it's all so sad

[quietrone]

After 20+ yrs of marriage and 3 kids, my mid-40's W has laid all the separation excuses on me; she needs space, needs to find herself, we've grown apart, doesn't love me anymore, blah, blah, blah. So after going through all the questions, arguing, asking for answers, even pleading (yes, i know!) and getting nowhere, I start to read books, sites, anything I can get my hands on and am surprised how common this is and stunning, how the patterns among the situations are almost identical.

 

I know that infidelity is the #1 thing to look at but I, like so many others, BELIEVE her when she says no. Not only because after 22 yrs, I hope I've earned the truth but more importantly, that I need to trust her FOR ME. If I don't trust, then I've lost a piece of me. Whatever the truth is, I will be able to look myself in the mirror and won't be lowered to her level. Make sense? I'm no fool though! I know that an affair is possibly (probably?) the root of what's going on here and really at this point, I could care less. In fact, I would welcome that revelation because it would add everything up and make sense of this mess. Falling out of love? Sorry, I don't buy it.

 

So I get back to the title of this thread, "it's all so sad". I have to let her go to try and find whatever it is she's looking for. In the meantime I'll wait for the girl I used to know to come back because frankly, I don't want to be married to the selfish person she's become. In the meantime though, I'm OK and I'm certain that there's someone out there that will appreciate all that I am, enjoy me, and allow me time to work on my faults.

 

When did marriages become so disposable? I guess along with everything else!? It's interesting that the divorce rate in cultures where marriages are arranged is lower. Maybe it's because they're not so FREE to "change the channel" but they must put some effort into getting through the commercials? Dumb analogy, I know.

[Mustang Sally]

I'm sorry you're going through a tough time. Me too, if you want to read about it.

 

Maybe your wife is NOT having an affair. I didn't. But I sure thought about it. In the end, when faced with an opportunity, I didn't go through with it. Even if she hasn't, I think the fact is, as women (and maybe men too? I can't speak from personal experience for men...) get into a "grass is greener" mentality.

 

I do think I have love for my H (he is my best friend) but I am not in love with my H (no longer find him attractive or sexually satisfying). Not totally his fault, but he has certainly played a role in it, by taking things for granted and being ambivalent. Don't know if that would apply in your situation, just trying to give food for thought.

 

I think you make an interesting point about arranged marriages. As I have stated/implied in other threads, I think for those of us who "marry for love," at some point, marriage becomes largely an economic arrangement. For women who work and have some financial independence, there is less incentive to stay married when the romance wears off. It's figuring out how to minimize that and keep both parties interested in maintaining the romance and excitement that has me stumped.

 

It is sad. Let me know if you get it figured out!

[nonameNY]

yeah dude sorry you got to live it...but you will live through it...

I am on the same side of the fence as your Wife I am afraid.

My M live sucks I hated it for years...my W and I fought constantly though...

she called me names and IMO overreacted to minor things and it just build up this wall or something that made me not love her. I have a thread here u can read it.

That is what did it for me fighting yelling and screaming and I did it back too...not as good as her cause I couldn't bring myself to say what she did.

so it is possible she is not cheating...the needs space to find herself is so overused who knows if that is a clue...

 

The rest of what she is saying...you can fall out of love with someone...it sucks...but it is true...

 

So do what you said wait for her to come around (but not forever) ..or move on and find that girl out there that does it for you again

[Gunny376]

I'm sorry you're going through this~! I wouldn't wish it upon my worse enemy.

 

My Dad's best friend? Married 40 years, three sons, went through it! She couldn’t handle getting older, because she was a "Babe" back in the day!"

 

My Dad knew his days were numbered. He was very empathic that I shouldn't never marry again. He was married to my Mom twice for a total of ten years, to my step-mom for 32. He passed four years ago at age 70.

 

I've not heard from my so called step-mom and brothers since! Works for me! I've always known their "feelings" was BS!

