Tribulation on earth.

[a4a]

Unnatural fear of the dying process? Do tell. It is my understanding that people ask for assisted suicide because they have no hope of survival, and their death is going to be agonizingly painful. I await your thoughts...

 

we all come into this world knowing that we have an expiration date, agreed? Somewhere along the line, we begin being bombarded with ideas that we can circumvent the natural aging process through plastic surgery, through the latest fad diet, through embracing the idea that there's some process that would allow them to go into cold storage to return at a later date .... I am not arguing that medicine is bad or wrong for delivering people from their illnesses, because that's what it is designed to do. However, there are people who want to take those medical advances one step further to circumvent the natural aging process because they are afraid of that process, and of dying.

 

someone – I think it was a4a – who said she wasn't afraid of dying, and I think that's because she's prolly well-grounded into the life cycle because of the work she does with animals. She's seen death and she's seen how medical care can help prolong the quality of her animals lives by healing them when that healing is possible.

 

same with people who have chronic illnesses – they understand that only medication can do only so much to provide quality of life. The difference between those who choose assisted suicide/euthanasia/suicide and those who don't lay in their perception of the dying process. Pain is a given, though the degree and kind varies among patients, so surely this can't be the sole factor that casts the deciding vote to take one's own life. Personally, I think it's motivated by fear of the dying process and of a devalued sense of their own dignity. But hey, that's my thought on things. Not wrong, not right, just my opinion up for grabs.

 

[

 

It is not a matter of dignity..... there is no pride involved or self worth feelings. It is a matter of logic. If I am to sit in pain, ****ting myself, making other clean up after me I do not fear or hate that, hell it is common. But where is my quality of life? Nor do I think it is right to drain your family financially and more so if you do not wish to remain in pain with crap in your pants. What is the point of living when you cannot get out of bed, don't even know who is talking to you. It is not fear or dignity it is a realization that prolonging the finality is futile and actually cruel.

 

As for healing medicine for pets, I know far too many people that force their pets to suffer needlessly and selfishly. They don't keep that pet alive for the pet....... it is for their own neediness.

 

Q I think your fear of death has you motivated to think others feel the same at heart as you do. I don't think you can see that some do not fear death. It is a perfectly natural process and one that you can manipulate if you choose to.

 

And as for suicide being a sin... how many people knowingly risk their life to save others..... suicide attempt in a way. Why is it when a soldier dies when saving his buddies he is a hero, but actually it was suicide in a way. If he jumps on the grenade.... he decided to save his buddies from pain, possible death, and suffering. But if I choose to jump on a grenade to save my family from the pain and financial ruin of a terminal illness I may suffer from I am a sinner or a coward? Not in my view.

 

 

 

I do not fear the grenade either - if I am forced to face it one day and there is no other options.

[sb129]

Here it is...

 

http://www.av1611.org/666.html

 

 

http://www.wordofloveforyou.com/markof.htm

 

 

 

OK LH, but get your grammar right mate the site doesn't say its INCREASING, it says its getting closer.

 

to which I say to you, who are learned: what part of "the Bible is a history of the spiritual journey of man" don't you comprehend? You refute it as a historical document, but ironically, you assign it that same value when you complain about people of faith not taking their texts literally! Yes, there are going to be people who see the Bible as historical fact, and there are those who acknowlege it as a spiritual documentation of man's journey, all in the name of faith. What camp will you fall under?

kind of full of yourself, aren't you? Funny, but I didn't see you riding shotgun with me those last five or six months of 2003 as I made trip after trip to be with my mother – a severe diabetic – who was dying when her system started shutting down and not even dialysis was working. Of course, you didn't see the dignity which she handled the last several years of her life – a life that included incontinence, depression, endless infections and problems from bad drug interaction because she was on so many damned medications, and worst of all the itching from the toxins that weren't filtering from her body near the end. You couldn't know that that for all her pain and scaredness, she rose above it because of her strong faith. I'm not sure why you feel threatened by this, but I can tell you I firmly believe that man's value cannot be limited to his physicalities.

 

WEll actually, q, that WASN'T directed at you, it was at LH.

 

How dare you accuse me of being full of myself? Bit of a big assumption isn't it? I am very sorry to hear aboutyour mum, but I don't think that gives you license to call me "full of myself".Not that its a competition or anything, but I have also had family members suffer IMMENSELY. And they rose above it WITHOUT faith.

Yes, it can happen.

So of course I wasn't riding SHOTGUN with YOU, I had my OWN Sh*t to deal with. You can believe what you want, thats up to you.

I happen to disagree with you, OK?

My family member is still alive- and living every day is very very difficult for him. Unless modern medicine takes a massive leap forward with stem cell research he will never regain what he has lost. Faith will not make that any better, thankyou very much.

 

OK for you, faith has many facets, and I respect that.

It has helped you and your family get thru some tough times, and I also respect that.

 

What I DON'T appreciate is people blathering on and on about this verse or that verse without attaching some of their OWN thoughts, feelings and experiences to it.

 

PS Bible = historical fact or documentation of mans spiritual journey?

 

I don;t think its one or the other... collection of storied at best. With some spirituality thrown in.

TBH, I don't actually care, its not part of my life, and I will never have to answer to a god, so its irrelevant to me WHAT the bible is, excpet its the source of many arguments, contradictions and problems.

[Moai]

The bill of rights:

 

Created by man

God foretells the beginning from the end.

Satan is the iniquity at work even now

______________

[The Bill of Rights is the best document yet written describing the role of government and the rights of people. And it is secular.]

 

The Bill of Rights is separate from Religion… is it?

The Bible is a book only for those that believe in it … is it?

Satan is part of that mythical book … is he?

 

Is the term secular… reality?

 

Yes, the Bill of Rights is secular. The authors don't claim to have been inspired to write it. It says in the First Amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

 

That pretty much eliminates the "Worship no god before me" commandment, huh?

