Sufferings is result of our sins?

[RichC]

Do you spend so much time trying to refute religion? It must really get under your skin that people do not follow your belief system. You sure spend alot of time trying to convert us. IF you don't believe it fine. I'm not trying to convert you. Every persons belief's are what they have to work out. And no, atheism is the new kid on the block. Most people couldn't concieve of a world without something bigger than them. Where did you get that info? If you don't like religion fine but don't start throwing rocks at me because I don't agree with you. You sure are angry at religious people. What did they do to you?

[lonelybird]

You do not worship Thor. Are you not afraid? Do you not tremble in fear of His Mighty Hammer?

 

The fact is you are afraid, not me (or any atheist for that matter.) At some point you were terrified that you would face some horrible punishment after death, and found a belief system that assuages that fear. Your belief is maintained because that fear is always there, and you praise and worship to reinforce what you hope (so much you have convinced yourself of its truth) is true.

 

I have no such fear. There is no doubt in my mind that there is no Heaven, no Hell, no demons, no Satan, and no Jesus or Holy Spirit. I do not fear eternal punishment whatsoever, so I have no need of such a superstition.

 

You don't worship Allah, or Vishnu, or Shiva, or Zeus, or Thor (PBUH), right? And there is no doubt in your mind that those gods are false, is there? Well, I just apply that same doubt to your god. You don't lose any sleep worrying about Zeus, right? I don't lose any sleep over Jesus. And you are just as much of an atheist as I am in those cases, I just apply that thinking to one more god than you.

 

Are you afraid that Thor doesn't like you, and that's why you don't accept him? Just believe, and perform bravely in battle and the rewards of Valhalla will be yours. Its easy. Thor protects the brave and strong, and evil trembles before His Mighty Hammer! All hail Thor!!!

hopeless, unbelief..........dodge!

[Moai]

Do you spend so much time trying to refute religion?

 

Because I think that religion is dangerous and harmful.

 

It must really get under your skin that people do not follow your belief system. You sure spend alot of time trying to convert us. IF you don't believe it fine. I'm not trying to convert you.

 

You may not be trying to convert me, but certainly others are. And yes, I do spend my free time engaging in debate in an effort to demonstrate that belief is supernatural god-beings is harmful and unnecessary. I would not be a very good person if I saw someone doing something that was bad for them and did nothing.

 

Every persons belief's are what they have to work out

 

That is certainly true. But all beliefs come from somewhere. You did not just stumble upon your belief in Christ, did you? SOmebody told you about it, you read about it and what others think, and reached your own conclusions. I read a great deal about religion in general and atheism specifically. I am glad that the men who came before me did not share your view, as I would not have the wonderful volumes relating to atheism and free thought that I enjoy.

 

.

And no, atheism is the new kid on the block. Most people couldn't concieve of a world without something bigger than them.

 

Certainly god belief is older than atheism, but not by much. In fact, atheism has been around the about same amount of time the written word has. It certainly predates Christianity.

 

Also, just because "most people" don't do something or can't think of something has nothing to do with the validity of their belief or action. 150 years ago, "most people" didn't have a problem with slavery. Most people don't understand quantum physics. But that doesn't mean that slavery is okay or that quantum reality does not exist.

 

The length of time something is believed in is irrelevant also. For most of human history it was thought that the Sun revolved around the Earth. When that idea became unpopular did things suddenly shift to coincide with our new notion, or has it always been that way and we just had to figure it out?

 

Where did you get that info? If you don't like religion fine but don't start throwing rocks at me because I don't agree with you. You sure are angry at religious people. What did they do to you?

 

I'm not throwing rocks at you, I am "throwing rocks" at your religion. All religions, in fact.

 

You seem to think that just because you believe it and it requires faith that it should not be questioned, or demonstrated to be delusional. Why? Why should your irrational belief be treated in such a special way? In your belief, you make a number of assertions, and reach a number of conclusions. Why shouldn't I challenge those conclusions? Because they make you feel better, or lots of people hold them?

 

I notice that because I disagree you perceive it as anger. While this is typical, I don't understand it. As believers say, "hate the sin but love the sinner." I don't hate religious people. Most of them are nice, responsible, kind individuals. But there are some--Benny Hinn and the like--who are not, and I definitely hate them. But I reserve my ultimate disdain for the system that allows men like that to flourish.

 

Religion is not the reason for all oppression on Earth, but it is a pretty good one and probably the most dangerous.