 

She even blamed me for his death ~ "No" he died at 70 because he sucked on cigarettes for 55 years. To be honest about it? I think he was just tired of living life with her? He as much as told me so on more than one occasion!

[LakesideDream]

Sad is one word for it. After facing the same thing at the end of a 25 year marriage, I know of what I say.

 

Beware though, it was two weeks after I agreed to "give her space" and let her "find out if she can live on her own" that I found out about my ex's long term love affair. Those details often come out slowly.

 

Don't be shocked if you find out the same thing.

 

Welcome to the 21st Century. The age of "Walk away Spouses".

[alphamale]

When did marriages become so disposable?

somewhere around the mid-70's to late-70's

 

It's interesting that the divorce rate in cultures where marriages are arranged is lower. Maybe it's because they're not so FREE to "change the channel" but they must put some effort into getting through the commercials? Dumb analogy, I know.

your "analogy" is actually much more accurate than you think!

[OldEurope]

somewhere around the mid-70's to late-70's

 

 

your "analogy" is actually much more accurate than you think!

 

 

 

Yes...In those wonderful cultures where marriages are arranged and the wife is doused in flames by the step-mother when her son, the husband, dies. Those great, enlightened cultures...!

 

In my ever humble opinion, the problem with divorce today is not the fact of divorce--but that divorce is the symptom of a deeper societal problem: that people marry for the wrong reasons, over and over and over again.

 

I do not and never will understand why people marry so young. It is the same bloody script played out all the time. "I was 21 he was 25 and I was so much in love, and our first kiss in the back of his pick-up truck I knew it was forever, so what if I didn't finish my college degree..." Then the next thing you know, at age 40 and four kids later, she has to go "find herself" because she never had a self because she denied the development of her self ; or, in the husband's case--he realized he wanted to conquer more territory on this earth and know more women before settling down and he spirals off into other relationships, other vistas, horizons...And so on and so forth.

 

Then there are the "well established" younger couples who, ever striving upward, broaden their personalities and interests and do find that they have emerged as someone else having hit their personal/professional stride. Then they see their partner not as someone who is growing as well, or someone who has gotten "stuck" and they lose their attractiveness.

 

I have for sometime said that no woman should marry before she is 30 and no man before he is 45. And yes, I am all for the age difference as a nod to Mother N who, like it or not, made men sexually active longer than women, and made beauty the cherry on the top of the Order of Things. Beside all that, and more importantly, people need to Know Themselves--Remember your Socrates/Plato from university, kids? Know Thyself ...Find out what you are about, what you are not about, what your values are, what you accept on this planet, and what you reject. You have to be so sure of yourself that life's storms are mere breezes passing through and no one and no-thing will take away from this sense of self. No, we do not achieve "perfect" self-knowledge, and everyone is going to get pushed around here and there by self-doubt and problems, but a person can do much, much better than what we see going on in society today...People coming, going, getting up, moving out, walking out, begging back blah blah blah. If such people just used Single Life and Solitude to the ultimate advantage that it brings I very much believe this kind of erratic-ness would disappear.

 

The other thing is....Marry someone on your "level" or better. Make sure he or she reflects your values. And also find someone who has perhaps suffered a tragedy, hardship in their lives, or, on the flip side, an excellent achievement. These people tend to be more mature, more self-reflective. Less acting on impulse, mood.

 

And, fellas, no "hormone" excuses anymore please! For example, don't tell me that Miss Tinkerbell who was an airhead but so darn cute, "blinded" you into marriage...No...If you are a thinking man--as all LS guys are --you can do "better". Brains, beauty and a sense of strong values do exist. But you only find that when you are hunting around an elevated arena of people, places. It all can work. Just more discrimination (in the right sense of the word, folks), more time, more carefulness... I truly believe so many of these disasters could be avoided

 

Happy Spring,

OE

[CastingPearls]

Whenever I hear of really longterm marriages going down the toilet, I can only think what a shame that nothing could be salvaged. This other person has been a part of your life for so long that you can hardly remember anything else. Not only is your life about to change completely, but all the good memories are now tainted with sadness too. I don't care what anyone says, you don't stay with someone that long if you are miserable.They may have been bitchy, moody, selfish or insensitive, but they knew your ways and you knew theirs. It's like you were molded to fit together in a comfortable way. I don't know why it falls apart. I think people feel contentment isn't enough of a goal to work toward, they want flash and sparkle and heat. I agree though, it's really sad.