 

The Bible is only the word of god if you believe it is. Otherwise, it is just one religious text among many. And yes, Satan is part of that mythical book. The Hindus have Shiva, for the Norse it was Loki. I am sure that you think that the last two are myths, right?

 

That's the problem with "holy" books. There are lots of them. Which one you accept is largely determined by what culture you live in, not the inherent "truth" of the book.

 

We think secularly and so we imagine its full truth it’s the way it is that it is reality.

 

Yet truly this world and everything in it belongs to Christ… He has mapped out Revelation knowing our course better than we ourselves. So as men blindly carry on creating and banishing laws, God never changes.

 

Actually, that is backwards. God changes all the time. Early on in Christianity, God was a real, physical person, living up in the sky. But, as we learned more about the solar system and developed ways to look at it, god was shown not to be there. So, god changed and became a spiritual force. Also, the laws we create limit and restrict god's laws. Look at the First Amendment again. God says have no other gods before me. The Bill of Rights prevents that, as anyone can worship any god he likes--or none of them--without fear of government reprisal. If your religion calls for animal sacrifice, you ARE restricted, because our culture determines animal sacrifice to be abhorrent. In that case, animal rights laws trump your religious rights. In another example, there are people who regard smoking marijuana as a sacrament. Marijuana is against the law, so our anti-drug policies trump your religious rights, yet again. Laws that are arrived at using rational thought and secular reasoning trump the religious ones.

 

Notice that at one time Jehovah, Jesus' father, required animal sacrifice. Now he doesn't. That is a big change, wouldn't you say? I know you'll say that Jesus took care of that, and that's fine, but the Jews don't accept Jesus and they don't sacrifice animals any more either.

 

The Church used to hunt down, torture and kill witches. Then, people figured out that there is no such thing as a witch. Nobody hunts down witches anymore (in the West, anyway). The Bible still has the "do not suffer a witch to live" line in there. The law has changed, the Bible hasn't. So, either god was right and there really are witches, or there have never been witches and the Bible is wrong. My money is on the latter.

 

What is happening is like a stage being set and the scenes are played out… scene by scene until the last one is finished.

This means all other factors will work their way into fulfillment of Revelation.

 

When we read Revelation and look at the worlds past present and future…

We can read ahead and know what’s up next…we can expect, as we already know from the word of God.

 

But the Bible is so often wrong, as are those who try to predict things based on its text. I have provided many examples of this in another post. If Biblical prophecy meant anything, it wouldn't be so nebulous. It would say, "The Antichrist will live in a place called France, and his name will be Steve. He will spread his word through the Internet." But it doesn't. It says things like, "And yea, the Antichrist will raise his heads, and his tongue shall be forked, and the Lord will smite him before the sun draws nigh." You can interpret the passages any way that you want. It has happened before, and you are doing it right now.

 

Now, you can say that people living 100 years ago wouldn't know what the Internet is, but so what? Obviously they aren't the generation that was going to experience the Second Coming. The prophecies that you quote make even less ssense than my example would have.

 

Secular… it’s a term that separates God from man… and still that will not be. It’s only a frame of mind, a concept that God is not present or part of or has a hand in or knows in advance where this world is headed, one day at a time. Likewise we cannot let out the adversary… he is at work constantly in this fulfillment of Revelation.

 

The term doesn't separate god from man, it describes the separation from magical thinking and rationalism.

 

I would think that you would want the adversary to be let out, and to fulfill his part of prophecy. That signals your Saviour returning, does it not? Why fight against that which is Satanic in your view? Moreover, you must know that you attempts to fight it are futile, as the Bible says that Satan will rule the Earth for seven years. There is nothing you can do about it.

 

The spiritual realm is always present and working its self out through men on earth…

The Holy Spirit works outwardly through men; demonic spirits work outwardly through men…

 

More paganism. Another great example of how god and the world he inhabits changes, and gets smaller. As I have pointed out before, there was once a time when demons were real, physical creatures. Creatures that made men sick. Jesus even cast some out and put them into pigs, remember? But now we know that there is no such thing--and the people who cling to the idea describe them as spiritual forces that cause people to do evil. Even that idea is dying.

 

My thoughts are on the term secular… it’s an impossible delusion. In actuality nothing is secular; with out the presence of the spiritual world. As the scenes play out having read the script… we can know the ending in advance of mans secular world. The word of God has foretold.

 

Nope. In point of fact, everything is secular. That's because there is no god to influence anything. You believe there is, but that doesn't make it real. You and many millions before you have read the script, as you say. And they have all been wrong. I would bet that you are wrong, too. In fact, I am betting that your wrong because I reject the entire idea.

 

I'll give you some more examples of failed end-time ideas:

 

[FONT=verdana]"AD 156 A man named Montanus declared himself to be the "Spirit of Truth," the personification of the Holy Spirit, mentioned in the Gospel of John, who was to reveal all truth. Montanus quickly gathered followers, including a pair of far-seeing "prophetesses", who claimed to have visions and ecstatic experiences supposedly from God. They began to spread what they called "The Third Testament, a series of revelatory messages which foretold of the soon-coming Kingdom of God and "The New Jerusalem," which was about to descend from heaven to land in Montanus' city of Pepuza, in Phrygia (modern-day Turkey), where it would be home for all "true" believers. The word was spread, and all were urged to come to Phrygia to await the Second Coming. The movement divided Christians into two camps, even after the New Jerusalem didn't appear. Whole communities were fragmented, and continuous discord resulted. Finally, in AD 431, the Council of Ephesus condemned Chiliasm, or belief in the Millennium, as a dangerous superstition, and Montanus was declared to be a heretic. Despite the failure of the prediction, the cult survived several centuries until it was ordered exterminated by Pope Leo I."

