Sufferings is result of our sins?

[Island Girl]

So, who will stand out to say "I am a good person"?

 

I WILL.

[Moai]

T,

 

On the dead being raised and transformed:

 

1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 

Explain how this doesn't make the Rapture impossible.

[Moai]

Mary K. Baxter… is a prophet of God, likewise Bill Wiese. God speaks to a few to speak to many.

 

According to the Old Testament, God speaks to everybody. Ask a Rabbi if you don't believe me. Why the change?

 

No reincarnation; scripture tells us we will be transformed. We shall have a new glorified body even as like unto Christs glorified body.

The same Holy Spirit that raised Him from the tomb will rise us up in a twinkling of an eye and we shall be transformed into a body that will not fade away, having no spot or blemish no disease no corruption.

Flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Flesh and blood is corruption in itself.

 

So Jesus, who was flesh and blood, was corrupt. Interestingly, that is another reason that Jews don't believe that the Messiah will be part God. God is perfect, and so would not enter the flesh, as the flesh is corrupt. The Bible says so You say so.

[Island Girl]

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.

 

Because God needed to orchestrate a big plan in order to achieve this - He couldn't just fix it.

 

God, though he has to give Satan permission to do ANYTHING, can't really stop Satan from doing evil.

 

-- right.

 

So He had to create a son - allow him to be killed to wash sin away that He could have just forgiven in the first place.

 

Yeah, makes a lot of sense that an all powerful being who created EVERYTHING from scratch - the intricate biological beings that inhabit this planet, AND the planet -- AND LIGHT -- had to create a vast plan that would take thousands of years to come to pass...and we're still waiting and still being told "the end is coming!"

 

Oh puhlease!

[burning 4 revenge]

Explain how this doesn't make the Rapture impossible.

I think Paul was mixing platonic, gnostic and pharasaic jewish ideas into an incomprehensible mess. He made it all sound very nice and poetic though.

[Island Girl]

I know you are trying your best. BUT God do exist, heaven and hell do exist. After we die, our soul still exist. Did you read other forum about "ghost"? It means there are some insivible things exist!

 

 

Belief in Heaven or Hell or God is what makes them "exist" for you.

 

It remains to be seen if you are indeed correct.

 

And a forum about a ghost does not mean there are "invisible things" that exist - like fairies, goblins, unicorns, Santa, gnomes, etc.

 

It just means SOME people believe that they do.

 

People believe A LOT of wacky stuff it doesn't mean it is verifiable or true.

[lonelybird]

According to the Old Testament, God speaks to everybody. Ask a Rabbi if you don't believe me. Why the change?

 

 

So Jesus, who was flesh and blood, was corrupt. Interestingly, that is another reason that Jews don't believe that the Messiah will be part God. God is perfect, and so would not enter the flesh, as the flesh is corrupt. The Bible says so You say so.

No, didn't change. just that many people cannot hear or choose to ignore, not that God don't speak to them.

 

Isaiah 9:6 For a child has been born to us,

a son has been given to us.

He shoulders responsibility

and is called:

Wonderful Counselor,

Mighty God,

Everlasting Father,

Prince of Peace.

9:7 His dominion will be vast

and he will bring immeasurable prosperity.

He will rule on David’s throne

and over David’s kingdom,

establishing it and strengthening it

by promoting justice and fairness,

from this time forward and forevermore.

The Lord’s intense devotion to his people will accomplish this.

 

Here God enter the flesh

Isaiah

11:2 The Lord’s spirit will rest on him–

a spirit that gives extraordinary wisdom,

a spirit that provides the ability to execute plans,

a spirit that produces absolute loyalty to the Lord.

11:3 He will take delight in obeying the Lord.

He will not judge by mere appearances,

or make decisions on the basis of hearsay.

11:4 He will treat the poor fairly,

and make right decisions for the downtrodden of the earth.

He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth,

and order the wicked to be executed.

[LaughMachine]

Sorry guys but you all are getting a little bit creepy....

 

but I do like your avater island girl. Was that a drawing?

[Island Girl]

Sorry guys but you all are getting a little bit creepy....

