Is there any hope for us? (LONG)

[El-Producto]

Thank you so much for that Lady Jane, I know it's what I need to hear. I'm just so screwed up right now, I never thought I would be like this. I can't eat, can't sleep, have no ability to concentrate at work.

 

I am seeing a counseller by myself, as well as a different one for the two of us.

 

I just don't understand how she could do that. I just don't. And that's what is eating me up inside. I'm going to really let her have it at the couple counselor today. She is going to get ALL of my feelings.

 

Unfortunately, I would never tell anyone because I know in this small town, it would devastate her, and I'm not that type of person. I also don't want my daughters to have to live with that stigma, it's not fair to them.

 

Anyway ,I'm writing a letter to her, that I am going to take to the counselor today, and read it to her.

 

Any suggestions on what I should say would be appreciated, thank you.

[Gunny376]

Listen to LJ ~ EP, she's spot ~ dead on!

 

Par the course for LJ ~ I might add!

[El-Producto]

Here is the letter that I have written, names have been changed.

 

Dear Wife

 

 

 

How could you do this to me? I have lost so much respect for you, it pains me to think about it. You willfully broke a promise that we made to each other. You have ignored the vows that we shared, in order to fulfill a void that you are telling me I am responsible for. And with a man old enough to be your father. I feel so stupid for encouraging you to go on a business trip alone with OM, and I even said it was okay for you to share a room, but I would have no idea you would sleep with a man old enough to be your father. . I should have known when you only called me twice in one week, and when you returned and I gave you a huge embrace to show you that I missed you so much, you went totally cold, and treated me like I did something wrong.

I accept blame for 50% to the problems and deficits of our marriage, but you have 100% to blame for your decision to cheat. You lied to me on two occasions to my face, when I asked if you were having an affair. You decided that you should tell our counsellor, your mother and your friend , but decided that you would save me the anguish by keeping it a secret and allowing me to cling on to hope while we went to counseling. Some of those things that you have said to me, about how I disrespected you, and ignored you throughout our marriage are true, but I think you need to look at your own values and morals because cheating on your husband does not involve respect and love. You are the only person I have shared my body with, and you are telling me that I was unable to give your body what it needs. I believe that you are telling me that, because you can't own up to your own dysfunction. Something that I was always willing to help you with.

I understand that you are vulnerable, and that OM somehow fills that void that you seek. Something which I will never understand. But in your writing you stated that the two of you were too close to crossing the line(whatever line that is), and that you had to stop it before rumors got started, and I got hurt. Well, then why did you decide to continue your relationship with OM, a second time while I was staying at my parents with the kids so YOU could have space. I don't understand how you can make excuses for what you did. You state that he makes you feel normal, something that I never did. You are rationalizing the crime that you have commited, and it's unacceptable. You are rewriting the history of our marriage in order to lessen the guilt that you are feeling. And to me, that is just as bad as the terrible act that you have commited. And in regards to OM, any man that would knowingly have intimate relations with a MARRIED woman, has got to have some messed up beliefs, and values. I only hope you can recognize that before you get hurt. I only hope that you can recognize his motives. He has been alive a lot longer, and in many more relationships than you. The man knows exactly what you want to hear, especially when you are vulnerable.

[i am also very hurt by the fact that you are not ending your relationship with the man. You took OUR children to a get-together in which OM was there with his children. I don't think that's ok, and what you are doing is NOT for the children, I believe its an excuse.

Yes we made a connection that night. And yes I feel very close to you. I don't hate you, but it is going to take a LOT of time for me to find it in my heart to forgive you for what you have done to me. Because keep in mind, in MY eyes we are still married. I only hope that I can start to gain some strength, because I'm falling apart.

 

Love

 

El-Producto

[Gunny376]

Any suggestions on what I should say would be appreciated, thank you.

 

"I'M A MAN!

I'VE GOT MY PRIDE!

I DON'T NEED NO WOMAN ~ HURTING ME INSIDE!

 

STOMPING AROUND IN MY BOOTS

KICKING MY DOG AROUND!

 

DON'T BE GOING!

BE GONE!

