A MAJOR question for all females...and men are welcome as well....

[Tony T]

This question is major because it's one that has puzzled me for a long time.

 

I am not one inclined to ever, ever get involved with a female who is dating someone...who has a boyfriend. But more and more, being the very slow learner I am, I am figuring out that a good percentage of females....and I'm not sure just what the percentage is....will not break up with a current boyfriend until they've got another guy lined up. I suppose it may be an insecurity thing but I see it very often.

 

Over my adult life, I have had many ladies with boyfriends (and even husbands) flirt with me...visit me repeatedly...ask me to do things with them, etc. and showed an interest that far exceeded the boundaries of a platonic friend. Being the idiot that I am, I have always backed off because they were seeing somebody. NOT ONE of them ever verbally expressed that they were interested in me, well some may have hinted a bit, but they really showed it in a serious way. I always make it a point to advise women with boyfriends I come in contact with that I never get involved in any way datingwise with ladies until they are totally free of any and all relationships and entangelements.

 

My question is: Just how many women who are reading this or people who are reading this are familiar with this concept? How often do women feel they have to have a new love interest solidly lined up before they break up with somebody? Is this the accepted thing these days? How did I miss out on this information?

 

So if a lady that I would normally be interested in if she was not seeing anybody shows a great interest in me (but she has a boyfriend), what is the proper way to proceed in today's society? My ethics and the laws of karma clearly tell me to back off until they are not in a relationship and fully available.

 

I would like to have as much as possible about this type of behavior because it is sort of driving me nuts to be in the dark. Should I change my position about this and get involved...if I know the lady who I would normally be interested in is only going to go to the next guy if I don't react positively? What I'm saying is if a female who has a boyfriend is intent on finding another before she leaves her guy, if I don't move in somebody else will....so what do you do here and still live with yourself?

 

Frankly, it would be hard for me to live with myself if I got involved with another man's lady...even if she was making all the moves and showing all the interest....but it just seems to me this sort of ritual has become a major part of the social structure and dating landscape.

 

Comments and information from women, men and even aliens would be greatly appreciated. Many kind thanks in advance for taking the time to reply.

[Bill]

Tony, I see this a lot as well. However, I haven't the slightest clue why they do this. Sometimes the women will even keep 2 men, while trying to decide which one is best for them. I won't ever be a part of that, not intentionally anyway.

[midori]

I can't speak on behalf of all women everywhere, but I will say that I don't do that. Not because I'm especially kind or ethical but because I can't bluff being happy if I'm not, and the only way I'd be on the lookout for another guy is if I wasn't happy with my current bf. There would be a break-up well before I found another guy, even if I did start looking first.

 

Probably not everyone is like that. This includes many men I know. It is hard to break up with someone, especially if you know that they will resist the break-up. Having another person lined up makes it easier in a couple of ways: 1. the person you're breaking up with will have a harder time arguing that you should stay together 2. while it seems worse (because it is worse) to have already transferred your affections to another person before breaking the news to your current partner, it is easier for the person doing the breaking up. They don't have to wonder "am I doing the right thing? what if I regret this?" because they can launch themselves right into the heady throes of a new romance. No regrets here! (not for a while anyway). And in some sense they can absolve themselves of "blame" for the break-up, just chalking it up to "fate" that they met someone else. Not something they were in control of. Not a deliberate course of action that they chose. It was just something that happened.

 

I maintain that men are just as likely to do it as women are. Of course, my experience is with men, just as Tony's & Bill's are with women. So we're each more likely to be aware of the opposite sex's tendency to pull this kind of stunt. But I'm willing to entertain the possibility that women are especially prone to doing this because it's the passive, non-confrontational way to get out of a relationship. Again, you might first think that this is very hurtful and controversial. But it's easier than sitting your partner down and thoughtfully discussing the reasons why you don't think the two of you should be together anymore.

 

As for what to do when confronted with this situation: I'd tell the person in question that as long as they're involved with someone else I'm not available to them because I don't need the drama. Really. I'd be very upfront about it too, "I'm not sure why but I have the impression that things are a bit complicated for you right now. Am I the only person you're involved with at the moment?" If the answer is anything other than a decisive no, then I'd tell them to not call me until that changes. I have no wish to be someone's relationship escape hatch. If they want to date me, they'll make sure they're free to do so without looking over their shoulder or taking furitive calls on their cellphone while we're out.