 

Good men will do good, bad men will do bad, but to get good men to do bad takes religion. I didn't make that up, but I agree with it.

 

How many innocent people were burned because it was thought they were a witch? How many are dying now because they do not worship god in a particular way? And lest you separate Christianity from Islam, in the early days of your church there was a great deal of violence amongst Christian sects. In fact, you believe as you do because the Romans had the army and training to stomp out differing points of view. Religious persecution is an all too common theme running through history.

 

And the religious don't just persecute each other. I have mentioned this before, but there are those who oppose the HPV vaccine because of their religious convictions. They would rather their daughters die a lingering, painful death from cervical cancer than prevent it with a simple shot. Priests in Africa do not mention condom use to those they hope to convert because of their opposition to birth control, and millions die from AIDS.

 

What comfort can Catholicism (or Christianity in general) provide that is worth these millions of deaths each year?

 

How many homosexual teens have to kill themselves because of the irrational idea that they are wrong or "against god" somehow? How many families are torn apart by the fact that their child simply expresses sexuality a different way (a way that is common in Nature, by the way)?

 

It is my hope that in there are those reading thread who may not have their minds made up, or at the very least question what they have been taught, and where their beliefs take them. And as they do so, they read my opinion and the evidence for that opinion and it leads them read those more eloquent than I, and to throw off the shackles of superstition and become more rational people.

[lonelybird]

Given the title of this thread, I thought I would address the issue.

 

Suffering is not caused because of sin. Such an idea is repugnant to thinking rational, compassionate people.

 

People suffer because of sickness. Most sickness is caused by bacteria, viri, or inherited propensity, like Multiple Sclerosis.

 

Why do these things exist? Because bacteria mutate. Viri mutate. Genes mutate. Everything that is self-replicating is subject to mutation. And what benefits one organism can often be detrimental to another. That is the way life works, there is no reason behind it--beyond it being efficient. Environmental pressure exerts itself on organisms, whether the environment is in your own body or in the lake in the mountains.

 

What about birth defects? Why are some people born like this: http://birth_defects.tripod.com/

 

and others born like this:

http://www.fresh99.com/news-anchor-melissa-theuriau.htm

 

The fact is: no reason. There is no reason at all. Genes combine randomly, and sometimes they combine and create something wonderfully beautiful, and other times tragically deformed and unviable. That is the nature of mutation--and most mutations are neutral or bad. 1 in every 5,000 live births results in a child with Down's Syndrome.

 

Most people tend more toward the "Melissa" side of things than the horrors I posted, but the fact remains that reproducing does not, and cannot, produce clones. Genetic material is recombined, and that's what you get.

 

I realize that this doesn't answer the question of "why". To ask why is to miss the point. For the vast majority of life on this planet it is brutal, painful, and short. It must be this way. There are only a finite amount of resources, and the organisms that possess the attributes that aid in their competing for said resources will reproduce. As that occurs, mistakes in genetic recombination will occur. Rarely, these mistakes prove beneficial, but as I stated above most of the time they are neutral or harmful.

 

To assert that God, in order to punish mankind for some mistake in the ancient past chooses to have some children born with horrible deformity and pain is sick. No moral being could do such a thing. To say that the children in the deformity photos were sinful at the point of conception is perverse and callous. If I could stop birth defects tomorrow I would do it, sinful nature of man or not. No infant deserves that kind of suffering. The fact is we are working at stopping many forms of birth defects, and I hope that one day many of these afflictions will be eliminated. Prayer hasn't worked, and will not work, so I am glad that there are doctors out there actually doing something about it...

 

It has also been suggested that the child is given a particular problem to test the faith of the parents, or because of some spiritual journey/learning experience or whatever. This is a bankrupt position as well. I have posted this before, but if I were to kidnap a young child or infant and torture it to test the parents somehow or to teach them some sort of spiritual lesson, I would be called one of the most evil people who ever lived--and rightly so. There is no moral position that can defend such behavior. Yet there are those who suggest that that is EXACTLY what god does (if suffering results from sin), and when such actions are questioned, the response is, "it's god's will and you cannot understand his godly plan, but must trust that it is good and for the best."

 

Poppycock. It amazes me that anyone would think that such nonsense is a reasonable answer, or make such tortured rhetorical statements to support their superstition.

