The marriage counsellor seems to be picking sides?

[Sheba]

Luvstarved

 

I certainly understand how you feel. In fact, I have even taken to writing a journal too. Sometimes I have written down precisely the cruel words my husband has said. I have done this partly because he denies it later, but also because I have felt the need to remind myself just how bad things can get, since our relationship is such a roller coaster.

 

It sounds to me as if you have at least the capability of discussing things with your husband, however unsatisfactory those conversations may be. We have been unable to do that, at all. Every conversation about an "issue" turns into a disaster. So, try to take heart in that, for what it is worth.

 

Our counsellor has told me, repeatedly, that men cannot mentally multi-task and so we should have very limited discussions on a single issue at a time. A single portion of a single issue, even. Perhaps this is what you need to do in order to make progress? Even as I read your post it seems to me as if you tried to cover "too much ground" in your conversation with your husband. It might help if you broke up the sex issue into separate discussions of oral sex, frequency, etc...

 

The Mother's Day stuff sounds like what seems to be a million disappointments I have had. I blame it on the perpetual boyhood of men. The rule of being a mother seems to be that no matter the day (Mother's day, your birthday, you are on death's door day) the mother must do everything. I feel as if you were "set up" luvstarved, given false hope that you probably should have recognized. I wonder if your husband gets so much satisfaction out of his good intentions that he doesn't feel the need to actually follow through?

 

You are also getting the big mindf*ck on the relationship, aren't you? He tells you he wants to be intimate and then implies he will settle for "cordial". Our counsellor identified this sort of contradiction in my husband. She said she felt he desperately wanted a very intimate relationship, but was at the same time terrified that he would be hurt by any commitment and the end result was the acting out. This actually made sense to my husband. He agreed.

 

If it helps, my husband has, for 4 whole days, maintained his acceptance of the theory that he has been wrong. He promised me, again yesterday, that he would be more understanding and would work with me on OUR issues. This is a big change from his old stance, which was that I had issues and he did nothing wrong. 3.5 months into counselling and I can see a bit of progress. It has taken patience though, and at the outset I felt such an urgent need for change I would not have agreed to anything that was going to take this long. I was practically tapping my toe in my hurry to have the counsellor tell my husband he was the insane one, not me.

 

I have had several individual counselling sessions with our marriage counsellor and I think that those have helped me be patient. At the least I was able to vent some of my hurt and frustration and impatience and worry. I also believe that those conversations have helped us make progress in our joint counselling. So, I urge you to go alone to see the counsellor, luvstarved. I think you need it as much as I have.

 

Wish me luck, and know I am wishing the same for you.

[luvstarved]

Hi Sheba,

 

Yes it sounds like we have much in common. So your husband also flatly denies having said things, etc? That makes me crazy and that is one of the things I intend to ask the counselor tomorrow - I mean, where do you go with "that never happened"?

 

Also sorry and a little surprised to hear that your attempts to discuss issues always turn out disastrous. I had the impression that it was just bursts of anger that were affecting you, and not as much this larger communication issue. Most of the time that is how it works for us, too, though sometimes if we persist, we will eventually come to SOME understanding.

 

But even when we do, there is still this element of my H not really feeling the love the way I need for him to and in a way that bothers me more than anything else. He is so defensive and self-protective, he will say he is happy but if I say "well I am not happy enough" then he is suddenly less happy than me. Why the hell can't people just talk honestly and openly?

 

I do try to focus on one topic but the way he evades and blames and changes the subject, it is very difficult to do that.

 

I am very glad to hear that your H is taking ownership of his issues. I hope that it continues. 3.5 months is not a long time after 10 years...but I know what you mean. I am SOOOOOOOO worked up about it all now too that whenever I am not entirely consumed by work or something else, I come right back to thinking about this. I want a resolution already. I've had enough!!