 

Not that that has happened to me recently (thank goodness). But I've reached the point where I have no patience for someone else's melodrama, cowardice or selfishness.

[Patty]

Some people don't know what they want out of life.I think that you happen to have the personality that ladies like.I think the ladies are just afraid to be to commited .But if your interested don't wait around for ladies to be totally free as you could be waiting forever.No,Tony your not a idiot.Don't be so hard on yourself dude!Even if someone is taken its ok to go out and do things and be friends for awhile.But I think in a way you must be afraid to be commited and get your heart broken.I dont blame you.

 

Im familiar with it.I think it has something to do with boredom.I think once it wares off people get tempted to be with other people.Have you ever watched Real World on MTV? I think you would learn alot from it.

 

Comments and information from women, men and even aliens would be greatly appreciated. Many kind thanks in advance for taking the time to reply.

 

Anytime!

 

Patty

[FlowerN9Petal]

Hey....i just wanted you to know i really liked your article....i think that if you get ivolved with someone they shouldnt be involved and totally over their ex.....because they will always wonder about their ex if they are not over the ex. If you get involved with someone who is seeing someone but is showing signs that she is interested in you...well thats your loss to an extent, she could really like you but that isnt fair on the guy she has been seeing. So she should brake it off with the guy...its not your fault...i mean if you like her and she likes you....well obviously she wasnt happy in her past relationship....not sure if this helps.

 

I got involved with my current bf..6 months ago...we're very happy together at the moment. But he rang me up after i havent seen him for 3 years back when i was younger we werent allowed to date so we broke up. Well he found my name in the yellow pages and rang me up to see what i was up to....he had no intention of anything more than just catching up on friendly terms. Only i fell in love with him even more...i never stopped loving him and he liked me a lot and was cuddling me on the first date, staring at me. I asked him if he really wanted to be with Ann....he said that he wants to go out with me....because he missed me and i seem to have a warm heart....we decided to just take things slow...he broke it off with Ann.

 

A 2 and half year relationship...then he played me, well was confused who he really loved cause he was me, fun and outgoing girl who he called sweet, and this bossy but stabble gf of so long. He dumped me after 3 months of going out, then he rang me a month later....and was crying so much one night....apologising and realising what he had chosen was wrong, that he is really in love with me. It hurt a lot and i never give people second chances....but i thought why not...i mean he did hurt me but he was very sincere this time. I knew he was seeing Ann while still seeing me, i felt it, he acted differently to now...because he was confused....i rang Ann up and she said you two are just friends and nothing more never were....as according to her, and i went off at Anthony.....who deserved it.

 

The trust has returned.....but now we're living with my parents together and her family has moved to our suburb..i dont seem to be able to get away from her...then the other day at the market...a swedish girl was talking to her parents and i asked is she sweedish or something....jokingly....Anthony said yes she is, and laughed cause he knows how it seems to haunt me. I trust that he wont hurt me again...not when he said i love you and through his actions proved to me how much i mean to him and how he has no feelings or intentions of going back to her....as far as im concerned....she wasnt a nice person...she broke into his house and stole money from him...then he broke her caravan at her parents place to try and get it back because it wasnt his....the caravan being his...a whole jumble but now she is out of our lives, i hope. The point being you never know what could happen...if someone cares about you and isnt going to be with their ex...it wasnt meant to be, and its a matter of trust....and well if someone wants to be with you, they will show it and you shouldnt feel bad if you go out with them....get involved...as long as their ex is in the past..or they are planning to brake it off soon with them..otherwise why see them if they are with someone...unless they are unhappy and are going to brake up with them. Just makes sure it isnt going to be the kind of thing where you're used as someone who is just there afta the brake up.

 

Take care,

All the best,

Lena

[Dragonflys]

Knowing you Tony I sense tongue and cheek here, so I'm not taking the bait!

