How many Bibles are there?

[Fun2BMe]

There actually is no "universal version of the bible".

 

The versions of the bible state different things - in some versions completely different.

 

This is supposed to be the literal word of God. As such there should only been one version -- one translation into each language.

 

But there isn't.

 

If it is indeed the word of God then all of His words are important, are they not? So all of the books of the bible should be included in any representation of what God actually said.

 

It is not up to man in any way shape or form to make up different interpretations, or decide what is valid to include and what is unnecessary in the first place -- at least that is what God says.

 

However, man has found it necessary to do so.

 

So the question to the LS posters out there, which one is right?

 

And how do you come to that conclusion?

 

 

Well, if you take God's words seriously in the old testament, then anything that comes afterwards is false. The ten commandments starts out with there is only one God and that is me, then Jesus comes along and says he is the trinity - God, God's son and the father all in one. The next commandment says not to worship any idols, yet Christians worship idols of the cross, the virgin mary and so on. So it depends where you draw the line.

 

Do you want to continue believing things as God's word written hundreds of years after his original words, or do you want to stop where he ends his words with saying they stand for all eternity and anything written afterwards are not to be believed. I think people should have the freedom to choose what they feel to be correct in their hearts but I hate it when they try to convert or change someone else's mind, I respect whatever people believe.

 

But again, there is one set of writing - the original manuscripts which can not be disputed, and from there man is free to interpret them in a billion ways to fit there agenda or else just take it at face value and keep the traditional, original interpretation. God also says originally that he will never take on a human form and come to earth like a human being and not to believe in anyone who does.

 

Then hundreds of years later Jesus comes along and says he is God in human form and those who choose not to believe that to thise day millions have been killed for it. You can't make someone believe something by force. Therefore I think that people should be free to accept whatever number of books they want to and the more books someone accepts does not mean they are more correct in my opinion. That seems like an immature, intollerant and incorrect approach yet one Christians live by.

[Topper]

Fun2bme,

We do agree on one point. That is that Christians are practicing the wrong faith. I have felt for a very long time that Jesus never claimed to be The actual son of God. Jews in that time often referred to themselves as sons of God. I do see Jesus as a great Rabbi. If you have read any of my other post on the subject you would know that i feel Paul hijacked the Jesus movement and made it something new. It took about 400 years but it did morph into a new version of the old roman pagan religion of Mithra.

As for the bible being Gods word you would have to define how you mean that. Was it written by God? or was this inspired writing? The ancient documents that made up the bible are not all the same . Again the dead sea scrolls show in some cases that there are variations on the same books. in others the books are the same.

Much of the story we know as the old testament are passed down oral tails. Some come directly from Sumerian text. The story of Noah's Ark is also the same story as an ancient Sumerian tail of great flood. Sumerian is the first written language. it is more then likely that the Jews borrowed those stories and over time made them their own. The Sumerian text per date any known Jewish text by maybe a 1000 years.

As far as Moses and the Exodus Isrealie archaeologist are now convinced it never happened. At some point the Bible says Moses had an a army of 600,000 men. That many people would leave an inprint on the land. There isn't one shed of evidence to support that many people traveling across the Sini. The Egyptians would have also made some mention of that many slaves just up and leaving. There is no Egyptian record of an event like that. It is much later that the Hebrew Bible gets a lot clearer on it's history. The stories are embellished to give a rather small weak nation a sense of pride in themselves and their God. despite the fact that for a great Part of the history of Israel and Judea were under someones else control. The Jews did not assimilate. You have to give them credit for that. They remained who they were.

[burning 4 revenge]

I'm not so sure about Jesus never claiming to be the Son of God Topper. It's possible that that was Paul's contribution, but you have to keep in mind that the were Greeks all over Palestine and more so in Galilee than in Judah. Galilee also didn't have a long tradition of Judaism. Just one hundred years prior to Jesus' birth they had been forcibly converted. Before that they would have been culturally semitic, but not Jewish and their customs would have been those of the Hellenized Assyrians.

 

I'm not sying that Jesus absolutely made that claim, but to say that he didn't is based on pure specualtion. There is no way to know and that is the bottom line.

[Fun2BMe]

Fun2bme,

We do agree on one point. That is that Christians are practicing the wrong faith. I have felt for a very long time that Jesus never claimed to be The actual son of God. Jews in that time often referred to themselves as sons of God. I do see Jesus as a great Rabbi. If you have read any of my other post on the subject you would know that i feel Paul hijacked the Jesus movement and made it something new. It took about 400 years but it did morph into a new version of the old roman pagan religion of Mithra.