 

The concept of punishing the son for the crimes of the father has been rejected by every civilized society on Earth. The Bible even says that such is wrong. And yet the very same Bible suggests that God does exactly that. "Why did Jesus need to die on the cross? Because all men are sinful? Why are all men sinful? Because Adam disobeyed god, and the punishment for that is suffering, and death while on Earth and eternal torment afterward. But wait, there is good news! All you have to do is believe in a certain way and then you get a pass on the eternal torment part of it. It will do nothing to prevent sickness and your eventual death, but hey! It's something.

 

It just doesn't wash. Given the suffering that occurs on Earth every day for most people you'd think that everyone would get to Heaven right off--seeing as their only sin was being born.

 

Most people have lied, cheated at a card game, or done something that benefited them at the detriment of someone else. Or many other things that are considered "sins." It is absolutely true that people can be callous at times, selfish, and just plain bad.

 

Do you think that the average person deserves eternal torment because of this? How can that possibly make sense to anyone? If I told you that I have a guy at my house who stole some cookies when he was 11 and so I was going to boil him in oil you'd call the cops and have me arrested, right? Being boiled in oil is far too severe a punishment for stealing cookies. Add all the sins up of your average person and they don't deserve to be even DIPPED in boiling oil. There are some people I could think of that I'd like to see boiled in oil, but even then it would just be a painful death and it would be over. I certainly wouldn't make it last forever. But God does. In fact, some infants are born with such horrible defects that modern medicine can only keep them alive for a few hours, and once they are dead it's off to hell with them, because of their (inherited) sinful nature.

 

Is it any wonder that thinking people consider such ideas as silly, irrational, and disgusting?

 

The fact is that the Universe is indifferent to you. Whether you live or die, are in pain or are experiencing pleasure is of no consequence. When you get sick it is nothing personal or punishment for some prior bad act, it is because as a biological organism you will get sick. People who drive cars will make mistakes and crash and become permanently disabled or die, and even kill others. Work around complex, dangerous machines and there will be accidents. Swim in the ocean and a shark might bite you. Eat too much butter and your arteries will clog--or eat a healthy diet and they will clog, if you are genetically predisposed to it. And on and on, no rhyme or reason, no reward or punishment.

 

The "suffering is punishment for sin" was probably a decent explanation for people who had no idea what a germ was, and didn't understand reproduction the way we do--no understandnig of basic reality, actually. But now we do understand it, and it is time we shed ourselves of these irrational superstitions that restrain us.

Bitterness.......dodge!!!!!

You want people to do whatever they want?

[lonelybird]

Because I think that religion is dangerous and harmful.

 

 

 

You may not be trying to convert me, but certainly others are. And yes, I do spend my free time engaging in debate in an effort to demonstrate that belief is supernatural god-beings is harmful and unnecessary. I would not be a very good person if I saw someone doing something that was bad for them and did nothing.

 

 

 

That is certainly true. But all beliefs come from somewhere. You did not just stumble upon your belief in Christ, did you? SOmebody told you about it, you read about it and what others think, and reached your own conclusions. I read a great deal about religion in general and atheism specifically. I am glad that the men who came before me did not share your view, as I would not have the wonderful volumes relating to atheism and free thought that I enjoy.

 

.

 

Certainly god belief is older than atheism, but not by much. In fact, atheism has been around the about same amount of time the written word has. It certainly predates Christianity.

 

Also, just because "most people" don't do something or can't think of something has nothing to do with the validity of their belief or action. 150 years ago, "most people" didn't have a problem with slavery. Most people don't understand quantum physics. But that doesn't mean that slavery is okay or that quantum reality does not exist.

 

The length of time something is believed in is irrelevant also. For most of human history it was thought that the Sun revolved around the Earth. When that idea became unpopular did things suddenly shift to coincide with our new notion, or has it always been that way and we just had to figure it out?

 

 

 

I'm not throwing rocks at you, I am "throwing rocks" at your religion. All religions, in fact.

 

You seem to think that just because you believe it and it requires faith that it should not be questioned, or demonstrated to be delusional. Why? Why should your irrational belief be treated in such a special way? In your belief, you make a number of assertions, and reach a number of conclusions. Why shouldn't I challenge those conclusions? Because they make you feel better, or lots of people hold them?

 

I notice that because I disagree you perceive it as anger. While this is typical, I don't understand it. As believers say, "hate the sin but love the sinner." I don't hate religious people. Most of them are nice, responsible, kind individuals. But there are some--Benny Hinn and the like--who are not, and I definitely hate them. But I reserve my ultimate disdain for the system that allows men like that to flourish.

