Tribulation on earth.

[quankanne]

I would like to add that stem-cell research is the best hope we have of helping and possibly curing people with brain trauma, paralysis, extensive burns, etc. But because those 150 cells in that dish have a soul, we cannot pursue it.

 

if you want to offer hope for those people with debilitating illnesses, why are you putting all your eggs into just one basket? Are fetal stem cells the only viable option, or are there others? What is the most dependable medium for cooking up these cures? Is it just limited to stem cells from a those trashed tissues? Isn't there endless opportunity for the blood/matter from umbilical cords? It's kind of like saying that the ONLY thing that will make all motors run is high octane gasoline ...

[Moai]

the point of prayer is to enter into dialogue with God the same way you'd use the written and spoken word to communicate with another person.

 

Really? A dialog? What does god's voice sound like? How does he answer you? How can you be sure that it is god who is answering?

 

Now, you can petition God the same way you'd petition your buddy, but isn't the larger part of asking your friend for help or money or a ride to work knowing that you can unhesitatingly ask for any of these things?

 

Um, no. The larger part is I need the ride or the money. I also know that my buddy WILL do what I ask him if he can. You don't know that for god. In fact, if the prayer is not arbitrary, god NEVER answers you.

 

Because no matter what the answer is, you still trust that person to approach him, that he will do whatever he can as he is able? We don't expect our friends to play the role of Santa Claus in our lives, giving whenever we stick our hands out, and us always expecting to receive because they're our friend. We accept the reality of them being able to do what they are able. Yet we expect God to be a cosmic Santa, then hold it against him when he "refuses" to deliver. That's not a true relationship then.

 

Wrong. God IS Santa. God can do ANYTHING. My buddy can't. And my buddy never promised to give me anything I asked for, but god did. Why do you ignore this point. The Bible says that's the way it is. We both know it is because the Bible is wrong, and that for God to answer prayers as promised is impossible. Because you can't admit that is so (but anyone who reads the Bible can clearly see that it is), you concoct this "relationship" idea.

 

But god says that if a believer says "move" to a mountain it will move. Doesn't get much clearer than that.

 

... the whole thing about faith is knowing that regardless of the outcome, you can approach God for anything.

 

Meaningless. Anyone can come up to me and ask me for a million dollars, too, and get the same result. What good is that? Just the enjoyment of asking?

 

that's faulty rationale, then. There's no guarantee that a medical treatment found in the nick of time that would prolong his life indefinitely, because there is no such thing as human immortality. Faith has nothing to do with "stopping" death, and everything to do with how you deal with life.

 

It is true that there is no guarantee. And I don't postulate immortality in any way, shape or form. You have got that covered. However, if the child had the medicine he would have lived one more day. Two more days. Maybe even a year. He has an infinitely greater chance of receiving a treatment if he is alive than he does if he is dead. How is that reasoning faulty?

 

What do you mean faith has nothing to do with "stopping" death? Why do people pray for their loved ones to get better? Not all diseases are fatal, but a lot of them are if they aren't treated. And believers forgo treatment in favor of faith-based cures. And lo and behold, the person dies.

 

I will paraphrase Sam Harris again: Imagine the old woman who, in escaping the flood waters of Katrina scrambling to he basement, praying to her god to save her, ever hopeful that he will, even as the waters rise and snuff out her life. According to you she should have known better than to pray for help, that's not what prayer is for. I wonder how her "dialog" with god was as the cold water lapped at her legs.

 

It is clear that you think that those who pray for a faith-healing are wrong. But you don't address the core point: the Bible says that you can pray for those things. The Bible says you can ask God for ANYTHING and it will be granted. It doesn't say anything about setting up a dialog.

 

This is another instance where the belief must change to fit the facts. You know as well as I do that God never heals anybody, and that prayers answered are actually random events, and happen in exactly the numbers we would expect based on probability. But you need to save prayer, so you change the rules. That's cool if that works for you, but the Bible says differently. And we both know you can't very well change that.

 

interestingly enough, it's people like Hinn that reap the glory, not God; God gets blamed for when things go wrong because people are afraid to own up to their mortality.

 

The opposite is true. God gets all the credit, but none of the blame. If someone gets better, it is because god answered their prayer, or it was god's will that they survive. If they die or get worse, it is because the believer lacks faith, or that they must learn some lesson, or that they don't correctly understand god's will.

 

I am not aware of anyone blaming god for anything in the examples I gave. I have never heard of a believer blaming god for anything.

 

why are you limiting that child to his fatal illness? There's more value to his life than just that ... our human imperfections are designed to lead us to the discovery of the spiritual perfection in which God has created us.

 

I am not "limiting" the child to anything. The child could barely breathe on his own, could not speak, could not clean himself, could not eat solid food, or move any part of his body. He communicated with his parents using eye signals. Yes or no, basically.

 

That's awesome that he was given such a wonderful test to discover spiritual perfection! God is truly good.

 

How am I limiting the child by recognizing the horrible agony he was enduring--lessened to a great deal by modern medicine, by the way. Modern medicine got him largely off of tube feeding toward the end of his life. What did faith do for him? It killed him.

 

I find your above paragraph offensive, frankly.

 

like the question, "Why am I here? Who am I?" The spiritually dead person doesn't care to find an answer because his temporal life – with trappings of money and hot babes and "stuff – is enough to appease him. Those who yearn for an answer start looking beyond those trappings into a spiritual realm. Regardless of religious identity, they hear that call, and they seek the source.

 

Nope. It is nice that you believe that, but it is entirely false. "Why am I here?" and "who am I" are answered by the individual, even you. Every human being asks themselves these questions at some point, and every human being gets different answers. It just so happens that within the framework of our culture, many people find them in their religious delusions.

 

Christians are amongst the most materialistic people on Earth. You have a computer, and if you are in the US I would assume that you have at least one car, a stereo, probably an mp3 player, a hi-def TV, and a microwave. Most of these you would consider necessities, yet most of the rest of the world doesn't have any of that.

 

I'm sure you're going to tell me about all the stuff you personally don't have, and that's fine. But 94% of the US identifies themselves as Christian. Somebody is keeping Best Buy, Circuit City, Walmart, and General Motors in business.

 

I don't think that money can buy happiness. I don't sleep with lots of "babes" and I don't have that much "stuff." How can this be, considering your above assertion?

 

Certainly there are people who like those things, and those things give meaning to their life. More power to them.

 

it doesn't stop wars from being waged or little kids from being molested or people dying from dreadful diseases, but then again it's not meant to do that. What it does is inspire us to act on those desires to make things better around us even though we understand we may not conquer those probems. *that's* why we pray. To have the strength to keep on keepin' on ...