 

but I do like your avater island girl. Was that a drawing?

 

 

Creepy? -- But that is what all of this is about...fear of fire and brimstone! OR NOT!

 

 

The avi is a picture of my favorite flower - Plumeria - or Frangipani.

[LaughMachine]

Creepy? -- But that is what all of this is about...fear of fire and brimstone! OR NOT!

 

 

The avi is a picture of my favorite flower - Plumeria - or Frangipani.

 

 

 

What makes you believe the bible? Again not being critical I'm curious to know. And when is this " rapture coming " ?

[Love Hurts]

Possibly not a sin punishable by death...by reading the old testament I think it may have led to stoning but have not researched enough to say this would be the case

 

HOWEVER -- it IS sin enough according to the bible to not get into Heaven.

 

Awwwwwwwwww. And after all of the hard work.

 

The Old Testament laws have changed quite a bit for us in the New Testament.

 

For instance in the O.T. adulterers were stoned to death leaving the innocent party free to marry the very next morning.

 

 

Jesus said let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

 

Matthew 5:31

It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

 

If a couple cannot work things out; by all means divorce its not the unforgivable sin.

 

Expect some changes.

 

 

[Island Girl]

What makes you believe the bible? Again not being critical I'm curious to know. And when is this " rapture coming " ?

 

I'm not a believer. I do not believe the bible is true.

 

As far as The Rapture -- well they've been saying for thousands of years that it is coming...wait for it...any day now...any minute...maybe tomorrow...or next week...or a year from now...or ten years from now...etc. etc. etc.

[Island Girl]

The Old Testament laws have changed quite a bit for us in the New Testament.

 

Ah but -- question or comment dodger LH -- NO WHERE does the bible say The Sabbath becomes Sunday and it is a sin punishable by NOT getting into Heaven.

 

How do you reconcile yourself with that?

[Love Hurts]

Explain how this doesn't make the Rapture impossible.

You could have read the post in full and it explains all.

Or I could simply repost what I already have.

Can we do any better on this one?

You usually dissect everything what happened?

You’re missing the lot of it.

[Love Hurts]

Ah but -- question or comment dodger LH -- NO WHERE does the bible say The Sabbath becomes Sunday and it is a sin punishable by NOT getting into Heaven.

 

How do you reconcile yourself with that?

 

Keep the Sabbath Day Holy; is the commandment.

If we broke one commandment we broke them all.

 

James 2:10-11 Break one break all.

 

Some sins are not to death and some are.

 

I don’t believe if one is worshipping and praising the Lord.

And finds out at the end of his life He was praising His God

Jesus on the wrong Day of the week … That Jesus would say get away

from me you worker of iniquity.

 

He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples with equity.

(Ps 98.9)

 

Equity- and none will say 'not fair' with God's judgment... none will argue their situation is unfair.

We can know for certain through Equity all will be judged.

 

God is just. And fair.

[lonelybird]

Ah but -- question or comment dodger LH -- NO WHERE does the bible say The Sabbath becomes Sunday and it is a sin punishable by NOT getting into Heaven.

 

How do you reconcile yourself with that?

It is easy:D . We follow instruction of Holy Spirit who come from God Father. IF Holy Spirit don't want us to worship on Sunday, He will speak clearly. but so far He didn't say it is wrong.....

[Island Girl]

It is easy:D . We follow instruction of Holy Spirit who come from God Father. IF Holy Spirit don't want us to worship on Sunday, He will speak clearly. but so far He didn't say it is wrong.....

 

uh yes He did.

 

He said not to work but only worship on the Sabbath -- and you don't observe the Sabbath. So it is against what God -- YOUR God --- specifically said.

 

And no where does it change to be "it's okay - now you can worship on Sunday if you want".

 

Since you're so good at posting scripture, find the one that says it's okay to work on the Sabbath -- or that you can observe whatever day of worship that you want and it doesn't matter. I'd LOVE to see it.

[lonelybird]

Ah but -- question or comment dodger LH -- NO WHERE does the bible say The Sabbath becomes Sunday and it is a sin punishable by NOT getting into Heaven.

