Sufferings is result of our sins?

[Moai]

The New Testament Books also tell of what was and what isn’t any longer.

In O.T. before Christ… we must know sin is grave to God. NO basket of fruit offered is acceptable as in the Cain and Able story. One offering pleased God the other did not.

 

Animal blood was a covering for sin. Today it is no longer necessary… Jesus blood shed is the blood that cleanses and is atonement for sin.

 

I know you believe that. You left out the part of my post where I predicted that is what your response would be. You is the point, though. You said God is unchanging. But obviously, he has changed. He used to demand blood sacrifice as the smell was pleasing to him, but now he doesn't. Jesus wasn't burned, so he just lost his taste for the smell, apparently.

 

I notice you have no specific moral problem with animal sacrifice--or deity sacrifice for that matter.

 

And Cain couldn't sacrifice animals, as he was a farmer and all he had were plants. So, instead of god saying, "Sacrifice what you can, it is the thought that counts" he favored Abel, because he was a rancher. Now, god thinks that it is the thought that counts. Yet again, god has changed.

 

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life.

No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

For it is by grace you have been saved, though faith - and this not

from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one

can boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

 

Moai have you ever been to a barbeque?

The aroma is pleasing.

If you eat meat; you may be considered vicious; as some animal had to satisfy you.

How horrible if you’re a meat eater…imagine the death of an animal that you might be pleased.

 

There is a big difference between a barbeque and ritual animal sacrifice. For one, the barbeque exists to feed people. Nobody eats the meat that is sacrificed. Even god. There are no accounts of god coming down and enjoying the fruits of the sacrifice. They just sit there and spoil. Is the smell of spoiling meat pleasing to the Lord? The animal is killed for no reason, other than to provide god with a pleasing aroma. And, since there are barbeques going all the time, why kill an animal just for the smell? God is everywhere, so he can smell all the barbeque he wants any time he wants. But no, he demands that you kill an animal--an innocent animal--and burn the internal organs because it is pleasing to him and if you don't he'll smite you.

 

But wait! Then god figures out that he can avoid all the bloodshed and have his own kid killed, and that'll fix everything.

[burning 4 revenge]

 

There is a big difference between a barbeque and ritual animal sacrifice. For one, the barbeque exists to feed people. Nobody eats the meat that is sacrificed.

Actually that's not true. In the Second Temple the Priests would eat the meat from the sacrifice. That's what they lived on.

[Moai]

Psalms

14:1 Fools say to themselves,“There is no God.”

They sin and commit evil deeds;

none of them does what is right.

 

Again the Bible is wrong. I suppose I sin because I don't follow all the commandments, but I don't commit evil deeds. Nor have I ever. In fact, I do what is right almost all the time.

 

Today I was waiting for a cab, and there was someone else also waiting, who was there before me. When a cab arrived, the driver looked at me and asked if I had called a cab. I alerted the other man and told him that his cab was here, and gave it to him, as he was there first. I was in a hurry, but to take that guy's cab would have been wrong.

 

I did the right thing, and so the verse above is wrong. I am one that does. The scripture says "none" so even if I am the only one--which I am certainly not--the scripture fails.

 

14:2 The Lord looks down from heaven at the human race,

to see if there is anyone who is wise and seeks God.

 

No, he doesn't. Where is he? We have telescopes that see far into space, and not a glimpse of god. So, god must be invisible. So, your god, who is invisible, looks down on us. That's one outlandish thing I have to accept so far...

 

14:3 Everyone rejects God;

they are all morally corrupt.

None of them does what is right,

not even one!

 

See above. I am at least as moral as any Christian on this board, and easily more moral than any Christian I have met IRL. The scripture here is wrong.

 

I have even a better example. Ghandi rejected your god (which, by definition is the only one, right?) and he was good and moral.

 

14:4 All those who behave wickedly do not understand –

those who devour my people as if they were eating bread,

and do not call out to the Lord.

 

14:5 They are absolutely terrified,

for God defends the godly.

 

Apparently not. Christians in the Sudan are tortured, raped, murdered and sold into slavery all the time. It is happening right now. Where is god? He is supposed to be defending them, right?