 

I have that same strength, and yet I never pray. I don't need prayer or a belief in god to try to stop what I see as wrong in the world, and improve things for everyone everywhere. Why do you need prayer for those things--or as you put it, "to keep on keeping on"?

 

You believe in the afterlife. I do not. Which of us values life more? I know that you get one shot, and that this is all there is, so you had better make the most of it. One shot is all anyone else gets, so I should make their shot as positive as possible, too.

 

You, on the other hand, don't have to work all that hard at it because if the person is saved, they are going someplace better, and whatever trials and woes they go through are all part of God's Grand Scheme, so you need not worry too much about it.

[Moai]

her case haunts me, because what *is* the right answer? A hospice nurse explained to me that we all have our natural time of leaving, that the body prepares itself for death naturally, and that no one should have interrupted that process for Schiavo when that process first kicked in.

 

And a hospice nurse has this opinion because....?

 

Before her coma could be studied, doctors did not know if she would be able to recover or not. So they hooked her up to machines and tried to revive her. They realized that it was hopeless and discerned that it would be best to take her off life support. Then, the church stepped in and said no way, it is god's will that she be on a machine. Great.

 

Is this hospice nurse trained in ethics and morality? What does she know that brain surgeons do not? Perhaps you should let the AMA know about her so that they will call her if a case like this ever comes up again.

 

And I agree with that. But because someone made the decision to take heroic measures to save her life by hooking her up to a machine, that process was circumvented. Do we ask for a chance to back in time and stress the need for her to get that DNR order signed the minute she decided that she didn't want any extra measures taken to prolong her life? Should we have allowed her to slip away at the first sign of serious infection after she was strapped to the machines? Keep her hooked up indefinitely, waiting for the "right" moment to pull the plug?

 

Doctors followed the procedures that are called for in her situation. The machines that she was hooked up to fed her and kept her hydrated, that's it. Otherwise her body was working fine.

 

When someone comes into emergency with a severed arm and is rapidly bleeding to death, should the doctors try to stem the flow of blood, or should they just let the person bleed out? What about the person's quality of life? Who would want to live with only one arm? Maybe it would be best to let nature take its course and let the person die. God's will.

 

any way you look at it, you're still looking at the dignity of a human life, even as it faces medical crisis. As you ask, how do you know what the right thing was to do?

 

Easy. You do whatever you can to save every life that needs care. And when we reach the limits of that care, you must accept the consequences. Terry Schaivo was brain-dead. Her body just didn't know that. The doctors just let her body find that out, as it were.

 

again, this is where discernment comes in. Is that medical treatment going to prolong the person's life? Is it going to give him a better quality of life? Is it just going to delay the inevitable, is he already past the point of no return in the dying process? To suggest that it's God's will to suffer needlessly when there's a chance of positive medical treatment is faulty thinking – it's akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And I think those church leaders realize this, but are too far sucked up in their own sense of self-aggrandizement to allow the will of God to truly work.

 

You dodge the question. Why is there medical science to begin with? Medical treatment advances with alarming speed. People survive injuries and diseases now that would have been fatal even twenty years ago. This is due to experimental treatments, experimentation, and hard work.

 

What if they are past where medical science can help them, but unless assisted they will live for many months before finally dying? Are you saying that you agree with assisted suicide? There are still many diseases that cause lingering, painful death and there is nothing medical science can do about it, save make the patient as comfortable as possible. It is clear that god does, indeed, want people to suffer needlessly.

[Moai]

I would like to add that stem-cell research is the best hope we have of helping and possibly curing people with brain trauma, paralysis, extensive burns, etc. But because those 150 cells in that dish have a soul, we cannot pursue it.

 

if you want to offer hope for those people with debilitating illnesses, why are you putting all your eggs into just one basket? Are fetal stem cells the only viable option, or are there others? What is the most dependable medium for cooking up these cures? Is it just limited to stem cells from a those trashed tissues? Isn't there endless opportunity for the blood/matter from umbilical cords? It's kind of like saying that the ONLY thing that will make all motors run is high octane gasoline ...

 

All the eggs aren't in one basket, as it were. So far, stem cell research is our best bet. There is no other "egg." I am sure in time other ideas will come to the fore--but how long that will be is anyone's guess. Stem cell research can help people right now, not thirty years from now. But, those with faith would rather the poor girl with third degree burns over 90% of her body suffer, and protect 150 cells with no nerve endings. Yep, that's a good idea. Totally rational and airtight logic.

 

And your gasoline analogy is faulty. We must try what will give us the best chance at working. Other research has not stopped, but to not allow some research to even start is nonsensical, especially considering the only argument against it is a spiritual one.

 

To take your octane analogy further, there are octanes that will NOT make a motor work. There are some that will make the motor work, kind of, as it will sputter and miss. So what you are saying is ignore the high octane readily available in favor of an inferior fuel because it doesn't offend anyone's superstition.

 

The correct analogy would be to use milk in your tank instead of gas, since gas is spiritually wrong. Milk won't work, but at least there is something in your tank.

[Moai]

Well there is the mythical Jesus which is the one we know and the possibility (and I think probability) of a historical character in there somewhere.

 

Many of the miracles and aspects of the tradition come from Mithras and Dionysus amongst others, but much of ethical teachings and apocalypticism are completely Jewish. It really is a blending of Hellenistic and Judaic cultures.

 

That is true. I am one of those who thinks that Jesus probably existed, but there are certainly those who disagree.

 

I think that there are more than just Hellenistic and Judaic cultures in there. And very little of the Judaic at that.

 

It's funny, but the Christianity that survived to make it here was the one who had people kill for it and stamp out the other sects that called themselves "Christian", too.

[pricillia]

Doritio bag... LOL

[pricillia]

But also too much time deciding who is wrong and who is right and not dealing with human beings

[Love Hurts]

The Tribulation is a winepress

This is the last and final chance for any and all that will come to Christ.

Fence Riders...they know who they are...they know of Christ.

They know the word of God. Yet have not made the decision to receive Him as Lord and Savior.

Many more come to Christ though the Tribulation.

 

see, this flies completely in the face of the catechism I learned, about how we "wait in joyful hope of the coming of our Savior," because it instills a sense of fear. And I have a huge concern about people thinking God wants us to come to him out of fear, rather than love and acceptance.

 

I am speaking of the Tribulation of seven years.

It is the last final chance for any and all that will come to Christ.

Its an awareness of truth …….if people want to pee their pants so be it.

Many will laugh and still reject…

 

If you believe the word of God… He comes in Rev. 19 for battle and any that have taken the mark or worshipped the beast are cast into the lake of fire.