 

[/FONT][FONT=verdana]"AD 247, Christian prophets declare that the persecutions by the Romans are a sign of the impending return of Jesus."

 

"[/FONT][FONT=verdana]AD 500 At the mid-fifth century, Vandal invasions recalled calculations that the world would end in the year 500, 6000 years after Creation, and spurred new calculations to show that the name of the Vandal king Genseric represented 666: the number of the Beast."

 

"[/FONT][FONT=verdana]AD 1186 Certain prophecies, during the time of the Third Crusade, began circulating in 1184, telling of a [/FONT]"new world order."[FONT=verdana] These were believed to have been written by astrologers in Spain, and one of them, the "Letter of Toledo," appearing in 1186, urged everyone to flee to caves and other remote places, because the world was soon to be devastated by terrible storms, famine, earthquakes, and more. Only a few true belivers would be spared."

 

"[/FONT][FONT=verdana]AD 1700 Jonathan Edwards, premier evangelist, was fascinated by the Apocalypse, noted all signs of the times, and calculated and recalculated its coming. He concluded that Antichrist's rule would end when the papacy ended in 1866, and that old serpent, the Devil, would finally be vanquished in the year 2000, when the Millennium would begin."

 

I found those in a web search that took all of ten seconds.[/FONT]

 

Spirits are involved in everything…

Take the term secular and its meaning…. God did not intend a world without Him.

 

Well, for you they are. That doesn't mean that what you think is happening is real.

 

sec•u•lar

Pronunciation: (sek'yu-lur), [key]

—adj.

1. of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred; temporal: secular interests.

2. not pertaining to or connected with religion (opposed to sacred): secular music.

3. (of education, a school, etc.) concerned with nonreligious subjects.

4. (of members of the clergy) not belonging to a religious order; not bound by monastic vows (opposed to regular).

5. occurring or celebrated once in an age or century: the secular games of Rome.

6. going on from age to age; continuing through long ages.

 

000.*Man supposes.

 

No, man knows. The great thing about all this is that all we have to do is watch and see what happens to determine if you are correct in your interpretation of events. I have read some of your opinions concerning basic biology, and because of that I can say that you are not all that good at examining evidence, nor are your handlers.

 

[if a man came along who believed as you do, who wanted to abandon it and make prayer in school a requirement, make Sunday church attendance mandatory, and limit media to only that which uplifts the Holy Spirit and Jesus, would you support him, or not? Why?]

 

Would you get dressed in a hat only and walk down the street naked?

No you need more than a hat. You need all your clothing and shoes.

Now you’re prepared.

Your concept of only or limited to … is not right. We need balance, as we are human.

We keep our hat on and put our clothes on it’s an entire ensemble.

It all works together. ….

We are to put God first; in all things and live this life.

 

You didn't answer my question. I am not sure what your hat analogy is supposed to mean.

[Moai]

Moai

Can you answer me these questions?

 

I'll try.

 

Who to define "good person"? What can be called a "good person"?

You define by yourself or defined by social standard?

 

Both. Cultural norms largely determine who is a "good" person, but in some cases I disagree. That is how society changes.

 

where did these social standards come from?

If defined by social standards, then when a person killed another one person secretly and nobody knows, if this person can be called "good person" ?

 

These social standards come from the culture that develops them. In some cultures, having multiple wives is ok. In another, having multiple husbands is ok. In some cultures, women are not fully citizens (this idea they get from a holy book, by the way).

 

If someone kills someone in secret, how would I know to NOT call him a good person? If by outward appearances he behaves according to the Golden Rule, then I would call him a good person. Of course, that is because I have no idea that he killed someone.

 

I know that you mean to imply that God would know, and judge him, but what if he repented and found Jesus just before he died? Nobody would know that he killed someone, but he would be forgiven and still get to Heaven. Is this not so? That being the case, your idea of supernatural justice is subverted.

 

What make a person improve their moral level?

 

Making mistakes and learning from them.

 

You well know the Bible, so you know the story of Cain who killed his brother out of jealousy.

Sin invariably begins with an inner attitude that underlies the outward action of the outward sin. At any point along the way, Cain could have broken from this destructive cycle through confession of his sin and repentance and a return to the Lord. Instead, he continues to spiral downward throughout this entire chapter

 

And why was Cain jealous? Because he was a farmer, and God preferred Abel's blood sacrifices to Cain's vegetable ones. Cain saw that God favored Abel, and so killed him.

 

And what was the punishment? Cain was sent to another place, and a mark was placed on him so that nobody would seek revenge on him for Abel's death. Interesting turn of events.

 

What to determine "moral level"? or just do whatever you want to do?

 

Yes, I do. Anything I do is moral as long as it doesn't hurt another person.

 

What can transfer a "bad person" into a "good person"?

 

Prison, maybe. It may only work in a few cases, I don't know. Other than that, someone who hurts other people for his own gain or enjoyment will probably keep doing so. Most people hurt others by accident, and don't do the same thing again. Society would not work if this weren't the case.

 

If we are only animal consist of cells, what meaning is of life? survival of the fittest? where are guarantees of human values? Fittest?

 

The meaning of life is determined by the individual. And yes, the fittest organism for a particular environment will have a better chance to pass on its genes to its offspring.

 

I have explained this to you before, but by your above statement, you either don't get it or don't want to accept it, but "fittest" doesn't mean "strongest" or "meanest" or the like.

 

Let's use frogs as an example. These frogs live in a pond, and are all the same size. Over a few generations, the pond gets cooler. Some frogs have difficulty adapting to the cold, and so have more difficulty finding food and reproducing. Another segment of frogs does not have this problem, because they have a gene that helps them deal with the cold. The total number of frogs drops off, as only the segment with the "cold gene" can reproduce. Within a few more generations, all the frogs in the pond will have the cold gene, and the ones without are gone. The frog population again increases to the level the pond can sustain. That's how natural selection works. The frogs with the "cold gene" are "fitter" for their environment, and so they survive and can pass their genes on to the next generation. You can go outside and watch this happen. It is happening all around you all the time, even.