 

How do you reconcile yourself with that?

Island Girl, I just read this, I think this will bless you

 

Throughout the book of Jeremiah, he has continually charged the people with being a nation of covenant-breakers. They have transgressed the covenant and have therefore brought the curses of the covenant upon themselves. They are called to repent, but they continue to refuse.Why? Because of an INTERNAL problem. Jeremiah has already pointed out this problem:

 

9 The heart is more deceitful than all else

And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

10 I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind,

Even to give to each man according to his ways,

According to the results of his deeds. (Jeremiah 17:9-10)

 

Hebrews quotes this passage to show that the New Covenant is better than the Old Covenant. There are four specific reasons why this is so.

 

The New Covenant is Better because it is an Internal Covenant:

I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it (31:33). The participant in the New Covenant has something that the believer of past ages never had. He has the Holy Spirit living within him. He has the Keeper of the Covenant indwelling him. And that makes a big difference. It means that God has gifted His people in a special way, working from the inside out.

 

The New Covenant is Better because it in All-Inclusive: And they shall not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD (31:34).

The Old Covenant was primarily Jewish in scope. It was focused upon the landof Israel and upon the sacrifices that took place in Jerusalem. If you wanted to enter the Old Covenant and were not Jewish, you had to proselyte to Judaism. This called for circumcision and an adherence to the Law.

 

But this changes with the New Covenant. Even though it is made with the House of Judah and with the House of Israel, it looks outward to the world to invite all men to enter the Kingdom.

 

The New Covenant is Better because it Forgives Sins: For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more (31:34).

The Israelites broke the Old Covenant. God wrote His commands on tablets of stone and when the Israelites disobeyed, Moses took the tablets and shattered them. But the New Covenant is not written upon tablets of stone. It is written in men’s hearts. And because it is written in men’s hearts, it brings with it the means of fulfilling its obligations.

How can you possibly fulfill the obligations of the New Covenant? It is only by trusting in the One who fulfilled them on your behalf. That is what verse 34 says: For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.

This was the greatest failure of the Old Covenant. It could not forgive sins. It could temporarily cover sins with animal sacrifices that looked forward to a future fulfillment. But the blood of sheep and goats can never take away sin. For this there needed to be a New Covenant relationship.

 

The New Covenant is Better because is does not become Obsolete.

When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear (Hebrews 8:13)

 

 

All other things being equal, new is better than old. A new dress versus an old dress. A new loaf of bread is better than an old crusty one. People naturally gravitate to that which is new. The fact that a New Covenant was promised indicates that the Old Covenant would be rendered obsolete.

[Island Girl]

Island Girl, I just read this, I think this will bless you

 

Again you dodge a direct comment.

 

You can not produce what is asked so you spout some passage that you think will somehow "bless" me.

 

I do not seek "blessings" from God. I do not believe in "blessings" from God.

 

I read the passage you posted -- it is the same blah blah blah - that is continually posted by you or LH as if putting it in print somehow carries some weight or lends itself to truth.

 

It doesn't.

 

You just keep quoting a book - referring to the book - and giving us your interpretation of the same book.

 

What else do you have to offer as any proof that this book is true at all? None.

 

Using quotes from the bible to prove the bible is true doesn't work. It can't verify itself and hold up as undeniable.

 

You're probably going to misinterpret this and I am going to get quotation after quotation from the bible --- AGAIN.

 

But as LH pointed out. There is always hope!

[Love Hurts]

uh yes He did.

 

He said not to work but only worship on the Sabbath -- and you don't observe the Sabbath. So it is against what God -- YOUR God --- specifically said.

 

And no where does it change to be "it's okay - now you can worship on Sunday if you want".

 

Since you're so good at posting scripture, find the one that says it's okay to work on the Sabbath -- or that you can observe whatever day of worship that you want and it doesn't matter. I'd LOVE to see it.

Its why God is Just and Fair … we are human and we will fail.

 

Millions of people worship on the wrong Day.

They go to church on Sundays thus millions have been saved as we

can imagine on Sunday at the altar call.