 

[quankanne]

Moai, you're reading but not really hearing what I'm trying to say because you're over-arguing a point that I agree with: that you do the best you can to ensure a person's quality of life, but you accept the outcome of that treatment – whether it means a dead end or it provides another avenue for more cure. That's what accepting God's will is about, not being churlish by saying, "well, let the person who lost an arm bleed to death because that's 'God's will,'" because you're missing the whole point of respecting the dignity of life. Ironic, when you think about the jerks who waged war in the name of God, who started the Inquisition in the name of faith, who told people to drink purple Kool Aid in the name of Jesus, but those people were abusing the relationship people have with God.

 

if anything, common sense tells you to respect life to a point where you defend it. Like with the case of the parents who denied their child treatment. They thought they were doing the right thing because they were being faithful, but the right thing meant protecting the life of their child, not denying life-ensuring treatment.

 

Really? A dialog? What does God's voice sound like? How does he answer you? How can you be sure that it is God who is answering?

 

who are you, who has no idea of me, to suggest that what I have isn't real dialogue with God? But since you asked, I can tell you that he answers me with constant assurance that I am his and he is mine. And really, that's all that I need. No fanfares, though I get them when I look around me; no special treatment, though he has given me that, too, when I've most needed it. I guess the simplest way of explaining that my faith is to me what breathing is to others – it's innate.

 

Christians are amongst the most materialistic people on Earth. You have a computer, and if you are in the US I would assume that you have at least one car, a stereo, probably an mp3 player, a hi-def TV, and a microwave. Most of these you would consider necessities, yet most of the rest of the world doesn't have any of that.

 

just the car and stereo, dear; the rest I can live happily without

 

And a hospice nurse has this opinion because....? I asked her point-blank during an interview when we talked about death and dying and what the Church teaches about medicine and moral responsibility. In that instance, she was the authority because she has a health background and is versed on the Catholic Church's stance on euthanasia and related issues. Ugh, as for another comment you made, no, I don't believe in assisted suicide because it plays into an unnatural fear we've fostered about the dying process.

[Love Hurts]

I don't like the idea of our constitutional rights being violated any more than you do--especially since I will be among the first to be locked up. You do realize, I hope, that the Bill of Rights (and the amendments that follow) is a SECULAR document, right?

 

It's funny, but I think that freedom of thought is paramount, and I would die before I let someone force you to think and believe in a different way. I will do my best to convince you that your beliefs are irrational and should be abandoned, but I cherish your right to believe as you do.

 

Pity you do not feel the same, nor does your God. I go to Hell because I believed incorrectly, after all.

 

Would you fight against a theocracy, one that was run by believers like you? Would you protect my right to NOT believe? Given the glee with which you would welcome Jesus smiting the unbelievers, I have my doubts.

 

 

The bill of rights:

 

Created by man

 

God foretells the beginning from the end.

 

Satan is the iniquity at work even now

-----------

We can separate and yet do we ever?

 

You’re not being forced. You’re being informed.

As you live and breathe, if your hearts desire is to reject Jesus and his word If you should slip into eternity today and discover instead of God calling you He then in turn has rejected you.

 

At that time to be fair and true to ones self; be thankful... you have obtained

your hearts desire ...alas you are ... separated from God eternally.

 

These days allotted us in the study of and sharing the word of God, is just that… time allotted. A time; to decide and choose. We all hear of.

We all follow our hearts.

 

The mind reasons; the heart determines.

[lonelybird]

God treat me so good, I like to boast about it:laugh: . why hide?

God is a good God

[Moai]

Moai, you're reading but not really hearing what I'm trying to say because you're over-arguing a point that I agree with: that you do the best you can to ensure a person's quality of life, but you accept the outcome of that treatment – whether it means a dead end or it provides another avenue for more cure. That's what accepting God's will is about, not being churlish by saying, "well, let the person who lost an arm bleed to death because that's 'God's will,'" because you're missing the whole point of respecting the dignity of life. Ironic, when you think about the jerks who waged war in the name of God, who started the Inquisition in the name of faith, who told people to drink purple Kool Aid in the name of Jesus, but those people were abusing the relationship people have with God.

 

Ah, where to begin. I am not sure that I am making myself clear. One has no choice but tho accept the outcome. It isn't as if some dies and you can say, "No, I don't accept that" and they come back to life.

 

The arm was severed because of god's will, the child was born with a brain disorder, and on and on because of god's will. If there is a god, and he has a will, all must go according to it. See? That is why many faithful believers fight against medical science.

 

It is nice to see that you have an enlightened moral view, but the fact remains that you hold onto the idea of faith and god's will, you just do not take it to the extreme that others do. In point of fact, it is that moral view that you apply to your religion to determine whether or not other followers are moral. That being the case, what is your religion for?

 

if anything, common sense tells you to respect life to a point where you defend it. Like with the case of the parents who denied their child treatment. They thought they were doing the right thing because they were being faithful, but the right thing meant protecting the life of their child, not denying life-ensuring treatment.

 

And there is the crux of the problem. It isn't that they thought they were doing the right thing by being faithful, they thought that by exhibiting faith and trusting the Lord they would CURE their child. They thought that they were protecting the life of their child. That is what is so tragic and sad about the whole thing. No amount of faith would cure their child. Only medical science could have done that--and even then maybe. But at least it was a chance. But, because of their delusion, they killed their child, as sure as if they had shot him.

 

How do they rationalize this? In a number of ways. They said that it was their fault for not having enough faith, and that it was god's will (sound familiar?).

 

I can give you another example from real life. Two boxers are about to square off, and they are both devout Christians. They each pray for victory. One pummels the other badly; the fight is stopped in the fifth round. The winner thanks god profusely, thanks him for his copious blessings, and says all glory is to him. The loser says that god is good, that it wasn't meant to be, but he'll be back, by thee grace of god, and win the title.

 

The argument that rationalizes these responses is that the result of the fight was "god's will." But how can that be, considering what the Bible says about prayer? Read the quotes I provided again, if need be. Jesus says that you will get anything you ask for. But obviously this is not the case.

 

And again, god gets all of the credit but none of the blame. But I digress...

 

I accept that the Universe is indifferent to my existence, and that good things and bad things happen to people randomly (beyond what is done to them by other people, of course), and that there is nothing personal in any of it.

 

The only difference between what you claim as god's will and my point of view is the idea of a personal god, and that he is doing his will and while you may not understand it, it must be the right thing in the end. I fail to see how your view offers any more comfort than mine, save the ego boost that you feel that god is your personal friend.

 

who are you, who has no idea of me, to suggest that what I have isn't real dialogue with God? But since you asked, I can tell you that he answers me with constant assurance that I am his and he is mine. And really, that's all that I need. No fanfares, though I get them when I look around me; no special treatment, though he has given me that, too, when I've most needed it. I guess the simplest way of explaining that my faith is to me what breathing is to others – it's innate.