 

As far as human values go, evidence suggests that altruism has an evolutionary benefit. The people who helped each other had a better chance of survival than those who did not, and so those who did not died out. This innate morality is subject to cultural influence, of course.

[Moai]

I just read Philo Judaes' Embassy to Gaius in which he approaches the emperor Caligula to try and dissuade him from erecting a statue of himself in the Great Temple and I'm more convinced than ever that the Jews were the most noble culture of antiquity and that the West needed to be effectivley Judaized to advance from barbarism.

 

I don't know. I think that the Greeks were a pretty noble culture.

 

And while certain Roman emperors were not anything close to what I would call moral, it does not follow that all Romans were like that. I would say quite the reverse, as when Christianity was at the height of its power those centuries are referred to as the Dark Ages. I don't think that is coincidental.

 

I have recently been reading about Judaic justice in the time that Jesus was said to have lived, and it was certainly more compassionate than most people realize. I know I didn't. I would definitely put the Jews in the Top Five for the times.

 

I am reading more about the Ancient Chinese, too, and they had a pretty good thing going, as did India. I reserve the right to amend that statement as I examine more evidence, of course!

[Moai]

_______________________________________________

 

 

No man knows the Day or the Hour of Rapture.

 

Exactly. So all the quotes you have been listing are meaningless.

 

You can take a babe in Christ sit the bible before them; requeting they explain what each parable means. Claim; if you get one wrong ...

your not one of Lords sheep; instead you’re a goat.

 

That’s not right… I witnessed this happen to a group of new in Christ.

 

Huh? I have no idea what this means.

 

Are you saying that someone who just became born-again must be instructed in doctrine? I admit that is the case, but it shouldn't be, given your claims of the Holy Spirit.

 

------

 

We are to study to show ourselves approved.

 

2 Timothy 2:15

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

We are never finished learning and growing in the Lord.

As for the more knowledgeable theologians that have studied they can still find something they missed and come forward to say… I misunderstood I was wrong and now I see.

 

I have never seen this happen.

 

I’ve heard many of them as they grow in the Lord make retractions and explain their new conception and how it was derived. It’s an ongoing learning growing in the Lord walk.

 

Why are they to be listened to? What if the Holy Spirit tells you that they are wrong?

 

[An iron rod? That doesn't sound too loving to me.]

 

Is not a weapon to beat people up with…

Its His government... His Law His way…

 

Then what is the rod for? If it is a metaphorical rod, then what that means is there will be no allowance for mitigating circumstances, which human justice allows for. Again, we see that human justice is superior to god's.

 

The Jews will not be stirred until the Tribulation.

 

Doesn't look like that is going to happen any time soon. 37% of Israelis do not believe in god. that is one of the highest percentages in the world. In the US, for example, it's around 4%.

 

[i can't see how any plans you make for Heaven could possibly be realized.

I am going to go to Valhalla, Thor willing.]

 

Sounds hopeless…

 

I could say the same to you. If I die in battle, I go straight to Valhalla. If there is no battle going on, if I have a sword in my hand that is good enough. I have a sword on me at all times for just this reason.

[sb129]

Rather than continue to try and articulate and justify my views on the Bible myself, I am going to quote from a very clever man whose work I am finding fascinating at the moment.

 

Seeing as everyone else quotes other peoples words, I thought I might have a go too.

it certainly sums up my feelings about the Bible.

 

"Whether true or not, the Bible is held up to us as the source of our morality.

And the bible story of Joshuas destruction of the people of jericho and the invasion of the promised land in general is morally INDISTINGUISHABLE from Hitlers invasion of Poland, or Saddam Husseins massacre of the Kurds.

The Bible may be an arresting and poetic work of fiction, but it is not the sort of book you should give your children to form their morals."

-Richard Dawkins.

[Moai]

we all come into this world knowing that we have an expiration date, agreed?

 

Sort of. The notion of one's own mortality begins at around the teenage years, but grows and changes over time. But I see what you're getting at.

 

Somewhere along the line, we begin being bombarded with ideas that we can circumvent the natural aging process through plastic surgery, through the latest fad diet, through embracing the idea that there's some process that would allow them to go into cold storage to return at a later date .... I am not arguing that medicine is bad or wrong for delivering people from their illnesses, because that's what it is designed to do. However, there are people who want to take those medical advances one step further to circumvent the natural aging process because they are afraid of that process, and of dying.

 

The aging process cannot be circumvented. Plastic surgery can alter the appearance of age, but it does nothing for the internal organs or nervous system and how those systems deteriorate.

 

Diet and exercise have a demonstrable effect on longevity.

 

There are certainly people out there who have their bodies frozen in the hope that they will eventually be revived, but there aren't many, and such a thing is doubtful to ever happen. But hey, it's their money.

 

We do live in a youth-obsessed culture. But I don't think that people in the US fear dying more than they do anywhere else. Hence religion promising that death is not the end.

 

I have a great quote about death. I think it was Epicurus who said, "Why fear death? If death is, than I am not. If I am, then death is not. Why fear that which is not?" Pretty cool.

 

I am not afraid of death, but I do what I can to extend the life I have, as it is the only one I've got, and I enjoy living. I don't care if I wrinkle and things like that--I think most people don't. But there are those that do. You can't make it against the law to be shallow. I'm not saying that you would want to, I'm just making an observation.

 

someone – I think it was a4a – who said she wasn't afraid of dying, and I think that's because she's prolly well-grounded into the life cycle because of the work she does with animals. She's seen death and she's seen how medical care can help prolong the quality of her animals lives by healing them when that healing is possible.