 

Religion is not the reason for all oppression on Earth, but it is a pretty good one and probably the most dangerous.

 

Good men will do good, bad men will do bad, but to get good men to do bad takes religion. I didn't make that up, but I agree with it.

 

How many innocent people were burned because it was thought they were a witch? How many are dying now because they do not worship god in a particular way? And lest you separate Christianity from Islam, in the early days of your church there was a great deal of violence amongst Christian sects. In fact, you believe as you do because the Romans had the army and training to stomp out differing points of view. Religious persecution is an all too common theme running through history.

 

And the religious don't just persecute each other. I have mentioned this before, but there are those who oppose the HPV vaccine because of their religious convictions. They would rather their daughters die a lingering, painful death from cervical cancer than prevent it with a simple shot. Priests in Africa do not mention condom use to those they hope to convert because of their opposition to birth control, and millions die from AIDS.

 

What comfort can Catholicism (or Christianity in general) provide that is worth these millions of deaths each year?

 

How many homosexual teens have to kill themselves because of the irrational idea that they are wrong or "against god" somehow? How many families are torn apart by the fact that their child simply expresses sexuality a different way (a way that is common in Nature, by the way)?

 

It is my hope that in there are those reading thread who may not have their minds made up, or at the very least question what they have been taught, and where their beliefs take them. And as they do so, they read my opinion and the evidence for that opinion and it leads them read those more eloquent than I, and to throw off the shackles of superstition and become more rational people.

If a person who hate people, then after he read the Bible, he didn't embrace it and didn't change and kill people, so the Bible is wrong????? what kind of logic is this?

[Moai]

hopeless, unbelief..........dodge!

 

Ha!

 

Most people on Earth don't accept Jesus.

 

but do not mock the might of Thor!

[lonelybird]

God wrote living laws in people heart, if people sin agaist those laws, they will not like themselves subconsciencely. If they know these living laws better, and strive to live in line with these laws, they will become like themselves better.

Can you blame the light because their secret deeds to be exposed?

interesting logic, Moai

[Moai]

If a person who hate people, then after he read the Bible, he didn't embrace it and didn't change and kill people, so the Bible is wrong????? what kind of logic is this?

 

No offense, but this doesn't make sense in English. I assume that English is not your primary language and you are doing very well considering that.

 

If you are referring to me, I don't hate people in general. In fact, I really like most people, and I am indifferent to most of the others. I hate Benny Hinn and his ilk for sure, though.

 

When I read the Bible, I did embrace it. My father was a Baptist minister, my mother is still a believer, my uncle is a Methodist pastor, and I attended a Jesuit university for a time. Not only did I read the Bible for myself, I had the input of a great many thoughtful faithful men and their interpretations to think about.

 

I never suggested that if a killer read the Bible, didn't accept it and then continued to kill afterward that makes the Bible or religion invalid. I am not sure where you get that from the post you quoted.

 

I do think that if a good man reads his particular holy book, has faith, and the leaders of his church tell him to kill the people on the other side of the hill because the believe differently, he probably will. It is happening right this second, in fact.

 

It has happened in the history of your religion, too.

[Moai]

God wrote living laws in people heart, if people sin agaist those laws, they will not like themselves subconsciencely. If they know these living laws better, and strive to live in line with these laws, they will become like themselves better.

Can you blame the light because their secret deeds to be exposed?

interesting logic, Moai

 

I don't understand that last sentence.

 

There are behaviors that happen in some cultures that are considered important that Judaic culture, and by extension Christian culture, finds to be sinful. Your idea of what is sinful is not universal.

 

It is true that doing the right thing makes you feel better. That is why most people do the right thing, most of the time.

[lonelybird]

I don't understand that last sentence.

 

There are behaviors that happen in some cultures that are considered important that Judaic culture, and by extension Christian culture, finds to be sinful. Your idea of what is sinful is not universal.

 

It is true that doing the right thing makes you feel better. That is why most people do the right thing, most of the time.

Last sentence means

People sin against these living laws, they know they did wrong at the bottom of their heart, but they deny it and continue to lie to themselves, they feel guilt about it but in a unobivious way. Now the light come, their secret deeds exposed, they feel terrible about themselves. And YOU blame the LIGHT because the guilty they felt.

You know what light means, right?

[lonelybird]

No offense, but this doesn't make sense in English. I assume that English is not your primary language and you are doing very well considering that.

