Tribulation on earth.

[lonelybird]

You would be right.

 

I think that religion in general is harmful and dangerous, and Christianity is one that is at the top of the list. It is certainly one of the best if you want to do evil, and its members excel at it.

Whenever we speak love of Jesus and God's commandments, you come out to say "christian is evil, blah, blah, blah..". Do you fear Jesus? Do you fear people will know God's living law? Do you fear people get hope? why??? what love can do harm? what hope can do harm? here, we speak love, what Jesus did: heal people, care poor, bring hope to people. What can these things bring damage???? oh, evil would fear Jesus:laugh:

Are you the wolf????

[Love Hurts]

Not with the Left Behind movies on TBN (I saw them they were so awesome! And by "awesome" I mean "so bad they are good"). The "Left Behind series of books is one of the most successful series ever. I doubt there is anyone in the Western world over the age of ten who isn't aware of it.

 

Of course. That is the more magical idea.

 

Oooh, heavy.

 

Well, so is unbelief, so what's the difference? And why is Satan in a sword fight? Can't he get a gun? And "one of his heads"? I would think that a sentient being that can get into a sword fight who also had more than one head would be a giveaway that he is something other than human. Or does this mean that Satan inhabits conjoined twins?

 

Yep. Iron Maiden has a really good song about it.

 

As opposed to now? If I were to die tonight I'd go to Hell, according to your mythos. So (given that I miss the Rapture or something) I would be no worse off taking the Mark. No big deal.

 

There are worse ways to go. I'd take a beheading if it meant life in Heaven for me, which I would know it would because the Rapture happened.

 

No, their souls are with Christ, so they died. They were beheaded. Where in the above does it say many survive?

 

 

Well, the Bible is right about the directions the sun rises and sets in. Wonders never cease.

 

By "eagles" doesn't he mean "vultures"? Eagles don't eat carcasses.

 

Well, if the Sun goes black then the moon by definition will not shine at night. The moon does not give off light; it reflects the light of the Sun. Amazing god didn't know this (he did inspire this author, did he not?)

 

If the stars fall from heaven, the closest one must fall 4.4 light years before this event, or you'd never know it. So, since the stars we see at night have fallen already, as most stars are hundreds of thousands of light years from here.

 

I have no idea what the powers of the Heavens are.

 

Impressive. Most impressive.

 

Huh. Well, at night the sky is black as night, so I am not sure what this means. Of course, every star in the Universe (well, the ones visible from Earth anyway) have been snuffed out at various times so that they disappear simultaneously. That explains what "black as night" means. Is our Sun part of this? When the sky lights up at his appearance does that mean that the sun comes up, or the Earth doesn't need a sun anymore because of the light of Jesus, or what? And what about the people living on the other side of the planet when Jesus shows up for battle? They won't be able to see Jesus' light. How will they know when it is over? Do they just sit in the dark and wait, or what?

 

 

Left behind movies worth the watch.

 

The moon and sun offer no light and the stars have fallen. So we know the sky is black as night.

 

Also what about electric lighting on earth? The Electromagnetic bomb has the ability to stop all electricity.

 

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/kopp/apjemp.html

 

The Black sky will light up in His Glory, as His light is the Light of the World.

 

….http://www.lifetalk.net/2ndcoming/ee.html

 

Every eye shall see him;

 

Revelation 1:

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

How can every eye see Christ when the earth is round? Good question?

Some do not see this as literal… I doubt that very much.

Why would only a portion of men on earth see and no others are privy?

 

Two thoughts on this one…

 

 

1)We take it by faith that He is God and if He says every eye will see Him …Then None will miss this. There are no repeat grand entrances.

 

2)If any have a better explanation please do share it.

 

Armageddon, which means “mountain of Megiddo,” is a valley which will be the site of the final battle in the end times. Armageddon has become known as the battle in which God will intervene and destroy the armies of the antichrist (Revelation 16:16; 20:1-3, 7-10).

 

The exact location of the valley of Armageddon is debated. The most likely possibility is the valley between Mount Carmel and the city of Jezreel.

 

The valley of Armageddon was famous for two great victories in Israel’s history: (1) Barak’s victory over the Canaanites (Judges 4:15), and (2) Gideon’s victory over the Midianites (Judges chapter 7).

 

Armageddon was also the site for two great tragedies: (1) the death of Saul and his sons (1 Samuel 31:8), and (2) the death of King Josiah (2 Kings 23:29-30; 2 Chronicles 35:22).

 

Because of this history, the valley of Armageddon became a symbol of the final conflict between God and the forces of evil. The word “Armageddon” only occurs in Revelation 16:16,

 

“Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.” This speaks of the kings who are loyal to the antichrist gathering together for a final assault on Israel. In the Book of Revelation, at Armageddon "the cup of the wine of the fierceness of God’s wrath" (Revelation 16:19) will be delivered, and the antichrist and his followers will be overthrown and defeated. The word “Armageddon” has become a general term that refers to the end of the world, not exclusively the battle that takes place in the valley of Armageddon.

 

[There are worse ways to go. I'd take a beheading if it meant life in Heaven for me, which I would know it would because the Rapture happened.]

 

This brings tears to the eyes, a beautiful statement. Keep in mind Moai, as we look at the Trib and you consider being a warrior for Christ and that’s honorable. You can also be the Bride of Christ as He is calling you now…

________

 

 

*Who will populate the Millennium? …Promises to the Jews, Church and Gentiles. Curse on animals removed. Earth transformed.

 

[FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#800080]http://www.lamblion.com/articles/prophecy/viewpoints/Views-02.php[/COLOR][/FONT]

 

 

A second chance for Salvation; during the Tribulation.

 

http://jesuschristis.com/tribulation/rr-second-chance.html

 

 

These links will help with a few more Q's along the way.