I agree with you this is becoming a pattern, why is hard to fathom. My observations tell me that with increased freedom in the datingplace women are exploring it, but I'm pretty sure its only the subset of women that fall into the most extroverted dating pool. You seem to have great success in attracting women, and I think a lot of that has to do with your accepting attitude and commonsense approach. I find too that over the last couple of years I seem to attract the serial daters and the most extroverted types, even though while confident, I am far from so.

So bottom line is, I think its just the types we are encountering. The women who would never double date certainly wouldn't flirt so openly and you would have to get to know them for a while.

Regarding advice to you?..mmm I smell the prawn but I wasn't born yesterday like some fish.

 

Oliver

[midori]

but yeah, I too find it hard to believe that Tony, of all people, doesn't know how to spot & handle a woman who's into serial "committed" relationships.

 

But there do seem to be a lot of posts lately from people who are either the dumpee or the newbie who discovers that their new bf/gf wasn't up front about their relationship status when they met.

[Tony T]

I don't understand entirely the meaning of your post above but that's OK.

 

I see this behavior more as a syndrome or a commonly accepted way of doing business...rather than a case of individuals having serial relationships.

 

I have observed, and scientists gather much of their information from observations, that a great many females will not step out of a relationship until they have another one lined up. I don't know what the percentage is but it seems to be growing. This has not been my observation in males, perhaps because females likely initiate the breakups more often or perhaps my data collection senses are flawed. I will admit that men certainly have the potential for doing this but I don't see it a lot in men who are in steady relationships. I am absolutely sure it happens, no doubt about it. I just don't oberve it much in my samples.

 

A friend of mine, who is a divorce attorney, told me that he estimates 80 percent or more of his female clients have another male in mind, who they are either dating or plan to date (or live with or marry, etc.) at the time they are processing their divorces.

 

As far as my ability to spot and handle these types of people, I think I'm really damned good at it. The purpose of my post was to get a better idea of just how prevalent this behavior is...is it just the accepted way to be nowadays, at least for some...well, you can re-read all my questions in my first post.

 

If I couldn't spot this stuff, I wouldn't have raised the questions I did. So where my shortcoming is would be in not knowing how often this occurs or why...and if I should reconsider dating women who are trying to get away from their guys if this is becomming a standard protocol. It happens so often. I see this happening and their subsequent relationships often turn out pretty good...often in happy marriages.

 

Your posts on this subject have been very helpful, insightful and informative and I appreciate your input.

[midori]

my last post was mostly to Oliver, but the first one replied to your questions.

 

I don't think it's just women that do this. Maybe the women you encounter are more prone to it, and like I said above, it's possible that non-confrontational people might be more likely to do this kind of thing. In turn, it's possible that more women than men are "non-confrontational."

 

But I think it's a mistake to characterize this by gender. It blurs the issue. It's not a question of why do women do this, but why does anyone do it.

 

I don't think it's a growing trend either, although it may be that people in different stages of their lives are less willing to engage in messy confrontations with their current partners, preferring instead to sneak out the back door. Or they're less willing to face the prospect of being alone (the older you get, the smaller the dating pool, so hold on to what you've got until something better comes along). There are several possible explanations and I do think that it's something that, in the end, can only be answered on an individual basis. Trying to generalize a situation will lead you to ignore important differences. The bottom line would be, I think, whether or not you feel the woman in question is playing straight with you, and is in charge of her life and the decisions she makes. If so, why not give it a go?

[clia]

I think the types of people who do this (and yes, men do it, too) are the type of people who are afraid to be alone. These are the same people who will stay in a bad relationship just because it's much too scary to get out there and try to find someone else or to move on and be alone for awhile. For some people, being in a bad relationship is better than being in no relationship at all.

 

Going from relationship to relationship is easier in the sense that you never have to fully process the hurt or repurcussions of the last relationship. You just move right on to the next one. While I can understand the reasons for doing so, I don't believe it's healthy in the long run. The new person becomes "filler space" and a distraction of what is really going on. Then that relationship goes wrong, and the same thing keeps happening. I think you need that grieving time or time of self reflection to consider what to do differently the next time or to really consider what you want out of a relationship. I think these kinds of people tend to make the same mistakes over and over again.