 

If you are referring to me, I don't hate people in general. In fact, I really like most people, and I am indifferent to most of the others. I hate Benny Hinn and his ilk for sure, though.

 

When I read the Bible, I did embrace it. My father was a Baptist minister, my mother is still a believer, my uncle is a Methodist pastor, and I attended a Jesuit university for a time. Not only did I read the Bible for myself, I had the input of a great many thoughtful faithful men and their interpretations to think about.

 

I never suggested that if a killer read the Bible, didn't accept it and then continued to kill afterward that makes the Bible or religion invalid. I am not sure where you get that from the post you quoted.

 

I do think that if a good man reads his particular holy book, has faith, and the leaders of his church tell him to kill the people on the other side of the hill because the believe differently, he probably will. It is happening right this second, in fact.

 

It has happened in the history of your religion, too.

Ok, "my religion", when human being is led by flesh they could do many bad things.

 

The work of flesh:Galatians

5:19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, depravity,

5:20 idolatry, sorcery, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish rivalries, dissensions, factions,

5:21 envying, murder, drunkenness, carousing, and similar things. I am warning you, as I had warned you before: Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God!

 

The work of Spirit:Galatians

5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

5:23 gentleness, and self-control.

 

Now you can see what spirit produce, and what flesh produce.

 

So, NOW if a person read Bible, and claim he is a believer, but he didn't embrace the spiritual teaching, and he continue his evil ways, ACCORDING TO YOUR LOGIC, it is the Bible wrong!?!?!? your logic cannot stand

[Moai]

Bitterness.......dodge!!!!!

You want people to do whatever they want?

 

People are already doing whatever they want, at least in free countries.

 

Yes, I think that you should be able to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't hurt someone else.

[Moai]

Last sentence means

People sin against these living laws, they know they did wrong at the bottom of their heart, but they deny it and continue to lie to themselves, they feel guilt about it but in a unobivious way. Now the light come, their secret deeds exposed, they feel terrible about themselves. And YOU blame the LIGHT because the guilty they felt.

You know what light means, right?

 

I don't "blame" the light or anything else for guilt--or anything else for that matter.

 

Yes, people feel guilty when they do something wrong--or at least, most people do.

 

But what is wrong is largely determined by culture, that is my point. And just because people feel guilt when they transgress against the laws of their culture (there are those who enjoy it, certainly) it does not follow that god gives those laws.

 

For example, I have mentioned a tribe in South America where one woman marries many men. They do not see this practice as sinful at all, and experience no guilt because of it. In fact, her first husband seeks out and suggests other husbands for her, as they see it as dangerous for one woman to have more than two children from one man. No guilt involved in any of these behaviors.

 

If guilt comes from the light, as you say, how can this be?

 

The notion of sin changes, too. There are things I engage in regularly that were once considered sinful but are now recognized as natural, harmless, and healthy. I don't feel guilty about any of them, either. Yet again, science shows that our attitude about a certain behavior was wrong, and the attitude toward it has changed, and such is not a "sin" or anything to be embarrassed about.

[lonelybird]

....

If guilt comes from the light, as you say, how can this be?

 

.

Without light, around all darkness, if a person did something wrong, or impurity, nobody can see this evil deed including himself. Because he is BLIND. Now light come, his evil deed exposed, now he feel uncomfortable because the light show him his evil deed, the guilt underground (subconscience) now rise to the surface, so he hates the lights. i.g. a person who commit adultery, who involve with a MM, this person will not like the "ten commandments", he hates it, he don't want to know he did evil thing. But keep blindness will hurt himself.

[Moai]

Ok, "my religion", when human being is led by flesh they could do many bad things.

 

Sure they could. that is why I hope that people would use their brains.

 

And in every example of the religious persecuting others, they are not led by their flesh, but by their faith.

 

The work of flesh:Galatians

5:19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, depravity,

5:20 idolatry, sorcery, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish rivalries, dissensions, factions,

5:21 envying, murder, drunkenness, carousing, and similar things. I am warning you, as I had warned you before: Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God!

 

Ok, the first thing mentioned is sexual immorality. What is immoral sexually is determined by culture. What is deviant in one culture is embraced in another.

 

Impurity is a pretty nebulous concept.

 

Jews think that you are engaging in idolatry, since you worship Jesus, and they think he was just a man like everybody else. So there are those that think you are evil.

 

I've never killed anybody, but putting drunkenness right there with it is a little extreme. I actually enjoy being drunk on occasion. I was drunk last night, in fact. had a blast, don't feel guilty. Lots of cool things happened that I feel good about, in fact. Oh--I was probably carousing, too. Yeah, I was.

