does your MM/MW still sleep with their partner?

[outofdarkness]

ood i appreciate your suggestion, i guess we cant all be marriage experts like yourself.

not even going to give the satisfaction of replying to this one and starting something...

[serial muse]

many do not want to "fix" it, they just want to ignore it and cope by treating themselves on the side.

 

i think the married couples who do not talk about their problems probably have no real wish to solve anything, they just lack the initiative to get out of an unhappy situation.

 

I think this is sad but often true.

 

But I will add that while the demise of the relationship is both partners' responsibility, I still think it's incumbent on the person who's getting ready to stray to speak up.

 

But you're right, inertia can be pretty powerful. Sigh...

[Babybird]

I'm not really sure what the typical age for a mid-life crisis is TBH. I have teased my MM about buying a convertible to go along with his younger GF. LOL

 

I think SBT had some great points. They don't necessarily want to leave the unhappy situation. Especially after 20 years when they have settled into nice jobs, with the $200 grand mortgage, cars, boats, motorcycles, etc. Obviously, these things will need to be divided up. Then theres the 401K, investments(if they have them), the list goes on. Along with the new woman comes a new lifestyle where money isn't as free flowing as it once was. The idea of that and living without the child/ren that they adore can be a lot to swallow. Then, as so many say, why not have your cake and eat it too?

 

Back to the sex thing: I don't know the intimate details of the conversation my MM had with his wife. I know the main points, which consisted of he wasn't happy, no longer felt like they were a couple, he wanted to improve their sex life, and he felt like they had grown apart and wanted to try and repair things.(This was all way before me.) He is pretty open with his emotions. He has told me he is insecure(about women and love) and until he met me he felt like he was a failure at his M, undesirable, worthless, had no sex appeal, and not worthy of a womans love. Ouch right? I think he loved his W to an amazing degree and she stopped reciprocating. That hurt him, and his self-esteem horribly. I think he finally gave up on trying to fix the M but didn't want to leave his son. I want to make him feel like he is the amazing, wonderful, man that he is because I know he makes me feel that way as a woman.

[herenow]

It truly amazes me that an OW can never see the possibility that the MM really does love his wife and doesn't realize how much until he is about to lose her. I know that it's easy to say that he stays for the kids, finances, social standing. blah, blah, blah. Rarely is that true, but do you really believe that a man who is selfish enough to risk all those things on an OW, would stay with a woman he doesn't love? Don't you think if he was really in love with the OW, he would do anything to be with her?

 

I can understand that it would be hard for the OW to admit that she was just something to fill a void and his wife is the one that he is willing to fight for. It takes the sting away to believe that the MM would rather be with the OW, and he only stays with his wife out of fear of losing things.

 

Truth is, half of marriages end in divorce and (unless a father is unfit) kids still see both parents. As far as money issues, if it's true love, why would that matter? Remember, there is a living, breathing wife behind that MM and she has choices too. After a d-day, MM isn't the only one making decisions. I asked my H to leave. If he loved the OW, I would rather he be with her, and let me go to find true love of my own. He begged to stay and we have worked on ourselves and our marriage. We love each other and that has never changed.

 

What I'm trying to say is that MM will do and say what ever it takes to get what they want. But for the one who's marriage has true love and meaning, the MM will stay.

[Can'tGiveUp]

It truly amazes me that an OW can never see the possibility that the MM really does love his wife and doesn't realize how much until he is about to lose her. I know that it's easy to say that he stays for the kids, finances, social standing. blah, blah, blah. Rarely is that true, but do you really believe that a man who is selfish enough to risk all those things on an OW, would stay with a woman he doesn't love? Don't you think if he was really in love with the OW, he would do anything to be with her?

 

As amazing, is the fact that many BW don't want to consider that there are more reasons than "love of W" for staying.

 

I can understand that it would be hard for the OW to admit that she was just something to fill a void and his wife is the one that he is willing to fight for. It takes the sting away to believe that the MM would rather be with the OW, and he only stays with his wife out of fear of losing things.

 

Just as difficult as wondering if he stayed because he didn't want to "be taken to the cleaners"

 

Truth is, half of marriages end in divorce and (unless a father is unfit) kids still see both parents. As far as money issues, if it's true love, why would that matter? Remember, there is a living, breathing wife behind that MM and she has choices too. After a d-day, MM isn't the only one making decisions. I asked my H to leave. If he loved the OW, I would rather he be with her, and let me go to find true love of my own. He begged to stay and we have worked on ourselves and our marriage. We love each other and that has never changed.