 

14:6 You want to humiliate the oppressed,

even though the Lord is their shelter.

 

14:7 I wish the deliverance of Israel would come from Zion!

When the Lord restores the well-being of his people,

may Jacob rejoice,

may Israel be happy!

 

Which begs the question as to why it needs to be restored in the first place, if god protects the godly. And I hope to defend the oppressed to the best of my ability, but I don't believe in god. How can that be?

 

And while I do hope that Israel finds peace someday, I don't think that they are anything special beyond being another constitutional republic.

 

 

11:7 The LORD is righteous and loves good deeds; those who do them will live in his presence.

 

So I'm in. Doesn't this contradict the "saved by grace" doctrine?

[Moai]

Actually that's not true. In the Second Temple the Priests would eat the meat from the sacrifice. That's what they lived on.

 

That is not my understanding, but it would make sense. Tell everyone that god loves the smell of your favorite meat, prepared the way you like it.

 

I'm off to look that up!

[burning 4 revenge]

That is not my understanding, but it would make sense. Tell everyone that god loves the smell of your favorite meat, prepared the way you like it.

 

I'm off to look that up!

Sometimes they would offer up burnt offerings which means they would incinerate the carcass, but generally they would eat the meat of the sacrifice.

[lonelybird]

.....

And Cain couldn't sacrifice animals, as he was a farmer and all he had were plants. So, instead of god saying, "Sacrifice what you can, it is the thought that counts" he favored Abel, because he was a rancher. .....

Cain's offering was not accompanied by an attitude of love and faith. This is suggested by the words of the Lord in verse 7, “If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

[lonelybird]

See above. I am at least as moral as any Christian on this board, and easily more moral than any Christian I have met IRL. The scripture here is wrong.

 

......

ummm, only God knows if you are moral, maybe you are, but you are so negative, and live by SIGHT

[Moai]

ummm, only God knows if you are moral, maybe you are, but you are so negative, and live by SIGHT

 

I'm not negative. I just don't share your god belief.

 

I don't know what you mean by live by "sight", unless by that you mean I require empirical evidence for my beliefs, in which case that is true. I think that you should do the same. I know that I am much happier now than I was when I was a believer.

 

Imagine how much energy you will have to learn and grow when you don't have to read scripture all the time, worry about demons behind every tree, and what god's will might be. You use your own moral sense a great deal more, and become a much more forgiving, loving person.

 

When I was a believer, I agreed with those in my church (and all other believers I encountered) that homosexuality was wrong. I never "bashed" anyone, nor was I openly mean to anyone, but I kept my distance from homosexuals and debated a few about their deviant lifestyle.

 

Then, as my disbelief grew, I began to see that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality at all. What do I care what they do behind closed doors? Why would god care (I know, he does, you don't need to quote the scripture)?

 

I am now good friends with quite a few homosexuals--men and women--and not only are they awesome people, I learn a lot from them. I don't even think about who they are sleeping with, nor should I. My life is better for their being in it, and that would not have happened if I still believed as you do.

[lonelybird]

I'm not negative. I just don't share your god belief.

 

I don't know what you mean by live by "sight", unless by that you mean I require empirical evidence for my beliefs, in which case that is true. I think that you should do the same. I know that I am much happier now than I was when I was a believer.

 

Imagine how much energy you will have to learn and grow when you don't have to read scripture all the time, worry about demons behind every tree, and what god's will might be. You use your own moral sense a great deal more, and become a much more forgiving, loving person.

 

When I was a believer, I agreed with those in my church (and all other believers I encountered) that homosexuality was wrong. I never "bashed" anyone, nor was I openly mean to anyone, but I kept my distance from homosexuals and debated a few about their deviant lifestyle.

 

Then, as my disbelief grew, I began to see that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality at all. What do I care what they do behind closed doors? Why would god care (I know, he does, you don't need to quote the scripture)?

 

I am now good friends with quite a few homosexuals--men and women--and not only are they awesome people, I learn a lot from them. I don't even think about who they are sleeping with, nor should I. My life is better for their being in it, and that would not have happened if I still believed as you do.

