Sufferings is result of our sins?

[pricillia]

Roger that.

 

 

who is Rodger?

[RichC]

it seems to consist of believers and people who either are sceptical or outright hate religion throwing stones. IF I wanted to respond it would take entirely too much time to cover all the topic areas. What I know is that I believe and have seen its positive effect in my life. And not just the power of positive thinking. I have seen my prayer for others help them. I know when I am going through something trying or bad I do not know why but that, with God's help, I will come out better and stronger on the other side of the problem. There are many things I can't answer or figure out. But that doesn't bother me because I am getting stronger in my faith and stronger in my life. The sceptics and haters will never be convinced and its not my job to convince them. They have their own problems and I will not add to them. To a believer its enough to believe, to the sceptic there can never be enough proof.

[Island Girl]

To a believer its enough to believe, to the sceptic there can never be enough proof.

 

There isn't any "proof" or evidence at all.

 

Not that there isn't "enough". There is none. Big difference.

[RichC]

fine. It is not my responsibility to prove anything to you. I am comfortable with my beliefs. I am sure you are with yours. I am leaving it there.

[pricillia]

fine. It is not my responsibility to prove anything to you. I am comfortable with my beliefs. I am sure you are with yours. I am leaving it there.

 

 

 

That is ok you should be comfortable with your beliefs, and there are so many other beliefs out there.

 

I ask if you were born in a different part of the world you may have different beliefs right?

 

So you can not say that one belief system is better or more right then the other.

 

I asked LH this but did not get an answer so I will ask again.

 

If god created Christians then who created other beings that belive in other faiths?

[Moai]

Is every sexual act behind doors OK?

 

By the way I didn't mean anyone is less than others because of their sexual behavious. It is the lust offend God. People who pursue lust rather than love will go to hell. Seems you are a friend who would say "you can do whatever you want to do".

 

As long as the participants are consenting, yes. And yes, you CAN do whatever you want to do. As long as what you are doing does not harm another person, what's the problem? I think Epicurus figured that out 2,500 years ago, or so.

[Moai]

Adding to our inspiration!!!!!!

 

 

Increased persecution of true Christians:

 

Mat.24:9,10 Ye shall be hated of all nations...many be offended

 

Lk.21:16,17 Ye shall be betrayed...& some of you...put to death

 

 

Luke 21:28

And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

 

Praise Jesus !!! Sooooon very soon we go!

 

No offense, but that is just sick. You are gleeful that other human beings are being tortured and oppressed, simply because it fits with your end-time scenario. I would rather help them not be persecuted any more, even though I am opposed ot their religious beliefs.

 

Why is it that as an atheist I am more compassionate than you--even toward people who believe the same way you do?

[Moai]

No, I don't agree with them. I will say that they've learned alot, but they don't have it all together, nor will they ever have it all together.

 

That's precisely why I don't bother filling my head with it. (I'm sure this is one of my faults in your eyes, but I can live with that).This is so true! I'm with you 100%. Let's just agree that I've seen, and experienced all of the evidence I need to believe what I believe.....

 

Well, they do have it all figured out. We share a common ancestor with apes. In point of fact, we ARE apes. This is a fact.

 

You are correct in that we will probably never have an example of every intermediate form, as we must rely on fossilization to preserve the evidence. The forms we do have show beyond doubt that we are apes. Not only that, genetic evidence shows this to be the case as well.

 

We will continue to discover new species of hominid that we share an ancestor with. Every time we find one, it fits what we expect. That is one of the properties of a good theory--its predictive ability. And lo and behold, the theory we use to explain the fact of evolution holds up every single time.

 

You cannot trace all of your ancestors back even 1,000 years, and yet there you sit. Am I to believe that you did not have ancestors that lived 1,000 years ago because your family tree is incomplete? Of course not. You are obviously there, so you MUST have had living relatives 1,000 years ago. And 5,000 years ago. And 100 million years ago.