 

We were actually in counseling before, several times, but H always bailed as soon as the light shone on him. Never any progress either and I had always been advised to live with it or leave, that he would not change. Last time, he did finally admit that our marriage issues were not the teenagers' fault, and however silly and obvious that sounds, it felt like a major breakthrough. A couple weeks later, though, when focus went to him, the counselor suddenly appeared biased and unprofessional to him. This time, rather than let it go, I immediately sought out another counselor. He seems to respect this guy a lot so I hope that won't happen again.

 

This one also not coincidentally is a certified sex therapist so I am hoping tomorrow to broach the sex topic. H just seems to believe that when the honeymoon is over, you just move on past that part of your life and take care of yourself or something. He doesn't seem to think that we can "get it back". We'll see.

 

A couple of bits of information that might provide you with some interesting food for thought. I do not want to seem as though I am making assumptions about your situation, so don't interpret that I am trying to assert that this applies, but this link talks about narcissism, which I do believe applies to my H: http://www.narcissisticabuse.com/characteristics.html

 

I figure either it will ring true and give you additional insight and feel less alone, or make you realize it could be worse!

 

Also a book my H and I both read and thought was good that was recommended by our counselor: The New Rules of Marriage by Terrence Real. Basic premise is that 21st century requires new model for marriage but people are stuck in old ideas (new marriage ideas: women are not crazy and men need to "grow up and show up" but need to be told how...)

 

Well it is very good for me at least to have someone to share this stuff with. I do not like to talk to family or friends (even though H runs to Mommy for validation constantly, and unfortunately gets it) because then if we work things out there will still be awkwardness and attitude from external sources and who needs that crap???

 

Also, yes I am thinking of my own counselor, don't know if it would be the one we are both seeing or someone new but definitely need some vent time and coaching too...

 

Keep me posted on your sitch and I will do the same. When is your next appointment?

[Sheba]

Luvstarved

 

I am on the fence about whether or not my husband is a narcissist. He has some tendencies, that is for sure. But, he lacks a lot of the the characteristics. I don't think he is generally a liar, for example - just when it comes to things he has said in anger. Even then, I am not sure it is lying so much as a sign of the complete loss of control he suffers (I suffer!) when he is angry. He does set moral standards for himself and tries to live by them. He is generous to a fault, devoted to his children, takes care of his elderly father, gives to the community. Etc... and so on.

 

However, when it comes to me, it is a different matter. He is much harder on me than on any other person in his life. I have often wondered why he stays with a person for whom he has such little regard and who has, he has said, "ruined his life". Even typing that phrase I think what a cruel lie it is, as I have been repeatedly told by everyone else who knows us what great support I have given him and how lucky he is to have me. I reject the thought that I have "ruined" anything for him.

 

Sigh.

 

I too am reluctant to discuss our issues with anyone. I feel that family and friends will be alienated from him by that, and I am preserving his relationships with them for our future. Or, in some cases, for his life without me. His sister-in-law is my friend and she would dearly love to know what troubles are between us, but I don't dare tell her. I have told her outright that if he and I split up he would need her, and that if anyone should be talking to her it should be him.

 

So, this forum is a good and anonymous place to find hopefully understanding people who are willing to spend a little time giving advice to those others who need help understanding themselves or their partners/spouses/friends.

 

Your husband is a conundrum to me, with his theory that married people don't care about sex. I certainly do. My husband and I have had our battles on this point, however I have learned that things work out better if I just bide my time and wait for him. We never have sex as often as I would like, but when we do it is good. And, I certainly would be unable to go without for months at a time. The sense of rejection would be deadly. The frustration is minor in comparison.

 

So, I understand perfectly why you would focus on the sex problem. It is what is supposed to distinguish a marital relationship from other close relationships. It is symbolic of the intimacy that you hope exists on other levels. It feels good, and so many other parts of life feel bad or are fattening. I know that the "glow" of closeness after sex tends to last at least a day but often a few, and we really need those good days!