 

I always look at these types of people with high caution. I know when I'm ending a relationship (or have been dumped!), that the last thing I want to do is jump right into another one. I also can't stand to be around people who aren't capable of being single or just being on their own. I don't want someone like that, nor do I want someone who will leave me the second they find someone "better." Personally, I don't even have to consider whether or not to take them up on their offer--they simply aren't the kind of people pesonality wise that I am attracted to.

 

I really don't think this is the accepted way of doing things, but I'm seeing it a lot more, too. I wonder if people are being less independent and more afraid of being alone nowadays? And if so, why? Or is this an age thing? Personally, I tend to think that people treat each other terribly in the dating world. I've noticed so much dishonesty and playing games and flat out lack of caring about other people's feelings. I don't think it used to be like this when I was younger. I wonder if as people get older and go through the dating game, if they just get more bitter and jaded, and they simply have been burned so many times that they are numb to what they are doing to other people, and think it's the norm. Along the same lines, after dealing with hurt after hurt, it is easier to have another person lined up to take your mind off it. I'm sure most people don't want to go through the hurt of a failed relationship if they can help it.

[quankanne]

... yeah "problem," because I don't agree with the practice of lining up the next SO/spouse while still involved with the first. Yuck, just look at J.Lo, who I think is turning into a serial bride with the intent to beat Liz Taylor's record, or Billy Bob Thornton, for that matter. I just don't get it ... But I do know that for a relationship to work out, there has to be trust, and respect, as well as feelings of love. It makes you wonder what them folks have running through their minds whenever they do that, or is it justified because they're "in love"?

 

as for people I actually know, I've seen it happen more with women in marriages, and men with girlfriends – they've got someone lined up before they dump their significant other. Insecurity? maybe. Bad taste? definitely!

 

I say to not lower your standards if you feel it's not right to this kind of thing, no matter how attracted you are to someone. Chances are, if that person is willing to cheat on or go behind their SO's/spouses back to pursue YOU, then he/she will most likely do the same to you!

[HokeyReligions]

I can sorta see two sides. I have dated multiple men. Well, 3 men at one time -- a 2 year stretch. 2 of the men were dating other women. In each case I Never made a verbal commitment to "go steady" and therefore was free to date others. In one case the man felt or thought that we had made a commitment to date only each other even though we never talked about it. He was angry when he found out that I was seeing others, then we talked about it and decided to keep dating anyway because we had fun. I was NOT having sex with them though -- in this day and age it seems like people (even on a 1st date) have goodnight-sex instead of a kiss goodnight!

 

I don't know anyone that would be in a committed relationship and look for others to date without ending the relationship first, but I can sorta understand it. It is scary and we get used to things. It's easier to go to a new job when you quit one, then after a period of unemployment. Same with people. I've seen men do this too and I don't know that it's more prevalent in women.

 

I look at it this way, if I were single, and someone were interested in me, but they were already in a relationship, I would go out with them once and talk and get to know them. Then I would decide if I wanted to continue dating them (isn't that how it still works?) and if I did want to keep seeing them, I would tell them that I just could not do it while they were still in a relationship and I would tell them to either fix their current relationship or get out of it before coming to me. Then I would be prepared to be the rebound.

 

If I were in a relationship and I became interested in someone else, I would do the same thing. Ask myself WHY I was interested and either fix it or get out. Its easier (at least for me) if one is single. I got out of the relationships because it wasn't fair to either of us. In a marriage I work hard at staying together and fixing the problem.

[Debster]

It goes back to the old saying

 

"The best way to get over a man, is to get under another"

 

I've only done that once or twice when I was younger, and both times it had nothing to do with the guy (though at the time I thought it did). Instead, it had to do with me not wanting to be alone and finding someone I 'thought' was better to get me out of the other relationship.

 

The relationship never worked out.

 

I say DON'T change your ethics or morals for anyone. It is a part of you that makes you, you.

 

Do you really want to be with a woman who's just looking for the next ride in the banana hammock? From what little I know about you Tony, from reading the posts, I'm almost 100% sure you'd say No.

[mimi]

I do it all the time!

[Tony T]

Thank you for your kind reply and it's nice to know that you do this. However, I already know people do this. I am seeking various people's reasons why they don't get out of relationships until they have somebody else to be with. I am looking for people's own personal take.