 

Well, it can't be innate, or everyone would have it. And yes, by definition a dialog is a conversation between two people (I'll even give you beings, in this case.) But you speak, and god sends you feelings. That is hardly a dialog. And yes, I can say that what you have isn't a real dialog both because of the definition of a dialog and the fact that there is no evidence that you are actually talking to anything.

 

There is someone right now talking to Allah, and getting the same response you are. That goes for every religion you have ever heard of. Why are you right and they wrong? Moreover, those you mentioned above who committed atrocities in the name of religion had the same dialog you have.

 

I can say that they are deluded, because there is no evidence for god, and demonstrate that their position is immoral using common sense. You, however, cannot say definitively that they are not talking to god, as you claim the same thing, and both your claims in this case are equally valid (when compared to each other). You must use the same tools I do to determine that their beliefs/actions are immoral. Again, what is your religion for then?

 

just the car and stereo, dear; the rest I can live happily without

 

Would that your fellow believers agreed with you.

 

I asked her point-blank during an interview when we talked about death and dying and what the Church teaches about medicine and moral responsibility. In that instance, she was the authority because she has a health background and is versed on the Catholic Church's stance on euthanasia and related issues. Ugh, as for another comment you made, no, I don't believe in assisted suicide because it plays into an unnatural fear we've fostered about the dying process.

 

Unnatural fear of the dying process? Do tell. It is my understanding that people ask for assisted suicide because they have no hope of survival, and their death is going to be agonizingly painful. I await your thoughts...

[Love Hurts]

Thank you.

 

 

 

Um, no...I am not sure where you get that idea. Maybe you should read my post again.

 

 

 

Ok, so you admit that there are doctrines that aren't important. How do you know which ones are ok to be wrong about and which ones aren't? The fact is, you are just guessing, and you hold onto the ones which make you feel better. As do all believers, everywhere.

 

 

 

Yea, and then Jesus has to fight Satan AGAIN, right? Why not just get it over with in the first battle?

 

 

 

I know, but it is my point that once you abandon Judaism, you are no longer Jewish. Being Jewish is not an ethnicity, although many people would like it to be.

 

 

 

 

I am sure you believe that, but Jews who still believe as Jews think that your religion is pagan, polytheistic, and wrong. Just because some Jews can be convinced does not mean that you are right. People convert to Judaism too, you know.

 

 

 

We'll see, I'm sure. Can anyone else see the magical thinking in all of this? God shifting his priorities, people trampling on Jerusalem, human should being harvested...Am I the only one who thinks that is just weird?

 

I will say that I am a staunch supporter of Israel, so I am not one of the ones trampling on Jerusalem. I do think that the three big religions that came from there are sick and false. Most religions are just false, though.

 

 

 

I don't want to be a bellhop, or a waiter. I want to work in Human Resources. But, I guess Jesus won't let me choose. Bummer.

 

 

 

You are not planning on being here. But you pay your bills, right? You plan for the future, don't you? Doesn't that show a lack of faith on your part, as Jesus could take you up ANY SECOND NOW?

 

 

 

Certainly.

 

[Ok, so you admit that there are doctrines that aren't important. How do you know which ones are ok to be wrong about and which ones aren't? The fact is, you are just guessing, and you hold onto the ones which make you feel better. As do all believers, everywhere.]

 

We get torn on scriptures… the Bible clearly shows great support for Rapture on the last day. So Post Tribs stand on scriptures that support it. They say we all go through and on the last day Christ comes for His Church.

 

The Bible shows great support for Pre Trib Rapture and we see Rapture sooner that more Biblical prophesy may be fulfilled without wonderment as to where do we fit them in.

 

Where do we then fit in the Judgment and adornment of the Bride, casting of crowns? And the millennial reign of Christ on earth; is it literal or non literal…….Yes its literal, if not then why say we shall rule and reign with Christ…reign over who or what then?

 

Pre Trib see the rapture as a separate event from The second coming to earth, Rapture is to the clouds not to earth yet. The second coming is to earth for the purpose of battle. That’s fairly much the debate of it.

So even that we are saved and look forward to the coming of the Lord.

On Rapture when…we agree to disagree.

 

[Yea, and then Jesus has to fight Satan AGAIN, right? Why not just get it over with in the first battle? ]

 

This is another reason we see a pre trib Rapture. The bride is to rule and reign with Christ 1000 years, while Satan is in chains in the pit. Christ will rule those of flesh and blood on earth with an iron rod, those that survived the trib and walk into the millennial reign of Christ.

 

After the 1000 years Satan is loosed for a little season… to test and tempt the hearts of men… just as we today are tested and tempted.

 

There will be many that will turn against the Lord even though He rules them still men will turn from God and follow Satan. Men will strive to make war against God … the Lord will destroy them all … finally Satan is no more for eternity.

 

Then a New heaven and a New Earth appear, where Death, Sin, Satan, are wiped away. Then, the Lord will bring down the Holy City, the Place of God, the New Jerusalem, where all mankind will live eternally, wicked can not exist there, for they are in the lake of fire, never to return to life again.

 

God is the beginning and the end.

As He began the world good and perfect; in the end so it will be.

__________________________________

Why are the Jews Gods "Chosen" People? God had a great regard for the faithfulness of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

The Jews were chosen, "because he loved your fathers, therefore he chose their descendants" (Deuteronomy 4:37).

 

God said: "Understand that the LORD your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stiff-necked people" (9:6).

 

Nothing had changed centuries later, when they crucified God's Son, Jesus Christ (Acts 7:51).

 

However, by working through one special people, God was able to draw attention to His character and purpose with the earth. He said to Moses:

"For this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show my power in you, and that my name may be declared in all the earth" (Exodus 9:6).

 

This was vitally important, for God later said:

"But truly, as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord" (Numbers 14:21).

 

This wonderful promise will be fulfilled after Jesus Christ returns to the earth.

Though scattered and persecuted, the Jews still exist as a nation. That is because God promised: "I will save you from afar ...

 

I will not make a complete end of you" (Jeremiah 30:10,11).

Many Bible passages speak of Israel being regathered to their own land (Jeremiah 31:10; Ezekiel 36:24-28).

 

Many more talk about Jesus coming as king (Psalm 72; Acts 1:11). Our five "golden keys" work together to unlock God's message about "The Jews in God's Purpose".

 

Yes, God's salvation is also offered to Gentiles (non-Jews). Jesus will rule the world from Jerusalem.

 

"The Gentiles shall see your righteousness, and all kings your glory" (Isaiah 62:2). And it all comes down to this verse....notice there is no stipulations here By God..Ill choose you if...nope....