 

 

God Bless*

[quankanne]

I haven't met one person ever who claimed to be Christ.

 

if I remember correctly, Jesus didn't toot his own horn the first time around, but was revealed to his disciples through their faith in God. So my thought is that if someone DOES claim to be the Christ, you can pretty much rule him or her out as an imposter. Only God reveals that, not man.

 

other thought is that if we are strong in our belief, with eyes toward heaven, why the hell are we running around like Chicken Little at the though of the Rapture? We're not supposed to be bound to this earth, but bound to spiritual things ... if we're in the midst of the tribulation and we truly believe in our salvation, we should have no fear of those things. Obsessing on the tribulation seems to make a mockery of what should be a strong sense of spirituality because you're trying to outguess God!

 

frankly, I'm excited by the thought that Christ could return during my lifetime ...

[quankanne]

The Tribulation is a winepress

This is the last and final chance for any and all that will come to Christ.

Fence Riders...they know who they are...they know of Christ.

They know the word of God. Yet have not made the decision to receive Him as Lord and Savior.

Many more come to Christ though the Tribulation.

 

see, this flies completely in the face of the catechism I learned, about how we "wait in joyful hope of the coming of our Savior," because it instills a sense of fear. And I have a huge concern about people thinking God wants us to come to him out of fear, rather than love and acceptance.

[a4a]

I haven't met one person ever who claimed to be Christ.

 

if I remember correctly, Jesus didn't toot his own horn the first time around, but was revealed to his disciples through their faith in God. So my thought is that if someone DOES claim to be the Christ, you can pretty much rule him or her out as an imposter. Only God reveals that, not man.

 

 

 

Well there certainly are a ton of people that claim god or christ has chosen them to speak for and act for them (god/christ)... the next best thing to claiming to be christ himself??

 

I can only speak for myself, but as soon as I start hearing voices or find a virgin mary in my Dorito bag I may also claim myself as a personal rep of god or jesus.

[Topper]

If i wanted to be wealthy and not really care what I said i would start a chruch. Start saying that the end times are near. make some stuff kind of fit bible prophecy and claim some inside info right from the source.

yeap i could put on a $2000 suit, get up on stage and preach the end times. Of course I would also need a bad Toupee and a wife with big Hair.

[Love Hurts]

Let's hope so, if it comes to that. I am not sure what my will has to do with any of this.

 

 

 

And then there are those of us not sitting on the fence at all, but rejecting the whole thing.

 

 

 

And I was you. I once believed as you do. But now I don't. I like it this way much better.

 

 

 

Do "post-tribs" go to Hell? How come the Holy Spirit leads them to believe that way?

 

 

 

Then why include the parts for the Jews in your Bible?

 

 

 

No Jews do. It's complicated, but I think once you accept Jesus you would cease to be Jewish. COnsidering "Jewish" to be an ethnicity is murky.

 

 

 

No, I am probably the most strident atheist you will ever interact with. I don't for a second think any of this is going to happen, now, in a few years from now, or EVER.

 

I don't believe that the world is going to end in 2012, either (I think the Mayans suggest that.)

 

In order to believe in god, I would require a very big sign. The Rapture would certainly qualify. Just because I acknowledge that it doesn't follow that I remotely consider it a possibility.

 

 

 

Oh, that's good to know. It was keeping me up nights wondering where the Holy Spirit was going to be during all of this.

_________________________________________________

 

 

 

Oh, lamb's blood is like bleach. Cool.

 

 

 

I don't hear god, I hear someone who is very superstitious, or maybe on drugs, rambling about impossible events. I mean, the fact that you really believe this without a shred of doubt almost makes me feel sorry for you. Almost.

 

 

 

Ah, believe now and get rewarded LATER. Neat trick. With an idea like that it would be pretty easy to control people who bought it, no?

 

 

 

Awesome. So I have a thousand years of being a bellhop to look forward to.

 

 

 

Wow, it all makes such sense now. Is there a reason you started this thread? I mean, you could have just said, "I encourage all my fellow believers to study up on the Last Days, as it would seem that they are drawing nigh." And beyond that, why do you care? You won't be here--or at least you believe that you won't. If you are using this as an evangelical tool, wouldn't it be better to concentrate on the "Good News"? If someone doesn't believe in Jesus in the first place everything you are posting is just meaningless superstition and nonsense.

 

 

Lol you are humorous in your responses at times.

 

[And I was you. I once believed as you do. But now I don't. I like it this way much better]. How beautiful to hear your heart softening… you’re beginning to bend Moai.

 

[Do "post-tribs" go to Hell? How come the Holy Spirit leads them to believe that way?]

 

The great thing about salvation is no matter when you believe the rapture will happen your going. When we run dry in our debates on Post and Pre… I like to say ok…

 

“If I’m right we go seven years sooner… If your right you and I may be getting our heads removed together.”

 

{Many will make it through the seven years… as there will be nations on earth. during the 1000 yr. reign of Christ… that’s a lot of people}

 

[Then why include the parts for the Jews in your Bible?]

 

Christian Jews have been since the first Christians of Christendom. …they read the Bible just as we Gentile Christians do. They claim soul salvation in the Lord and evangelize. They will be called home in the rapture with the any and all that are saved. Still the majority of Jews do not yet believe Jesus is the Messiah. Scripture tells us Jews will turn to the Lord through the Tribulation.

 

You can google and see Christian Jews in:

 

. Jews for Jesus

. Christian Jews

. Zola Levitt Ministries

 

 

Jews saved loose nothing only gain in the Lord. We are the ones grafted into .

---Its we the Gentiles who; are grafted into the Jewish tree. In order for Gentiles to become heirs with Abraham and inheritors of this world forever they must become adopted children into the family of Abraham. (Jeremiah 12:16).