[Gunny376]

Outstanding post OE

 

For me? The best bet is to just stay single and have multiple LTR, they are what they are, they last forever how long they last.

 

At least I won't have to keep going down and buying all the same stuff over and over again at Wallyworld?

 

Now that I've said that, I'll go out this morning and be smitten by the love of my life?!

[quietrone]

Thanks everyone for all the varied responses. As you all know, they do help.

 

Someone asked if I was ambivalent? Far from it. My W gets plenty of attention and help. Too much, I'm sure. If asked in confidence, my W would probably say that she wishes I'd have an affair so I'd get away from her some.

 

I'm no saint though! I have things that need working on and I am doing that. I just have trouble with the feeling that I've been blindsided by this and suddenly it's broke and maybe beyond repair. As soon as things get tough or uninteresting, she check sout? Really?

 

As you can probably tell by the yrs married and the ages, we were married young. That is certainly a factor, for her.

[alphamale]

For me? The best bet is to just stay single and have multiple LTR, they are what they are,

tell me about it brother!

[AHIWON]

LTR is the same thing to me as a marriage with out the expensive party and even more expensive split.

[Gunny376]

My idea of a LTR is with a woman who's got her own place, I've got mine, she's got a nickle, I've got a dime, we get together now and again and share a bottle of wine.

[alphamale]

My idea of a LTR is with a woman who's got her own place, I've got mine, she's got a nickle, I've got a dime, we get together now and again and share a bottle of wine.

excellent...don't forget about the sex too

[AHIWON]

My idea of a LTR is with a woman who's got her own place, I've got mine, she's got a nickle, I've got a dime, we get together now and again and share a bottle of wine.

 

Hahaha! Make it into a song then the LS anthem!

 

You buy the steaks

I'll buy the beer

come over later

I'll prove I'm not queer

[Mustang Sally]

I'll prove I'm not queer

 

Not that there's anything wrong with that....

[Chapter2]

You are truly gifted OE...fantastic post!!

 

Yes...In those wonderful cultures where marriages are arranged and the wife is doused in flames by the step-mother when her son, the husband, dies. Those great, enlightened cultures...!

 

In my ever humble opinion, the problem with divorce today is not the fact of divorce--but that divorce is the symptom of a deeper societal problem: that people marry for the wrong reasons, over and over and over again.

 

I do not and never will understand why people marry so young. It is the same bloody script played out all the time. "I was 21 he was 25 and I was so much in love, and our first kiss in the back of his pick-up truck I knew it was forever, so what if I didn't finish my college degree..." Then the next thing you know, at age 40 and four kids later, she has to go "find herself" because she never had a self because she denied the development of her self ; or, in the husband's case--he realized he wanted to conquer more territory on this earth and know more women before settling down and he spirals off into other relationships, other vistas, horizons...And so on and so forth.

 

Then there are the "well established" younger couples who, ever striving upward, broaden their personalities and interests and do find that they have emerged as someone else having hit their personal/professional stride. Then they see their partner not as someone who is growing as well, or someone who has gotten "stuck" and they lose their attractiveness.