 

So I am going to hell. Rats. Having lots of fun on the way, I'll say.

 

The work of Spirit:Galatians

5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

5:23 gentleness, and self-control.

 

I experience all those things, too. I experienced most of them last night when I was drunk, even. Especially the love and joy part.

 

Now you can see what spirit produce, and what flesh produce.

 

So, NOW if a person read Bible, and claim he is a believer, but he didn't embrace the spiritual teaching, and he continue his evil ways, ACCORDING TO YOUR LOGIC, it is the Bible wrong!?!?!? your logic cannot stand

 

Nope, you missed it again. There are places in the Bible where it says good, moral things. No doubt. But it also says horrible, cruel things. And yes, it is the Bible's fault. If they weren't to be followed, they shouldn't be in there.

 

This is in the Bible:

 

Exodus 22:18 "Suffer not a witch to live."

 

Deuteronomy 18:10 "There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch."

 

Feel free to make all the "out of context" protestations that you want, but that's in the Bible, and for about 500 years. Longer, really. The Spanish Inquisition did not end until 1834. Not even 200 years ago. In fact, the Catholic Church did not abolish the use of torture until 1917.

 

I know you will argue that Catholics aren't Christians, but for almost 1200 years or so they were the only game going. Where were all the "true" Christians protesting the abuses of the Church? Where were the people who understood the true teaching of the book? How is it tat so many devout believers could be so wrong for so long?

 

You read the Bible and talk to your pastors and get a certain interpretation, which you assume to mean that the Bible is all about love and no real believer would ever commit such barbarous acts.

 

Do you deny that these people used the Bible to justify atrocities? How can a book written by god that is all about love be used in such a way? Keep in mind that it was used that way longer than it hasn't. Your particular strain of belief is only about 150 years old. That being the case, every professed believer until that time was not a true believer and is going to Hell. And most of them afterward, too.

 

When I bought my stereo it had an instruction booklet that came with it. It is very specific in what the buttons do, how it works, and warnings about listening at high volumes, possible shock, etc. And it was written by some guy who worked for Onkyo. He was not inspired by god to write the manual. Yet it is easy to understand, and if I follow the instructions the stereo works great. I can't take those instructions and interpret them to mean that I have to kill my neighbor because he has a Pioneer stereo, or that I must not listen on a particular day or it will explode, and we don't have "manual studies" where I get together with other Onkyo owners and discuss how the stereos work. There is no reason for the latter, and nothing at all about the first two.

 

How is it that some guy who works for an electronics company can write a concise, easy to understand book that explains everything and leaves no room for interpretation, yet god writes a book and there are thousands of different interpretations? And god's book is about my eventual salvation (or damnation), which is infinitely more important?

 

The fault is clearly the book. Just because you think that you can read it and glean positive things out of it it does not follow that the book is valuable or good. Moreover, if one must inspired by the Holy Spirit to understand it (and people can think they are and STILL misunderstand it) then the book is clearly not the word of god at best, and dangerous at worst. As you know, I am in the latter cap.

[Moai]

Without light, around all darkness, if a person did something wrong, or impurity, nobody can see this evil deed including himself. Because he is BLIND. Now light come, his evil deed exposed, now he feel uncomfortable because the light show him his evil deed, the guilt underground (subconscience) now rise to the surface, so he hates the lights. i.g. a person who commit adultery, who involve with a MM, this person will not like the "ten commandments", he hates it, he don't want to know he did evil thing. But keep blindness will hurt himself.

 

You don't address the question, and raise a few others.

 

In the examples I gave, the people do not feel any guilt about their behavior.

 

You are claiming that is because they are blind. In point of fact, their culture works quite well the way it is. There is no adultery in their culture as you understand it. God would say their practice is adultery, but such an idea is totally alien to them.

 

I don't know where you get this idea of "hating the lights" for showing someone that they committed an immoral act. I have done things I am not proud of (thankfully few and far between) but I don't hate the light for feeling like I did. I did something wrong, and I knew it. And I didn't do it again. I didn't resent the cultural norms or the Golden Rule because I felt that way. I understand that I felt that way because of those things, and resolved to do better to follow those rules. And I have. I don't beat myself up because of those mistakes, I accepted them and moved on.