 

The scripture in affirmation of this Truth is also found in the same chapter of Galations 3:16, where we are told "the promises are made to Abraham and his seed."

 

The conclusion of this chapter reads, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for ye. Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Verses 28,29) This is speaking of the very same promise introduced in verse 16 of this chapters given above.

 

---The Gentiles are inheritors of these promises through Christ. This verse reads in full:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to the seeds as many but as one, and to thy seed which is Christ." Then the further explanation is given in the concluding verses of his chapter as quoted above. Gentiles are inheritors only through Christ, and it says:

"If ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs.

 

http://www.therefinersfire.org/salvation_for_gentiles.htm

 

 

It also needs to be pointed out that there is a TIME-frame attached to a harvest from the Gentiles. The promise in Romans 11:26 that "all Israel will be saved", is preceded by the following warning to Gentiles in verse 25,

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

 

End-time Bible teachers who realize the relevance of Israel, perceive this turning point in history, when God shifted his involvement from the salvation of the Gentiles to that of the Jews, to be the time of the rebirth of the State of Israel in 1948. It is, nevertheless, clear that this transition is effected over a period of time since Jerusalem is still in part being trampled by the Gentiles, in line with the prediction in Luke 21:24,

 

.....Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

[Awesome. So I have a thousand years of being a bellhop to look forward to.]

 

Bellhop,,, ouch too funny….

Know that we saved will all have our place in the Lord. We will all serve the Lord in some way and be so thankful we are…

 

No, I’m not planning on being here. I was lost but now I’m found.

Still many are lost and should be… could be with the Lord.

Jesus is the way the truth and the life and if any that believe in Him call upon His name asking Him into their heart. They shall be saved. Salvation is free; it’s for any and all. Only just ask.

 

 

 

God Bless*

[a4a]

If i wanted to be wealthy and not really care what I said i would start a chruch. Start saying that the end times are near. make some stuff kind of fit bible prophecy and claim some inside info right from the source.

yeap i could put on a $2000 suit, get up on stage and preach the end times. Of course I would also need a bad Toupee and a wife with big Hair.

 

Dateline or a similar show just did a story on the $$$ in religion. Mansions, private jets, big hair wife with tons of mascara.

 

Don't forget to get caught sinning (under age hookers and gay acts) and then repent so you can get more money when your cash flow starts slowing down a bit.

[Moai]

Whenever we speak love of Jesus and God's commandments, you come out to say "christian is evil, blah, blah, blah..". Do you fear Jesus? Do you fear people will know God's living law? Do you fear people get hope? why??? what love can do harm? what hope can do harm? here, we speak love, what Jesus did: heal people, care poor, bring hope to people. What can these things bring damage???? oh, evil would fear Jesus:laugh:

Are you the wolf????

 

I didn't say Christianity is evil, I said religion is dangerous, and while there are certainly other reasons people do bad things, religion is a pretty good one.

 

No, I don't fear Jesus. If Jesus even lived (which is debatable), he wasn't a god or anything. I don't fear Thor, Allah, Zeus, Vishnu, or any other deity people have made up over the centuries.

 

Where is this love you describe? Certainly there have been believers who have done some nice things. But there have also been believers who have done some very bad things. Very, very bad things.

 

And what hope does your religion bring--save hope in everlasting life, which just puts a band-aid on an irrational fear of death? And what is hope if what you hope for is impossible? The person who hopes for an eventual cure for cancer is one up on someone who hopes for a miraculous cure.

 

Let me give you an example, one that actually happened. There was a couple who immigrated to the United States from India, and became born-again Christians. They had a son, born with a terrible brain disorder. He couldn't feed himself, and had to be on medication to keep him alive. Even fifteen years ago he would only have lived until the age of two, but modern medicine kept him alive for three years after that.

 

The couple were devout, watched a great deal of Christian programing, and one of their favorites is Benny Hinn. They learned that Benny Hinn was coming to their city, and made plans to go. Benny Hinn heals people in the name of Jesus--surely he would heal their son.

 

Benny Hinn claimed to heal their son, and told them that they must be strong in their faith, that such was an important part of their son's receipt of the healing. So, to demonstrate their faith and because they knew that Jesus heals people, they took their son off of his medication. The doctors treating their son urged them desperately to reconsider, but their faith was unwavering.

 

Their son died. Their hope in a miraculous cure actually resulted in their son's death. What is even more tragic is the couple believes their son died because they did not have enough faith! They still believe that Benny Hinn is a man of god.

 

Now, you can trundle out that old chestnut that they aren't "true" Christians, that Benny Hinn isn't a Christian, but you would be WRONG. That Indian couple believes EXACTLY as you do. The interpret the Bible the same way, the believe as fervently as you. Benny Hinn espouses the same beliefs as you, and preaches the same doctrines as you.

 

I think anything that would prevent parents from giving their children life-giving medicine is dangerous, if not outright evil.

 

And who is the wolf now? I would have done all I could to keep their son on medication, to keep him alive. I would have tried to show them that Benny Hinn is a fraud. I doubt you would have. You probably would have joined their prayer circle, basked in Jesus' love, and praised him while their child expired--which is exactly what the other believers did. I'll bet they sure felt good afterward, though. That room was FILLED with the Holy Spirit.

 

A radical new procedure could have been developed in a few more months, months denied to this innocent boy. That is the kind of hope I have. Explain to me where my hope is misplaced, and where the hope Jesus brings isn't.

 

Now, I don't hold any of this against Jesus per se, as Jesus doesn't exist, so he is beyond blame. That would be like me saying these parents doing this is Abraham Lincoln's fault. But it is precisely because of their FAITH that their son died prematurely.