Is every sexual act behind doors OK?

 

By the way I didn't mean anyone is less than others because of their sexual behavious. It is the lust offend God. People who pursue lust rather than love will go to hell. Seems you are a friend who would say "you can do whatever you want to do".

[Love Hurts]

Blood sacrifice to appease an imaginary being is not quite the same as eating protein for nourishment is it?

 

Now big game "hunters" - "hunting" for trophies - possibly closer. But they are "hunting" to gain something tangible.

 

Blood sacrifice is to please an imaginary being. Nothing tangible comes from it. The people who take anything away are the people involved in the sacrifice and then what they take away are delusions.

 

Nope not the same thing as a barbeque. I've been to those and there has never been one like that.

 

 

Hmmm yet another link with Santa. Leaving cookies and milk out as an offering...

 

I voice that Santa should be followed as the new God.

 

He is jolly and fat. He is omniscient. He gives people presents and all you have to do is be nice.

 

He only gives you coal when you are naughty and he can travel the world stopping at every house in an evening.

 

Yep. Much better version of God.

 

And there is just as much evidence that he exists.

 

 

God is above us… we are His creation…

He desired an animal sacrificed on an altar..

 

You desire a steak dinner a hamburger or a gyro.

 

No matter which way you cut this animal its dead meat.

The diff is:

 

if its for God; its wrong..

It its for you; its righteous.

 

Do you know how that reads?

As though you are selfish. Its all about you.

[Love Hurts]

Apparently not. Christians in the Sudan are tortured, raped, murdered and sold into slavery all the time. It is happening right now. Where is god? He is supposed to be defending them, right?

 

Adding to our inspiration!!!!!!

 

 

Increased persecution of true Christians:

 

Mat.24:9,10 Ye shall be hated of all nations...many be offended

 

Lk.21:16,17 Ye shall be betrayed...& some of you...put to death

 

 

Luke 21:28

And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

 

Praise Jesus !!! Sooooon very soon we go!

[Moose]

All of the hominid evidence we have shows that we share a common ancestor with apes. Nobody in biology or paleontology disputes this. Are you saying you agree with them? Also, in science you don't EVER take someone's word for it. I have seen the evidence, too, and I agree with them.

No, I don't agree with them. I will say that they've learned alot, but they don't have it all together, nor will they ever have it all together.

 

That's precisely why I don't bother filling my head with it. (I'm sure this is one of my faults in your eyes, but I can live with that).

The more outlandish the claim, the great evidence is needed to determine its validity.

This is so true! I'm with you 100%. Let's just agree that I've seen, and experienced all of the evidence I need to believe what I believe.....

 

Just because it doesn't jive with your experience, or your knowledge of things of this world doesn't mean we can't live in it together. Sure, we'll always challenge each other.......but let's not kill ourselves here.....

That's because biology shows the Biblical account of Creation to be false. Even a cursory understanding of biology demonstrates that.

Again, I'll say that science, (biology included), is an ever changing process that is too inconsistant for me, (personally), to agree with.

 

You may have all of the evidence in the world, and I can sit and let you present it to me, but I guarentee you, at the end of that presentation, I will leave that room in more awe of God's wisdom and creation than before.

Then why did god command that it be done? Does god command people do meaningless rituals for fun?

I don't claim to know why God does everything. But when I read Lev. in it's context, I feel He had them do this to put the people's minds at ease.

Jesus said, "Follow all my father's commandments, sell all your belongings, and follow me, and you will be amongst the saved." He says that five times, at least. Yet nobody does it. And while whether or not it is feasible to follow all the commandments or not is debatable, there are certainly commandments that you can follow that you don't--namely the whole thing about giving all your stuff away.

5 times? I know of three times, and all three times He was talking to the same man. The man asked Him, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

 

And the reason Christ said these words, ("to be perfect go and sell all of your belongings.....etc"), to THAT one man is because Christ knew that man's heart, and what that man wasn't willing to let go of.