 

"For thou art an Holy people unto the Lord thy God, the Lord Thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are on the face of the earth"

 

"For thou art an Holy people unto the Lord thy God, the Lord Thy God hath chosen thee to be a "peculiar" people.

 

It all comes out in the wash… just the Israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years… God put them through to bring them out of… God is working His beloved stiff-necked Jews over … through and out of and into the righteousness of God.

 

[You are not planning on being here. But you pay your bills, right? You plan for the future, don't you? Doesn't that show a lack of faith on your part, as Jesus could take you up ANY SECOND NOW? ]

 

 

If I waited on the front lawn for the Lord to come… I could get hungry.

 

Then I’d need food;

that means I need cash,

that means I need employment,

that means I need transportation,

and clothing,

and a bath would be so nice,

and a place to rest

and then what about a vacation?

 

Before you know it I'd be off the front lawn and living life again, still looking ahead. I know He’s coming… I’ll go to work pay the bills and be here for others as well. Live this life the best I can… be thankful for a day and all it brings. Hey Moai, I’m going to be with Jesus one day you should come too … its going to be great. Come on lets plan on it together.

 

[Moai]

The bill of rights:

 

Created by man

 

God foretells the beginning from the end.

 

Satan is the iniquity at work even now

 

I don't understand what this means.

 

The Bill of Rights is the best document yet written describing the role of government and the rights of people. And it is secular.

 

If a man came along who believed as you do, who wanted to abandon it and make prayer in school a requirement, make Sunday church attendance mandatory, and limit media to only that which uplifts the Holy Spirit and Jesus, would you support him, or not? Why?

-----------

We can separate and yet do we ever?

 

You’re not being forced. You’re being informed.

As you live and breathe, if your hearts desire is to reject Jesus and his word If you should slip into eternity today and discover instead of God calling you He then in turn has rejected you.

 

I did not say that YOU were forcing me to do anything, because obviously you are not. I was merely pointing out that I would fight, to the point of losing my life, to protect your right to believe as you do.

 

It isn't my heart's desire to reject Jesus. I can't reject that which doesn't exist. And while I admit that I could be wrong, there is so much evidence to support that I am not that there is no doubt in my mind that I am not.

 

At that time to be fair and true to ones self; be thankful... you have obtained

your hearts desire ...alas you are ... separated from God eternally.

 

Yes, if I am true to myself I go to Hell forever. Sounds rational, loving, and just.

 

These days allotted us in the study of and sharing the word of God, is just that… time allotted. A time; to decide and choose. We all hear of.

We all follow our hearts.

 

The mind reasons; the heart determines.

 

For you, perhaps. For me the mind reasons, reaches the best conclusion based on the available evidence, and accepts it provisionally--about some things. There are other things for which there is so much evidence to doubt it is silly. I am not provisional about those things.

[Moai]

[Ok, so you admit that there are doctrines that aren't important. How do you know which ones are ok to be wrong about and which ones aren't? The fact is, you are just guessing, and you hold onto the ones which make you feel better. As do all believers, everywhere.]

 

We get torn on scriptures… the Bible clearly shows great support for Rapture on the last day. So Post Tribs stand on scriptures that support it. They say we all go through and on the last day Christ comes for His Church.

 

But if the Bible was written by god, which I am sure you think it is, why should there be any confusion at all? It should be self-defining.

 

You have said before that the Holy Spirit helps you to interpret the Bible, and that unless you are filled with the Holy Spirit, you can't read it correctly. Assuming that is true, why would the Holy Spirit give multiple interpretations to multiple people?

 

Here you also admit that Scripture can give evidence for conflicting ideas. How do you determine which conflicting interpretation to accept, given that the Holy Spirit inspires both?

 

The Bible shows great support for Pre Trib Rapture and we see Rapture sooner that more Biblical prophesy may be fulfilled without wonderment as to where do we fit them in.

 

Where do we then fit in the Judgment and adornment of the Bride, casting of crowns? And the millennial reign of Christ on earth; is it literal or non literal…….Yes its literal, if not then why say we shall rule and reign with Christ…reign over who or what then?

 

Pre Trib see the rapture as a separate event from The second coming to earth, Rapture is to the clouds not to earth yet. The second coming is to earth for the purpose of battle. That’s fairly much the debate of it.

So even that we are saved and look forward to the coming of the Lord.

On Rapture when…we agree to disagree.

 

See above.

 

[Yea, and then Jesus has to fight Satan AGAIN, right? Why not just get it over with in the first battle? ]

 

This is another reason we see a pre trib Rapture. The bride is to rule and reign with Christ 1000 years, while Satan is in chains in the pit. Christ will rule those of flesh and blood on earth with an iron rod, those that survived the trib and walk into the millennial reign of Christ.

 

An iron rod? That doesn't sound too loving to me.

 

After the 1000 years Satan is loosed for a little season… to test and tempt the hearts of men… just as we today are tested and tempted.

 

The point of this being...?

 

There will be many that will turn against the Lord even though He rules them still men will turn from God and follow Satan. Men will strive to make war against God … the Lord will destroy them all … finally Satan is no more for eternity.

 

Why not take care of it all at once?

 

Then a New heaven and a New Earth appear, where Death, Sin, Satan, are wiped away. Then, the Lord will bring down the Holy City, the Place of God, the New Jerusalem, where all mankind will live eternally, wicked can not exist there, for they are in the lake of fire, never to return to life again.

 

God is the beginning and the end.

As He began the world good and perfect; in the end so it will be.

 

A restatement of an old pagan idea. It made just as much sense then as it does now.

 

And why Jerusalem? Why not Kingston, Jamaica, or San Diego? Way better climate. And prettier, too.

__________________________________

Why are the Jews Gods "Chosen" People? God had a great regard for the faithfulness of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

The Jews were chosen, "because he loved your fathers, therefore he chose their descendants" (Deuteronomy 4:37).

 

God said: "Understand that the LORD your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stiff-necked people" (9:6).

 

Nothing had changed centuries later, when they crucified God's Son, Jesus Christ (Acts 7:51).

 

However, by working through one special people, God was able to draw attention to His character and purpose with the earth. He said to Moses:

"For this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show my power in you, and that my name may be declared in all the earth" (Exodus 9:6).

 

This was vitally important, for God later said:

"But truly, as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord" (Numbers 14:21).

 

Hasn't happened yet. And Islam is the fastest growing religion on Earth. So it doesn't look like that will be the case any time soon.

 

This wonderful promise will be fulfilled after Jesus Christ returns to the earth.

Though scattered and persecuted, the Jews still exist as a nation. That is because God promised: "I will save you from afar ...