 

Here's another little tidbit for you: An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children who died under the care of faith healers would most likely have survived, if they had received medical care. Eighty-one percent of the deaths were caused by conditions that had a medical survival rate of 90%.

 

Children are DYING because of faith--faith that you yourself share.

 

If their parents were atheists and as such held thinking rationally in the highest regard, close to 72% of those children would have lived. At least.

 

The love of which you speak is false. You refer to God's living Law. Where is the love in that? You are so blinded by your faith you cannot even see that the very Law you describe is anything but loving. I do not think any rational person could agree that eternal torment for a thought-crime is loving--or even just. You don't think so, obviously.

 

Maybe I am the wolf, being used by Satan to lead people from the Lord. I doubt it, since I don't believe is Satan either, but there it is. I will be punished forever because of it, if what you believe is true. But, if my debating your articles of faith--and any faith for that matter--leads some person reading this thread or other things I and other, more prominent atheists have written to reject what you believe and actually give their child medicine it will have been worth it. And, if God is going to damn me forever because I tried desperately to keep children alive (among other things), then he is neither just, nor fair, nor even rational. And for me at least, it will have been worth it.

[Moai]

Check out a few links on end time signs

 

http://contenderministries.org/prophecy/endtimes.php

 

New World Order

http://www.threeworldwars.com/new-world-order.htm

 

FEMA CAMPS

http://www.rense.com/general17/statebystate.htm

 

 

FEMA

http://www.greatdreams.com/concentration.htm

 

 

YOU TUBE FEMA CAMPS

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=FEMA+CAMPS

 

 

The mention of our governments ability to stop Constitutional Rights verbalized;

 

 

 

 

Realize that our Constitutional rights are now set up to be lost in a moment.

Not decades…in a moment. We will be changed and forced into.

 

 

 

FEMA Executive Orders under the FEMA plan, there is no contingency by which Constitutional power is restored.

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/fema_executive_orders.htm

 

 

I don't like the idea of our constitutional rights being violated any more than you do--especially since I will be among the first to be locked up. You do realize, I hope, that the Bill of Rights (and the amendments that follow) is a SECULAR document, right?

 

It's funny, but I think that freedom of thought is paramount, and I would die before I let someone force you to think and believe in a different way. I will do my best to convince you that your beliefs are irrational and should be abandoned, but I cherish your right to believe as you do.

 

Pity you do not feel the same, nor does your God. I go to Hell because I believed incorrectly, after all.

 

Would you fight against a theocracy, one that was run by believers like you? Would you protect my right to NOT believe? Given the glee with which you would welcome Jesus smiting the unbelievers, I have my doubts.

[Moai]

Lol you are humorous in your responses at times.

 

Thank you.

 

[And I was you. I once believed as you do. But now I don't. I like it this way much better]. How beautiful to hear your heart softening… you’re beginning to bend Moai.

 

Um, no...I am not sure where you get that idea. Maybe you should read my post again.

 

[Do "post-tribs" go to Hell? How come the Holy Spirit leads them to believe that way?]

 

The great thing about salvation is no matter when you believe the rapture will happen your going. When we run dry in our debates on Post and Pre… I like to say ok…

 

“If I’m right we go seven years sooner… If your right you and I may be getting our heads removed together.”

 

Ok, so you admit that there are doctrines that aren't important. How do you know which ones are ok to be wrong about and which ones aren't? The fact is, you are just guessing, and you hold onto the ones which make you feel better. As do all believers, everywhere.

 

{Many will make it through the seven years… as there will be nations on earth. during the 1000 yr. reign of Christ… that’s a lot of people}

 

Yea, and then Jesus has to fight Satan AGAIN, right? Why not just get it over with in the first battle?

 

[Then why include the parts for the Jews in your Bible?]

 

Christian Jews have been since the first Christians of Christendom. …they read the Bible just as we Gentile Christians do. They claim soul salvation in the Lord and evangelize. They will be called home in the rapture with the any and all that are saved. Still the majority of Jews do not yet believe Jesus is the Messiah. Scripture tells us Jews will turn to the Lord through the Tribulation.

 

You can google and see Christian Jews in:

 

. Jews for Jesus

. Christian Jews

. Zola Levitt Ministries

 

I know, but it is my point that once you abandon Judaism, you are no longer Jewish. Being Jewish is not an ethnicity, although many people would like it to be.

 

 

Jews saved loose nothing only gain in the Lord. We are the ones grafted into .

---Its we the Gentiles who; are grafted into the Jewish tree. In order for Gentiles to become heirs with Abraham and inheritors of this world forever they must become adopted children into the family of Abraham. (Jeremiah 12:16).

 

The scripture in affirmation of this Truth is also found in the same chapter of Galations 3:16, where we are told "the promises are made to Abraham and his seed."

 

The conclusion of this chapter reads, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for ye. Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Verses 28,29) This is speaking of the very same promise introduced in verse 16 of this chapters given above.

 

---The Gentiles are inheritors of these promises through Christ. This verse reads in full:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to the seeds as many but as one, and to thy seed which is Christ." Then the further explanation is given in the concluding verses of his chapter as quoted above. Gentiles are inheritors only through Christ, and it says:

"If ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs.

 

http://www.therefinersfire.org/salvation_for_gentiles.html

 

 

I am sure you believe that, but Jews who still believe as Jews think that your religion is pagan, polytheistic, and wrong. Just because some Jews can be convinced does not mean that you are right. People convert to Judaism too, you know.