 

Mind you, Christ also said this while He was still alive. He didn't tell the man to go sacrifice the best of his flock, or sprinkle blood on his rooftop, or even to do the hokey pokey and shake all about. All the man had to do is let go of everything concerning himself, and follow Christ......that's it....

 

Now that Christ has been crucified, and raised from the dead, the total attoinment for man's sins, past present and future has been paid once and for all, in full.......man just has to choose whether or not he/she wants to be on the list of those Christ paid for. The new covenant.

 

We don't have to sell anything. We don't have to sacrifice anything. We don't have to do the hokey pokey......

Too bad he values what we think above what we do

He values what we feel, in all that we do.

[Topper]

I also have to ask what is with God and Male genitalia? He demands circumcision. He even threatens to kill Moses unless he circumcised he Son. Mose's wife an Egyptian saves moses from Gods wrath by cutting the foreskin with a sharp rock. God was so keen on Circumsision that he was willing to kill his greatest Prophet, yet years later ST Pual says he hasa vision and god tells him Circumsion does not matter anymore?

Also in The OT There are couple of reference to holding your masters testicles and swearing before God. Seems as if this is a very sacred Oath. I'm glad we no long have to use that oath. I can just see doing that in a court of law. It's OK for a Israelite to rape a woman that is from foreign tribe. So rape was OK as long as she is not an Israelite. If a Woman is raped and does not scream loud enough she is to be stoned to death. Nothing is said about punishment for the rapist. A man can have sex with an unmarried woman as long as he then marries her. The father of a bride must show that his daughter was a virgin on her wedding night by producing a bloody sheet from the bed. If he can't prove she wasa virgin then both he and she can be stoned to death.

Also there is another passage that Moses and his Army go to battle and Kill every last male pulse Kill all the woman who are not virgins, then take all the virgins to do with as they please right down to the sucklings. This would mean a child of 2 or 3. Is this child rape commanded by God?

There are a few passages where 1st cousins marry 1st cousins and wives give servants to their husbands to have sex with. Some were "righteous" men in Gods eye. Of course we have David who had many wives and still lusted after another mans wife, has her husband killed.

there are rules for cleaning up sperm. God does not like it if you don't get your dead brothers wife pregnant. I hope my Brother lives for a long , long time. My sister in law is scary.

These are just a few of the things I found.

[Topper]

Moose,

Jesus also said it will be easier for a Camel to pass though the eye of a needle then a for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. There is nothing said that once I die on the cross you get a free pass.

There are also some contradicting passages on faith and works. Some say works without faith don't count and others say faith alone doesn't count without good works.

There are some Saints that are held up as good examples of avoiding sexual sin by castrating themselves. Nobody seems to be horrified by this self mutilation. Paul also tells people not to get married. But then he says it is better to get married then to give into to lust. According to Paul god does ask for some as you say hokey pokey

[Moose]

Topper,

 

It's hard to respond to your posts because you take just about everything you've read out of context. And I've told you this before.

 

I bet you actually think Christ was talking about an actual needle, (that you sew with), when you read that too didn't you?

[sb129]

Yes Moose, but I keep asking you how you KNOW what the context IS.

 

You don't. Its just an interpretation that your church follows.

[Moose]

Yes Moose, but I keep asking you how you KNOW what the context IS.

 

You don't. Its just an interpretation that your church follows.

BY STUDYING!!! Duh.....

[sb129]

You are reading the same stuff that Topper is referring to.

 

So its just TWO different INTERPRETATIONS.

 

DUH.

 

Anyway atheists and other people, i am away for a few weeks.

 

Moai and IG, don't let the side down.

 

Kia kaha everyone, whatever your beliefs may be!!

[Topper]

I have seen nothing that would indicate that Jesus was not talking about an actual needle. I have only seen what some other so call teachers have told me what it means.

I have also been told that Jesus did not mean what he said with the sermon on the mound. I was told that, it needs to be put into context and I need to studied to get the real meaning behind the words. So who do you believe? each Chruch and denomination seems to put their own spin on the Bible. A southern Baptist will tell you Jesus did not turn water to wine. It was really grape juice or something else. All will focus on one point or another that proves they are right. I'm a student of history. I read a great many sources. I

Jesus is very consistent in his teachings on serving two masters either God or Money. You sighted the story of the young man who would not give up his wealth to follow Jesus. The only violent act that was ever recorded was Jesus chasing the money changers out of the temple.