 

I am also desiring to know just how prevalent this practice is...and what people's experiences are...the upsides and the downsides.

 

So, I guess what I hope you can do is expound on your post a little and give more of your thoughts on this subject.

 

Many thanks!!!

[traveller girl]

Tony, I played the game you are describing once quite consciously.

 

I had just moved to a new country where I didn't know anyone and immediately one guy showed great interest in me. I didn't like him all that much, but I dated him anyway just to avoid loneliness. Eventually I just sort of got used to him. It lasted a lot longer than I intended - a year and a half. And he became a lot more serious than I expected. I never treated him particularly well, and I sensed he would never leave me anyway, so I didn't have to. I never even bothered to bluff being happy.

 

It was so twisted that my boyfriend knew I was hanging out with the new guy all the time and didn't even do anything about it. Finally, true to my intentions, I did break up with him as soon as it became apparent that the new guy was really interested in me. My boyfriend was devasted. He wrote to my friends and colleagues how much I'd hurt him. He even wrote to the new guy to tell him that he'd never love me as much as he did. That guy then dumped me after a year or so. I was crazy about him, too. I deserved to be dumped, though, after the havoc I'd reaped the previous year.

 

I would never allow that situation to happen again, meaning that I'm in a relationship just until someone better comes along. If I don't feel like the relationship is going anywhere, I don't waste anyone's time or emotions by prolonging it. I don't know what else to say other than I was a lot younger at the time (22? 23?) and not very sensitive to other people's feelings. I was also not able to function in a new culture being totally by myself. I look back and shudder in disbelief at how I behaved...

[elycium]

In simplest terms: codependency.

[Kat]

It is hard to classify flirting these days. You can ask a guy if he wants a coffee at work and suddenly you like him.

 

To answer your question, I do not lead guys on, period. If I do not like them I do not give them signals. It is as simple as that. Not only do they think they have a chance and make the 'relationship' that we already have strained, but I am then put in an awkward position if he ever asks for us to "go further".

 

If my some chance I do and it is an accident, I explain to them and apologise for the mis understanding, then probably ask them out for a beer (as mates fo course, note, I am in Australia).

 

If I am in a relationship, I don't look period. I have broken up with my ex and had no one to fall back on, and I didn't want anyone. If this relationship ever ends (knock wood) I am not going to be looking for anyone to 'keep me company' any time soon, nor will I be intrested in playing the field

[velos142]

I have behaved in exactly this fashion & I agree with many of the others that a lot of it has to do with a fear of being alone. The really discomforting aspect of it is that I know that I should take the time to process the old relationship before jumping feet first into the new. But, I guess I percieve a pressure to be with some one - from my family, friends in relationships or society in general.

 

I do think that current cultural mores place a premium on being in a relationship - the reality TV shows are about more than voyeurism, profit & 15 minutes of fame. There are, sadly, some pretty desperate souls out there. The mood of our society has shifted toward a more conservative bent & that bent stresses the stability & value of togetherness more that the indivdualism of recent decades.

 

I don't know if these observations contribute to what Tony & others have observed (& I myself have experienced) but it is reasonable to infer that (assuming these pressures exist & are not figments of my own imagination) that the more atomistic society becomes i.e. the more diffuse our contacts with one another become, the more distance we place between ourselves & others & the less we actually communicate, share & get involved with our communities the more attractive it becomes to simply slide from relationship to relationship, using them as some sort of social-emotional safety net.

[Bill]

In simplest terms: Old post.

[cindy0039]

I can't really answer Tony's original question because I haven't done what he describes, nor do I know any women who have...honestly. Now I have known a lot of men who won't break up with women or file for divorce until they have another woman, and that includes my experience in the legal field. I've also experienced a lot of married men hitting on me. They're unhappy in their marriages (or so they say) but not willing to get the divorce until they have another woman waiting. By the way, I'm married so I don't respond to these losers. I would guess that it goes both ways, and that most of the posters have it right. I particularly liked clia's post. Good luck in your quest Tony.