YOU LOSER *#^$&%*!

[Gunny376]

Here is the letter that I have written, names have been changed.

 

Dear Wife

 

 

 

How could you do this to me? I have lost so much respect for you, it pains me to think about it. You willfully broke a promise that we made to each other. You have ignored the vows that we shared, in order to fulfill a void that you are telling me I am responsible for. And with a man old enough to be your father. I feel so stupid for encouraging you to go on a business trip alone with OM, and I even said it was okay for you to share a room, but I would have no idea you would sleep with a man old enough to be your father. . I should have known when you only called me twice in one week, and when you returned and I gave you a huge embrace to show you that I missed you so much, you went totally cold, and treated me like I did something wrong.

I accept blame for 50% to the problems and deficits of our marriage, but you have 100% to blame for your decision to cheat. You lied to me on two occasions to my face, when I asked if you were having an affair. You decided that you should tell our counsellor, your mother and your friend , but decided that you would save me the anguish by keeping it a secret and allowing me to cling on to hope while we went to counseling. Some of those things that you have said to me, about how I disrespected you, and ignored you throughout our marriage are true, but I think you need to look at your own values and morals because cheating on your husband does not involve respect and love. You are the only person I have shared my body with, and you are telling me that I was unable to give your body what it needs. I believe that you are telling me that, because you can't own up to your own dysfunction. Something that I was always willing to help you with.

I understand that you are vulnerable, and that OM somehow fills that void that you seek. Something which I will never understand. But in your writing you stated that the two of you were too close to crossing the line(whatever line that is), and that you had to stop it before rumors got started, and I got hurt. Well, then why did you decide to continue your relationship with OM, a second time while I was staying at my parents with the kids so YOU could have space. I don't understand how you can make excuses for what you did. You state that he makes you feel normal, something that I never did. You are rationalizing the crime that you have commited, and it's unacceptable. You are rewriting the history of our marriage in order to lessen the guilt that you are feeling. And to me, that is just as bad as the terrible act that you have commited. And in regards to OM, any man that would knowingly have intimate relations with a MARRIED woman, has got to have some messed up beliefs, and values. I only hope you can recognize that before you get hurt. I only hope that you can recognize his motives. He has been alive a lot longer, and in many more relationships than you. The man knows exactly what you want to hear, especially when you are vulnerable.

[i am also very hurt by the fact that you are not ending your relationship with the man. You took OUR children to a get-together in which OM was there with his children. I don't think that's ok, and what you are doing is NOT for the children, I believe its an excuse.

Yes we made a connection that night. And yes I feel very close to you. I don't hate you, but it is going to take a LOT of time for me to find it in my heart to forgive you for what you have done to me. Because keep in mind, in MY eyes we are still married. I only hope that I can start to gain some strength, because I'm falling apart.

 

Love

 

El-Producto

 

Forget that metrosexual crap!

 

It time to get "John Wanye" on her azz!

 

Like I said!

 

You want this marriage, you want her? You got a snowball chance in Hell ~ get "John Wayne" on her!

[Ladyjane14]

I'm just so screwed up right now, I never thought I would be like this. I can't eat, can't sleep, have no ability to concentrate at work.

 

You need TIME in order to grieve. This has all been a huge shock for you. Your best bet right now is to eat right, sleep right, get the appropriate physical exercise, and avoid alcohol. Be your own best friend a little bit, you know?

This kind of stress is hard on the body and hard on the mind. Keep the body healthy, and give the mind some TIME.

 

I am seeing a counseller by myself, as well as a different one for the two of us.

 

Good plan.

I want you to talk to your therapist about what I discussed in my earlier post to you today. Don't walk away from this thing shouldering all the blame. You'll just end up with emotional "baggage" to be carried into your next relationship. So... while it's important for you to address whatever deficits you brought into the marriage, it's damaging if you take on more than what was REALLY your share.

 

 

Any suggestions on what I should say would be appreciated, thank you.

 

My best advice to you is to remain NONCOMMITTAL on virtually every subject until you've had a chance to digest all that's happened. Your WW has had PLENTY of time with all this. You've had none. Don't rush into anything.

