would be that my friend, his wife, should just take comfort in knowing that God will deal with her husband Himself?

Not only should she take comfort, she should feel peace knowing that she's complying with God's plan of marriage.

Should she continue to 'submit' under those conditions?

Yes, she should. If she is a true believer, God would come first in her life, not her husband. If she's in the will of God, she will have peace within knowing that she's, (at least), doing her job.

Is it a mistake or wrong for her to have an escape plan?

If her husband becomes physically abusive, yes....she should pack up her child and leave.

[Moai]

Well, the number of people who are True Christians must be a small number indeed.

 

According to the Barna research group (a conservative Christian organization) did a study, and they found this:

 

11% of all American adults are divorced

25% of all American adults have had at least one divorce

 

 

27% of born-again Christians have had at least one divorce

24% of all non-born-again Christians have been divorced

 

 

21% of atheists have been divorced

21% of Catholics and Lutherans have been divorced

24% of Mormons have been divorced

25% of mainstream Protestants have been divorced

29% of Baptists have been divorced

24% of nondenominational, independent Protestants have been divorced

 

 

27% of people in the South and Midwest have been divorced

26% of people in the West have been divorced

19% of people in the Northwest and Northeast have been divorced

 

The highest divorce rates are in Tennessee, Alabama, Arkansas and Oklahoma. Divorce rates in those states are 50% above the national average.

 

Also, if you look at the states that have the highest percentage of conservative Christians amongst their populations, their rates of drug abuse, teen pregnancy, abortion, and divorce are the highest. That is to say, the "red" states. How can this be?

[Moose]

How can this be?

Society has been tricked by Satan, and is on a Spiritual de-moralization trip. That's how.....and it'll only get worse.....

[princessa]

I understand what you are saying, and there are some very healthy marriages out there where the woman chooses to submit to the authority of her husband. Christian or not, as long as the choice is made of free will and not forced then lets just say they are excluded from this conversation.

 

See, that's what I used to think. Only I've come to realize that these marriages only appear to be healthy. It is only an image that we get when we're outside the marriage looking in, the only thing that we see is that everything runs smoothly. Well, everything does run smoothly indeed, when everything is run under one unquestionable authority. On a ship there can only be one commander, and that is the captain. Everybody else is a subordinate, paticipating in the decisions, but they can nevertheless be vetoed by the commander for any reason. Where there's a respected hierarchy, things will always run smoothly.

 

My point is that marrige is not a ship, nor a hierarchy. Men and women are equal, and must participate in decisions jointly, because it is both of their lives that are at stake. Note that this is different from appearing to have one commander in the house in front of the kids or in any situation that requires the couple to present a united front. Usually here there will be some heated discussion in the background if both husband and wife do not agree on which front to present, but will always appear to agree in front of their kids or anybody else.

 

What I'm talking about here is that this mentality promotes a right of veto for the men, to whom the woman is second. This is exactly why the hierarchy works and why things appear to be running so smoothly. Because when there are arguments, the men just use their right of veto and forfeit any influence that the woman tries to exert, with which the women go along solely by "tradition". Whether they do it out of free will or not, they are giving up their lives and freedom in this way, by ceding some of the most important decisions that affect their day-to-day lives, which then further encourages the men to veto their decisions. In the end these women become so used to being second to everything that they don't even know what they want for themselves, they lose the notion of demanding respect and consideration for their opinions. A woman who doesn't know what she wants or how she should be treated, a woman who doesn't know what dignity and respect look like, coupled with these traditions, leaves the door wide-open for abuse.

[princessa]

When you say this, we as Christians do see what's happening in practice. And what WE see happening is that marriage is falling away from God's design.

 

Society is now telling women that they are no longer to be submissive, and to, "take charge", of their own lives. The traditional values are being stomped on, and that always leads to destruction. History has taught us all that.

 

Moose, notice that at the beginning of my post, I have set the context talking specifically about those women who were :

1. Educated

2. Liberal

3. Willing to debate their faith

 

These are the kinds of people that I'm interested in hearing from. You obviously have no interest in any meaningful debate about your faith, nor are you remotely liberal, so please stop hijacking my thread with your preachings. Thanks!

[Moose]

Look, you started the thread here, not me, and I agree with you to an extent. But here is my problem with how you're presenting it.

 

You're trying to place blame on religion and traditional values for the woes of the submissive woman.

 

My thinking is that if a woman finds her self in an abusive relationship, she needs to get out, and if she doesn't, then it's her own fault. My faith and traditional values that I choose to obied by does not in any way shape or form place the woman as a, "second class", citizen. In fact, most religions hold women in the highest regards.

 

When you attack religion and traditional values for something so bunk.....it deserves challenging....

[Rooster_DAR]

Society has been tricked by Satan, and is on a Spiritual de-moralization trip. That's how.....and it'll only get worse.....