 

Well, first of all I don't believe that Christians are pracatcing the 'wrong' faith. I respect the choice of religion one believes in. The first 30 years of Jesus's life is a mystery. The only references made in the new testament about him was that from the age of 12 he spent his entire days discussing religion with the rabbis in the temple. In Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus says that whoever violates Jewish law and teaches others to do the same "will be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven". After his death his disciples continued to folllow his message to observe Jewish Law and prayed at the jewish temples, and Acts 10:14 talks about how seriously Peter observed all of the Kosher laws. Jesus's brother James says "unless you yourselves have been circumcised in the tradition of Moses, you cannot be saved." So obviously over time his teachings were sculpted to fit ulterior motives and what he believed in and did in the first 30 years of his life has been hidden along with the truth of the rest of his life.

 

 

As for the bible being Gods word you would have to define how you mean that. Was it written by God? or was this inspired writing? The ancient documents that made up the bible are not all the same . Again the dead sea scrolls show in some cases that there are variations on the same books. in others the books are the same.

Much of the story we know as the old testament are passed down oral tails. Some come directly from Sumerian text.

Again, everyone is free to have their beliefs but it can never be made into scientific fact. Most Jews believe the old testament was recited word for word to Moses. The first set of 10 commandments were written by God but crushed when the golden calf was made to worship. He then went and wrote them on stone himself.

 

The story of Noah's Ark is also the same story as an ancient Sumerian tail of great flood. Sumerian is the first written language. it is more then likely that the Jews borrowed those stories and over time made them their own. The Sumerian text per date any known Jewish text by maybe a 1000 years.

As far as Moses and the Exodus Isrealie archaeologist are now convinced it never happened. At some point the Bible says Moses had an a army of 600,000 men. That many people would leave an inprint on the land. There isn't one shed of evidence to support that many people traveling across the Sini. The Egyptians would have also made some mention of that many slaves just up and leaving. There is no Egyptian record of an event like that. It is much later that the Hebrew Bible gets a lot clearer on it's history. The stories are embellished to give a rather small weak nation a sense of pride in themselves and their God. despite the fact that for a great Part of the history of Israel and Judea were under someones else control. The Jews did not assimilate. You have to give them credit for that. They remained who they were.

 

It does bother me that people try to make religion scientific, they try to provide scientific theories to the miracles. That really doesn't make sense to me since religion is based on faith and not science and I wouldn't expect to find science to support my beliefs and find the ones that do support any of it ridiculous and unbelievable, like all the science to back up the 10 plagues. So annoying and unreligious.

[Island Girl]

It does bother me that people try to make religion scientific, they try to provide scientific theories to the miracles. That really doesn't make sense to me since religion is based on faith and not science and I wouldn't expect to find science to support my beliefs and find the ones that do support any of it ridiculous and unbelievable, like all the science to back up the 10 plagues. So annoying and unreligious.

 

I love what you said here.

 

I believe science.

 

I believe in evidence.

 

That is why I do not believe in religion.

[lonelybird]

Well, if you take God's words seriously in the old testament, then anything that comes afterwards is false. The ten commandments starts out with there is only one God and that is me, then Jesus comes along and says he is the trinity - God, God's son and the father all in one. The next commandment says not to worship any idols, yet Christians worship idols of the cross, the virgin mary and so on. So it depends where you draw the line.

 

Do you want to continue believing things as God's word written hundreds of years after his original words, or do you want to stop where he ends his words with saying they stand for all eternity and anything written afterwards are not to be believed. I think people should have the freedom to choose what they feel to be correct in their hearts but I hate it when they try to convert or change someone else's mind, I respect whatever people believe.

 

But again, there is one set of writing - the original manuscripts which can not be disputed, and from there man is free to interpret them in a billion ways to fit there agenda or else just take it at face value and keep the traditional, original interpretation. God also says originally that he will never take on a human form and come to earth like a human being and not to believe in anyone who does.

 

Then hundreds of years later Jesus comes along and says he is God in human form and those who choose not to believe that to thise day millions have been killed for it. You can't make someone believe something by force. Therefore I think that people should be free to accept whatever number of books they want to and the more books someone accepts does not mean they are more correct in my opinion. That seems like an immature, intollerant and incorrect approach yet one Christians live by.