 

In the meantime... take good care of yourself physically. Make your kids your priority. And be HONEST with your therapist about how you're feeling.

[Ladyjane14]

I understand that you are vulnerable, and that OM somehow fills that void that you seek. Something which I will never understand.

 

This is the only thing I saw that needs correcting. Either you "understand" or you don't, right? Add paragraphs too.

 

Other than that, it looks fine.

That said, I think you should give it to your therapist and NOT your wife. I very much doubt that she's capable of interpreting the information in any kind of positive way anyhow. This letter will go right over her head. It's value to the counselor though could be inestimable.

[El-Producto]

Thanks for the tips.. it didn't format when I copied and pasted. Why should I only give it to the counselor, why would she find it useful?

[El-Producto]

I'm so confused. My wife just called me from work, and said that she is going to stop working with him, and stop being around him, until we work this out.

[Gunny376]

I'm so confused. My wife just called me from work, and said that she is going to stop working with him, and stop being around him, until we work this out.

 

This means nothing ~ just fog talk!

 

Priortize things ~

 

Yourself

Getting your head together

Your children

 

Thw WW comes last!

[Ladyjane14]

Why should I only give it to the counselor, why would she find it useful?

 

I think it'd give the counselor a good idea of what's on your mind. It's already a pretty well-formed summation of where you're at emotionally and what issues are uppermost in your thoughts.

 

Conversely, I doubt your wife is ready to hear it. It won't hurt a thing for you to share your letter with her, but... it's not likely to change much either.

 

If she's not ready, more than likely all you'll get from her is more softsoap. And Lord knows, she's greased you enough already we could probably pull ya through a keyhole all in one piece!

 

If you strip off the whitewash, she basically told you that it was all your fault she cheated, and that the reason she did it was pretty much because you were sexually inadequate. Not only did she have you believing it, she had you feeling "closer than ever" with her.

 

At the very least... you gotta respect her ability to SPIN. :p:p

[Gunny376]

This letter writing campagin you've got going ~ is DOA, and want serve any good ~ I know ~ that's one of the things that I did. It actually agitates them, and they dig their heels in.

 

Marraige counseling more often than not is one party trying to get the counselor to validate that they're right and the other party is wrong. As soon as she sees that the counselor isn't going to validate her position ~ she won't be going ~ she'll gone from there.

 

The only chance of you've got is to dig your heels in, set your bounderies and make your demands. Outlining what it is she's got to do to earn her way back into the marriage, while keeping in mind of your workling on your (not hers) preceived weaknesses, short-comings, and issues.

 

In short that is to say, its no longer a question of whether she'll take you back ~ its a question of if you will take her back.

 

This BS of if a man cheats on his wife ~ its his fault, and if a woman cheats on her husband ~ its still his fault ~ is pure un-adulterated bull hockey!

 

I'd toss her out by her ear ~ and when it came to the divorce ~ I wouldn't be pretty, and I wouldn't play nice. I'd shoot for the moon and demand everything and fight for it.

 

There are just some things in life you just don't do!

 

You don't spit nor p*ss into the wind!

You don't attempt reason with bullies (You beat that azz!)

You don't negotiate with terrorist (You kill them!)

 

And, you don't put up with nor tolerate some WS trash! You kick them to curb if they're un-willing to get their act together! :mad:

[Ladyjane14]

Marraige counseling more often than not is one party trying to get the counselor to validate that they're right and the other party is wrong. As soon as she sees that the counselor isn't going to validate her position ~ she won't be going ~ she'll gone from there.

 

Unfortunately Gunny, the MC already HAS validated the WW's position...

Here's a quote from El-Producto's first post:

She went to a counsellor yesterday, who she said affirmed her choice to have a trial separation. We are both going to see this counsellor on WED. and are going to go from there. She seems so set on ending this, but I feel lucky that she is wanting to try counselling first.

 

The only chance of you've got is to dig your heels in, set your bounderies and make your demands. Outlining what it is she's got to do to earn her way back into the marriage, while keeping in mind of your workling on your (not hers) preceived weaknesses, short-comings, and issues.