 

same with people who have chronic illnesses – they understand that only medication can do only so much to provide quality of life. The difference between those who choose assisted suicide/euthanasia/suicide and those who don't lay in their perception of the dying process. Pain is a given, though the degree and kind varies among patients, so surely this can't be the sole factor that casts the deciding vote to take one's own life. Personally, I think it's motivated by fear of the dying process and of a devalued sense of their own dignity. But hey, that's my thought on things. Not wrong, not right, just my opinion up for grabs.

 

Nope. Acceptance of the dying process is irrelevant in most cases. People die from a great many diseases, and they are not all equally painful, as you say. Nerve disorders are agonizingly painful, and eventually reach a point where pain killers do little, if anything. The person can live for months in unimaginable agony. For what? Why not just end it and spare one's self the suffering? I think that someone who would make that decision doesn't fear death or the dying process at all--in fact, they are embracing it. They would just rather slip quietly into death on their terms with as little pain as possible. And I don't blame them. Are you saying that this needless suffering has some purpose?

 

You are wrong, too, in your dignity comment. They seek death on their own terms to preserve their dignity. With some brain cancers, the patient will eventually lose control of their bowels, their ability to feed themselves or even speak. They remain fully conscious, but are in agonizing pain and are aware that either a family member or nurse has to clean them after they excrete waste all over the bed. They would rather go out when they have their faculties and dignity in tact, rather than descend into virtual infancy--and a painful infancy at that.

 

Of course I am a literalist. Half the problem with relgions and faith is that they don't take their texts literally, which leaves the door wide open for misinterpretation.

 

to which I say to you, who are learned: what part of "the Bible is a history of the spiritual journey of man" don't you comprehend? You refute it as a historical document, but ironically, you assign it that same value when you complain about people of faith not taking their texts literally! Yes, there are going to be people who see the Bible as historical fact, and there are those who acknowlege it as a spiritual documentation of man's journey, all in the name of faith. What camp will you fall under?

 

Literalism. It must be so. If the Fall of Man did not happen as described in Genesis did not happen, there is no reason for Jesus to have been sacrificed.

 

If this is not the case, then any book can be a spiritual guide, and one isn't any better than another.

 

I have no idea how the Bible describes man's spiritual journey the way I think you mean it. I am interested to learn more, if you are willing.

 

As I mentioned earlier, Genesis must be true or there is no reason for Jesus. Since I know that the Genesis account did not happen, I can therefore conclude that the Jesus story is a myth. There are other reasons, too, but that is a pretty good one.

 

[Moai]

Rather than continue to try and articulate and justify my views on the Bible myself, I am going to quote from a very clever man whose work I am finding fascinating at the moment.

 

Seeing as everyone else quotes other peoples words, I thought I might have a go too.

it certainly sums up my feelings about the Bible.

 

"Whether true or not, the Bible is held up to us as the source of our morality.

And the bible story of Joshuas destruction of the people of jericho and the invasion of the promised land in general is morally INDISTINGUISHABLE from Hitlers invasion of Poland, or Saddam Husseins massacre of the Kurds.

The Bible may be an arresting and poetic work of fiction, but it is not the sort of book you should give your children to form their morals."

-Richard Dawkins.

 

Dawkins is so awesome. I have watched some of his lectures, Q&A sessions, and interviews and he never ceases to challenge and amaze me. His books are wonderful, too. A brilliant and thoughtful man.

[lonelybird]

Psamls 22:16

Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.

 

Old Testament (Isaiah 53:7):

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

 

Old Testament (Isaiah 53:5):

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

 

Jesus died for me, Jesus cares about oppressed, poor, anyone who need Him and call upon Him. Jesus loves us so much.

[Love Hurts]

Exactly. So all the quotes you have been listing are meaningless.

 

 

 

Huh? I have no idea what this means.

 

Are you saying that someone who just became born-again must be instructed in doctrine? I admit that is the case, but it shouldn't be, given your claims of the Holy Spirit.

 

------

 

 

 

I have never seen this happen.

 

 

 

Why are they to be listened to? What if the Holy Spirit tells you that they are wrong?

 

 

 

Then what is the rod for? If it is a metaphorical rod, then what that means is there will be no allowance for mitigating circumstances, which human justice allows for. Again, we see that human justice is superior to god's.

 

 

 

Doesn't look like that is going to happen any time soon. 37% of Israelis do not believe in god. that is one of the highest percentages in the world. In the US, for example, it's around 4%.

 

 

 

I could say the same to you. If I die in battle, I go straight to Valhalla. If there is no battle going on, if I have a sword in my hand that is good enough. I have a sword on me at all times for just this reason.

 

 

Lets compare the sign watching to a pregnancy at the end of the nine months.

 

know the baby is due… but what day what time?

Rapture signs are fulfilled; its time to go … now we wait on the Lord.

Can’t be long now.

I know what He waits on.

I know what the hold up is…

 

Its you and other unsaved, He waits for who so ever will come … come.

He waits for any and all on this side of rapture. He is holding for more.

 

[Are you saying that someone who just became born-again must be instructed in doctrine? I admit that is the case, but it shouldn't be, given your claims of the Holy Spirit.]

 

Study the word to show yourself approved… Just because one is saved does not mean hey’re instantly; a walking- talking Bible.

 

You know something some of it. You have toread and study and put things together for greater understanding… in time through study … the word brings forth a clearer picture. Study.

 

[As for the more knowledgeable theologians that have studied they can still find something they missed and come forward to say… I misunderstood I was wrong and now I see. I have never seen this happen.]

 

-Ok lets consider it this way… If the scripture tells us to study to show ourselves approved; that means we need to learn.

 

None of us are saved and instantly know the Bible cover to cover.

 

It’s why there are Bible studies; crash into one on the net and see the study going on.