 

Truly a personal, situational comment. Never underestimate the power of the mighty $.

 

What I'm trying to say is that MM will do and say what ever it takes to get what they want. But for the one who's marriage has true love and meaning, the MM will stay.

 

And some will stay for reasons other than true love. Nothing is stronger than the love for your children. (as a "for instance")

 

Sorry - I am playing devil's advocate somewhat here. But there are always two sides to the story. Each and every situation is different. I would never say that my xMM didn't love his W. What I will say is that he went back to try and make it work for his children. And he knew that that was the hardest for me. I told him that it would truly hurt less if he just said "I love my wife and I need to be with her". He couldn't say those words. What he said was "I love my children and I have to try and keep the family together".

 

That was when they were separated - not when the A ended. And when the A was starting to affect his home life - it was about ripping his family apart - not about hurting her specifically.

 

I just think that there are different issues and that sometimes there are people who will stay in marriages that are not what they really want but that they believe they need to be there for reasons other than love for their spouse.

 

just my 2 cents

[outofdarkness]

It truly amazes me that an OW can never see the possibility that the MM really does love his wife and doesn't realize how much until he is about to lose her. I know that it's easy to say that he stays for the kids, finances, social standing. blah, blah, blah. Rarely is that true, but do you really believe that a man who is selfish enough to risk all those things on an OW, would stay with a woman he doesn't love? Don't you think if he was really in love with the OW, he would do anything to be with her?

 

I can understand that it would be hard for the OW to admit that she was just something to fill a void and his wife is the one that he is willing to fight for. It takes the sting away to believe that the MM would rather be with the OW, and he only stays with his wife out of fear of losing things.

 

Truth is, half of marriages end in divorce and (unless a father is unfit) kids still see both parents. As far as money issues, if it's true love, why would that matter? Remember, there is a living, breathing wife behind that MM and she has choices too. After a d-day, MM isn't the only one making decisions. I asked my H to leave. If he loved the OW, I would rather he be with her, and let me go to find true love of my own. He begged to stay and we have worked on ourselves and our marriage. We love each other and that has never changed.

 

What I'm trying to say is that MM will do and say what ever it takes to get what they want. But for the one who's marriage has true love and meaning, the MM will stay.

Well said...I would not have changed a thing about this wonderful post...

[herenow]

Thank you OOD.

 

Can't give up, don't you think that if a man loves a woman, that is the relationship that he would try to make work? I really don't believe that if a man truly loves the OW, he would put so much effort into his marriage for any reason.

 

Every adult and kid knows someone who has been divorced, it's nothing new or unusual. We know that kids will love both parents if they know that the divorce was not their fault and it they are shown love by both parents. I have seen ugly divorces where both parents love their kids and hate each other, but the kids do fine because the parents love them so much. How good of a father can he be if he is willing to put his marriage at risk because of an OW? A man that really wants to leave his wife and keep a good relationship with his kids, gets a divorce before he starts to mess around with OW.

 

As far as the mighty dollar, if you are saying that the MM loves his money more than he loves the OW, then that OW should take a good look at how she is valued. I can't imagine putting money before love and happiness. Why would anyone including the wife want to be with such a man?

[NearlyThere]

Not wanting to fan any flames here, just purely for the points of discussion from points you have raised.

 

It truly amazes me that an OW can never see the possibility that the MM really does love his wife and doesn't realize how much until he is about to lose her. I know that it's easy to say that he stays for the kids, finances, social standing. blah, blah, blah. Rarely is that true, but do you really believe that a man who is selfish enough to risk all those things on an OW, would stay with a woman he doesn't love? Don't you think if he was really in love with the OW, he would do anything to be with her?

 

I dont know why people would find it amazing that some OW would never consider this a possibility, you have to remember that OW are being constantly bombarded with words and actions that might not match the reality. Imagine being told every day, that someone loves you, they do not love their wife, she does not love him, they do not sleep together, blah blah, (I love saying blah blah), and even though your mind is telling you this could be absolute crap, you have someone else trying to convince you different so at some point your rational side must concede defeat. Not that my current sitch echoes that partic scenario but I have been in relationships where it has and not with a MM.