 

In short that is to say, its no longer a question of whether she'll take you back ~ its a question of if you will take her back.

 

Exactly!

And Step #1 in "EARNING" would be counseling with a pro-marriage therapist, if it was me. If somebody had already hacked off on my spouse "separating" from me... I don't think I'd EVER trust 'em enough to feel like they were on my side as well.

[El-Producto]

Well, after the first night of her staying away, she has called me 3 times for little things. She asked me to meet her for coffee and bring her some things that she left at the house. I agreed, and when we met she gave me 2 hugs, and smiled at me and looked me in the eyes the whole time she was talking to me, something which she hasn't done in a LONG time. She kept thanking me for bringing her stuff. I tried to act cool and collected, I let her initiate all of the talk/contact.

 

Maybe I'm being too excitable, but I can't help think that this detaching with love thing is actually working.

 

Weird... at least I'm starting to get in a better place with regards to the affair, etc. Starting to eat, and sleep a little better, although I still wake up in the middle of the night and have a hard time going back to sleep. This week off with the kids has been great too, and my friends are being very supportive.

 

Oh and thanks to your advice, I didn't read the letter. It certainly made me feel better, but it was definately DOA.

[Gunny376]

.........but I can't help think that this detaching with love thing is actually working.

 

 

You really think so?

[wife_left_me]

I think what you need to ask yourself is "If she came back to me would I even want her back?" In my case I was desperate to get my wife back and BLINDLY pursued her even with all the cards on the table. I think we are programed to want something that we cannot have but once it is in our grasp we realize why the hell we wanted it in the first place.

 

People who have been deprived of love seem to want it even more. I was reading in a book about an experiment with mice. The first group was given food pellets every time they pressed on a button. When food stopped coming out when they pressed the button in most cases they gave up on the second try. Another group was give food every tenth time the button was hit then every fifteenth Ect..... . When all food stopped coming out they became frantic and stated hitting the button even fasted and more often. They did not give up until they were removed from the cage. I'm not comparing you to a mouse but don't take her scraps and beg for more. Move on and live life like YOU want.

[El-Producto]

Well, now I'm really starting to get pissed off. WW was supposed to be out of the house for the last 3 nights as per our agreement. She has called 4 or 5 times each day. Yesterday she showed up after school to take the kids for a bike ride (unannounced). And this morning shows up at 7:30am and spends half of the day here cleaning her office, etc. once again unannounced. She then asks if she can sleep in the guest room tonight, to be there tomorrow so she can take them to her father's birthday.

 

She is the one who wanted the separation, and she isn't abiding by the agreement. I really had to bite my tongue from saying something, but I promised to leave the relationship talk to the counseling session.

 

Which brings me to another point. I really don't think that the counselor is acting in the best interest of us as a couple. She doesn't give me any hope that this marriage is worth working for, even though I and everyone else says there is. The only two people who seem to think that the marriage is beyond repair are my wife and the counselor. I think I'm going to respectfuly withdraw myself from further sessions with this counselor, and continue going to my own counselor.

 

Next on my list, I'm considering telling my wife that I am refusing to leave the house, as I want to work on the marriage, and I shouldn't have to leave the house, and the kids. If she thinks its over, she can stay away. I don't think she is gonna like it, but she is the one who had the affair, and I think she knows she is wrong and is feeling guilty.

 

I just don't understand why she won't give us a chance. She is so adamant that she hasn't had intimate feelings toward me in 4 years, and that she will never have them again. Even though I know this is WAW speak, it still hurts and scares me.

 

It really frustrates me that everyone, her friends and family, my friends and family all think she is crazy for wanting out, but she just doesn't see what this will do to me and the kids.

 

NUTS!

[Gunny376]

If it was me ~ since she's not getting with the program ~ I'd move back into the house and refuse to the budge. And, then I would not only come up with my own game plan ~ I'd come with a new game with my rules for me, myself and I to play by. And, its wouldn't look anything like hers.