 

I have for sometime said that no woman should marry before she is 30 and no man before he is 45. And yes, I am all for the age difference as a nod to Mother N who, like it or not, made men sexually active longer than women, and made beauty the cherry on the top of the Order of Things. Beside all that, and more importantly, people need to Know Themselves--Remember your Socrates/Plato from university, kids? Know Thyself ...Find out what you are about, what you are not about, what your values are, what you accept on this planet, and what you reject. You have to be so sure of yourself that life's storms are mere breezes passing through and no one and no-thing will take away from this sense of self. No, we do not achieve "perfect" self-knowledge, and everyone is going to get pushed around here and there by self-doubt and problems, but a person can do much, much better than what we see going on in society today...People coming, going, getting up, moving out, walking out, begging back blah blah blah. If such people just used Single Life and Solitude to the ultimate advantage that it brings I very much believe this kind of erratic-ness would disappear.

 

The other thing is....Marry someone on your "level" or better. Make sure he or she reflects your values. And also find someone who has perhaps suffered a tragedy, hardship in their lives, or, on the flip side, an excellent achievement. These people tend to be more mature, more self-reflective. Less acting on impulse, mood.

 

And, fellas, no "hormone" excuses anymore please! For example, don't tell me that Miss Tinkerbell who was an airhead but so darn cute, "blinded" you into marriage...No...If you are a thinking man--as all LS guys are --you can do "better". Brains, beauty and a sense of strong values do exist. But you only find that when you are hunting around an elevated arena of people, places. It all can work. Just more discrimination (in the right sense of the word, folks), more time, more carefulness... I truly believe so many of these disasters could be avoided

 

Happy Spring,

OE

[quiet1one1]

Thought I'd post an update. My W has decided not to move out, yet. We are coexisting quite nicely at home, things are friendly and caring and we are both continuing with IC and MC. We've had several serious discussions where a lot has come out and I'm getting a really good view of how confused she really is is. Whether there was/is someone else or not, she is struggling big time and I appreciate that when faced with the end she chose to hang on and give us every chance.

 

My kids are mostly really confused because M appears happier but they obviously know better. It seems like all I can say to them is that I'm as confused as they are and we all need to do whatever we can to help *everyone* find happiness.

 

Me, I'm tip-toeing through each day wondering where it's all going and trying not to get too optimistic or impatient. I guess I feel like I'm "trying out for the team" again trying to win her back. My actions have run the gamut but I've since settled in on being supportive and caring (me!) with a few improvements. There's no point pretending, she knows me and she either likes me the way I am or she doesn't. I'm ok and that's what's really important. I do HATE the nagging feeling that something is happening behind my back or that her sudden reticence is because she's not ready in other ways (financially, legally, the other person, etc.) - that I'm being played in some way. I want to trust her but it's obvious I don't, at least not yet. If we can hang on, will I ever get beyond these feelings or the things she's said to me? I wonder and worry that I won't.

 

I often think about just ending it and freeing myself (and her) from this torture. Why don't I? Maybe I don't have the guts? Maybe I still care about her too much? Maybe I just can't give up on 22 years? Maybe because I think that's what she wants me to do? Does it really matter why?

[David H]

I often think about just ending it and freeing myself (and her) from this torture. Why don't I? Maybe I don't have the guts? Maybe I still care about her too much? Maybe I just can't give up on 22 years? Maybe because I think that's what she wants me to do? Does it really matter why?

 

Sounds like she is having a mid-life crisis

 

http://midlifecrisisforum.com/6/ubb.x?s=3106003104

http://www.pathpartners.com

http://fortysixty.invisionzone.com/index.php?act=idx

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=28&page=1

 

David

[quiet1one1]

Thanks David. Yes I suppose mlc is at the heart of our problems. It's tough to argue with millions of other couples that have experienced these exact issues. There was a quote from someone on one of the sites you had links to that did hit me. It went something like, "I did not approach it as a marriage issue - it wasn't". This makes sense, I guess. I just hate to blame mlc (not as much as my W hates it!) because I do believe I needed to take some responsibility for where our M is.

 

The best part of this mess is that I have seen where my faults are and I am doing what I can to fix them. I feel SO much happier with me than I have in awhile - I just wish that black cloud on the horizon would go away! Also, my W has said numerous times that we will come out of this stronger and happier, hopefully together but if not, then as individuals. I have my doubts now so I trust her on that one. As I said, I've decided to ride this out by taking care of me being as supportive and understanding as I can be to my W. If she decides to kick me to the curb I'll be proud and happy with myself that I did all I could.