 

Scholars maintain that what the really means is that all Jews will move back to Israel. The Jews are not a nation, even though they are scattered. They even killed each other in WWI.

 

I will not make a complete end of you" (Jeremiah 30:10,11).

Many Bible passages speak of Israel being regathered to their own land (Jeremiah 31:10; Ezekiel 36:24-28).

 

Many more talk about Jesus coming as king (Psalm 72; Acts 1:11). Our five "golden keys" work together to unlock God's message about "The Jews in God's Purpose".

 

Israel doesn't have a king. They are a secular democracy. It's obvious that the word "king" is used because that's all their was then, and the man who wrote the Bible had no idea what a constitutional republic was. If he did, he would have said, "Jesus will be elected Prime Minister", but he didn't. That's because he didn't know what he was talking about.

 

Yes, God's salvation is also offered to Gentiles (non-Jews). Jesus will rule the world from Jerusalem.

 

And not logistically the best place from which to do so. Again, the guy who wrote the Bible was very concerned with Jerusalem, but the rest of the world at that time couldn't care less about the Middle East. Most wouldn't care now, except for the fact that religious zealots there kill people in other places.

 

"The Gentiles shall see your righteousness, and all kings your glory" (Isaiah 62:2). And it all comes down to this verse....notice there is no stipulations here By God..Ill choose you if...nope....

 

"For thou art an Holy people unto the Lord thy God, the Lord Thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are on the face of the earth"

 

I'll again remind you that this quoting of passages only means something if someone has already made the decision to accept the Bible as the word of god. Just quoting it does not provide any evidence that such is the case. You may as well say that the Bible says that it will rain chocolate for all the good it does you. Every religion has a myth about the end of the world. And all have the same amount of evidence. You guessed it: zero.

 

"For thou art an Holy people unto the Lord thy God, the Lord Thy God hath chosen thee to be a "peculiar" people.

 

It all comes out in the wash… just the Israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years… God put them through to bring them out of… God is working His beloved stiff-necked Jews over … through and out of and into the righteousness of God.

 

Don't you ever wonder why a being that can do whatever it wants cares about any of this?

 

[You are not planning on being here. But you pay your bills, right? You plan for the future, don't you? Doesn't that show a lack of faith on your part, as Jesus could take you up ANY SECOND NOW? ]

 

 

If I waited on the front lawn for the Lord to come… I could get hungry.

 

Really? So you DON'T think that Jesus is coming back any second. Ok, how long then? A week? A month? A year? A hundred years?

 

Then I’d need food;

that means I need cash,

that means I need employment,

that means I need transportation,

and clothing,

and a bath would be so nice,

and a place to rest

and then what about a vacation?

 

Before you know it I'd be off the front lawn and living life again, still looking ahead. I know He’s coming… I’ll go to work pay the bills and be here for others as well. Live this life the best I can… be thankful for a day and all it brings. Hey Moai, I’m going to be with Jesus one day you should come too … its going to be great. Come on lets plan on it together.

 

 

I can't see how any plans you make for Heaven could possibly be realized.

 

I am going to go to Valhalla, Thor willing.

[Love Hurts]

[i still say that in order to be a true follower of Jesus you must first be Jewish. You must give up your pagan Holidays. You must give up the notion that Paul Knew more then Jesus. Jesus never gave up his Jewish Faith. So why does the Christan Chruch?]

___________________________

Israel is sometimes protrayed as an olive tree.

 

In verses 7-12 we find that God has temporarily blinded (set aside) Israel.

 

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Now he is speaking that the purpose of their being set aside is for the reconciliation of the world. Paul describes this receiving of Israel as raising them out of spriitual death into spiritual life.

 

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

The "firstfruit" of the tree is the good fruit that the good branches produce, and represent those in Israel that believe God.

 

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou (members of the Body of Christ), being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

 

The "broken off" branches represent "unbelieving" Israel and are "broken off" (removed). Into the place of the borken off branches were grafted in the branches of a "wild olive tree." The grafted in branches represent the Church, the Body of Christ.

 

The fruit of the wild olive tree is not the same fruit as the remaining branches. The brances are attached to the same tree but produce different fruit.

 

The key to understanding verses 17-22 lies in this verse - 17. Many today believe that this verse means that the Church, the Body of Christ, was grafted into Israel. Nothing could be further from the truth. The first clue is that the fruit of the natural branches is different from the branches of the grafted in branches.

 

Yet, we both get our nurishment from the same roots.

 

The blessings that belong to natural brances are salvation/justification, and a place in the earthly kingdom.

 

The source of these blessing come from the root - Christ.

 

The blessings that belong to the grafted in brancehs are salvation/justification, and a home/hope in heaven.

 

The source of these blessings come from the root - Christ.

 

The Church, the Body of Christ IS NOT grafted into Israel.]

 

However, both Israel, and the Church, the Body of Christ, get our blessing from the same source - Christ.

 

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

 

Paul here is warning the grafted in branches (Body of Christ) not to think of themselves higher the original branches (Israel) because their source of blessings come through the same source as those of the nation of Israel.

 

From the above we should be able to see that the natural branches and the grafted in branches both produce different fruit. However, they both get their nourishment from the same source - the roots - Christ Jesus.

 

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

 

Paul says that some Gentiles might get haughty and think that God is now chosing them over the Jews.

 

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

 

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

 

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

Because of unbelief, God broke off the unfruitful natural branches, so the Gentiles should not get too highminded because they too can be broken off.

 

The Chruch, the Body of Christ, is not Israel or "spiritual" Israel.

 

The tree represents the Body of Christ….You do not support the root, but the root supports you. " We Gentiles are grafted in through Salvaion. Christ is the root of the tree.

 

 

Through Salvation we have joint heir with Jesus and are part of the family of God.

 

[Love Hurts]

Ummm. How can 666 be ever growing? If it gets bigger, it becomes 667. Or 668, 669, etc etc.

 

#666 is ever increasing.

That’s better.

[sb129]

Ummm. How can 666 be ever growing? If it gets bigger, it becomes 667. Or 668, 669, etc etc

 

:laugh: :laugh: literalist!

?

 

Of course I am a literalist. Half the problem with relgions and faith is that they don't take their texts literally, which leaves the door wide open for misinterpretation. Which LH has admitted to.

 

I would like to add that stem-cell research is the best hope we have of helping and possibly curing people with brain trauma, paralysis, extensive burns, etc. But because those 150 cells in that dish have a soul, we cannot pursue it.

?

Don't get me started......

 

 

if you want to offer hope for those people with debilitating illnesses, why are you putting all your eggs into just one basket? Are fetal stem cells the only viable option, or are there others? What is the most dependable medium for cooking up these cures? Is it just limited to stem cells from a those trashed tissues? Isn't there endless opportunity for the blood/matter from umbilical cords? ...