 

All life shares a common ancestor.

 

Just because it doesn't jive with your experience, or your knowledge of things of this world doesn't mean we can't live in it together. Sure, we'll always challenge each other.......but let's not kill ourselves here.....Again, I'll say that science, (biology included), is an ever changing process that is too inconsistant for me, (personally), to agree with.

 

Science doesn't change, but the explanations it provides do. That is what is so cool about it. Science is the best tool we have to determine truth, that is to say, the way that the natural world operates.

 

Ages ago when Galileo asserted that the Earth was not the center of the Universe, the Church disagreed, and persecuted him. Now, every church on Earth accepts this as true--because they have to. There is so much evidence that this is the case to say otherwise would be silly.

 

So, the church had to change its position. The Bible remains as written, and the verses that describe the Sun revolving around the Earth are now "metaphorical." Doctrine is not as immutable as some think.

 

Imagine what the world would be like if "god did it" was considered a satisfactory explanation. We would not be having this conversation right now.

 

You may have all of the evidence in the world, and I can sit and let you present it to me, but I guarentee you, at the end of that presentation, I will leave that room in more awe of God's wisdom and creation than before.I don't claim to know why God does everything. But when I read Lev. in it's context, I feel He had them do this to put the people's minds at ease.5 times? I know of three times, and all three times He was talking to the same man. The man asked Him, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

 

Because you have already made your mind up without examining the evidence, which is not only rhetorically weak it is irrational. Interestingly, as I have said, I have mountains and mountains of evidence for my position. However, I am willing to look at further evidence and will modify said position if the evidence warrants it. You, however, just shut you eyes and say, "No, No, No" and call it a day. That is your right, of course.

 

And the reason Christ said these words, ("to be perfect go and sell all of your belongings.....etc"), to THAT one man is because Christ knew that man's heart, and what that man wasn't willing to let go of.

 

Mind you, Christ also said this while He was still alive. He didn't tell the man to go sacrifice the best of his flock, or sprinkle blood on his rooftop, or even to do the hokey pokey and shake all about. All the man had to do is let go of everything concerning himself, and follow Christ......that's it....

 

Yep, like all his material possessions.

 

Now that Christ has been crucified, and raised from the dead, the total attoinment for man's sins, past present and future has been paid once and for all, in full.......man just has to choose whether or not he/she wants to be on the list of those Christ paid for. The new covenant.

 

We don't have to sell anything. We don't have to sacrifice anything. We don't have to do the hokey pokey......He values what we feel, in all that we do.

 

Well, Jesus disagrees with you:

Mark 10:

17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” 21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

[RichC]

Why can't you answer your own question? There are so many resources out there and adhering to a belief system or religion is an extemely personal thing. I believe because I underwent a conversion experience. My stance is Christ is best, but I cannot make you belive anything. It has always been a choice for you to excercize. It takes work but don't you think its worth it? Don't go on what someone else says about something that is so personal. You have to find your own way.

[pricillia]

Why can't you answer your own question? There are so many resources out there and adhering to a belief system or religion is an extemely personal thing. I believe because I underwent a conversion experience. My stance is Christ is best, but I cannot make you belive anything. It has always been a choice for you to excercize. It takes work but don't you think its worth it? Don't go on what someone else says about something that is so personal. You have to find your own way.

 

 

Exactly my point thanks for clarifying. And may I add there is not only one right way.

[Island Girl]

It takes work but don't you think its worth it?

 

Actually it takes no work or effort at all what so ever.

 

You just make up your mind to believe in what ever it is and sail along not paying attention to what ever contrary evidence comes across your path.

 

See - there is no "work" or effort to it.

 

Believing in imaginary beings and that there is a magical destiny called Heaven where everything is going to be perfect is easy.

[pricillia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

It takes work but don't you think its worth it?

 

Actually it takes no work or effort at all what so ever.

