Guys: 'i knew you would get mad' excuse.

[Erik]

Paradoxially, the one that couldn't handle the truth, was the one that talked incessantly about honesty and openness in the relationship. Or maybe that is not a paradox after all.

[Woggle]

Woggle I got a sneaking feeling that if you treated your wife like that she would kick your ass. :lmao:

 

I double dare you to tell her that this evening and see how she responds.

 

Lots of posturing with you Woggle....... lots of it.

 

It is not posturing. I don't try to control her either and she can be totally honest with me. Neither one of us are the type that like to be controlled and as long as we don't cheat and we treat each other right we do what we want. One of the things she likes about me is that I lay my cards right on the table and she has a choice of whether I am what she wants or not.

[Erik]

Not this one....... I have a roll of duct tape, tarp, and shovel for any man that would dare to treat me that way. :lmao:

 

Maybe women with really bad self esteem like it. Of course a man that treats a woman like that would be looking for that type of woman.

 

Ah I will go out on a limb and I will declare that sort of treatment as abusive.

Women do not like to be abused...... interesting hint about your character if you truly do believe women WANT to be treated that way.

 

It's not about self esteem, and I'd never call my wife b*tch, or order her around, that was just for the narrative entertainment value.

 

But the basics are correct, and it is not abuse, on the contrary. NOT treating your women like, uh, women is emotional neglect. And yes, women generally think that respect from their husbands is alike to the way they would treat a friend they respected. But your husband is not your friend, that is a very big misunderstanding and causes no end of grief. My SO's often would say that I didn't respect them, but it would be an intellectual observation, not an emotional.

[bridget_jones]

I actually agree here. Well I've never had a bf say shut up or b**ch to me but I admit there are times when I need to be put in my place when I am being unreasonable (which is not very often.)

 

 

 

Rudolf Steiner said that free men don't lie. What he meant was that there is no reason to lie unless there is an external impulse do so. If women really could handle the truth, men would not feel need to lie. In other words, it take two to lie: one to ask for the lie and one to serve it.

 

It is worth noting, that Steiner did not believe that any man was free at all times. Sometimes, there are external factors that limits our freedom to speak truth, and that lying was not bad per se, just a sign that you lived in a society where you did not control all externalities.

 

So there is a very easy way to be honest with your wife, pretend you are a free man, that your wife matters not one whit to you: say it like it is, and if that does not please her, consider yourself perfectly entitled to say "Shut the **** up b*tch", and tell her to remover herself from your presence. It is easy, because for some unfathomable reason, that kind of behaviour pleases women. You don't like to hear it girls, but it's the truth.

[a4a]

It's not about self esteem, and I'd never call my wife b*tch, or order her around, that was just for the narrative entertainment value.

 

But the basics are correct, and it is not abuse, on the contrary. NOT treating your women like, uh, women is emotional neglect. And yes, women generally think that respect from their husbands is alike to the way they would treat a friend they respected. But your husband is not your friend, that is a very big misunderstanding and causes no end of grief. My SO's often would say that I didn't respect them, but it would be an intellectual observation, not an emotional.

 

Maybe I am odd or we are odd. But my H is my friend. I have never told my H to shut up..... nor would I tell a friend to shut up. Nor would I put a friend in his or her place. Maybe so many marriages fail because people to not give enough respect to a spouse. They are more respectful to a friend.

 

As for laying it on the line. Nothing wrong with that. Hell I did that myself last night but not in a "power match"....... there is no reason to hide things to avoid conflict. But there is no reason to deliver it with a "take it or leave it" attitude either.

 

BJ...... you reminded my of the typical hysterical woman in a horror movie that needs to be slapped to get her to shut up...... then she runs and trips of course....... :lmao: Nothing to do with you personally..... just a visual that popped into my head.

 

Interesting discussion.......

[Erik]

I realise why people would say it was abuse, because when you treat a woman right, she puts herself more or less at your mercy, which opens up endless possibilities of abuse. But I never abused women. I had very happy marriages with the two SO's that could handle truth; a fight now and then, but far and away better that what I saw around me.

 

And one of my SO's cheated on me several times, I always forgave her without any fuss what so ever, I never held it against her, because I considered her my responsibility - I had only myself to blame. (And guys, I don't care what YOU think about that particular detail, so spare me the cute stuff)

[Erik]

a4a, I know a couple like you and your H. and I know what you talk about and sometimes it works beautifully.

 

I still say that for most people, their marriages would gain enormously if the man took responsibility for the marriage instead of considering it a partnership.

[Erik]

This is not cultural. All this would probably sound crazier to a Dane than to an American. But it works.

[Woggle]

a4a, I know a couple like you and your H. and I know what you talk about and sometimes it works beautifully.