 

It also needs to be pointed out that there is a TIME-frame attached to a harvest from the Gentiles. The promise in Romans 11:26 that "all Israel will be saved", is preceded by the following warning to Gentiles in verse 25,

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

 

End-time Bible teachers who realize the relevance of Israel, perceive this turning point in history, when God shifted his involvement from the salvation of the Gentiles to that of the Jews, to be the time of the rebirth of the State of Israel in 1948. It is, nevertheless, clear that this transition is effected over a period of time since Jerusalem is still in part being trampled by the Gentiles, in line with the prediction in Luke 21:24,

 

.....Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

We'll see, I'm sure. Can anyone else see the magical thinking in all of this? God shifting his priorities, people trampling on Jerusalem, human should being harvested...Am I the only one who thinks that is just weird?

 

I will say that I am a staunch supporter of Israel, so I am not one of the ones trampling on Jerusalem. I do think that the three big religions that came from there are sick and false. Most religions are just false, though.

 

[Awesome. So I have a thousand years of being a bellhop to look forward to.]

 

Bellhop,,, ouch too funny….

Know that we saved will all have our place in the Lord. We will all serve the Lord in some way and be so thankful we are…

 

I don't want to be a bellhop, or a waiter. I want to work in Human Resources. But, I guess Jesus won't let me choose. Bummer.

 

No, I’m not planning on being here. I was lost but now I’m found.

Still many are lost and should be… could be with the Lord.

Jesus is the way the truth and the life and if any that believe in Him call upon His name asking Him into their heart. They shall be saved. Salvation is free; it’s for any and all. Only just ask.

 

You are not planning on being here. But you pay your bills, right? You plan for the future, don't you? Doesn't that show a lack of faith on your part, as Jesus could take you up ANY SECOND NOW?

 

God Bless*

 

Certainly.

[Topper]

It is interesting that on one hand Paul says you don't have to follow Jewish Lew to be a follower of Jesus and on the other says that you are a grated to the tree of Abraham.

I still can't fined one think other then what was written by Paul that says that Christians are exempt from the laws of moses.

I still say that in order to be a true follower of Jesus you must first be Jewish. You must give up your pagan Holidays. You must give up the notion that Paul Knew more then Jesus. Jesus never gave up his Jewish Faith. So why does the Christan Chruch?

[quankanne]

Benny Hinn and disciples who preach false hope: those guys fall under the "smoke and mirrors" segment of believers – those who pin their faith on a certain outcome. True faith accepts the will of God, not imposes will on God; i.e., their strength of faith comes with staying the dialogue with Him even when things are going crappy around them. Telling that couple their little one died because their faith wasn't strong enough was a misleading spirituality, based on their relationship with their pastor and his claiims to heal, and not putting faith in God's will.

 

there's also a sense of discernment that needs to come into play: Is that child dying without any sense of physical healing? Are medical advances prolonging his life without necessarily provide an opportunity for healing, or are they hopeful safegards put into place until "something" better comes along? Look at the final days of John Paul II, and those of Terry Schiavo – one let his life play out according to God's will, the other was the victim of legal wrangling that pitted families against each other because everyone felt they knew the right decision for her.

 

Being Jewish is not an ethnicity, although many people would like it to be.

 

maybe the better word would be "cultural identity," rather than "ethnicity," because it's a way of life they have embraced so much so that everything is affected (food, belief system, lifestyle, marriage/dating, etc) ...

 

I still say that in order to be a true follower of Jesus you must first be Jewish. You must give up your pagan Holidays. You must give up the notion that Paul Knew more then Jesus. Jesus never gave up his Jewish Faith. So why does the Christan Chruch?

 

to be a true follower of Jesus (i.e. a Christian, or "Christ-like"), you give up your old ways, whatever they are. Jesus can't have given up his faith to become like himself: He led the movement, therefore he couldn't expect to be leader AND follower.

[Topper]

quankanne,

Jesus did say that you should obey the law. that is the laws of Moses. Never once did Jesus renounce his Jewish Faith. He never said i'm here to start a new religion.

It is only Paul who says it is OK to give up Kosher Law and other Jewish Doctrine to be a follower of Jesus. Paul did this on his own and against the wishes of the Chruch in Jerusalem that was headed by the brother of Jesus James. since the Catholic chruch maintains that Mary wasa Virgin her whole life they say that James was a cousin of Jesus.

[sb129]

Including the ever-growing number 666."

 

Ummm. How can 666 be ever growing? If it gets bigger, it becomes 667. Or 668, 669, etc etc.

 

Oh good. I haven't met one person ever who claimed to be Christ.

I have. LSD works its magic in mysterious ways. He sure felt like a twat when he came down.

 

And then there are those of us not sitting on the fence at all, but rejecting the whole thing.

No, I am probably the most strident atheist you will ever interact with. I don't for a second think any of this is going to happen, now, in a few years from now, or EVER.

I don't believe that the world is going to end in 2012, either (I think the Mayans suggest that.)

In order to believe in god, I would require a very big sign. The Rapture would certainly qualify. Just because I acknowledge that it doesn't follow that I remotely consider it a possibility.

Ah, believe now and get rewarded LATER. Neat trick. With an idea like that it would be pretty easy to control people who bought it, no?

Awesome. So I have a thousand years of being a bellhop to look forward to.

If someone doesn't believe in Jesus in the first place everything you are posting is just meaningless superstition and nonsense.

 

Oh Moai.. ((((prostrates herself)))))

I loved that post. I am in your gang for sure.

 

If i wanted to be wealthy and not really care what I said i would start a chruch. Start saying that the end times are near. make some stuff kind of fit bible prophecy and claim some inside info right from the source.

yeap i could put on a $2000 suit, get up on stage and preach the end times. Of course I would also need a bad Toupee and a wife with big Hair.

 

Enter Mr Joseph Smith. Founder of one of the biggest religions in the US: Mormonism. Another made up religion. He also was a randy old bastard, so funnily enough, God told him that you CAN shag more than one woman without it being adultery, you just marry them all!