 

You just make up your mind to believe in what ever it is and sail along not paying attention to what ever contrary evidence comes across your path.

 

See - there is no "work" or effort to it.

 

Believing in imaginary beings and that there is a magical destiny called Heaven where everything is going to be perfect is easy.

(end quote from Island girl)

 

 

 

 

 

I think that if you are going to believe in something it takes work to continue to do so even if there is evidence to the contrary.

 

as well as taking work to do the right thing, as doing the right thing is somtimes the most difficult thing to actually do.

 

It takes strength support and faith in yourself, that it can be done.

 

But I also believe that one needs to not only think of themselves but others as well, freinds, family, and one's faith is an important part of life.

 

but I have said it over and over again, there is no one right way to think when it comes to God.

 

To some he does not exist, that does not mean that they will not live a good life or if there is a after life that does not mean they are destined to hell.

[RichC]

What your saying is that you don't believe in anything at all. How can your beliefs be rooted in more than one system? How deeply will your beliefs be held. Does the person just make it up as they go along? There is alot of talk about good on this thread but what is good? The utlitarian definition? Christian? Islamic? You cannot be both utilitarian and Christian. Or Islamic and stoic. Do you just want to be good? If you care about what you believe I have generally found people want to work at knowing the belief system, practising it and and why knowing why they believe what they believe.

[RichC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

It takes work but don't you think its worth it?

 

Actually it takes no work or effort at all what so ever.

 

You just make up your mind to believe in what ever it is and sail along not paying attention to what ever contrary evidence comes across your path.

 

See - there is no "work" or effort to it.

 

Believing in imaginary beings and that there is a magical destiny called Heaven where everything is going to be perfect is easy.

(end quote from Island girl)

 

 

 

 

 

I think that if you are going to believe in something it takes work to continue to do so even if there is evidence to the contrary.

 

as well as taking work to do the right thing, as doing the right thing is somtimes the most difficult thing to actually do.

 

It takes strength support and faith in yourself, that it can be done.

 

But I also believe that one needs to not only think of themselves but others as well, freinds, family, and one's faith is an important part of life.

 

but I have said it over and over again, there is no one right way to think when it comes to God.

 

To some he does not exist, that does not mean that they will not live a good life or if there is a after life that does not mean they are destined to hell.

 

But faith in what? Yourself? And which God? Islamic? Budhist? What are the God's standards for your life? And if you screw up what's the consequences?

 

I'm not trying to be insulting but what I see is a vague conception of "something" that you may follow if you like it. If you go by the cafeteria method. picking and choosing what to take and leave then it seems the religion or system is created by you, only answerable to you.

[Island Girl]

But I also believe that one needs to not only think of themselves but others as well, freinds, family, and one's faith is an important part of life.

 

To some he does not exist, that does not mean that they will not live a good life or if there is a after life that does not mean they are destined to hell.

 

Probably the hardest thing I have ever done is coming to the realization that there is no God or Heaven and letting go of my faith that I was brought up believing.

 

It took a long time and it happened in stages.

 

The reason it was so hard to let go of?

 

The fear that there wasn't anything after this. That life didn't go on. That I would cease to exist when I died. And that everyone does.

 

The fact that I am NOT going to see my loved ones again. That there is nothing afterward.

 

That was hard to let go of.

 

But the best part?!

 

I now value each moment that I spend with them good and bad.

 

And it means more to me to come to an understanding of each other - our differences and similarities - and acceptance of all of those.

 

I value people - who they actually are - more. All people. And I now can get to know them as flawed human beings who are so biologically and personally so complex.

 

I have never held to racial divides in any way but now I see each one individually with out any prejudices of them being a sinner because they are gay, Islamic, Hindu, etc.

 

Because of that my world has become brightened. The group of friends I have assembled along the way are wonderfully diverse. I enjoy my time spent with them and it is so incredibly rewarding.

 

My family has become more important.