 

I still say that for most people, their marriages would gain enormously if the man took responsibility for the marriage instead of considering it a partnership.

 

That may work for you but I don't want to marry a woman I have to look at as a child. She has to be an equal partner or it won't work.

[a4a]

a4a, I know a couple like you and your H. and I know what you talk about and sometimes it works beautifully.

 

I still say that for most people, their marriages would gain enormously if the man took responsibility for the marriage instead of considering it a partnership.

 

Individuals need different things..... maybe it is because I am older have more miles on me.

 

Maybe some people want a parental figure replaced by a spouse..... more power to them.

[Erik]

It has nothing to do with treating anyone as children; my last SO was a very mature, intelligent and independent woman, she held a high powered job. She was happy that I gave her more freedom than she had in her two previous relationships, where she was the boss, because I never checked on her during her business trips. (F.x.)

 

As I said, it didn't work with one of my SO's. We were together for seven years she was a wonderful woman and I loved her, but the relationship-stuff never worked well, we fought all the time, she was controlling me and I was lying to her.

[Erik]

I can't see why this is so hard to understand. If I take responsibility, my wife gains freedom. Yes, the principle is the same as that of parenting, but I never treated anyone like children. On the contrary, I demanded a lot of her.

[Trialbyfire]

To take away her responsibility in the relationship is a form of control erik. If she's your responsibility, she also has to listen to you and abide by your final decisions. In essence, you've given yourself veto power over your relationship and her life.

[Trialbyfire]

Trialbyfire, would you like to respond to Amerikajin now? Was it his fault in the way he approached the situation or was his exgirlfriend a bit irrational? And I caught the Erik joke. Whenever someone outreasons you, you take a potshot at them.

Okay, I've been very patient with you up until now. It's like having a chihuahua barking at you constantly. You want to give it a boot but you know that animal rights activists would be down your throat if you did.

 

Here's something upfront and personal. Get a grip, get a life and stop stalking me from thread to thread with your tiny e-penis in hand.

 

Now I know what it feels like to be a man and have a nattering, hysterical wife. Please go fixate on someone else...

[norajane]

Rudolf Steiner said that free men don't lie. What he meant was that there is no reason to lie unless there is an external impulse do so. If women really could handle the truth, men would not feel need to lie. In other words, it take two to lie: one to ask for the lie and one to serve it.

 

It's like I said earlier in this thread - lying and withholding the truth are an attempt to control and manipulate the other person's reactions.

 

What gives anyone the right to decide whether she can handle the truth or not?

 

Men lie to women to protect themselves from what they perceive as the consequences, whether it's an angry girlfriend or mother punishing them. Men try to control women's actions and reactions with what they tell or don't tell them. And they come up with all kinds of rationalizations as to why it's better for the little woman not to know the truth - only the liar knows the truth and uses it as he sees fit.

[Limerent]

And one of my SO's cheated on me several times, I always forgave her without any fuss what so ever, I never held it against her, because I considered her my responsibility - I had only myself to blame. (And guys, I don't care what YOU think about that particular detail, so spare me the cute stuff)

 

As crazy as this sounds, I agree with this whole theory. Responsibility in that if the girl strays, the man is ultimately responsible for not making sure that it doesnt happen in the first place, ie, if she were nurtured and desired enough, she wouldnt feel as if she needed to go outside the relationship to find whatever it is that she seeks.

[Trialbyfire]

As crazy as this sounds, I agree with this whole theory. Responsibility in that if the girl strays, the man is ultimately responsible for not making sure that it doesnt happen in the first place, ie, if she were nurtured and desired enough, she wouldnt feel as if she needed to go outside the relationship to find whatever it is that she seeks.

Is it truly the responsibility of the person being cheated on to keep the cheater in line or do they both have their fair share of responsibility in ensuring that it's a healthy relationship?

[Erik]

I have been giving this some think since this afternoon, and I must admit that I agree to a certain extend; there is a large degree of parent/child psychology in the relationship I described. I rejected the idea out of hand, because I had always seen my relationship with SO #2 (and the marriages of my friends) as the immature one. Bickering, playing games, arguing details, lying, controlling etc. As it is now almost two years since my last LTR ended, it is not entirely easy to re-analyse this, so I automatically rejected the notion.

 

But (please flame me) women are to some extend childish. Or rather, they have much in common with children. They are primarily emotionally driven. However, it is not my fault that this concept is ridden with negative connotations; nothing wrong with being emotionally motivated. The idea, though, that women are impulsive, is wrong, being emotionally motivated does not equal impulsive. In making decisions, women just tend to weigh their feeling more than men do, but they are every bit as calculating. In fact, I think men are the impulsive ones. On of their charms, the way I see it.

 

And also, there is an element of gaming, I admit. But isn't that an element in all relationships? I can assure you that my relationships with SO #1 & 3 were very successful, not only did my friends and family gush over the fact, but so did my SO's. They were very proud that everything went so smooth.