 

Obviously the Holy Spirit is working on Sunday

in that same Church in order for those souls to become saved...right?

 

If God was Angry or Upset with ignorant sinners

for worshipping on the wrong day.

Why then would He fill them with His Holy Spirit on Sunday?

 

Psalm 73:22

So foolish was I, and IGNORANT: I was as a beast before thee.

 

Numbers 15:28

when he sinneth by IGNORANCE before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

 

Christ receives the sinful men.

[Island Girl]

Millions of people worship on the wrong Day.

 

Yep -- and millions -- and obviously you -- are going against what is written in the bible. Written by God.

 

Kinda the same way everyone else behaves that doesn't believe the same way you do. They are going against what is written - what God set down as the rules - so if you are forgiven, why aren't they?

 

They go to church on Sundays thus millions have been saved as we

can imagine on Sunday at the altar call.

 

They may go to church but it remains to be seen if they are "saved".

 

Obviously the Holy Spirit is working on Sunday

in that same Church in order for those souls to become saved...right?

 

No it is not obvious. There is no telling if those in that church truly are "saved" or not.

 

And using this as an excuse as to why defying the bible is alright sometimes - by you and your kind but not others - is hilarious.

 

If God was Angry or Upset with ignorant sinners

for worshipping on the wrong day.

Why then would He fill them with His Holy Spirit on Sunday?

 

There is no saying they ARE filled with His Holy Spirit. They say so - but they can and often do lie.

 

AND as you have so often pointed out - and demonstrated - He will allow the misguided to be misguided and they will absolutely remain misguided with no interference from Him.

 

uh oh.

[Moai]

No, didn't change. just that many people cannot hear or choose to ignore, not that God don't speak to them.

 

(edit)

 

Here God enter the flesh

 

Your Isaiah quote is misleading, and you interpret it incorrectly. The Jews used to name their children with "godly" names. In Psalms 82:6 we read, "I said: You are gods. You are all sons of the most high." In the Old Testament, it is clear that to be called "god" or one of the "gods" was not to imply that one was God Almighty himself (Jehovah).

 

The passage refers to Hezekiah, not Jesus.

 

I quote from www.jewsforjudaism.com :

 

"While admitting that "wonderful counselor" and "ruler of peace" can be applied to a man, Christian theologians argue that the phrases "mighty God" and "everlasting Father" cannot be incorporated as part of a man's name. Thus, they contend that Isaiah teaches that the Messiah has to be not only a man, but God as well. That this entire reasoning is incorrect may be seen from the name Elihu, "My God is He," which refers to an ordinary human being (Job 32:1, 1 Samuel 1:l, 1 Chronicles 12:21, 26:7, 27:18). A similar Christian misunderstanding of Scripture may be seen in their claims revolving around the name Immanuel, "God is with us." The simple fact is that it is quite common in the Bible for human beings to be given names that have the purpose of declaring or reflecting a particular attribute of God, e.g., Eliab, Eliada, Elzaphan, Eliakim, Elisha, Eleazar, Tavel, Gedaliah.

The fact remains that Jesus did not literally or figuratively fulfill any of Isaiah's words. A wonderful counselor does not advise his followers that if they have faith they can be agents of destruction (Matthew 21:19-21; Mark 11:14, 20-23). A mighty God does not take orders from anyone (Luke2:51, Hebrews 5:8), for no one is greater than he is (Matthew 12:31-32; John 5:30, 14:28). Moreover, he does not ask or need to be saved by anyone (Matthew 26:39, Luke 22:42), for he cannot die by any means (Matthew 27:50, Mark 15:37, Luke 23:46, John 19:30). He who is called the Son of God the Father (John 1:18, 3:16) cannot himself be called everlasting Father. One cannot play simultaneously the role of the son and the Father; it is an obvious self-contradiction. He who advocates family strife (Matthew 10:34-35, Luke 12:49-53) and killing enemies (Luke 19:27) cannot be called a ruler of peace."

 

 

Rabbis know Hebrew better than anyone on the planet, and they say your translations and interpretations of the Old Testament is wrong.