 

I have a whole new perspective on life.

 

And that gives me a new perspective of death that is difficult to wrestle with at times.

 

I know there is no seeing each other again.

 

And, yes, it makes it hard sometimes to get so close to other people because you know this is all there is.

 

But even though it is hard I do it anyway because there is so much joy to here on Earth, together, now.

[lonelybird]

 

embrace your demons that is part of who you are, you can not run from them nor hide from them, you can only learn to live with them, sometimes becoming better from it.

 

Naaaaaaaaaaaa, I wouldn't embrace demons, they are under my feet, or they flee from me. I only need to learn how to live with Holy Spirit, and led by Holy Spirit, not flesh:laugh:

[lonelybird]

But I do not know how you got onto the death subject from my post. I was talking about living not dying...

 

I just think that you are afraid of understanding another way of thinking, and if someone is not Christian and does not practice the way you do, you may not see the good in them, or understand them as another human being for that matter.

 

LH, can you talk about other ethnic backgrounds or other religions. Did God only create Christians... if so where did everyone else come from. I do not think you have a broad viewpoint when it comes to the world, just a Christian viewpoint.

 

Would you treat someone of another faith differently then you would treat a Chrisitan brother or sister.?

I would look others as they are still living in darkness. So they need lights. but they fear lights, because lights can expose their secret deeds in the darkness, they don't want to know what they did is wrong. the more light, the more expose, that's why they don't like light and deny God. Because God is all light, no darkness in Him. That's why only good works cannot take us into heaven, not enough

 

But fear not, Lord Jesus died for our sinns. If without Him, none of us can endure that kind of light from God. We only need to believe in Jesus Christ and appreciate what He did for us, light bring us repentance. and God is forgiving

 

You don't understand these yet, because you do NOT have light in your heart yet. relatively good in person's opinion is still not "righteousness" in God's eyes.

[lonelybird]

Yep -- you're God that you "praise". Totally gross.

 

 

 

You don't know the whole book then. You read certain passages over and over - focusing on what you want it to say -- what you WISH it to say but you do not read it over and over cover to cover.

 

Oh yeah. That is surprising. -- I am of course being facetious.

 

 

 

It is your God commanding people to eat their own children!

 

Whatever the reason! You are justifying how incredibly horrible that is because He must have some reason for it? Are you crazy?

 

-- And what of you saying that children are innocent?

 

It doesn't seem to matter at all here.

 

Not that it really does. Your God that you praise as being such a just and wonderful FAIR GOD -- is exactly the opposite.

 

No matter what the reason -- you would think it is FAIR or JUST that CHILDREN are served up as dinner to their parents?!!

 

Again - you must really admire Hitler and Saddam.

 

They used the same excuses your God did for the same actions.

 

 

 

Curse? This was judgment and punishment - not a curse.

 

And Saddam and Hitler did the exact same things in the same context.

 

In fact -- I don't know of those two forcing people to EAT their children.

 

That is something that was even beyond them.

 

So you're God goes one better at the grossness factor and total complete hypocritical bulls**t factor.

 

"We are all God's children and He loves us all because He created us."

 

Well, I know my mother would never want to see me eating other human being as punishment or recourse.

 

But apparently your God does so -- even seeming to enjoy the ability to make others do so.

 

Sick.

 

Just Sick.

 

This is the God you worship. The one you want to spend eternity with.

 

Oh yeah -- I want to bask in His presence praising Him forever. -- NOT!

You are afraid because you are those people who God don't like. But still you can repent and live

[Moai]

What your saying is that you don't believe in anything at all.

 

No, what she is saying (and I agree) is that there is no such thing as a "god." You need not replace superstition with anything, for one thing, and it does not follow that if you don't think that gods exist that you don't believe in anything. I believe that rational thought and science are by far the best tools we have to understand our world and improve life for those that inhabit it. I believe that because that is what all of the evidence suggests.