[Angel]

Tony,

 

In my experience, women who do this are not really in love with the guy they are with and they are looking for a back-up or replacement boyfriend. I think you are an ethical and thinking man and that is why you are having trouble with this one. Since you know that they are dating someone, at least they are being honest with you. Nevertheless, try to find someone who is completely available (good luck) but if you are attracted to this gal--go for it. Just go in with your eyes open. If you are the bigger (no pun intended)better deal--you may end up with her.

 

To answer your question as to if this behavior is okay nowadays--everyone has different values and morals. Since it's the EVERYTHING IS OKAY generation---I guess so, for some.

 

Some people (not just women) do not like to be alone. Sometimes it has nothing to do with being needy--some are from big families and have never really been alone, some enjoy the company of others (all the time) etc. etc. And of course there are those people who are just dysfunctionally needy.

 

I hope this post is helpful.

[jenny]

what an interesting and challenging post!

 

my perspective is slightly different, maybe kind of naive, but i have felt it every time i know i have had a vaguely wandering eye.

 

ok:

 

#1: it seems unethical to me to have a male friend, with whom, given the extenuating proper circumstances, etc, (no matter how extreme) that i would not sleep with. I have had too many male friends treated terribly by other women that have no interest in them, at all. simply: hormones make us attend.

 

 

#2: I am young and alive and curious. i wonder about my friends and colleagues as much as any man. what would they sound like? how ferocious would they be? would i get breakfast or just a cold walk home?

 

 

#3: why not become friends with men i find attractive? i would never actually try to seduce you unless i felt prepared to carry it through, physically and emotionally. it's true i might have another, you might have another, but life is too short not to try things out if real emotion is present. are not men, honestly, friendlier with women they find, frankly, eminently ****able? i'm acting in the interest of my biology, not some imposed xtian morality; i imagine you are too.

 

 

#4: would you (men, in general) really prefer that we always behave that straightforwardly? for instance, the moment we notice a man whose neck or wit or sadness or ass-in-jeans catches our eye we stop being the girlfriend of our current man? is this what you would do? give us a bit more credit for logic and for the zeal of curiosity.

 

#5: this: not all vacillating women are codependent victims. i love the uncertainty of dating and don't totally understand the desire to label people as "co-ey" if they fall in and out of love. between ancient love literature and the postmodern self-help books i suppose i've made my choice, and i am content.

 

xoxox j

[flower]

My view: The lady does not tell you directly she likes you as she is attached. You do not tell her directly you like her and assure her you would wait for her to break up before pursuing a relationship with her. This explains why both are in the grey and driving both of you nuts!

 

The lady wants a win/win situation. She does not want to end up with nobody as she is usually the type that is good enough to have somebody by her side. She is dependent emotionally/financially. It is selfish human nature/risk averse mentality at play. Less committed nature.

 

It is your ethics/values at play.

 

The world changes fast these day, human changes fast too. The fittest survive. If the lady is worth it, you tell her clearly you like her, will wait for her after she breaks up. To cut out the agonising guessing part. Else, nothing will get moving.

 

To couples out there, this is a great motivator to keep the sparks with your beloved one in your daily lives before their love changes. Have you told your beloved one you love them today! I am working hard, are you? (^.^)

[keri2003]

hey tony,

well i'm a woman so I can put my two cents in. I have seen alot of this,women flirting with other men and having boy friends or husbands I guess it has to do with not being satisfied with their current relationships, not in some areas like sex or chemistry. Some women just plain don't think 1 man is enough and will try to find another to have twice the fun. i guess, it is kind of a insecurity for women sometimes, and that they have to have another guy they know will stay with them, or be their back up guy if the original relationship doesn't work out as well as they wished. Like most of us, some people just don't wanna be alone, with no where to be after a relationship ends. and sometimes, women just get another guy to make their husbands or bf's jealous because sometimes they don't seem to have the same interest in them, as in the beginning. it really varies.

 

You were good on the not getting involved with the women with boyfriends or husbands, that would of been a nasty tangle of events. You can wait till the woman is out of the relationship and fully free, or you can discuss with her, if her relationship really isn't working out that she talk over things w/her bf or husband and end it on their own terms and then you come in.

 

hope I helped some.

 

lost of luv,

keri