 

 

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:(catches breath):laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Moai]

Society has been tricked by Satan, and is on a Spiritual de-moralization trip. That's how.....and it'll only get worse.....

 

Meaning Christians are being tricked? Or the religious are being tricked? Societies that are more atheistic do not have these problems to the degree the so-called "Bible Belt" does.

[burning 4 revenge]

Moose, notice that at the beginning of my post, I have set the context talking specifically about those women who were :

1. Educated

2. Liberal

3. Willing to debate their faith

 

These are the kinds of people that I'm interested in hearing from. You obviously have no interest in any meaningful debate about your faith, nor are you remotely liberal, so please stop hijacking my thread with your preachings. Thanks!

The idea of being liberal means open to ideas, so when you tell someone to not express their ideas and that you're not interested in hearing them you aren't being so liberal yourself.

[Rooster_DAR]

atheistic do not have these problems to the degree the so-called "Bible Belt" does

 

Try being stuck here in the bible belt, it's torture sometimes.

[burning 4 revenge]

Also, if you look at the states that have the highest percentage of conservative Christians amongst their populations, their rates of drug abuse, teen pregnancy, abortion, and divorce are the highest. That is to say, the "red" states. How can this be?

The South has traditionally been poorer and less well educated. Economic instability in the household usually means problems for relationships.

[Rooster_DAR]

The South has traditionally been poorer and less well educated. Economic instability in the household usually means problems for relationships.

 

 

Yes I agree here as well. It's funny, I was browsing a mapped encyclopedia that colored the countries that were the poorest in green. Nearly every one of those countries were in war, turmoil, or represented nations that hated the US.

 

Hmmmm

[princessa]

The idea of being liberal means open to ideas, so when you tell someone to not express their ideas and that you're not interested in hearing them you aren't being so liberal yourself.

 

What a great contribution to the thread

[Moai]

The South has traditionally been poorer and less well educated. Economic instability in the household usually means problems for relationships.

 

Poorer and less well-educated, and more Fundamentalist. But, if what believers assert is true (as usual, with no evidence and even evidence against their position), then it shouldn't matter. Surely the Holy Spirit would aid the True Christian to rise above such things?

[Moose]

Meaning Christians are being tricked? Or the religious are being tricked? Societies that are more atheistic do not have these problems to the degree the so-called "Bible Belt" does.

Both are actually...... "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--Matt. 24:24......the, "elect" are true believers that'll be deceived....doesn't matter what, "religion"......pretty much all of us will be, "tricked" into believing these false Christs and false prophets....

Societies that are more atheistic do not have these problems to the degree the so-called "Bible Belt" does.

And the reason is explained is above.....

Try being stuck here in the bible belt, it's torture sometimes.

And why would you say something like that....??? Feeling guilty about anything?? If you don't like it.....move....and I only say that because of your earlier comment.....You obviously don't give a flyin' rats behind what's in this thread.....so shouldn't you just move on??....

What a great contribution to the thread

What is it that you REALLY wanted to hear, princessa? Did you expect a conversation on YOUR level of, "intellegience" especially from the "Educated, Liberal, Women who, debate their own faith"??, (what an oxy-moron).....

 

Come on.....you don't run this world.....Satan has the reigns......you can either ride his wave, or realize the REAL order of things......

[princessa]

What is it that you REALLY wanted to hear, princessa? Did you expect a conversation on YOUR level of, "intellegience" especially from the "Educated, Liberal, Women who, debate their own faith"??, (what an oxy-moron).....

 

Come on.....you don't run this world.....Satan has the reigns......you can either ride his wave, or realize the REAL order of things......

 

I think most of the people in this thread would agree that you're the last person to judge anybody's intelligence, especially when you so matter-of-factly refer to Satan in your "arguments".

[Moose]

I think most of the people in this thread would agree that you're the last person to judge anybody's intelligence, especially when you so matter-of-factly refer to Satan in your "arguments".

Niave woman you are......there are two things that's existed since the beginning of, "time" as we know it......most define them in common language as good and evil.....I know it as God and Satan, other know it as Yen or Yang, you know it as, "woman and man"......get it?

[princessa]

Niave woman you are......there are two things that's existed since the beginning of, "time" as we know it......most define them in common language as good and evil.....I know it as God and Satan, other know it as Yen or Yang, you know it as, "woman and man"......get it?

 

Okay I think we've had enough laughs in this thread..

[Moose]

I think most of the people in this thread would agree that you're the last person to judge anybody's intelligence,

See....you took what I said as a judgement:

What is it that you REALLY wanted to hear, princessa? Did you expect a conversation on YOUR level of, "intellegience" especially from the "Educated, Liberal, Women who, debate their own faith"??, (what an oxy-moron).....