 

And by your earlier posts, everyone knows when they do something wrong whether they have read the Ten Commandments or not. You said that god puts that feeling in people, the sense of right and wrong. So which is it?

 

Would you destroy the culture of a happy, peaceful people simply because they don't follow the rules of a shepherd culture that lived on the other side of the globe from them 2,000 years ago? And what gives you the right to do such a thing?

[lonelybird]

Sure they could. that is why I hope that people would use their brains.

 

And in every example of the religious persecuting others, they are not led by their flesh, but by their faith.

 

 

 

Ok, the first thing mentioned is sexual immorality. What is immoral sexually is determined by culture. What is deviant in one culture is embraced in another.

 

Impurity is a pretty nebulous concept.

 

Jews think that you are engaging in idolatry, since you worship Jesus, and they think he was just a man like everybody else. So there are those that think you are evil.

 

I've never killed anybody, but putting drunkenness right there with it is a little extreme. I actually enjoy being drunk on occasion. I was drunk last night, in fact. had a blast, don't feel guilty. Lots of cool things happened that I feel good about, in fact. Oh--I was probably carousing, too. Yeah, I was.

 

So I am going to hell. Rats. Having lots of fun on the way, I'll say.

 

 

 

I experience all those things, too. I experienced most of them last night when I was drunk, even. Especially the love and joy part.

 

 

 

Nope, you missed it again. There are places in the Bible where it says good, moral things. No doubt. But it also says horrible, cruel things. And yes, it is the Bible's fault. If they weren't to be followed, they shouldn't be in there.

 

This is in the Bible:

 

Exodus 22:18 "Suffer not a witch to live."

 

Deuteronomy 18:10 "There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch."

 

Feel free to make all the "out of context" protestations that you want, but that's in the Bible, and for about 500 years. Longer, really. The Spanish Inquisition did not end until 1834. Not even 200 years ago. In fact, the Catholic Church did not abolish the use of torture until 1917.

 

I know you will argue that Catholics aren't Christians, but for almost 1200 years or so they were the only game going. Where were all the "true" Christians protesting the abuses of the Church? Where were the people who understood the true teaching of the book? How is it tat so many devout believers could be so wrong for so long?

 

You read the Bible and talk to your pastors and get a certain interpretation, which you assume to mean that the Bible is all about love and no real believer would ever commit such barbarous acts.

 

Do you deny that these people used the Bible to justify atrocities? How can a book written by god that is all about love be used in such a way? Keep in mind that it was used that way longer than it hasn't. Your particular strain of belief is only about 150 years old. That being the case, every professed believer until that time was not a true believer and is going to Hell. And most of them afterward, too.

 

When I bought my stereo it had an instruction booklet that came with it. It is very specific in what the buttons do, how it works, and warnings about listening at high volumes, possible shock, etc. And it was written by some guy who worked for Onkyo. He was not inspired by god to write the manual. Yet it is easy to understand, and if I follow the instructions the stereo works great. I can't take those instructions and interpret them to mean that I have to kill my neighbor because he has a Pioneer stereo, or that I must not listen on a particular day or it will explode, and we don't have "manual studies" where I get together with other Onkyo owners and discuss how the stereos work. There is no reason for the latter, and nothing at all about the first two.

 

How is it that some guy who works for an electronics company can write a concise, easy to understand book that explains everything and leaves no room for interpretation, yet god writes a book and there are thousands of different interpretations? And god's book is about my eventual salvation (or damnation), which is infinitely more important?

 

The fault is clearly the book. Just because you think that you can read it and glean positive things out of it it does not follow that the book is valuable or good. Moreover, if one must inspired by the Holy Spirit to understand it (and people can think they are and STILL misunderstand it) then the book is clearly not the word of god at best, and dangerous at worst. As you know, I am in the latter cap.

If you continue to pick out verses that God got angry, that's it, it is dangerous. I didn't say it is not

[Island Girl]

Bitterness.......dodge!!!!!

 

The Artful Dodger calling another out for dodging?

 

Hypocritical? I'd say yes. But then most Christians, or people of faith are hypocritical about something.

 

I find Christianity bends which ever way is convenient at the time.

 

Interpretation changes with whatever point the believer is trying to make.

 

And interpretation depends on the particular subscription of the believer as well.

 

What does your God say about casting stones again...? Hmmm.

 

I think you just broke that one.

 

Are you on your knees asking for forgiveness?