Strangely, the law never came round to his way of thinking.

 

And it would seem that despite the celeb following, L.RonHubbards aliens from space theories don't convince me of anything except he is another megalomaniac of the highest order.

 

Dateline or a similar show just did a story on the $$$ in religion. Mansions, private jets, big hair wife with tons of mascara.

 

Don't forget to get caught sinning (under age hookers and gay acts) and then repent so you can get more money when your cash flow starts slowing down a bit.

 

 

Another song from the sb129 archives... construe what you will.

Welcome to your life

There's no turning back

Even while we sleep

We will find you acting on your best behavior

Turn your back on Mother Nature

Everybody wants to rule the world.

 

It's my own design

It's my own remorse

Help me to decide

Help me make the most

Of freedom and of pleasure

Nothing ever lasts forever

Everybody wants to rule the world.

 

There's a room where the light won't find you

Holding hands while the walls come tumbling down

When they do I'll be right behind you.

So glad we've almost made it

So sad they had to fade it

Everybody wants to rule the world.

 

I can't stand this indecision

Married with a lack of vision

Everybody wants to rule the world

Say that you'll never never never never need it

One headline why believe it?

Everybody wants to rule the world.

 

All for freedom and for pleasure

Nothing ever lasts forever

Everybody wants to rule the world.

[Moai]

Benny Hinn and disciples who preach false hope: those guys fall under the "smoke and mirrors" segment of believers – those who pin their faith on a certain outcome. True faith accepts the will of God, not imposes will on God; i.e., their strength of faith comes with staying the dialogue with Him even when things are going crappy around them. Telling that couple their little one died because their faith wasn't strong enough was a misleading spirituality, based on their relationship with their pastor and his claiims to heal, and not putting faith in God's will.

 

That is all well and good, but they get their reasoning from the Bible. The Bible says that nothing is impossible for those with faith. Here's a quote:

 

Matthew 7:7

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

 

Matthew 17:20

 

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

 

Clearly, scripture says that whatever you ask god to do, He will do. There are more verses than just these that say this. If that is not the case, why pray at all? "God, I would really like it if I could have what I am asking for, but if it isn't your will that's fine." What is the point of that prayer?

 

They did not pin their faith on a certain outcome. The Indian couple, Benny Hinn, and all those like him are as firm in their belief as ever. They blame themselves for the failure, because it is obvious to them that they didn't have enough faith. If they had, their son would not have died. And Benny Hinn didn't tell them that, they figured it out on their own. Benny Hinn didn't bother to check on the family after he left Portland--he chalked it up as another successful healing and moved on. So did everyone else in the auditorium that night. Not one person that was there has thought to check on any of the healings that took place. If they did, they would see that none of them were real. Not one. But why challenge my faith, when it makes me feel so good?

 

Benny Hinn doesn't claim to heal people. He claims that the Holy Spirit heals people, THROUGH him. Just like the apostles healed people.

 

Their faith is not only delusional, it is unassailable.

 

You also beg the question: why it would be the will of god for a child to be born with a brain disorder that is fatal? What you suggest is that god used the boy to test the faith of the parents, or something like that. He may even have done all that to show that faith healing is impossible. Why he has to do that over and over and over--and do it to children is beyond me, but there it is.

 

If I were to kidnap a child and torture it in order to "test" the parents, I would be considered one of the most wicked men who ever lived. But God does it, it is His Will, you can't understand it, just trust Him and everything will be ok. Since god can't be wicked, there must have been a good reason for him to afflict the boy like this. Go pray and stop asking questions.

 

Does that about sum it up?

 

there's also a sense of discernment that needs to come into play: Is that child dying without any sense of physical healing? Are medical advances prolonging his life without necessarily provide an opportunity for healing, or are they hopeful safegards put into place until "something" better comes along? Look at the final days of John Paul II, and those of Terry Schiavo – one let his life play out according to God's will, the other was the victim of legal wrangling that pitted families against each other because everyone felt they knew the right decision for her.

Huh? What is a "sense of physical healing"? The boy's life sucked, but it was still better than nothing. And yes, new drugs and treatments were coming out all the time that could have helped the boy even more.

 

And I'm glad you brought up Terry Schaivo. She was in a vegetative state. Without medical science, she would have died within days of her collapse. But modern science could keep her alive for decades with machines. If you bring up the God's Will argument, was it God's Will that she die when he afflicted her, or was it his will that she spend the rest of her life on a machine, with no brain activity? How do you know?

 

It seems to me that if you consider god's will at all, medicine could be illegal. It is god's will that you get cancer, it is god's will that gangrene set in and you die, it is god's will that women undergo pain in childbirth. Lest you think I am being facetious, church leaders have suggested exactly that at different times. They are doing that RIGHT NOW.

 

But they aren't True Christians. Their doctrines are obviously false, even though they believe as fervently as you do in the very same book that you do. Not one believer has ever answered this question. How can this be? If the Holy Spirit fills all who ask, and the Holy Spirit is what you need to understand the Bible, why 1500 different interpretations?

 

maybe the better word would be "cultural identity," rather than "ethnicity," because it's a way of life they have embraced so much so that everything is affected (food, belief system, lifestyle, marriage/dating, etc) ...

Yes, because that is what god told them to do. I've read their book. They aren't kidding around about it, nor are they making it up as they go along.

 

I still say that in order to be a true follower of Jesus you must first be Jewish. You must give up your pagan Holidays. You must give up the notion that Paul Knew more then Jesus. Jesus never gave up his Jewish Faith. So why does the Christan Chruch?

I didn't write this, but it is spot on. If you look at Christian beliefs they derivate from pagan myths so obviously it is nonsensical to think that the ideas are "new" or "different." Christianity is nothing more than a reworking of ancient pagan religions.