 

[Why are they to be listened to? What if the Holy Spirit tells you that they are wrong? ]

 

Some ministers of the word I have listened to turn me off … Some I know are right on.. I feel the anointing of the Holy Spirit as they preach the word…. Awesome!!!!!!!

Praise Jesus! Discern.

 

 

[Doesn't look like that is going to happen any time soon. 37% of Israelis do not believe in god. that is one of the highest percentages in the world. In the US, for example, it's around 4%].

 

It would appear that citizens would U.S. would ever loose its constitutional rights.

Until you look at FEMA …

 

 

[i could say the same to you. If I die in battle, I go straight to Valhalla. If there is no battle going on, if I have a sword in my hand that is good enough. I have a sword on me at all times for just this reason.]

 

Spiritually speaking here.

Did you know with Christ you are armed?

 

He who is you is greater he who is in the world?

 

[1 John 4:4]

The Holy Spirit is of God… God is greater than Satan.

I carry a sword too.

[sb129]

Lets compare the sign watching to a pregnancy at the end of the nine months.

 

know the baby is due… but what day what time?

Rapture signs are fulfilled; its time to go … now we wait on the Lord.

Can’t be long now.

I know what He waits on.

I know what the hold up is…

 

Its you and other unsaved, He waits for who so ever will come … come.

He waits for any and all on this side of rapture. He is holding for more.

 

What a ridiculous analogy.

[Love Hurts]

What a ridiculous analogy.

 

It lacks the passion of Atheism Dawkins offers.

[Island Girl]

Lets compare the sign watching to a pregnancy at the end of the nine months.

 

know the baby is due… but what day what time?

Rapture signs are fulfilled; its time to go … now we wait on the Lord.

Can’t be long now.

I know what He waits on.

I know what the hold up is…

 

Its you and other unsaved, He waits for who so ever will come … come.

He waits for any and all on this side of rapture. He is holding for more.

 

 

 

Then it NEVER going to happen -

 

Over 4 million babies are born each year in the US alone.

 

And then you have the population of China, etc.

 

You've got to be kidding with this!? I know you don't really believe this?!!

[Love Hurts]

 

Then it NEVER going to happen -

 

Over 4 million babies are born each year in the US alone.

 

And then you have the population of China, etc.

 

You've got to be kidding with this!? I know you don't really believe this?!!

 

You are clearly lost in my analogy of time expectancy without date setting.

 

In knowing there is a child without doubt that is due to arrive… and you do indeed expect…you are prepared and joyously expect; eagerly look forward to soon.

 

This analogy is not to consider every single female in the world that is due to give birth.

 

This focus is extremely narrow. Its on say one imaginable pregnancy.

I hope this makes more sense. Its to expect without date setting or knwoledge of accurate time of day.

 

Because no man knows the day or the hour. Still we know Our Lord is due to arrive.

[Moai]

Lets compare the sign watching to a pregnancy at the end of the nine months.

 

know the baby is due… but what day what time?

Rapture signs are fulfilled; its time to go … now we wait on the Lord.

Can’t be long now.

I know what He waits on.

I know what the hold up is…

 

Your analogy, while quite wacky, is wrong.

 

We know that a woman will have a baby in approximately nine months, give or take a few weeks. Once she becomes pregnant, that is a foregone conclusion, and the date of delivery can be accurately predicted.

 

However, to continue your analogy, it has yet to be determined in this case if the woman is pregnant at all, and that being said we cannot determine if there will be a baby in the first place.

 

It has been 2,000 years since Jesus said he would be back. There have been hundreds of predictions setting a specific day, and thousands of assertions that we are in the end times....and yet we are still here, and no sign of Jesus. Given the track record, I doubt that the Rapture is imminent.

 

Its you and other unsaved, He waits for who so ever will come … come.

He waits for any and all on this side of rapture. He is holding for more.

 

I know he isn't waiting for me, because if he knew my heart (which you claim he does) he knows that it'll never happen. But I don't for a minute think that he even exists, so that pretty much takes care of it.

 

[Are you saying that someone who just became born-again must be instructed in doctrine? I admit that is the case, but it shouldn't be, given your claims of the Holy Spirit.]

 

Study the word to show yourself approved… Just because one is saved does not mean hey’re instantly; a walking- talking Bible.

 

I know. But, there are so many interpretations of the Bible, he novice cannot possibly know which is right until he follows one for a while. And chances are he'll follow the one that "feels" right, and find scripture to back that up. See, the belief doesn't come from scripture, scripture is used to support the belief. It must be so, or there would be only one interpretation and there would be one Christian church and that would be it.

 

The same goes for Islam. Sunnis and Shiites blow each other up because they interpret the book differently. One wonders how anyone could look at the Koran and imagine it to be the word of god.

 

Christians (outside of Ireland, anyway) don't blow each other up, at least. They would in a second if the secular idea of religious tolerance were not held in such high regard in the West.

 

You know something some of it. You have toread and study and put things together for greater understanding… in time through study … the word brings forth a clearer picture. Study.

 

It is doing precisely that which led me to being an atheist.

 

[As for the more knowledgeable theologians that have studied they can still find something they missed and come forward to say… I misunderstood I was wrong and now I see. I have never seen this happen.]

 

-Ok lets consider it this way… If the scripture tells us to study to show ourselves approved; that means we need to learn.

 

Interesting point. Why do you have to show yourself approved? It turns out that you really do care what people think about your beliefs, right?

 

None of us are saved and instantly know the Bible cover to cover.

 

It’s why there are Bible studies; crash into one on the net and see the study going on.

 

I know, but while reading it the Bible should be readily understandable if it was written by god. But it isn't, hence all the studying going on.

 

I'll use biology as an example. People are studying biology all the time. Why? Because there is constantly new information coming in, that needs to be analyzed and understood.

 

The Bible has been the same for the last 1500 years or so. And yet nobody has figured it out yet, and people must keep studying it, and they disagree, and always will.