[Moai]

If you continue to pick out verses that God got angry, that's it, it is dangerous. I didn't say it is not

 

And you're right. But it goes beyond that. You seem to ignore that the people who do that are just as devout as you, know they are following Jesus with all their hearts, and pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit just as you do.

[lonelybird]

When God wrote the Bible, He assume we will read a whole section from verse one to verse two, three........He didn't want us to read it from verse 4, then jump to verse eight, then miss out verse one and two, He didn't know anybody would read it like you did:p

[Island Girl]

If you continue to pick out verses that God got angry, that's it, it is dangerous. I didn't say it is not

 

One needn't pull out verses where God is angry -- people do harm to others in the name of God all the time.

 

It is religion that is dangerous not certain scriptures.

 

And I am surprised you are advocating turning away from these passages.

 

You have to swallow the whole thing - believe in ALL of it -- not just certain passages that you like because they speak of love and happiness.

 

Jesus is not the Jerry Garcia of religion.

[lonelybird]

One needn't pull out verses where God is angry -- people do harm to others in the name of God all the time.

 

It is religion that is dangerous not certain scriptures.

 

And I am surprised you are advocating turning away from these passages.

 

You have to swallow the whole thing - believe in ALL of it -- not just certain passages that you like because they speak of love and happiness.

 

Jesus is not the Jerry Garcia of religion.

No, you read my post wrong. If you pick out verses God got angry, that's it. God got angry to evil doers

[Island Girl]

When God wrote the Bible, He assume we will read a whole section from verse one to verse two, three........He didn't want us to read it from verse 4, then jump to verse eight, then miss out verse one and two, He didn't know anybody would read it like you did:p

 

But that is the way YOU read it -- or study it. You flip back and forth between chapter and verse trying to prove whatever point you want prove.

 

You haven't read the bible cover to cover. Not even your version or interpretation of the bible.

 

If you -- and all of the other "believers" out there -- were so gung ho about knowing exactly what your God said to you and how you are to worship then you'd learn Hebrew to be able to read the bible as it was originally written.

 

But that would be too much effort right?

 

And it really doesn't matter that you follow a loose translation of what was actually said because "kind of" what God says is enough.

 

Too bad that 1499 other groups of people feel the same way and interpret the same book differently than you do -- but still they call themselves Christians just as you do.

 

I am not even going to start on the other faiths - we'll just stick with Christianity for now.

 

They are just as devout in their beliefs. Just as "filled to the brim with Holy Spirit".

 

Yet by your own admission you can't all be right.

 

It seems to me that if you really wanted to KNOW what God said and what he meant in the bible - you'd be too busy trying to learn Hebrew to be writing here.

 

After all the end is coming right? And you have to be doing the right thing before it happens or you may be --- <insert game show buzzer> --- out of luck.

 

No Heaven for you. Awwwwwwwwww.

[Moai]

When God wrote the Bible, He assume we will read a whole section from verse one to verse two, three........He didn't want us to read it from verse 4, then jump to verse eight, then miss out verse one and two, He didn't know anybody would read it like you did:p

 

I read the whole thing in order three times (not all in a row, though).

 

And I have never killed anybody because of the Bible. People who believe in it do that.

 

And if you want to say that the Catholic clergy skipped around that is up to you, but if you familiarize yourself with their doctrines, they don't do that. And they are the ones that killed people. Protestants did, too, so I am not just Catholic bashing.

 

They even wrote a book about witches, and how they should be dealt with:

 

http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/mm00d.html

 

It is well reasoned, has loads of scriptural support (and I'll bet at least as good or better than your pastors can do) and is also probably the most horrifying book written, including the Bible.

 

Of course, they assume that witches are real and do not offer any evidence of their existence, but the Bible says they are real and so they went from there. At least 400 years of brutal torture and murder followed.

[lonelybird]

when human being is led by flesh they could do many bad things.

 

The work of flesh:Galatians

5:19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, depravity,

5:20 idolatry, sorcery, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish rivalries, dissensions, factions,

5:21 envying, murder, drunkenness, carousing, and similar things. I am warning you, as I had warned you before: Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God!

 

The work of Spirit:Galatians

5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

5:23 gentleness, and self-control.

 

Now you can see what spirit produce, and what flesh produce.

 

So, NOW if a person read Bible, and claim he is a believer, but he didn't embrace the spiritual teaching, and he continue his evil ways, ACCORDING TO YOUR LOGIC, it is the Bible wrong!?!?!? your logic cannot stand

 

If you don't mind repost your point I answered before, I don't mind repost my answer either