 

That said, I wouldn't be Jewish, either, as their god makes just as much sense. But at least it was new.

to be a true follower of Jesus (i.e. a Christian, or "Christ-like"), you give up your old ways, whatever they are. Jesus can't have given up his faith to become like himself: He led the movement, therefore he couldn't expect to be leader AND follower.

He shouldn't expect to be his own father, either, but it is clear that he thought he was.

[Moai]

 

Oh Moai.. ((((prostrates herself)))))

I loved that post. I am in your gang for sure.

 

Thanks doll!

[sb129]

As I have said on other threads, I have a MAJOR problem with "faith" healers.

 

To me they are the WORST kind of scam artists, and should be locked up for toying with peoples emotions the way that they do.

 

I have a very close family member who became severely disabled thru an accident.

 

If Benny Hinn came anywhere near him with his phony bullsh*t I swear i would kill him with my bare hands. My family has been thru enough trauma without hearing the trumped up claims of a religious zealot who rips off peoples wallets and their souls.

 

NOTHING will restore my family member to being able bodied. Modern medicine is close, but its not there yet, and when it gets there, it will concentrate on newly injured people, because that is where it will bemost effective. Modenr medicine did save his life however, for without it, we wouldn't have had the resources to help him live a relatively normal life.

 

I can't help but think that LH and LB are viewing life through such rose tinted spectacles, and have had no experience of true pain. If I am wrong, please correct me, but your naivety shines thru in your posts.

 

"oh if someone i live gets permanently disabled, thats gods will"

 

Yeah right.

[quankanne]

Ummm. How can 666 be ever growing? If it gets bigger, it becomes 667. Or 668, 669, etc etc

 

:laugh: :laugh: literalist!

 

Jesus did say that you should obey the law. that is the laws of Moses. Never once did Jesus renounce his Jewish Faith. He never said i'm here to start a new religion. It is only Paul who says it is OK to give up Kosher Law and other Jewish Doctrine to be a follower of Jesus. Paul did this on his own and against the wishes of the Chruch in Jerusalem that was headed by the brother of Jesus, James. since the Catholic chruch maintains that Mary wasa Virgin her whole life they say that James was a cousin of Jesus.

 

Mary and her perpetual virginity – read the last Ann Rice book, where she talks about the research she did for it (Christ the Lord Out of Egypt), it does a bang up job explaining how people consecrated themselves to God in those days (and they still do, fyi) ... that it wouldn't be out of the question for Mary, in her consecrated state, to remain virginal in all senses of the word if we accept both the incarnation and the immaculate conception.

 

yep, it was Paul, a Jewish convert, in his way of following Christ's example, that set the tone for the Christian faith. I imagine if the original Twelve had the same kind of impact on the faith that Paul did, what we define and practice as Christian would be way different. When Jesus said he came to show us a more perfect way, Paul – who'd never met the guy in person*– who gave us the traditions we hold these many centuries later. Jesus couldn't follow a tradition that he was not physically around for, nor would it have made sense for him to follow when he was the example being upheld. ¿Entiendes?

[Moai]

As I have said on other threads, I have a MAJOR problem with "faith" healers.

 

To me they are the WORST kind of scam artists, and should be locked up for toying with peoples emotions the way that they do.

 

I have a very close family member who became severely disabled thru an accident.

 

If Benny Hinn came anywhere near him with his phony bullsh*t I swear i would kill him with my bare hands. My family has been thru enough trauma without hearing the trumped up claims of a religious zealot who rips off peoples wallets and their souls.

 

NOTHING will restore my family member to being able bodied. Modern medicine is close, but its not there yet, and when it gets there, it will concentrate on newly injured people, because that is where it will bemost effective. Modenr medicine did save his life however, for without it, we wouldn't have had the resources to help him live a relatively normal life.

 

I can't help but think that LH and LB are viewing life through such rose tinted spectacles, and have had no experience of true pain. If I am wrong, please correct me, but your naivety shines thru in your posts.

 

"oh if someone i live gets permanently disabled, thats gods will"

 

Yeah right.

 

I am sorry to hear about your loved one.

 

I would like to add that stem-cell research is the best hope we have of helping and possibly curing people with brain trauma, paralysis, extensive burns, etc. But because those 150 cells in that dish have a soul, we cannot pursue it.

 

Believers would rather people suffer here and now with little or no hope of a cure than to allow life-giving research, and all because of their belief in a soul--which is not provable. Does the soul enter at conception? How do you know? What do you use as evidence?

 

The answers are "yes", "faith tells me so" and "The Bible".

 

Sam Harris, one of my heroes brought up the point that when you scratch your nose, you are committing a Holocaust, because with modern cloning techniques each cell you kill could be a potential human being. The Horror! It is that same rationale that prevents stem-cell research.

 

Isn't faith great?

[burning 4 revenge]

You would be right.

 

I think that religion in general is harmful and dangerous, and Christianity is one that is at the top of the list. It is certainly one of the best if you want to do evil, and its members excel at it.

I don't know. It has been obsolete since the Age of Reason, but I think it was a pretty good step forward from the pagan world that preceded it. And Christianity isn't purely paganism reworded, it has a lot of its essential Judaism guiding its ethics.

[Moai]

I don't know. It has been obsolete since the Age of Reason, but I think it was a pretty good step forward from the pagan world that preceded it. And Christianity isn't purely paganism reworded, it has a lot of its essential Judaism guiding its ethics.

 

But it is just as pagan. It has just HAD to morph into what we see by science and reasoning.

 

Heaven and Hell were real places, set apart from us only by distance. When Galileo showed that the Earth revolves around the Sun, he was threatened with death, because it showed a cherished pagan belief to be untrue.