This was actually a, COMPLEMENT, with a correction....to edify you, not to put you down....

 

I hope you really learned something.....

 

Another note.....you happen to be somewhat of a contributor to the whole problem when you sport such an avatar......just a hint.....

[princessa]

Moose I'm not even going to waste my time talking to you since I already know that you're going to bring it back to the whole Satan story... In case you didn't notice, you lost your credibility somewhere in the beginning with something you said about women having been created for men. Good day!

[lonelybird]

You speak only of the theory that you know. Take a look at what's happening in practice. The reality of all of this is that the "submissive woman" mindset is leaving too much room for abuse and makes the woman a second-class element in her own marriage by her own convictions. Because she has too much respect for this theory and these traditions, she ends up beliving that the fact that she's seen only as second to the man is normal, therefore stretching the limits of the kind of crap she tolerates from him to the point where she doesn't know what's acceptable and what's not anymore.

No, princessa, she respect for this theory will not set her up for the mentality of being easily abused. It is the lack of self love, lack of healthy boundary which set her up for the mentality. If she believe in God, have faith in God, she would learn that God loves her as well as others, nothing make her less than others and her husband. We all know that a self respect person has healthy boundaries. As a person, we have rights just as others. If her husband step over the boundary, she would let he know in a respective way. But many women who had bad experience in the past don't trust in God, don't think God loves them, so when somebody treat them badly, they tolerate, thought it is normal. sometimes these women fear their partners leave them, try to please their partners more than God, so they set themselves in traps. IF they know God love them, and God don't like any abuse to wife, they would stand up for themselves, well, in a respective way

 

Submissive does NOT mean tolerate anything.

 

Man pleaser and God pleaser are very different. The former lead to frustration and lost of self, the later lead to success in every area of life, including marriage.

 

God is love, not hate. Love God and accept love of God is a good start to build up self love (not selfish though)

[sunshinegirl]

Submissive does NOT mean tolerate anything.

 

Eh.

 

Some years ago, when my faith was more intact and vibrant, I dated a (Christian) man who, after the honeymoon period, treated me rather badly. Not physical abuse, but a lot of emotional push-pull, mixed messages, hurtful and selfish stuff. I stayed with him on/off for over two years because I loved him and thought that unconditional love, of Christ, could help heal him from the hurts that were leading him to treat me badly.

 

It didn't really turn out that way. After 2+ years, he dumped me, saying some rather cruel things, blaming me for everything wrong with us. On top of being clinically depressed because of his gaslighting behavior, I was completely devastated. It took months of counseling and anti-depressants to get back on my feet. And only much later did it turn out that he is gay: he had been in such a state of denial that he externalized his confusion and turned it all on me.

 

Looking back on how I handled myself in that relationship, I believe now that I over-spiritualized it. I was in prayer day in, day out for him, believing that God could heal and redeem him and that I could show him what real Christ-like love was all about. I couldn't. No amount of selfless, Christ-like love could have transformed him into the loving partner that I thought existed within him.

 

And it never occurred to me to just walk away from the relationship. I loved him and Christ didn't give up on me, so why should I give up on him?

 

It is the lack of self love, lack of healthy boundary which set her up for the mentality.

 

The lack of self love part was not true for me; I had no lack of self-esteem or an independent life, interests, and friends. I did lack healthy boundaries, but I must say that the need for healthy boundaries was never a message conveyed to me through my church community. That's a rather new idea, one I doubt you would find in the pop psychology literature - or Christian literature - much before the late 80s or even early 90s. The message I grew up with in my church was one of women's submission to men, and of selfless, unconditional love for others.

 

I now wholly and completely believe in the idea of healthy boundaries in relationships - but please do show me where in Scripture this idea is supported? I am not sure it actually comes from Christian theology; it seems more likely that the church is expropriating this idea from psychology to help make the submission scriptures more palatable.

[DanielMadr]

How is it possible to have respect for "values" promoting the submissiveness of women while at the same time being fully educated about how dysfunctional these same values are?

 

Can you please elaborate what are these dysfunctional values?

 

While those same women are struggling against their opression, how can they still defend that culture and religion that put them in that miserable position in the first place? How do they not realize that their whole concept of respect is f*cked up and what they should really be respecting before anything else is their own safety and wellbeing, free of any controlling husbands, brothers, or fathers?

 

You are human being, you have human rights the same as everybody else anything ybove that is your problem to cope with.

What opression are you talking about?

 

Concept of respect? Never heard of that. All I know about respect is, it has to be earned. It cant be given.

 

Either you commit to relationship with slightly more dominant male than you are OR you go for relationship wher you would be the slightly dominant one OR you can wait for fairytale with 50/50.

 

Try to avoid that controlling types and stop whinning if you want to be respected.