Stem cell research is the BEST way of being able to help people.

Wouldn't you want the best treatment possible for your family?

 

why are you limiting that child to his fatal illness? There's more value to his life than just that ... our human imperfections are designed to lead us to the discovery of the spiritual perfection in which God has created us.

 

Another person who prolly hasn't seen first hand how devastating these illnesses have been. If you had, I am sure you wouldn't say such things.

 

#666 is ever increasing.

That’s better.

 

Again, if it increases, its no longer 666.

[Love Hurts]

I don't understand what this means.

 

The Bill of Rights is the best document yet written describing the role of government and the rights of people. And it is secular.

 

If a man came along who believed as you do, who wanted to abandon it and make prayer in school a requirement, make Sunday church attendance mandatory, and limit media to only that which uplifts the Holy Spirit and Jesus, would you support him, or not? Why?

-----------

 

 

I did not say that YOU were forcing me to do anything, because obviously you are not. I was merely pointing out that I would fight, to the point of losing my life, to protect your right to believe as you do.

 

It isn't my heart's desire to reject Jesus. I can't reject that which doesn't exist. And while I admit that I could be wrong, there is so much evidence to support that I am not that there is no doubt in my mind that I am not.

 

 

 

Yes, if I am true to myself I go to Hell forever. Sounds rational, loving, and just.

 

 

 

For you, perhaps. For me the mind reasons, reaches the best conclusion based on the available evidence, and accepts it provisionally--about some things. There are other things for which there is so much evidence to doubt it is silly. I am not provisional about those things.

 

The bill of rights:

 

Created by man

God foretells the beginning from the end.

Satan is the iniquity at work even now

______________

[The Bill of Rights is the best document yet written describing the role of government and the rights of people. And it is secular.]

 

The Bill of Rights is separate from Religion… is it?

The Bible is a book only for those that believe in it … is it?

Satan is part of that mythical book … is he?

 

Is the term secular… reality?

 

We think secularly and so we imagine its full truth it’s the way it is that it is reality.

 

Yet truly this world and everything in it belongs to Christ… He has mapped out Revelation knowing our course better than we ourselves. So as men blindly carry on creating and banishing laws, God never changes.

 

What is happening is like a stage being set and the scenes are played out… scene by scene until the last one is finished.

This means all other factors will work their way into fulfillment of Revelation.

 

When we read Revelation and look at the worlds past present and future…

We can read ahead and know what’s up next…we can expect, as we already know from the word of God.

 

Secular… it’s a term that separates God from man… and still that will not be. It’s only a frame of mind, a concept that God is not present or part of or has a hand in or knows in advance where this world is headed, one day at a time. Likewise we cannot let out the adversary… he is at work constantly in this fulfillment of Revelation.

 

The spiritual realm is always present and working its self out through men on earth…

The Holy Spirit works outwardly through men; demonic spirits work outwardly through men…

 

My thoughts are on the term secular… it’s an impossible delusion. In actuality nothing is secular; with out the presence of the spiritual world. As the scenes play out having read the script… we can know the ending in advance of mans secular world. The word of God has foretold.

 

Spirits are involved in everything…

Take the term secular and its meaning…. God did not intend a world without Him.

 

sec•u•lar

Pronunciation: (sek'yu-lur), [key]

—adj.

1. of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred; temporal: secular interests.

2. not pertaining to or connected with religion (opposed to sacred): secular music.

3. (of education, a school, etc.) concerned with nonreligious subjects.

4. (of members of the clergy) not belonging to a religious order; not bound by monastic vows (opposed to regular).

5. occurring or celebrated once in an age or century: the secular games of Rome.

6. going on from age to age; continuing through long ages.

 

000.*Man supposes.

 

[if a man came along who believed as you do, who wanted to abandon it and make prayer in school a requirement, make Sunday church attendance mandatory, and limit media to only that which uplifts the Holy Spirit and Jesus, would you support him, or not? Why?]

 

Would you get dressed in a hat only and walk down the street naked?

No you need more than a hat. You need all your clothing and shoes.

Now you’re prepared.

Your concept of only or limited to … is not right. We need balance, as we are human.

We keep our hat on and put our clothes on it’s an entire ensemble.

It all works together. ….

We are to put God first; in all things and live this life.

[Love Hurts]

Again, if it increases, its no longer 666.

 

Here it is...

 

http://www.av1611.org/666.html

 

 

http://www.wordofloveforyou.com/markof.htm

 

 

[lonelybird]

Moai

Can you answer me these questions?

 

Who to define "good person"? What can be called a "good person"?

You define by yourself or defined by social standard?

where did these social standards come from?

If defined by social standards, then when a person killed another one person secretly and nobody knows, if this person can be called "good person" ?

 

What make a person improve their moral level?

You well know the Bible, so you know the story of Cain who killed his brother out of jealousy.

Sin invariably begins with an inner attitude that underlies the outward action of the outward sin. At any point along the way, Cain could have broken from this destructive cycle through confession of his sin and repentance and a return to the Lord. Instead, he continues to spiral downward throughout this entire chapter

 

What to determine "moral level"? or just do whatever you want to do?

 

What can transfer a "bad person" into a "good person"?

 

If we are only animal consist of cells, what meaning is of life? survival of the fittest? where are guarantees of human values? Fittest?

[burning 4 revenge]

I just read Philo Judaes' Embassy to Gaius in which he approaches the emperor Caligula to try and dissuade him from erecting a statue of himself in the Great Temple and I'm more convinced than ever that the Jews were the most noble culture of antiquity and that the West needed to be effectivley Judaized to advance from barbarism.

[lonelybird]

I like King David's poem, very beautiful

 

Psamls The Two Ways

1:1 How blessed is the one who does not follow the advice of the wicked,

or stand in the pathway with sinners,

or sit in the assembly of scoffers!

 

1:2 Instead he finds pleasure in obeying the Lord’s commands;

he meditates on his commands day and night.

 

1:3 He is like a tree planted by flowing streams;

it yields its fruit at the proper time,

and its leaves never fall off.

He succeeds in everything he attempts.

 

1:4 Not so with the wicked!

Instead they are like wind-driven chaff.

 

1:5 For this reason the wicked cannot withstand judgment,

nor can sinners join the assembly of the godly.

 

1:6 Certainly the Lord guards the way of the godly,

but the way of the wicked ends in destruction.

[Love Hurts]

But if the Bible was written by god, which I am sure you think it is, why should there be any confusion at all? It should be self-defining.

 

You have said before that the Holy Spirit helps you to interpret the Bible, and that unless you are filled with the Holy Spirit, you can't read it correctly. Assuming that is true, why would the Holy Spirit give multiple interpretations to multiple people?