 

[Why are they to be listened to? What if the Holy Spirit tells you that they are wrong? ]

 

Some ministers of the word I have listened to turn me off … Some I know are right on.. I feel the anointing of the Holy Spirit as they preach the word…. Awesome!!!!!!!

Praise Jesus! Discern.

 

You are just restating my assertion. Other people obviously follow the preachers who turn you off. Why? They believe and are filled with the Holy Spirit, too.

 

 

[Doesn't look like that is going to happen any time soon. 37% of Israelis do not believe in god. that is one of the highest percentages in the world. In the US, for example, it's around 4%].

 

It would appear that citizens would U.S. would ever loose its constitutional rights.

Until you look at FEMA …

 

Our rights have been in danger since the Constitution was ratified. It is a constant battle between the federalism state's rights, and the right's of the individual.

 

[i could say the same to you. If I die in battle, I go straight to Valhalla. If there is no battle going on, if I have a sword in my hand that is good enough. I have a sword on me at all times for just this reason.]

 

Spiritually speaking here.

Did you know with Christ you are armed?

 

He who is you is greater he who is in the world?

 

[1 John 4:4]

The Holy Spirit is of God… God is greater than Satan.

I carry a sword too.

 

But yours is a metaphorical sword, which Thor does not recognize. When the Valkyries ride down from Valhalla to collect the brave and the strong, where will you be? Will you join with them and raise your sword in triumph and glory, or will they pass you by, leaving you in the dust of the vanquished?

[Moai]

God treat me so good, I like to boast about it:laugh: . why hide?

God is a good God

 

And boasting is pride, which god hates. Tsk tsk.

[lonelybird]

And boasting is pride, which god hates. Tsk tsk.

But I boast about God, not myself

[lonelybird]

......

 

 

 

You are just restating my assertion. Other people obviously follow the preachers who turn you off. Why? They believe and are filled with the Holy Spirit, too.

......

I have same experience too. Some preachers just put me off. some articles can put me off. Holy Spirit is working in me and tell me the right directions. I know who is working for Lord, who isn't really. or at the time led by carnal or led by spirit...

[Moai]

I have same experience too. Some preachers just put me off. some articles can put me off. Holy Spirit is working in me and tell me the right directions. I know who is working for Lord, who isn't really. or at the time led by carnal or led by spirit...

 

Which shows that the Holy Spirit is not reliable in determining who is "of the Lord" and who is not.

 

Every single Christian faith claims to follow the direction of the Holy Spirit. And it is leading them in 1500 different directions.

 

You say you know who is working for the Lord and who isn't. Every single believer thinks exactly the same as you, yet they follow very different things. I have asked this repeatedly and have not yet heard an answer, let alone a satisfactory one: How is this possible, and how canne determine who is right?

 

The facts is, you can't. As I said in another post, you follow the teachings that you like, and ignore the ones you don't. These others do the same. You claim that you are solid in your faith and trust the Holy Spirit. So do they. All of you cannot be correct--but it is possible that you are all wrong.

 

When the Heaven's Gate cult committed mass suicide in order to join the spaceship flying in the wake of the Hale-Bopp comet, they were secure in their belief. Some of the male members were even voluntarily castrated, and then the ate a sedative and put plastic bags on their heads.

 

These people weren't ignorant or stupid. Many of them had advanced degrees in various subjects. The one thing they had in common was that they were positive that they had the answer--and did not apply skepticism to their beliefs. Just like you. Granted, they were not Christians, but the principle is the same.

 

Another important thing to keep in mind is that all of you are using the same book. You are reading the same chapters, verses, and quotes. You are all praying for the Holy Spirit to guide you and lead you to Heaven.

 

You have said, and the Bible says, that "ask and ye shall be given", and that the Holy Spirit and Jesus will come to and save all who ask. Well, if that is true, again there would be one expression of Christianity and one only. Since that is obviously not the case, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are actually ignoring some people who ask for their help. Given what we see, it must be so.

 

The people that flock to Benny Hinn crusades, that send money to Robert Tilton, that support Ted Haggart, one and all feel the Holy Spirit is guiding them to follow those men. Men who are at best immoral, at worst downright evil. Why is it so easy to prey upon the fears and hopes of innocent people, if the Holy Spirit is there to help them?

 

I would never be fooled by those men, simply because I know that faith healing is a myth and that the "Word of Faith" is an illusion. My skepticism keep me from becoming a victim of these charlatans and liars.

 

Not so the believers. Certainly, there are those who accept the Christian view of God but not Benny Hinn, but on what basis? If you accept the word of god, you must accept that faith healing is possible.

 

I was watching Creflo Dollar on television some time ago and he claimed to have raised a woman from the dead on the steps of Arco Arena in Sacramento, CA. All the people in attendance praised the Lord and shouted His Mighty Name, not once asking, "Prove it." Creflo danced around, praise rang out, and the coffers of his ministry swelled. At no point did anyone ask these simple questions: How do you know she was dead? Why wasn't this reported in the newspaper, or on every news channel on the planet? A pastor who can raise people from the dead is pretty big news, huh? Doctors were not called in to examine the woman to see what killed her and what was miraculously cured to bring her back.

 

That's because it didn't happen. Creflo Dollar is lying. I know he is lying, because people do NOT rise from the dead. Certainly, there are people who have experienced clinical death and been revived, but that is different than "death." And there was no medical equipment available, just Creflo and his magic hands.

 

Skepticism, not the Holy Spirit is the best way to examine such a claim, as the Spirit filled believers didn't even bother. The Holy Spirit didn't tell them "put away your wallet, he's lying" did it?

[lonelybird]

Which shows that the Holy Spirit is not reliable in determining who is "of the Lord" and who is not.

 

Every single Christian faith claims to follow the direction of the Holy Spirit. And it is leading them in 1500 different directions.