 

When we started building telescopes, we found that we are in a solar system, and that there was no "Heaven" in the sky as described in the Bible. So, Heaven changed and became a "spiritual" place, instead of a real one.

 

It was once thought that demons made us sick, and that a holy man could cast them out and cure you. Now we understand disease, so demons no longer make people sick. They have changed into things that tempt you away from belief in the supernatural, and such.

 

Christianity did not provide these ideas, these ideas advanced IN SPITE of it.

 

Being part man and part god is a pagan idea. There are many men who were described as such before Jesus. Why are those myths and Jesus is not?

 

There were also many who performed miracles, healed the sick, cured the blind and rose from the dead in pagan religions. But those are myths but Jesus is not.

 

I can't come up with one instance where the Church--any church--was behind a new scientific discovery at its outset. They were, and are, opposed to all of them.

[quankanne]

they get their reasoning from the Bible … clearly, scripture says that whatever you ask god to do, He will do. … If that is not the case, why pray at all? "God, I would really like it if I could have what I am asking for, but if it isn't your will that's fine." What is the point of that prayer?

 

the point of prayer is to enter into dialogue with God the same way you'd use the written and spoken word to communicate with another person. Now, you can petition God the same way you'd petition your buddy, but isn't the larger part of asking your friend for help or money or a ride to work knowing that you can unhesitatingly ask for any of these things? Because no matter what the answer is, you still trust that person to approach him, that he will do whatever he can as he is able? We don't expect our friends to play the role of Santa Claus in our lives, giving whenever we stick our hands out, and us always expecting to receive because they're our friend. We accept the reality of them being able to do what they are able. Yet we expect God to be a cosmic Santa, then hold it against him when he "refuses" to deliver. That's not a true relationship then.

 

... the whole thing about faith is knowing that regardless of the outcome, you can approach God for anything.

 

The Indian couple blame themselves for the failure, because it is obvious to them that they didn't have enough faith. If they had, their son would not have died.

 

that's faulty rationale, then. There's no guarantee that a medical treatment found in the nick of time that would prolong his life indefinitely, because there is no such thing as human immortality. Faith has nothing to do with "stopping" death, and everything to do with how you deal with life.

 

Benny Hinn doesn't claim to heal people. He claims that the Holy Spirit heals people, THROUGH him. Just like the apostles healed people.

 

interestingly enough, it's people like Hinn that reap the glory, not God; God gets blamed for when things go wrong because people are afraid to own up to their mortality.

 

why it would be the will of god for a child to be born with a brain disorder that is fatal? ... Why he has to do that over and over and over--and do it to children is beyond me, but there it is.

 

why are you limiting that child to his fatal illness? There's more value to his life than just that ... our human imperfections are designed to lead us to the discovery of the spiritual perfection in which God has created us.

 

like the question, "Why am I here? Who am I?" The spiritually dead person doesn't care to find an answer because his temporal life – with trappings of money and hot babes and "stuff – is enough to appease him. Those who yearn for an answer start looking beyond those trappings into a spiritual realm. Regardless of religious identity, they hear that call, and they seek the source.

 

it doesn't stop wars from being waged or little kids from being molested or people dying from dreadful diseases, but then again it's not meant to do that. What it does is inspire us to act on those desires to make things better around us even though we understand we may not conquer those probems. *that's* why we pray. To have the strength to keep on keepin' on ...

[burning 4 revenge]

Being part man and part god is a pagan idea. There are many men who were described as such before Jesus. Why are those myths and Jesus is not?

 

There were also many who performed miracles, healed the sick, cured the blind and rose from the dead in pagan religions. But those are myths but Jesus is not.

Well there is the mythical Jesus which is the one we know and the possibility (and I think probability) of a historical character in there somewhere.

 

Many of the miracles and aspects of the tradition come from Mithras and Dionysus amongst others, but much of ethical teachings and apocalypticism are completely Jewish. It really is a blending of Hellenistic and Judaic cultures.

[quankanne]

And I'm glad you brought up Terry Schaivo. She was in a vegetative state. Without medical science, she would have died within days of her collapse. But modern science could keep her alive for decades with machines. If you bring up the God's Will argument, was it God's Will that she die when he afflicted her, or was it his will that she spend the rest of her life on a machine, with no brain activity? How do you know?

 

her case haunts me, because what *is* the right answer? A hospice nurse explained to me that we all have our natural time of leaving, that the body prepares itself for death naturally, and that no one should have interrupted that process for Schiavo when that process first kicked in. And I agree with that. But because someone made the decision to take heroic measures to save her life by hooking her up to a machine, that process was circumvented. Do we ask for a chance to back in time and stress the need for her to get that DNR order signed the minute she decided that she didn't want any extra measures taken to prolong her life? Should we have allowed her to slip away at the first sign of serious infection after she was strapped to the machines? Keep her hooked up indefinitely, waiting for the "right" moment to pull the plug?

 

any way you look at it, you're still looking at the dignity of a human life, even as it faces medical crisis. As you ask, how do you know what the right thing was to do?

 

It seems to me that if you consider God's will at all, medicine could be illegal. It is God's will that you get cancer, it is God's will that gangrene set in and you die, it is god's will that women undergo pain in childbirth. Lest you think I am being facetious, church leaders have suggested exactly that at different times. They are doing that RIGHT NOW.

 

again, this is where discernment comes in. Is that medical treatment going to prolong the person's life? Is it going to give him a better quality of life? Is it just going to delay the inevitable, is he already past the point of no return in the dying process? To suggest that it's God's will to suffer needlessly when there's a chance of positive medical treatment is faulty thinking – it's akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And I think those church leaders realize this, but are too far sucked up in their own sense of self-aggrandizement to allow the will of God to truly work.