 

The translations you use are wrong. Even the way the names are translated are wrong. This was done by early church fathers to wrench in their pagan mythos. Twist it how you will, but you have three gods at least--you could even say four (if you consider how powerful Christians think Satan is). Jesus says that even he doesn't know when he is coming back--impossible if Jesus and God was the same person.

 

And for the record, from Jews For Judaism: "The Bible never speaks about believing in the Messiah. Because his reign will be an historically verifiable reality, self-evident to any person, it won’t require belief or faith."

 

By Bible they mean the Old Testament, by the way.

[Island Girl]

Your Isaiah quote is misleading, and you interpret it incorrectly. The Jews used to name their children with "godly" names. In Psalms 82:6 we read, "I said: You are gods. You are all sons of the most high." In the Old Testament, it is clear that to be called "god" or one of the "gods" was not to imply that one was God Almighty himself (Jehovah).

 

The passage refers to Hezekiah, not Jesus.

 

I quote from www.jewsforjudaism.com :

 

"While admitting that "wonderful counselor" and "ruler of peace" can be applied to a man, Christian theologians argue that the phrases "mighty God" and "everlasting Father" cannot be incorporated as part of a man's name. Thus, they contend that Isaiah teaches that the Messiah has to be not only a man, but God as well. That this entire reasoning is incorrect may be seen from the name Elihu, "My God is He," which refers to an ordinary human being (Job 32:1, 1 Samuel 1:l, 1 Chronicles 12:21, 26:7, 27:18). A similar Christian misunderstanding of Scripture may be seen in their claims revolving around the name Immanuel, "God is with us." The simple fact is that it is quite common in the Bible for human beings to be given names that have the purpose of declaring or reflecting a particular attribute of God, e.g., Eliab, Eliada, Elzaphan, Eliakim, Elisha, Eleazar, Tavel, Gedaliah.

The fact remains that Jesus did not literally or figuratively fulfill any of Isaiah's words. A wonderful counselor does not advise his followers that if they have faith they can be agents of destruction (Matthew 21:19-21; Mark 11:14, 20-23). A mighty God does not take orders from anyone (Luke2:51, Hebrews 5:8), for no one is greater than he is (Matthew 12:31-32; John 5:30, 14:28). Moreover, he does not ask or need to be saved by anyone (Matthew 26:39, Luke 22:42), for he cannot die by any means (Matthew 27:50, Mark 15:37, Luke 23:46, John 19:30). He who is called the Son of God the Father (John 1:18, 3:16) cannot himself be called everlasting Father. One cannot play simultaneously the role of the son and the Father; it is an obvious self-contradiction. He who advocates family strife (Matthew 10:34-35, Luke 12:49-53) and killing enemies (Luke 19:27) cannot be called a ruler of peace."

 

 

Rabbis know Hebrew better than anyone on the planet, and they say your translations and interpretations of the Old Testament is wrong.

 

The translations you use are wrong. Even the way the names are translated are wrong. This was done by early church fathers to wrench in their pagan mythos. Twist it how you will, but you have three gods at least--you could even say four (if you consider how powerful Christians think Satan is). Jesus says that even he doesn't know when he is coming back--impossible if Jesus and God was the same person.

 

And for the record, from Jews For Judaism: "The Bible never speaks about believing in the Messiah. Because his reign will be an historically verifiable reality, self-evident to any person, it won’t require belief or faith."

 

By Bible they mean the Old Testament, by the way.

 

Preach brotha, preach!

 

I'm lovin' the bunnies:bunny::bunny:

[Moai]

What makes you believe the bible? Again not being critical I'm curious to know. And when is this " rapture coming " ?

 

The Rapture is coming on October 9, 2007 at 10:45pm Pacific Daylight Time.

[burning 4 revenge]

Moai do you think Jesus was possibly delusional? It states early in Mark (the first gospel written) that his family thought he was mad and that the pharisees said he was posessed by beelzebub.

 

I sometimes wonder if he real Jesus would shock many modern people with their image having been informed by modern European interpretation. I wonder if he would been loud and wild eyed and speak with anger....fly into trances and quake and shout frightening incantations when casting out spirits