[Woggle]

You are being played and she is planning her exit. I suggest you start talking to a lawyer and start preparing for divorce because this where it is headed. While you are focused on making your marriage work she is focused on finding the best way out. Accept that your marriage is over and move on.

[amaysngrace]

You are being played and she is planning her exit. I suggest you start talking to a lawyer and start preparing for divorce because this where it is headed. While you are focused on making your marriage work she is focused on finding the best way out. Accept that your marriage is over and move on.

 

For some reason I agree with this. Her moving back in makes it seem like she doesn't want to abandon the house.

 

And if you're tip-toeing around her than that kind of reaffirms it in my mind. Have you two spoken about what you both need to do in order to make this marriage work? Has she admitted any wrongdoing? Do you feel closer now or still as far apart from her as before?

 

You really need to think about what's going on. Because she very well may be planning the divorce without you even realizing it.

[quiet1one1]

[COLOR=black]woggle and amays,[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]Thanks for the reality check. Believe me I think about the possibilities every day but it helps to see it in black and white.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]As I said in a previous post, we are getting along quite well. Actually, she seems to be reaching out like she's never done before and I'm enjoying our time together more than I have in 5 years. The physical stuff will take awhile I know but right now I'm ok with that. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]Also, she never moved out. She asked for "space" and so I left for 3 months. I then decided enough was enough and went back for my own protection and well-being. She then thought about going but decided to stay, commit to work on things and see where it goes. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]Could she have seen a lawyer? Sure, probably. I have seen a lawyer myself and in my situation I have nothing to worry about, we'd share equally. If she doesn't want to abandon the house she better be ready for company because I'm NOT going anywhere.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]Again, I am trusting her but if she is preparing her exit then so be it. I've covered my bases and while I'd be hurt and shocked, I'll be fine.[/COLOR]

[quiet1one1]

wow my prevous post is ugly - sorry!

[quiet1one1]

In case you don't remember, my W gave me the "I don't love you like that, we've grown apart" speech after 23 yrs of marriage. I had moved out to give her some space but moved back home after 8 weeks. She felt that time was not enough for her so she indicated she would be moving out.

 

We're a few weeks beyond that now and at this point we are still together at home and are diligently working on things with help from MC and ICs. Things between us are better than they have been in years - we enjoy each other's company and it's obvious both of us are "reaching out" towards the other to fill needs we both found they other had. We are making efforts to do things together that we stopped or never did because of the demands of life and family. More importantly, we are doing things independent of the other so this has given my W the feeling that she does have some independent identity and that I'm not always at home waiting on and attached to her (my BIG issue!). I've reconnected with some old friends and regardless of whether our M makes it or not, I thank her for for this, for making me see I need a life outside the home. She can't say she's "healed" yet but she admits she feels happier and more balanced. As more family and friends hear what's happening it seems like we get swarmed with the negative stories and failures so it gets hard to stay optimistic. Last night we talked about everything and she said it would be nice to be the "exception" - the couple that makes it through - and that at this point she's dedicated to see if we can.

 

A week ago she informed me that she was seeing a lawyer and got her own checking account and credit card - just so she had "information and options" so she would not make a dumb decision. At first I was distressed hearing this and obsessed she was making moves arbitrary to what I was seeing on the surface. She didn't hide what she was doing and we had some serious discussions about all of this and I'm comfortable she's not pulling anything. Besides, I've seen a lawyer, I have my own credit card, why shouldn't she? We are in a no-fault state, have almost equal incomes, no minor children to worry about, It would be an "easy" divorce and 50/50 split.

 

So, the only thing I have to lose here is time. I care about her very much and she's convinced through her actions that she cares about me. After 23 years, I'm willing to give her and us more time. Maybe I'll end-up the fool but in the end I'll know I did what I thought was best for me.