 

But what is not right, is that I controlled my SO's. The key to succes, IMO, in this kind of relationship is that you take your responsibility as a H serious, i.e. I went out of my way to ensure that I was not a dictator. As I said, my SO #3 was very much a power-woman, and she never felt she was not being heard, or that she did not have a say, even if the ultimate decisions about - and this is important - our relationship was mine. I did not interfere with my SO's personal life, their careers, their friends, family, religion or even affairs. In fact, the SO #2 was the relationship where I most felt I was a manipulator.

[Rhyla]

No, no men are entirely free, I am using the broad brush.

 

And yes, I am a single at present but I have a total of 20 years of cohabitation with three different women. Some of them could handle truth, I told them. Some of them could not, I didn't tell her.

 

And yes, you didn't ask, but women DO like to be treated like that.

 

That's laughable. If my bf treated me like that he'd be out the door and on his ass faster than he could know what was going on. Perhaps the reason your 3 cohabiting relationships didnt work out is cause you have a VERY distorted idea of what women want in a relationship. Hmm.

[Rhyla]

a4a, I know a couple like you and your H. and I know what you talk about and sometimes it works beautifully.

 

I still say that for most people, their marriages would gain enormously if the man took responsibility for the marriage instead of considering it a partnership.

 

That has got to be one of the most sexist things I've read on here in a while> Why the man? Why not the woman? Hate to tell you, it's TWO people, it is a partnership, and if you look at all the research that has been done on couples and marriage, those that treat it as a partnership fare best. Not to say YOUR experience hasnt been the opposite, but it does not ring true of the majority.

[Erik]

That's laughable. If my bf treated me like that he'd be out the door and on his ass faster than he could know what was going on. Perhaps the reason your 3 cohabiting relationships didnt work out is cause you have a VERY distorted idea of what women want in a relationship. Hmm.

 

Can't you read? They ALL worked. Two of them worked like a charm.

[Woggle]

What Erik says is true about many women. Many women are like children in the fact that they throw emotional tantrums, are impulsive and when they do something wrong it is their husband's fault. Many of them never take any responsibility for their actions and it is impossible to deal with them on a rational and logical basis. This is not true of all women but it is of many. I don't think that women are like this by nature but they know they can get away with it because men let them. We feed into their childlike impulses.

[amerikajin]

What Erik says is true about many women. Many women are like children in the fact that they throw emotional tantrums, are impulsive and when they do something wrong it is their husband's fault. Many of them never take any responsibility for their actions and it is impossible to deal with them on a rational and logical basis. This is not true of all women but it is of many. I don't think that women are like this by nature but they know they can get away with it because men let them. We feed into their childlike impulses.

 

Maybe a more diplomatic way to put it is that women behave based more on emotion; men - through a combination of genetics and social reinforcement - are engineered to be somewhat detached and objective. That is not to say that women can't be detached and objective; that is not to say that men can't be at times emotional or illogical; but it does typify, say, 60 percent of our thought processes. Is it something I can prove? Sorry, I don't have any research handy; I just know it from my own experiences, both in relationships in and in other facets of my life.

[Erik]

Problem is, you can't research that as there's no meaningful, operational definition of 'logical' and 'emotional', it's all psycho-babble.

 

And I WAS being more diplomatic about it.

[NearlyThere]

General question: When guys use the excuse 'I didn't tell you because I knew you would get mad/act irrational/blow things out of proportion' excuse, should women consider that valid?

 

 

 

can it be that guys really DO want to avoid a big blow-out argument with their gf, so they take this route...or are all men inevitably hiding something?

 

I would just like to say that I think a lot of women, not talking about the OP here specifically, bring this issue on themselves by forcing their partner to make a promise about something that the blokes dont really want to do, of course you could swap the genders around.

 

Here is an example and its just the first one that springs to mind, its coming on for 2am here so its the only one I could come up with quickly.

 

You start seeing a guy.

 

He really likes playing video games a lot, up until he met you it has been quite a big focus in his life, you think he spends to much time doing it and you dont see the point of it either as your not into it.

 

You say to him that until he promises that he wont play with them anymore you won't continue to see him. He only really half heartedly promises because he really likes playing video games but he really likes you as well so he goes ahead with it reluctantly.

 

You go away for the week-end, he stays at home, he gets bored, thinks what can I do with my time, he remembers his video games, oh, but he's not supposed to use that, mmmm, but your not there, so he goes ahead anyway and hopes for the best.

 

You come home you wonder if he has been playing said video games, there is the dilema, he is going to lie his A$$ off until proven otherwise and when you find out for sure, he is going to say, "I knew you would get mad".

 

This is all JIMO, obviously.