 

I'm not advocating being ugly, mean, hateful or spiteful, and I sure as Hell wouldn't be walking around on eggshells either. But, I let it be done, that this was my house ~ I'm not going anywhere. That the only one that wanting out is her ~ and if she wants out there's the door, but she's got another thing coming if she thinks she's taking and getting the children by virtue of default just because she was born a woman.

 

I'm currently reading Dr. Phillip McGraws, "Relationship Rescue" now in paperback and currently availiable at WalMart for less than six bucks. Get this book, it'll open your eyes to a lot of things about yourself that you didn't have a clue about. The first half of the book is about you and what you can do to work on yourself. Get this book!

 

Mind you I've been divorced for seventeen years ~ and I'm reading this book and going WOW! And, to be honest with you ~ (and the reason I like him and the book so much) is that what he writes flies in the face of what you read and hear about in so many "marriage mannuals. Its a lot of down to Earth common horse sense.

 

One of the things that I just read tonight was the concept of "Do you want to be happy ~ or do you want to be right?" And, that is so true. So oftentimes in marriage we become so fixated on being right and winning the battle ~ that we don't understand that it leaves a residue and we end up losing the war.

 

And, you've got to recoginise from your first post ~ that you've been neglectful in your marriage. And, that's easy to do when children come along, the job, etc. He (Dr. Phil) gets into all of that and about how we mdduy the waters.

 

The truth of the matter is that most of us start out in marriage on a hope and a prayer ~ without the first clue as to how to get this thing off the ground and into the air ~ let alone how to keep it in the air. I mean on paper ~ it looks good ~ but in actually trying to make the beast fly? That's another story altogether.

 

In your case with the current marriage counselor ~ you've got one the wife selected to validate her side of the discussion. Can her. You've got to shop around until you find the right one.

 

I'm not a "save the marraige at any and all cost" kind of guy, but in so long as there's not any physical abuse, or severe mental and emotional abuse ~ there's a chance in Hell.

 

People can adapt, learn, grow, improvise, and overcome. We do it everyday in many aspects of our lives. I've got a newflash for you, monogomy and marraige aren't natural states for human beings. You have to learn how to be married. And, when I say that, I say it in the sense of one not being more dominant over the other one, or with having to give being who you are to be with someone.

 

The wife like a lot of women is working from the position of "she's not feeling it for you anymore. But, what she needs to learn is that if she's working off raw emotion then she's only destined to end up right back where she's at with the next guy. There are lessons to learn here, and some of them are hard lessons. And, if you don't learn from them ~ you're destined to repeat them.

 

If you're married its not a question of "If" you're going to hit some rough spots and low spots ~ its a question of "when" Just like living in Flordia, its not a question of "if" a hurricane is going to hit, its a question of "when" or living in California? Its not a question of "if" an earthquake is going to happen? Its a question of "when"

 

People these days are too prone to "instant gradification" and wheather they like something or not. Since retiring from the Corps ~ I worked jobs that I've hated until I found the one that I've got. But, what's "like" to do with a damn thing?

 

You suck it up and make do and deal with it, until you can make it better for yourself.

[Gunny376]

BTW, you're not exactally chopped liver you know. There's not a shortage of women. There are plenty of women out there that would like to have what you've got to offer. What one abuse, another can certainly use.

 

So get rid of this notion that the WW has the only supply and you've got the demand! Whatever she's got you can find just as good as if not better, whatever she's got to offer, you can find just as much of, if not more! That's a fact Jack!

 

A Bud of mine told me his wife threatened to cut him off. I told him: Go home and tell her. "You can't cut me off! You can only cut me off from what you've got to offer me! But, you can't cut me off!" Last time I spoke with him ~ they came to an understanding!

[Ladyjane14]

Next on my list, I'm considering telling my wife that I am refusing to leave the house, as I want to work on the marriage, and I shouldn't have to leave the house, and the kids.

 

I've been in agreement with that particular stance since Page One. There's just no way I'd give up the 'home-field' advantage, especially not when I knew I was innocent of any wrong-doing.

 

If a woman is bent on divorce.. she's going to do just that. She might try to ease you into the transition with proffered bits of hope, but she's STILL going to divorce your ass anyway if that's what she'd truly got in mind.