 

Now when D Day arrives I am more under the impression that the MM are shocked to discover that really their wives still did care about them and then they realise that they really did love their wives after all in return and suddenly do not want to lose them. I dont know if you remember reading a thread by someone called Hard2Think, I think it was him anyway, and sure enough on D-day i'm sure that this is what happened.

 

As to if they love someone enough they would do anything do be with them, well my belief is not "love is all you need" more "sometimes, love just isnt enough"!!! You might love someone but the reality means that you cannot be with that person.

 

People on LS (and I dont mean just you Herenow) discount kids and finances, but IMO the reality in the cold light of day for the man is quite different. Lets be honest even in todays society its nearly 100% for sure that the children are going to end up with the mom, in the house that at one time was shared with the WS. Now most of the time the WS is going to be out working for a living he now has to maintain all the associated expenses for 2 households thats not putting the $ or £ first its just reality, how can anyone afford that. Plus he he will prob not see his children every day, get too tuck them into bed, read them a bedtime story, see the first things a child might do, be there for them when they are sick etc. Will only see them at alternate weekends and thats only if the Spouse is agreeable, even with a set custody agreement like this, ie every other weekend, it takes a long time for the process to go thru courts if the BS is not willing to uphold it and in the meantime the WS is still not seeing his child. I mean look at Kim Basinger and Alec Baldwin for an extreme case in child custody arrangements. So that is why I believe that sometimes, yes the WS might be in love with his OW it is just not enough. Again not trying to say that this is my case, just an example.

 

 

I can understand that it would be hard for the OW to admit that she was just something to fill a void and his wife is the one that he is willing to fight for. It takes the sting away to believe that the MM would rather be with the OW, and he only stays with his wife out of fear of losing things.

 

It might be true with some that he stayed for fear of losing things but its also possible that OW were just a temporary filler for a void in the MM's life. To find out you were a void filler would be like have the proverbial rug pulled out from under you, everything you have been told and experienced for X number of months or years is not valid so it would be hard to admit this to yourself and others.

 

Truth is, half of marriages end in divorce and (unless a father is unfit) kids still see both parents. As far as money issues, if it's true love, why would that matter? Remember, there is a living, breathing wife behind that MM and she has choices too. After a d-day, MM isn't the only one making decisions. I asked my H to leave. If he loved the OW, I would rather he be with her, and let me go to find true love of my own. He begged to stay and we have worked on ourselves and our marriage. We love each other and that has never changed.

 

I admire you for this it must have taken a lot of courage to do that.

 

What I'm trying to say is that MM will do and say what ever it takes to get what they want. But for the one who's marriage has true love and meaning, the MM will stay.

 

I think we are all in agreement that basically a MM in an A will manipulate a situation to their advantage when it suit. Its a shame though that some MM have to have an A and a D day to find out that they do love their Wives after all and in the process hurt and deceive a 2nd person as well.

 

NT

 

ps: please excuse any grammar or spelling mistakes, its nearly 1.30am here.

[herenow]

I hear you NT and I understand what you are saying. I'm just talking the norm, but I know there are exceptions.

 

Very interesting about the MM not realizing that his wife still loves him. I'm sure that's true in many cases.

[NearlyThere]

I hear you NT and I understand what you are saying. I'm just talking the norm, but I know there are exceptions.

 

Very interesting about the MM not realizing that his wife still loves him. I'm sure that's true in many cases.

 

I agree yours is more than likely the normal situation.

 

Also thanks for listening to my POV.

[Can'tGiveUp]

Thank you OOD.

 

Can't give up, don't you think that if a man loves a woman, that is the relationship that he would try to make work? I really don't believe that if a man truly loves the OW, he would put so much effort into his marriage for any reason.

 

Every adult and kid knows someone who has been divorced, it's nothing new or unusual. We know that kids will love both parents if they know that the divorce was not their fault and it they are shown love by both parents. I have seen ugly divorces where both parents love their kids and hate each other, but the kids do fine because the parents love them so much. How good of a father can he be if he is willing to put his marriage at risk because of an OW? A man that really wants to leave his wife and keep a good relationship with his kids, gets a divorce before he starts to mess around with OW.

 

As far as the mighty dollar, if you are saying that the MM loves his money more than he loves the OW, then that OW should take a good look at how she is valued. I can't imagine putting money before love and happiness. Why would anyone including the wife want to be with such a man?