 

How can your beliefs be rooted in more than one system? How deeply will your beliefs be held. Does the person just make it up as they go along? There is alot of talk about good on this thread but what is good? The utlitarian definition? Christian? Islamic? You cannot be both utilitarian and Christian. Or Islamic and stoic. Do you just want to be good? If you care about what you believe I have generally found people want to work at knowing the belief system, practising it and and why knowing why they believe what they believe.

 

All god belief systems are equally imaginary. Once that reality is accepted, there is no belief system that follows. Atheism is not a dogmatic belief system with rules of behavior or notions of morality. It is simply the idea that there are no gods. And that's it.

 

You don't ask someone who doesn't believe in astrology what they replaced that belief with, do you? Why is there no term like "a-astrologist?" God has just as much evidence for his existence as does astrology.

 

Being good is usually defined culturally, at least in its common meaning.

[lonelybird]

That explains it.

 

Mindless dribble and crap on all the time - in the background -- always reinforcing your subscription to the blind - truly blind - world of "believing" and having faith that He really exists.

 

I bet you couldn't go one week without hearing or reading about God for fear that He really DOESN'T exist and that we are all here, right here, and that this is it.

 

That is the FEAR you have - that He doesn't exist and that there is NOTHING after this life.

 

Keep holding on. It doesn't make it so. Oh but you already know that!

We have healthy fear for God like we fear our loving parents. Loving parents' rules keep us in right track, but we know these rules are out of LOVE:) . It is better fear God now than totally blind and burning in hell forever!!!!!

[lonelybird]

God didn't get under my skin RichC. Certain "believers" have.

 

I have argued from scripture to which it has been largely ignored by LH -- because inconsistencies etc. well these are the things she does not want to address.

 

Perhaps you should put your best effort out there.

 

Go back to the beginning of the thread -- read all of it and respond to those things which she can't.

 

All of it - including what Moai, Topper and B4R have posted.

 

It should be enlightening for us all considering your posts already.

 

The invitation is out there...now what will you do?

Be fair. You did personal attack and belittle. I don't know if you grow up a bad enviroment or what? but I continue to tell myself "hurting people hurt others". Actually there is a better way of life

[Moai]

You are afraid because you are those people who God don't like. But still you can repent and live

 

You do not worship Thor. Are you not afraid? Do you not tremble in fear of His Mighty Hammer?

 

The fact is you are afraid, not me (or any atheist for that matter.) At some point you were terrified that you would face some horrible punishment after death, and found a belief system that assuages that fear. Your belief is maintained because that fear is always there, and you praise and worship to reinforce what you hope (so much you have convinced yourself of its truth) is true.

 

I have no such fear. There is no doubt in my mind that there is no Heaven, no Hell, no demons, no Satan, and no Jesus or Holy Spirit. I do not fear eternal punishment whatsoever, so I have no need of such a superstition.

 

You don't worship Allah, or Vishnu, or Shiva, or Zeus, or Thor (PBUH), right? And there is no doubt in your mind that those gods are false, is there? Well, I just apply that same doubt to your god. You don't lose any sleep worrying about Zeus, right? I don't lose any sleep over Jesus. And you are just as much of an atheist as I am in those cases, I just apply that thinking to one more god than you.

 

Are you afraid that Thor doesn't like you, and that's why you don't accept him? Just believe, and perform bravely in battle and the rewards of Valhalla will be yours. Its easy. Thor protects the brave and strong, and evil trembles before His Mighty Hammer! All hail Thor!!!

[lonelybird]

That is ok you should be comfortable with your beliefs, and there are so many other beliefs out there.

 

I ask if you were born in a different part of the world you may have different beliefs right?

 

So you can not say that one belief system is better or more right then the other.

 

I asked LH this but did not get an answer so I will ask again.

 

If god created Christians then who created other beings that belive in other faiths?