Suppose there are A, B, C, D, E 5 roads. and there are only one road is saving, others are pits. If one person knew which road is saving for sure, does this person tell other persons to walk into pits or saving? IF this person knew which road is saving, and he keep silence about it, do you think he is doing right?

 

You talk about only OT is true, then why what happened to Jesus Christ fulfilled the prophecies in the Old Testament? If the New Testament isn't true, what about Holy Spirit? what about those healings through Holy Spirit? what about Holy Spirit testify Jesus Christ?

 

When Christians tell the good news, we never want to force anybody, because we know it is GOD who convert people's heart, not us. If a person heart change, it has own time, own place. we are not that pride to think we, human being, can change people's heart, not even mention by force. BUT as a believer, we should tell people the good news. If you say "tell" is "force", then I don't know what to say.

[Fun2BMe]

I love what you said here.

 

I believe science.

 

I believe in evidence.

 

That is why I do not believe in religion.

 

I love science and evidence too, but science can't explain why or how life and everything else in the universe was created.

[burning 4 revenge]

I love science and evidence too, but science can't explain why or how life and everything else in the universe was created.

Well nothing can, but if you were to credit nature and the universe to God, I would have to conclude that God is evil.

 

Nature is a killer. It destroys everything it creates. Everything ends in pain, misery and death. The only appropriate answer wouldn't be to worship God, but to spit in his face.

[Fun2BMe]

Suppose there are A, B, C, D, E 5 roads. and there are only one road is saving, others are pits. If one person knew which road is saving for sure, does this person tell other persons to walk into pits or saving? IF this person knew which road is saving, and he keep silence about it, do you think he is doing right?

 

You talk about only OT is true, then why what happened to Jesus Christ fulfilled the prophecies in the Old Testament? If the New Testament isn't true, what about Holy Spirit? what about those healings through Holy Spirit? what about Holy Spirit testify Jesus Christ?

 

When Christians tell the good news, we never want to force anybody, because we know it is GOD who convert people's heart, not us. If a person heart change, it has own time, own place. we are not that pride to think we, human being, can change people's heart, not even mention by force. BUT as a believer, we should tell people the good news. If you say "tell" is "force", then I don't know what to say.

 

Your post sounds good but unfortunately it is not true. Throughout my life Christians try to 'convert' me not knowing I am already christian because I am curious to hear what they have to say and that includes Mormons. I am not saying only the prophesies of the OT are true. And if you are openminded, just like you KNOW that what you believe in is true, somebody else can KNOW that what they believe is true too and to them what they believe is the good news. To you what you believe is the good news. You say "We never want to force anybody".

 

I guess you've never read a newspaper or a history book in your life or met someone trying to force you to believe in Christianity. Maybe you live in a bubble. I think Christians should go through a tollerance boot camp to learn to tolerate those who believe differently. And if Jesus fulfilled the prophesies as you say, there'd be world peace at the time he lived and now. If I tell you it will be good news for you to move to a different country, it might be good news to me but not to you. Everyone is different and what's good news to you may not be good news to somebody else.

 

In fact a few months ago two mormons gave me a book after talking to me in length trying to make me believe in their religion. In the cover they wrote down a few chapters in particular they wanted me to read and wrote "Read these things and ponder it in your heart. Then pray to see if these things are true. Specifically ask if Joseph Smith is a prophet and if the Book of Mormon is true." Then they wrote their names and phone number for me to reach them at. I would never call and tell them that what they believe in is wrong, that I have the good news and truth. I am assuming you'd do that. In fact out of curiosity I've read their recommendtations to learn just what it is that gets them to believe in what they believe in.

[lonelybird]

Your post sounds good but unfortunately it is not true. Throughout my life Christians try to 'convert' me not knowing I am already christian because I am curious to hear what they have to say and that includes Mormons. I am not saying only the prophesies of the OT are true. And if you are openminded, just like you KNOW that what you believe in is true, somebody else can KNOW that what they believe is true too and to them what they believe is the good news. To you what you believe is the good news. You say "We never want to force anybody".