 

I can only truly speak from personal experience for some of this. I can tell you that I put in a lot of unhappy years with a man I no longer loved for many reasons - mostly my kids. Money was never an issue for me so that is speaking from second hand knowledge only. Though I have talked to many male friends and that seems to be a fear that most have.

 

If I was thinking of leaving my husband in the current economy that I live in, it would certainly be more of an issue than it was before. And honestly might be enough of a problem that I would have stayed with him.

 

And I don't think that the money is necessarily a case of loving money more than OW, but the financial logistics of supporting his kids in one home and himself in another. While I don't believe that money was an issue for my xMM - I believe it was a large part of why his W wanted to reconcile - life wasn't so rosy for her with only child support.

 

Clearly I am not speaking of executive level salaries here - just your basic middle class people. Mortgage, 2 cars, maybe a summer vacation home.

 

As for being a good father - he is the best. Better than my exH and better than any other that I know. And his biggest fear is that his W would take the kids and leave the country. That would devastate him.

 

So I guess the bottom line (and my response to your question) is that I think people will try to make their situations tolerable in order to do what they believe is right for others. So yes, I think a man or woman would try to make a marriage work even if they aren't in love with the other person.

 

Generationally speaking, I think that everyone wants to believe that it will work forever, but if it isn't, it is easier and more socially acceptable to get a divorce now than it ever was in the past. But, I think most people (especially those with kids) agonize over the decision and spend years coming to it. For myself, I still feel as though I failed in some way. However, I do recognize that both my children and myself are much better off the way things are now.

 

Admittedly, I have been fortunate in that my divorce was quite amicable and there was no issue of infidelity to deal with either.

[Babybird]

A lot of good points about money and the love by MM for his W.

 

I never meant to imply that the MM loved money more than her and like others pointed out it isn't always easy to walk away. My exH has two exW. Me and another woman. He pays $600 to his first W and if we didn't have joint placement he would be paying me $500. Instead he pays $250. So imagine being this man paying $1100 dollars a month in support when he only makes $2400. How do you live?

 

Or still paying for half of a $1400 mortgage per month and trying to pay for your own rent? Damn near impossible.

 

A lot of men and women love their spouse for being the parent of the children and not because they are their spouse. Think about it for a minute, I don't love my exH as a man and a lover but I do as the parent of my children. I would never want any harm to come to him.

 

What is so odd about staying in a marriage that lacks love? If the M isn't constant fighting, if they truly do act like roommates or worse(never talking, basically just co-existing) then why would that be so hard to bear? Then you have your house, your kid(s), the money....and are completely miserable because you miss the love. In comes the affair. I lived out my last M like that because I was scared to death of not having money to live. I didn't have a job, I couldn't stand him, and I had three small kids. So I stayed for an additional 3 years. Same for my ex.

 

I can't understand why so many people find it so hard to believe that the MM could actually be telling the truth. Yes, they can manipulate the situation to get what the want...WHO DOESN'T?? I know I sure as hell do. With my kids, family, men, sometimes my friends. That's life. It doesn't make you a bad person or a liar. Just smart enough to figure out a way to get what you want. Manipulating doesn't automatically mean that you are lying.

 

BTW: I think whoever said that come D-day the MM realizes that his W still loves him is very wise. The only way he's going to know is if she shows it. The easiest way to show it is communication and intimacy. Intimacy includes love and making love. If the aren't making love, like most MM say, then how is he supposed to know how she really feels? Words aren't always good enough. He has to feel loved, desired, and needed. We all do.

[outofdarkness]

A lot of good points about money and the love by MM for his W.

 

I never meant to imply that the MM loved money more than her and like others pointed out it isn't always easy to walk away. My exH has two exW. Me and another woman. He pays $600 to his first W and if we didn't have joint placement he would be paying me $500. Instead he pays $250. So imagine being this man paying $1100 dollars a month in support when he only makes $2400. How do you live?

 

Or still paying for half of a $1400 mortgage per month and trying to pay for your own rent? Damn near impossible.

 

A lot of men and women love their spouse for being the parent of the children and not because they are their spouse. Think about it for a minute, I don't love my exH as a man and a lover but I do as the parent of my children. I would never want any harm to come to him.