[Island Girl]

Its all about you.

 

It IS all about me.

 

You're right.

 

It's MY life. I have to live it.

 

I choose to do so and govern my own path. I don't put anyone else's words in my mouth.

 

I don't blame some ridiculous imaginary being - Satan - evil - what have you - for my problems or even poor circumstance for it is just that.

 

You run around playing the blame / praise game in the name of religion.

 

You can't even speak for yourself.

 

------------------

 

If you're going to believe in some imaginary being why not take up Santa?

 

At least he shows up once a year and brings presents.

 

When was the last time your God visited you? Oh yeah. Hmmmm. Not even rumors of him being about in the last couple of thousand years right?

 

See! Santa's a better choice for you really.

 

------------------

 

By the way LH

 

since you like the idea of sacrifice so much and liken it to a barbeque -

 

What of your God forcing people to cannibalism?

 

That is bolded so you won't just ignore it like you usually do. And I hope you directly address it.

[Storyrider]

I have also been told that Jesus did not mean what he said with the sermon on the mound.

 

Are you sure that wasn't Babe Ruth?

 

Anyway, this is going to seem like an obvious statement. But the Bible is a work of literature whether you think it is inspired by God or not. It is a huge work of literature, like a volume of Shakespeare or the like. As such, of course it contains contradictions and is subject to interpretation. But there are some interpretations that are more sympathetic to its context than others. If we take Shakespeare out of context and give his plays a Marxist slant, we can have some fun and play games with it, but it is not really Shakespeare, it is something else. So to be fair to the writers of the bible, knowing the history, knowing the culture that it comes from, knowing the moral climate that it emerges from, all those things make a fair interpretation more possible.

 

Was it this current thread in which Moai was referring to the "cure" or cleansing ritual for leprosy? It is possible that this ritual was intended to simply give people an action to do and make them feel better when there really isn't anything one can do. (Kind of like we have funerals nowadays. It doesn't bring the dead back. It is to give us something to do.) Since we have things to do for leprosy now that are more scientifically based, this cleansing ritual is now obsolete.

 

Now, if we could suspend disbelief for a minute and imagine that the bible is divinely inspired, isn't it possible that God provided this layered and complex body of literature because different passages are intended for different audiences in history.

 

Moai said in the faith thread that God would/should provide a text that is direct, simple, and impossible to misinterpret. The bible can be described as such in places, in the ten commandments, for instance. But in other places the bible is more useful when it is subject to interpretation. It allows for multifaceted meanings that can work for a number of different situations, just as Shakespeare's allusions were sometimes five fold in one simple passage.

 

But anyway, the jubilies are another example of something proscribed in the bible that we don't do anymore. Why? Is it proof that the bible is self contradictory and wrong? Or could it be that we are wrong and we should reinstitute the jubilies. Or maybe it was for that time and not this time.

[Love Hurts]

It IS all about me.

 

You're right.

 

It's MY life. I have to live it.

 

I choose to do so and govern my own path. I don't put anyone else's words in my mouth.

 

I don't blame some ridiculous imaginary being - Satan - evil - what have you - for my problems or even poor circumstance for it is just that.

 

You run around playing the blame / praise game in the name of religion.

 

You can't even speak for yourself.

 

------------------

 

If you're going to believe in some imaginary being why not take up Santa?

 

At least he shows up once a year and brings presents.

 

When was the last time your God visited you? Oh yeah. Hmmmm. Not even rumors of him being about in the last couple of thousand years right?

 

See! Santa's a better choice for you really.

 

------------------

 

By the way LH

 

since you like the idea of sacrifice so much and liken it to a barbeque -

 

What of your God forcing people to cannibalism?

 

That is bolded so you won't just ignore it like you usually do. And I hope you directly address it.