 

I guess you've never read a newspaper or a history book in your life or met someone trying to force you to believe in Christianity. Maybe you live in a bubble. I think Christians should go through a tollerance boot camp to learn to tolerate those who believe differently. And if Jesus fulfilled the prophesies as you say, there'd be world peace at the time he lived and now. If I tell you it will be good news for you to move to a different country, it might be good news to me but not to you. Everyone is different and what's good news to you may not be good news to somebody else.

 

In fact a few months ago two mormons gave me a book after talking to me in length trying to make me believe in their religion. In the cover they wrote down a few chapters in particular they wanted me to read and wrote "Read these things and ponder it in your heart. Then pray to see if these things are true. Specifically ask if Joseph Smith is a prophet and if the Book of Mormon is true." Then they wrote their names and phone number for me to reach them at. I would never call and tell them that what they believe in is wrong, that I have the good news and truth. I am assuming you'd do that. In fact out of curiosity I've read their recommendtations to learn just what it is that gets them to believe in what they believe in.

If you are a Christian, you know what I am talking about. Tolerant other people who have different faith is based on LOVE which the whole Bible try to tell us to do, I can have good term with people who have different faith. I totally agree with you. but tolerant doesn't mean we should shut up and let them go to pits. We still can TELL. and THEY decide. no force here. If you call it force, Bible DO have rules, God do have commandments for his people. These commandments themselves have force and power. But it is not we, human being, who can force or not, God decide all.

 

And there are some belong to God, and there are some aren't. God look into people's heart, and God knows people's heart. Those belong to God will finally choose God; those whose heart far from God won't choose God.

[Fun2BMe]

Suppose there are A, B, C, D, E 5 roads. and there are only one road is saving, others are pits. If one person knew which road is saving for sure, does this person tell other persons to walk into pits or saving? IF this person knew which road is saving, and he keep silence about it, do you think he is doing right?

 

At the end of the day, all of the religions are praying to the same God. So you might think your path is the only right one and the others are the pits, but at the end of the line, they all lead to God. I think that is the point most Christians don't get, and insist that only they are right and try to force others to go their path instead of respecting the fact that to another person, they are the right path or else they go to hell. I don't think any belief system in God will lead one to a pit or to hell by default. That is an intollerant and hatefilled belief.

 

Also you can compare it to a car accident. There could be 5 witnesses, but each one gives a different account of how it happened. It doesn't mean that there were 5 different accidents, and it doesn't mean that each of the five should say they are the correct witness and the others are the pits or liars. At the end of the day it was one accident and the insurance company investigators will more or less determine the cause and take into consideration all the facts from the witnesses they gather.

[lonelybird]

Truth is not every path can get there. If you know the truth, and keep silent, this is a crime. Based on love, we tell the truth, what scare is this? Tolerant is spiritual fruit, which Lord teach us to do.

 

Holy Spirit testify Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit teach verses in Biblbe. Holy Spirit came from Father God, Father God tell us about Holy Spirit in Bible. All make sense. They testify each other.

[Topper]

I'm not so sure about Jesus never claiming to be the Son of God Topper. It's possible that that was Paul's contribution, but you have to keep in mind that the were Greeks all over Palestine and more so in Galilee than in Judah. Galilee also didn't have a long tradition of Judaism. Just one hundred years prior to Jesus' birth they had been forcibly converted. Before that they would have been culturally semitic, but not Jewish and their customs would have been those of the Hellenized Assyrians.

 

I'm not sying that Jesus absolutely made that claim, but to say that he didn't is based on pure specualtion. There is no way to know and that is the bottom line.

 

I'm not just speculating about this. Most of the claims of his being god do not appear untill many years after his death. For Paul to get converts he would have to show that Jesus was infact a better god to worship then the most powerful god of that time Mithra. Mithra like Jesus was the son of God. He was also of virgin birth.

Jesus, may have claimed to be the Messiah but that claim was also made by David and Cyrus.

[Topper]

Fun2bme, I can understand your reluctance to having science look into Religion. Yet I find the details that science reveals about who we are and how we got here to be very exciting. Most of the Archaeology that is being done, is done by Israel and Rabbinic scholars. I'm impressed that they do not dismiss evidence or try to hide evidence that refutes The Bible. They allow the evidence to speak for itself. We have text of an ancient society struggling to make some sense of the world around them. The stories themselves may not be fact, Yet the message behind the stories is very real. It is a good message and worthy of our attention. The document might be flawed but still worth while.

It is my believe that in the long run a more honest faith in a creator God will emerge. One that does not need false doctrines to get people to believe.