 

Here you also admit that Scripture can give evidence for conflicting ideas. How do you determine which conflicting interpretation to accept, given that the Holy Spirit inspires both?

 

 

 

See above.

 

[Yea, and then Jesus has to fight Satan AGAIN, right? Why not just get it over with in the first battle? ]

 

 

 

An iron rod? That doesn't sound too loving to me.

 

 

 

The point of this being...?

 

 

 

Why not take care of it all at once?

 

 

 

A restatement of an old pagan idea. It made just as much sense then as it does now.

 

And why Jerusalem? Why not Kingston, Jamaica, or San Diego? Way better climate. And prettier, too.

__________________________________

 

 

Hasn't happened yet. And Islam is the fastest growing religion on Earth. So it doesn't look like that will be the case any time soon.

 

 

 

Scholars maintain that what the really means is that all Jews will move back to Israel. The Jews are not a nation, even though they are scattered. They even killed each other in WWI.

 

 

 

Israel doesn't have a king. They are a secular democracy. It's obvious that the word "king" is used because that's all their was then, and the man who wrote the Bible had no idea what a constitutional republic was. If he did, he would have said, "Jesus will be elected Prime Minister", but he didn't. That's because he didn't know what he was talking about.

 

 

 

And not logistically the best place from which to do so. Again, the guy who wrote the Bible was very concerned with Jerusalem, but the rest of the world at that time couldn't care less about the Middle East. Most wouldn't care now, except for the fact that religious zealots there kill people in other places.

 

 

 

I'll again remind you that this quoting of passages only means something if someone has already made the decision to accept the Bible as the word of god. Just quoting it does not provide any evidence that such is the case. You may as well say that the Bible says that it will rain chocolate for all the good it does you. Every religion has a myth about the end of the world. And all have the same amount of evidence. You guessed it: zero.

 

 

 

Don't you ever wonder why a being that can do whatever it wants cares about any of this?

 

[You are not planning on being here. But you pay your bills, right? You plan for the future, don't you? Doesn't that show a lack of faith on your part, as Jesus could take you up ANY SECOND NOW? ]

 

 

If I waited on the front lawn for the Lord to come… I could get hungry.

 

 

Really? So you DON'T think that Jesus is coming back any second. Ok, how long then? A week? A month? A year? A hundred years?

 

I can't see how any plans you make for Heaven could possibly be realized.

 

I am going to go to Valhalla, Thor willing.

 

_______________________________________________

 

 

No man knows the Day or the Hour of Rapture.

 

[Here you also admit that Scripture can give evidence for conflicting ideas. How do you determine which conflicting interpretation to accept, given that the Holy Spirit inspires both?]

 

 

You can take a babe in Christ sit the bible before them; requeting they explain what each parable means. Claim; if you get one wrong ...

your not one of Lords sheep; instead you’re a goat.

 

That’s not right… I witnessed this happen to a group of new in Christ.

 

------

 

We are to study to show ourselves approved.

 

2 Timothy 2:15

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

We are never finished learning and growing in the Lord.

As for the more knowledgeable theologians that have studied they can still find something they missed and come forward to say… I misunderstood I was wrong and now I see.

 

I’ve heard many of them as they grow in the Lord make retractions and explain their new conception and how it was derived. It’s an ongoing learning growing in the Lord walk.

 

[An iron rod? That doesn't sound too loving to me.]

 

Is not a weapon to beat people up with…

Its His government... His Law His way…

 

[Hasn't happened yet. And Islam is the fastest growing religion on Earth. So it doesn't look like that will be the case any time soon.]

 

The Jews will not be stirred until the Tribulation.

 

[i can't see how any plans you make for Heaven could possibly be realized.

I am going to go to Valhalla, Thor willing.]

 

Sounds hopeless…

[quankanne]

Unnatural fear of the dying process? Do tell. It is my understanding that people ask for assisted suicide because they have no hope of survival, and their death is going to be agonizingly painful. I await your thoughts...

 

we all come into this world knowing that we have an expiration date, agreed? Somewhere along the line, we begin being bombarded with ideas that we can circumvent the natural aging process through plastic surgery, through the latest fad diet, through embracing the idea that there's some process that would allow them to go into cold storage to return at a later date .... I am not arguing that medicine is bad or wrong for delivering people from their illnesses, because that's what it is designed to do. However, there are people who want to take those medical advances one step further to circumvent the natural aging process because they are afraid of that process, and of dying.

 

someone – I think it was a4a – who said she wasn't afraid of dying, and I think that's because she's prolly well-grounded into the life cycle because of the work she does with animals. She's seen death and she's seen how medical care can help prolong the quality of her animals lives by healing them when that healing is possible.

 

same with people who have chronic illnesses – they understand that only medication can do only so much to provide quality of life. The difference between those who choose assisted suicide/euthanasia/suicide and those who don't lay in their perception of the dying process. Pain is a given, though the degree and kind varies among patients, so surely this can't be the sole factor that casts the deciding vote to take one's own life. Personally, I think it's motivated by fear of the dying process and of a devalued sense of their own dignity. But hey, that's my thought on things. Not wrong, not right, just my opinion up for grabs.

 

Of course I am a literalist. Half the problem with relgions and faith is that they don't take their texts literally, which leaves the door wide open for misinterpretation.

 

to which I say to you, who are learned: what part of "the Bible is a history of the spiritual journey of man" don't you comprehend? You refute it as a historical document, but ironically, you assign it that same value when you complain about people of faith not taking their texts literally! Yes, there are going to be people who see the Bible as historical fact, and there are those who acknowlege it as a spiritual documentation of man's journey, all in the name of faith. What camp will you fall under?

 

Originally Posted by quankanne

why are you limiting that child to his fatal illness? There's more value to his life than just that ... our human imperfections are designed to lead us to the discovery of the spiritual perfection in which God has created us.

Another person who prolly hasn't seen first hand how devastating these illnesses have been. If you had, I am sure you wouldn't say such things.

 

kind of full of yourself, aren't you? Funny, but I didn't see you riding shotgun with me those last five or six months of 2003 as I made trip after trip to be with my mother – a severe diabetic – who was dying when her system started shutting down and not even dialysis was working. Of course, you didn't see the dignity which she handled the last several years of her life – a life that included incontinence, depression, endless infections and problems from bad drug interaction because she was on so many damned medications, and worst of all the itching from the toxins that weren't filtering from her body near the end. You couldn't know that that for all her pain and scaredness, she rose above it because of her strong faith. I'm not sure why you feel threatened by this, but I can tell you I firmly believe that man's value cannot be limited to his physicalities.