 

What is so odd about staying in a marriage that lacks love? If the M isn't constant fighting, if they truly do act like roommates or worse(never talking, basically just co-existing) then why would that be so hard to bear? Then you have your house, your kid(s), the money....and are completely miserable because you miss the love. In comes the affair. I lived out my last M like that because I was scared to death of not having money to live. I didn't have a job, I couldn't stand him, and I had three small kids. So I stayed for an additional 3 years. Same for my ex.

 

I can't understand why so many people find it so hard to believe that the MM could actually be telling the truth. Yes, they can manipulate the situation to get what the want...WHO DOESN'T?? I know I sure as hell do. With my kids, family, men, sometimes my friends. That's life. It doesn't make you a bad person or a liar. Just smart enough to figure out a way to get what you want. Manipulating doesn't automatically mean that you are lying.

 

BTW: I think whoever said that come D-day the MM realizes that his W still loves him is very wise. The only way he's going to know is if she shows it. The easiest way to show it is communication and intimacy. Intimacy includes love and making love. If the aren't making love, like most MM say, then how is he supposed to know how she really feels? Words aren't always good enough. He has to feel loved, desired, and needed. We all do.

But how do you know that what he is telling you is the truth about whether or not he is making love w/ his wife, etc.? If he lies to her, an dhe does, why would he tell you the truth. Most W's will tell you that they continued to have sex w/ their H's throughout A's, and most MM's will admit this when caught...

[Chapter2]

How does either the BS or the OM/OW know if the WS is telling the truth or lying. They don't...ever. SO many people say "well, I know this is true because of this" or "this has to be true because of this"...no one knows if they are telling the truth or not.

 

The married individual who makes the choice to cheat on their spouse is lying to everyone...they are lying to their spouse, the OM/OW and themselves. Unless there is real change "for themselves" and not for their spouse, their kids, their family, their wealth, etc., then they WILL absolutely lie again and again. You can call it relapsing, acting out, falling into lust, being seduced, whatever you choose...

 

I'm not convinced that a person who has been enabled in the cheating process can ever change within that relationship.

[sadbuttrue]

i also agree that on d-day, the MM may finally realize that his W actually does love him. i believe this happened with my MM, and i even told him so. He had told me that she didnt care about him, after that day, i told him that he must know now that she does love him. she showed it that day.

[Babybird]

But how do you know that what he is telling you is the truth about whether or not he is making love w/ his wife, etc.? If he lies to her, and he does, why would he tell you the truth. Most W's will tell you that they continued to have sex w/ their H's throughout A's, and most MM's will admit this when caught...

 

I suppose you could look at it this way...if you never ask if he is making love with his wife he isn't going to lie right? Unless he specifically makes a point to bring up the lie. But why would he do that? Even if he is and you (as the OW) have made it known that if he is intimate with her its obviously none of your business than why wouldn't he be honest?

 

I don't think that my MM has sex very often with his wife not that he never does and I know most of them do lie about sex. I just don't think that all of them do specifically because I know so many MM that don't! And they aren't even having A's.

[outofdarkness]

I suppose you could look at it this way...if you never ask if he is making love with his wife he isn't going to lie right? Unless he specifically makes a point to bring up the lie. But why would he do that? Even if he is and you (as the OW) have made it known that if he is intimate with her its obviously none of your business than why wouldn't he be honest?

 

I don't think that my MM has sex very often with his wife not that he never does and I know most of them do lie about sex. I just don't think that all of them do specifically because I know so many MM that don't! And they aren't even having A's.

Well...b/c the MM wants the OW to think that you are the only one that he is intimate w/ in every way. So...just b/c he never brings it up and you know and/or have made it known that it's none of your business, the mm still wants you to think/or know, admittedly in some cases b/c it is the case in a small # of A's, that he is being "faithful" to YOU as the OW...He has to have some sort of justification in his mind for cheating on his W and family...He can't sleep well or function during the day unless he can convince himself the his Ow that things are pretty damn crappy at home, particularly in the bedroom...The Main 10 year OW of my H's told me the one time we spoke that she was shocked that I didn't know of the A...My H had told her all along that I knew and was ok w/ it. She said that she would like to think that had she known that I was unaware, she would not have continued the R...It would have been too much for her to continue knowing she was being so deceitful...Like you, I wasn't discussed very much at all, until the end, when he apparently made promises, who wouldn't expect some sort of commitment after 10 years, when she began to pressure him and at THIS time "some" was discussed about me...I'm sure there were bits and pieces along the way...Just enough for her to feel ok about what she was doing...ie...loving someone who has not been loved or attended to, giving advice about the kids, etc...He convinced her that he was not getting what he needed at home, but the funny thing is that the reason why he may have felt that way is b/c it's all sucked out by the OW(s)...There is nothing left for the W...Everyone gets screwed by the lies and deceit...OW AND W...In my opinion...but I'm not a marriage expert...I guess I need to make this my signature now! lol..