Other religions .....I said many times. Holy Spirit guided me and other people to God to Jesus. Didn't God send his people to tell you about the light? Didn't God tell you what is right to do and what isn't? isn't the soul salvation good enough for you? God is justice, He will judge according to the light the people exposed to. I said God, I mean real God, not bunch of religious systems, different ideas. you can choose different ideas. But you cannot choose God, God is there, is real. there is no different gods. Only one God who creat everything.

[Moai]

Given the title of this thread, I thought I would address the issue.

 

Suffering is not caused because of sin. Such an idea is repugnant to thinking rational, compassionate people.

 

People suffer because of sickness. Most sickness is caused by bacteria, viri, or inherited propensity, like Multiple Sclerosis.

 

Why do these things exist? Because bacteria mutate. Viri mutate. Genes mutate. Everything that is self-replicating is subject to mutation. And what benefits one organism can often be detrimental to another. That is the way life works, there is no reason behind it--beyond it being efficient. Environmental pressure exerts itself on organisms, whether the environment is in your own body or in the lake in the mountains.

 

What about birth defects? Why are some people born like this: http://birth_defects.tripod.com/

 

and others born like this:

http://www.fresh99.com/news-anchor-melissa-theuriau.htm

 

The fact is: no reason. There is no reason at all. Genes combine randomly, and sometimes they combine and create something wonderfully beautiful, and other times tragically deformed and unviable. That is the nature of mutation--and most mutations are neutral or bad. 1 in every 5,000 live births results in a child with Down's Syndrome.

 

Most people tend more toward the "Melissa" side of things than the horrors I posted, but the fact remains that reproducing does not, and cannot, produce clones. Genetic material is recombined, and that's what you get.

 

I realize that this doesn't answer the question of "why". To ask why is to miss the point. For the vast majority of life on this planet it is brutal, painful, and short. It must be this way. There are only a finite amount of resources, and the organisms that possess the attributes that aid in their competing for said resources will reproduce. As that occurs, mistakes in genetic recombination will occur. Rarely, these mistakes prove beneficial, but as I stated above most of the time they are neutral or harmful.

 

To assert that God, in order to punish mankind for some mistake in the ancient past chooses to have some children born with horrible deformity and pain is sick. No moral being could do such a thing. To say that the children in the deformity photos were sinful at the point of conception is perverse and callous. If I could stop birth defects tomorrow I would do it, sinful nature of man or not. No infant deserves that kind of suffering. The fact is we are working at stopping many forms of birth defects, and I hope that one day many of these afflictions will be eliminated. Prayer hasn't worked, and will not work, so I am glad that there are doctors out there actually doing something about it...

 

It has also been suggested that the child is given a particular problem to test the faith of the parents, or because of some spiritual journey/learning experience or whatever. This is a bankrupt position as well. I have posted this before, but if I were to kidnap a young child or infant and torture it to test the parents somehow or to teach them some sort of spiritual lesson, I would be called one of the most evil people who ever lived--and rightly so. There is no moral position that can defend such behavior. Yet there are those who suggest that that is EXACTLY what god does (if suffering results from sin), and when such actions are questioned, the response is, "it's god's will and you cannot understand his godly plan, but must trust that it is good and for the best."

 

Poppycock. It amazes me that anyone would think that such nonsense is a reasonable answer, or make such tortured rhetorical statements to support their superstition.

 

The concept of punishing the son for the crimes of the father has been rejected by every civilized society on Earth. The Bible even says that such is wrong. And yet the very same Bible suggests that God does exactly that. "Why did Jesus need to die on the cross? Because all men are sinful? Why are all men sinful? Because Adam disobeyed god, and the punishment for that is suffering, and death while on Earth and eternal torment afterward. But wait, there is good news! All you have to do is believe in a certain way and then you get a pass on the eternal torment part of it. It will do nothing to prevent sickness and your eventual death, but hey! It's something.