 

 

You Selectively reached a conclusion ‘excluding ‘ - Free will

 

Yet You claim its your life and you have to live it. = Free will

 

You are contradicting yourself.

[Topper]

Storyrider, You make some good points. If you look at the Bible as inspired writing it becomes different text. The Problem is that those that say this is the word of God written by God. That would mean it can't not be wrong That every last word in it is true. Most Born again Christians rely King James Bible. Roman Catholics rely on another version that has more books then the King James Bible. Now you have to decide what bible you are talking about. so far I have uncovered 8 different Jewish and Christian Bibles. Within that that 8 there are different interpretations of those books. They all have different Books and some have passes that are different from other versions of the Bible. So who has the right Bible? Not only can't Christians agree on The Bible They can't even agree on what some of the Passages mean. You sight the Ten commandments. I have found a lot of different variations and interpretations of those 10 simple rules. The Jewish bible list the commandments in a different order some of the wording is different and brings with it a slightly different meaning to the words. Take the word "adultery" as one example. does it mean sex outside of marriage for everyone? In the ancient Hebrew language it implies that this only applies to woman. In other words it is OK for men to have sex outside of marriage but not a woman. In fact one of the laws is that if a man has sex with an unmarried woman he has to marry her. If a woman is raped if she does not scream loud enough she is to be stoned to death. Nothing is said about a punishment for the man. So there was sex outside of Marriage. In some other passages God actually commands the Israelites to commit rape But they can only rape virgins. The woman who have Known men must be killed.

It is one thing to have a Book that is inspired by Faith and God and another if it is the absolute final word of God. If it is the absolute word i can find Passages after passages to condone Rape, Slavery, Incest, Polygamy. Pluse a host of other things that we now find socially repulsive.

[Storyrider]

They all have different Books and some have passes that are different from other versions of the Bible. So who has the right Bible? Not only can't Christians agree on The Bible They can't even agree on what some of the Passages mean.

 

Of course. And God may never come down out of the sky and tell us which interpretation is the closest. But that doesn't mean that some aren't closer than others.

 

You sight the Ten commandments. I have found a lot of different variations and interpretations of those 10 simple rules. The Jewish bible list the commandments in a different order some of the wording is different and brings with it a slightly different meaning to the words.

 

The Jewish ten commandments do list things with a different emphasis and order. This Wikipedia entree has a cool table that shows exactly how.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_commandments

 

 

Take the word "adultery" as one example. does it mean sex outside of marriage for everyone? In the ancient Hebrew language it implies that this only applies to woman. In other words it is OK for men to have sex outside of marriage but not a woman. In fact one of the laws is that if a man has sex with an unmarried woman he has to marry her. If a woman is raped if she does not scream loud enough she is to be stoned to death. Nothing is said about a punishment for the man. So there was sex outside of Marriage. In some other passages God actually commands the Israelites to commit rape But they can only rape virgins. The woman who have Known men must be killed.

 

Thanks for pointing this out. I'll look into it, especially the rape part. I know that some of the instructions for warring against idolatrous nations were very, very harsh. I think in some situations they are instructed to kill every living creature, even the cattle. One gets a definite sense that the goal was to obliterate idolatry and make way for monotheism, almost at any cost. Did the Hebrews have to marry the virgins they raped in war? Was this seen as another way of proliferating monotheism?

[Island Girl]

You Selectively reached a conclusion ‘excluding ‘ - Free will

 

Yet You claim its your life and you have to live it. = Free will

 

You are contradicting yourself.

 

I never contradicted myself.

 

It is my life.

 

By own free will I make choices.

 

I will state it AGAIN - read more slowly this time - perhaps that was the problem - I'd like to think you do not suffer from a lack of reading comprehension

 

I don't blame some imaginary being for bad things that happen or circumstances I may find myself in -- what you would attribute to Satan or demons.

 

And I take all of the credit for my choices that work out -- not attributing those times or choices to some kind of divine intervention.

 

That is the EXACT same thing I said previously.

 

If you don't know what a word means you shouldn't use it.

 

And again you completely ignored a question posed specifically for you in the same thread you quoted.

 

Afraid are we? Bah ha ha....