[Can'tGiveUp]

How does either the BS or the OM/OW know if the WS is telling the truth or lying. They don't...ever. SO many people say "well, I know this is true because of this" or "this has to be true because of this"...no one knows if they are telling the truth or not.

 

The married individual who makes the choice to cheat on their spouse is lying to everyone...they are lying to their spouse, the OM/OW and themselves. Unless there is real change "for themselves" and not for their spouse, their kids, their family, their wealth, etc., then they WILL absolutely lie again and again. You can call it relapsing, acting out, falling into lust, being seduced, whatever you choose...

 

I'm not convinced that a person who has been enabled in the cheating process can ever change within that relationship.

 

I will always maintain that he never lied to me. As for sex with W, I know he was - and while I certainly never asked about it during the A, we shared much of what our sex lives were like when we were both separated so I have a good idea of what it was like. And lets just say that there were three of us anxiously waiting for the results of a pregnancy test - and I wasn't the one taking the test.

[woe_is_me]

How does either the BS or the OM/OW know if the WS is telling the truth or lying. They don't...ever. SO many people say "well, I know this is true because of this" or "this has to be true because of this"...no one knows if they are telling the truth or not.

 

The married individual who makes the choice to cheat on their spouse is lying to everyone...they are lying to their spouse, the OM/OW and themselves. Unless there is real change "for themselves" and not for their spouse, their kids, their family, their wealth, etc., then they WILL absolutely lie again and again. You can call it relapsing, acting out, falling into lust, being seduced, whatever you choose...

 

I'm not convinced that a person who has been enabled in the cheating process can ever change within that relationship.

 

so so true Chapter2 ..and how i feel exactly.. i never for a moment forgot that i only ever heard one side of the story..

i'll cut a long story short as much as to say that during our A they fell on hard times ..just breifly.. and he found out she had money hidden from him he didn't know about .. and i could only think to myself 'she wanted out'

 

Thats my gut feeling anyway and as much as i know/knew him that whole 'other part' of him ..that i don't know..i don't know what to think.

 

On a brighter note though ..today has been great! *thumbs up* it sure as hell isn't going to take me over 12 months to get past his cutting ways this time... i should just take pleasure in knowing he can't erase the memory of me after four years and that i was meant to accidentally cause D day for a reason...be it for his W or me..or both of us ..*shrugs* ..

 

don't u love it when those alannis morrisette songs come on like right now? lol ..mr duplicity

[IfWishesWereHorses]

I think what is so very hard for BS's and OW alike to understand is "Why would he say it (whatever) if it wasn't true," no one asked him to say this or that. Its hard for most people to understand. I know that that has been a major stumbling block for me. I think that it is easier just to accept facts sometime that try to understand the whys.

[woe_is_me]

well i'm not calling any numbers that she has left as bait for me....

 

i refuse to 'lend' anything to their marriage in any way whatsoever ...and if he's tried to tell her im 'psycho' then he will be having a hard time proving so .. and from what i've read shes only going to think that we have gone 'undercover' ... because i know its what i would think...

 

how does a marriage survive this...?oh ..silly me ..money..

[Chapter2]

Good for you WIM!! I don't believe for a second that he'll ever be able to erase the memory of you and he's proven that hasn't he? Irregardless of his choice to continue his marriage, he has also proven that he still has no respect for his wife... you can't have love without respect.

 

Love it--Mr. Duplicity!!

 

On a brighter note though ..today has been great! *thumbs up* it sure as hell isn't going to take me over 12 months to get past his cutting ways this time... i should just take pleasure in knowing he can't erase the memory of me after four years and that i was meant to accidentally cause D day for a reason...be it for his W or me..or both of us ..*shrugs* ..

 

don't u love it when those alannis morrisette songs come on like right now? lol ..mr duplicity