 

You say you know who is working for the Lord and who isn't. Every single believer thinks exactly the same as you, yet they follow very different things. I have asked this repeatedly and have not yet heard an answer, let alone a satisfactory one: How is this possible, and how canne determine who is right?

 

The facts is, you can't. As I said in another post, you follow the teachings that you like, and ignore the ones you don't. These others do the same. You claim that you are solid in your faith and trust the Holy Spirit. So do they. All of you cannot be correct--but it is possible that you are all wrong.

 

When the Heaven's Gate cult committed mass suicide in order to join the spaceship flying in the wake of the Hale-Bopp comet, they were secure in their belief. Some of the male members were even voluntarily castrated, and then the ate a sedative and put plastic bags on their heads.

 

These people weren't ignorant or stupid. Many of them had advanced degrees in various subjects. The one thing they had in common was that they were positive that they had the answer--and did not apply skepticism to their beliefs. Just like you. Granted, they were not Christians, but the principle is the same.

 

Another important thing to keep in mind is that all of you are using the same book. You are reading the same chapters, verses, and quotes. You are all praying for the Holy Spirit to guide you and lead you to Heaven.

 

You have said, and the Bible says, that "ask and ye shall be given", and that the Holy Spirit and Jesus will come to and save all who ask. Well, if that is true, again there would be one expression of Christianity and one only. Since that is obviously not the case, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are actually ignoring some people who ask for their help. Given what we see, it must be so.

 

The people that flock to Benny Hinn crusades, that send money to Robert Tilton, that support Ted Haggart, one and all feel the Holy Spirit is guiding them to follow those men. Men who are at best immoral, at worst downright evil. Why is it so easy to prey upon the fears and hopes of innocent people, if the Holy Spirit is there to help them?

 

I would never be fooled by those men, simply because I know that faith healing is a myth and that the "Word of Faith" is an illusion. My skepticism keep me from becoming a victim of these charlatans and liars.

 

Not so the believers. Certainly, there are those who accept the Christian view of God but not Benny Hinn, but on what basis? If you accept the word of god, you must accept that faith healing is possible.

 

I was watching Creflo Dollar on television some time ago and he claimed to have raised a woman from the dead on the steps of Arco Arena in Sacramento, CA. All the people in attendance praised the Lord and shouted His Mighty Name, not once asking, "Prove it." Creflo danced around, praise rang out, and the coffers of his ministry swelled. At no point did anyone ask these simple questions: How do you know she was dead? Why wasn't this reported in the newspaper, or on every news channel on the planet? A pastor who can raise people from the dead is pretty big news, huh? Doctors were not called in to examine the woman to see what killed her and what was miraculously cured to bring her back.

 

That's because it didn't happen. Creflo Dollar is lying. I know he is lying, because people do NOT rise from the dead. Certainly, there are people who have experienced clinical death and been revived, but that is different than "death." And there was no medical equipment available, just Creflo and his magic hands.

 

Skepticism, not the Holy Spirit is the best way to examine such a claim, as the Spirit filled believers didn't even bother. The Holy Spirit didn't tell them "put away your wallet, he's lying" did it?

If you don't have Holy Spirit in you, You won't understand how He works. You need to be more humble, you know, so you can invite Him into your heart, then you will know. You'd be relaxed rather that sweat

[Moai]

If you don't have Holy Spirit in you, You won't understand how He works. You need to be more humble, you know, so you can invite Him into your heart, then you will know. You'd be relaxed rather that sweat

 

That's just the point. I asked Jesus into my heart when I was 17. I read the bible,and prayed for forgiveness and direction. I meant all of it at the time.

 

And now I am an atheist. How can that be? I have known the Holy Spirit, same as you. And it is not difficult to discern how the Holy Spirit works, you have described it. All believers describe it. I have felt it--or rather, I was deluding myself and thought it was the Holy Spirit.

 

So, the Holy Spirit abandoned me outright, by your rationale, and just doesn't help some people even though they believe to the end. The fact is that there are basically 1500 different groups of people claiming to hear the Holy Spirit, and calling all the other 1499 groups wrong, misguided, or whatever.

 

Your above post just dodged the issue. You have not even attempted to explain how this can be, yet again. You just said since I don't have the Holy Spirit I can't know how it works. The difference between me and the others with whom you disagree is that I don't believe in the Holy Spirit, and they do. How can someone believe in the Holy Spirit and yet not experience it?

[lonelybird]

.....

So, the Holy Spirit abandoned me outright, ......

Without light people cannot choose, but you knew the light and exposed under the light. you have to choose now after you exposed under the light. you have to choose to continue to believe in God, or you refuse to see through the science and rational phenomenon to see God.

 

Not that Holy Spirit abandoned you, but you stopped to listen to Him and you abandoned Holy Spirit.

[Moai]

Without light people cannot choose, but you knew the light and exposed under the light. you have to choose now after you exposed under the light. you have to choose to continue to believe in God, or you refuse to see through the science and rational phenomenon to see God.

 

Not that Holy Spirit abandoned you, but you stopped to listen to Him and you abandoned Holy Spirit.

 

That is certainly possible, but I doubt it very seriously.

 

I think I have told you before that one of the main reasons I eventually became an atheist was because of Creationism. Seeing the lies these men engage in and the oppressive theocracies that they would install made me shudder.

 

The main question I asked was, "Why would god need someone to lie for him?" and the answer is he wouldn't, if he existed. And so here I am.

[lonelybird]

That is certainly possible, but I doubt it very seriously.

 

I think I have told you before that one of the main reasons I eventually became an atheist was because of Creationism. Seeing the lies these men engage in and the oppressive theocracies that they would install made me shudder.

 

The main question I asked was, "Why would god need someone to lie for him?" and the answer is he wouldn't, if he existed. And so here I am.

God didn't want somebody lie for Him. Did you ask God about that?