 

I can't see that you've got anything to lose by laying your ears back and holding on to your home and daily visitation with your kids. As long as you can keep your cool and NOT be pushed into a "domestic violence" type situation, you'll do okay. Just make sure you don't let her goad you, man.

 

Type in the words, "what are plan a and plan b, marriagebuilders" and keep your dealings with her in the style of "Plan A". If you're putting in a concerted effort to 'get along' then it's going to remind you to keep your temper in check.

 

Meanwhile back at the ranch... it's my understanding that very little can be accomplished in marriage counseling when an affair is ongoing. So by all means, stay in IC. But if you want to refuse counseling with the therapist who hacked off initially on the separation, and hold out for "marriage-based" counseling... I think you're on solid ground there too.

[Gunny376]

I was thinking this may be of help to you. They're not an absolute ~ you can pick and choose.

 

Orginally posted by Lady Jane in another thread.

 

You asked for the 180's list, so I'll print it for you here. This is from Michelle Weiner Davis' book Divorcebusting:

 

Quote:

 

 

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or

implore!

2. No frequent phone calls

3. Do not point out good points in marriage

4. Do not follow him around the house

5. Do not encourage talk about the future

6. Do not ask for help from family members

7. Do not ask for reassurances

8. Do not buy gifts

9. Do not schedule dates together

10. Do not spy on spouse

11. Do not say "I Love You"

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get

busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends,

etc.

15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start

the conversation) be scarce or short on words

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his

whereabouts, ASK NOTHING

17. You need to make your partner think that you have

had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you

are going to move on with your life, with or without

your spouse

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull

back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more

important, realize what he will be missing

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show

your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him

someone he would want to be around.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on

hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which

may be a while)

21. Never lose your cool

22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic

23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes

their feelings stronger)

24. Be patient

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really

saying to you

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you

want to speak out

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh &

focus on all the other parts of your life that are not

in turmoil)

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly

29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest

CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any

words you can say or write

30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you

are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with

your spouse

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than

50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in

absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad

you feel

34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes

I wouldn't implement this until AFTER she refuses compliance. Instead, I'd be fairly cooperative with her right up until Legal Separation. After that, I'd do 180's and let her stew a little. She'll be off balance because she's no longer in charge, and she'll be wondering if you're moving on without her.

 

180's are best done while you're still in contact. The idea is to be ATTRACTIVE, but not solitious. You're pleasant, you're charming, but you're also doing what you need to do in order to protect your family. Right now, you don't have to worry about going to NC (no contact). You're nowhere near needing that yet.

[El-Producto]

Well, I should have listened to everyone. I'm done.

 

I installed a keylogger on her computer, and got her new email account. She is continuing to email back and forth lots of stuff with the OM. She promised no contact, and is also bashing me in the emails, something which she said she wouldn't do.

 

Now I'm pissed. She can get her slutty ass out of MY house. I'm glad I'm the one with the steady job, and house and both cars in my name. She can go to hell.

 

Oh MY GOD, I'm hurting so badly right now. I can't wait to confront her.

[Ladyjane14]

Calm, cool, and collected, Sir. Don't get into a domestic situation with her. You'll end up with a restraining order on you and put out of your home 'til the court date if you're not careful.

 

Better to NOT tip your hand at all if you ask me. Instead of her maneuvering you out of the house... you maneuver her.

She doesn't have to know you've got better access to intelligence than what she thinks.

[El-Producto]

I've decided that I'm going to leave a copy of the emails in an envelope on the kitchen table, and I am leaving. I can't be here when she gets home tonight. I'm also not going to confront her over the phone, as she is with the kids at her parents house for supper.

 

I'm going to let her worry about it for a while.

[Ladyjane14]

I've decided that I'm going to leave a copy of the emails in an envelope on the kitchen table, and I am leaving. I can't be here when she gets home tonight. I'm also not going to confront her over the phone, as she is with the kids at her parents house for supper.

 

Seriously... I think it's a bad move to tip your hand. You'll not get one more piece of solid information from her. She'll just take the affair underground. Better to see an attorney and be in a position of power than to satisfy your need to vent.