 

It just doesn't wash. Given the suffering that occurs on Earth every day for most people you'd think that everyone would get to Heaven right off--seeing as their only sin was being born.

 

Most people have lied, cheated at a card game, or done something that benefited them at the detriment of someone else. Or many other things that are considered "sins." It is absolutely true that people can be callous at times, selfish, and just plain bad.

 

Do you think that the average person deserves eternal torment because of this? How can that possibly make sense to anyone? If I told you that I have a guy at my house who stole some cookies when he was 11 and so I was going to boil him in oil you'd call the cops and have me arrested, right? Being boiled in oil is far too severe a punishment for stealing cookies. Add all the sins up of your average person and they don't deserve to be even DIPPED in boiling oil. There are some people I could think of that I'd like to see boiled in oil, but even then it would just be a painful death and it would be over. I certainly wouldn't make it last forever. But God does. In fact, some infants are born with such horrible defects that modern medicine can only keep them alive for a few hours, and once they are dead it's off to hell with them, because of their (inherited) sinful nature.

 

Is it any wonder that thinking people consider such ideas as silly, irrational, and disgusting?

 

The fact is that the Universe is indifferent to you. Whether you live or die, are in pain or are experiencing pleasure is of no consequence. When you get sick it is nothing personal or punishment for some prior bad act, it is because as a biological organism you will get sick. People who drive cars will make mistakes and crash and become permanently disabled or die, and even kill others. Work around complex, dangerous machines and there will be accidents. Swim in the ocean and a shark might bite you. Eat too much butter and your arteries will clog--or eat a healthy diet and they will clog, if you are genetically predisposed to it. And on and on, no rhyme or reason, no reward or punishment.

 

The "suffering is punishment for sin" was probably a decent explanation for people who had no idea what a germ was, and didn't understand reproduction the way we do--no understandnig of basic reality, actually. But now we do understand it, and it is time we shed ourselves of these irrational superstitions that restrain us.

[Moai]

Other religions .....I said many times. Holy Spirit guided me and other people to God to Jesus. Didn't God send his people to tell you about the light? Didn't God tell you what is right to do and what isn't? isn't the soul salvation good enough for you?

 

Soul salvation is meaningless to me. It is a silly idea, since there is no evidence that we even have souls. Postulating what happens to something that probably doesn't exist is a waste of precious energy.

God is justice, He will judge according to the light the people exposed to. I said God, I mean real God, not bunch of religious systems, different ideas. you can choose different ideas. But you cannot choose God, God is there, is real. there is no different gods. Only one God who creat everything.

 

Nope. The god described in your Bible is not just, nor are the central tenets of your faith. It is great that you think that both are true, but that does not make it so.

 

Your god is just another religious system. You don't think so because you think it is real, but so do believers in all the others. Most of them have faith healings, protection and answered prayer as their evidence, too.

 

And I can most certainly choose god, because demonstrably he is NOT there. First, show some evidence that there is a god in the first place, and then show that said god is the one you believe in. Nobody has ever been able to do that, ever. And they never will, because god doesn't exist.

 

And you technically believe in four gods, not one. You've got Jesus, Jehovah, the Holy Spirit, and Satan. There are demi-gods in the form of angels and demons, too. You have just taken pagan ideas, pressed them together, and added your own nomenclature. Other than that, it is nothing new, nor any more powerful than any of the other gods that are long since dead. And your religion will die out one day, too. it is inevitable.

 

That day may actually be a lot sooner than you realize, as Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet. I could see that in the next 100 years Christianity will be seen as a fringe activity practiced by the nutty, the way astrology is today. Of course, in its wake it will have left some beautiful architecture and a lot of books based on an unprovable assumption, but that's it. Jesus will join all the other gods that reside in the dustbin of history.

 

Ironically, atheism and rationality will still be going strong, as they existed long before your religion and will certainly exist long after. One day, I hope, that will be all that's left.