 

And, after all, if you are a healthy woman of 48 you are perfectly human to expect a sex life.

 

I have read that continual masturbation can become such a habit that nothing else will stimulate the masturbator. They are so used to doing it for themselves that either nothing else feels quite right or perhaps they are afraid it won't, adding a load of performance anxiety. If that is right, I guess the cure would be to STOP, right? I will be very interested in what your sex therapist counsellor says about this problem. You will need to be very careful to use your "first person" rendition of this problem when you raise it with the counsellor!

 

Our next ordeal, I mean, counselling session is Wednesday morning. I have gone to the last few without an agenda of my own, and will try to stick with that this time.

 

I did not mention here one of the theories raised at our last session, which may make some readers roll their eyes. The therapist suggested that birth trauma may play a part in my husband's behaviour. He was delivered by forceps. Now, I understand that this is very hard on the mother and may alienate her from her child and as a result of that coldness all the rest follows. However the counsellor suggests that it is the actual pain and fright of the delivery itself that causes a problem in the individual. I have trouble with this notion, but it seems to have some meaning for my husband. Perhaps because then he AND his parents are faultless? He can blame all his relationship troubles on a metal implement? I don't know, but am not looking a gift forceps in the mouth, so will not argue otherwise.

[Mr. Lucky]

I did not mention here one of the theories raised at our last session, which may make some readers roll their eyes. The therapist suggested that birth trauma may play a part in my husband's behaviour. He was delivered by forceps. Now, I understand that this is very hard on the mother and may alienate her from her child and as a result of that coldness all the rest follows. However the counsellor suggests that it is the actual pain and fright of the delivery itself that causes a problem in the individual. I have trouble with this notion, but it seems to have some meaning for my husband. Perhaps because then he AND his parents are faultless? He can blame all his relationship troubles on a metal implement? I don't know, but am not looking a gift forceps in the mouth, so will not argue otherwise.

Sheba, not the first time I've heard that theory. The problem I have with it is this - it implies that every bit of nurture the Mother provides from that point on could be the best possible and yet the alienation at birth makes it all useless. Doesn't make sense to me.

 

The real danger is that birth trauma is a red herring in any discussion of the problems in your marriage and takes away from the need to confront the real issues. Your thoughts here communicate an incredible amount of hard work and soul searching - hopefully your H is willing to put forth a similar effort

 

Mr. Lucky

[Trialbyfire]

All I can say Sheba is that no one can fault you for the amount of work and effort that you're putting into your marriage and your husband. It's quite something to see.

[Sheba]

Thank you for the encouraging words, TBF. Stay tuned. Tomorrow is another session.

 

Mr. Lucky, I agree with you. However, I have read that some mothers are so injured during a forceps birth that they become alienated from the child. My husband has characterized his mother as very cold and unloving - no kisses, no hugs, no loving words, no praise - perhaps this is a result of the birth trauma SHE suffered. That makes more sense to me.

 

Or, maybe she was just a cold woman.

 

In any case I think the point my husband has taken is that, as a result of this alleged birth trauma, HE might have a problem (as opposed to just me) that affects our interactions and HE might have to do something to overcome that. There is some hope in that!

[luvstarved]

Sheba, I really don't buy the forceps thing at all, but I am no psychologist so what do I know? Only that from having given birth three times...it's all traumatic. When I think of it, for the baby - going from a warm, fluid, dark cuddly cozy environment where all your needs are met and you have the comfort of Mom's voice and heartbeat - then all of a sudden it's bright, you're wet and cold, your limbs are splaying everywhere out of control and all these people are manhandling you and being noisy and just total sensory overload going on, and you have no idea what is happening. That's all fine, but introduce a pair of tongs, and you're screwed for life. Doesn't fit for me.

 

On the other hand, whatever can help him to see the light just might be worth supporting, crackpot theories welcome where helpful!! It sounds cop-outtish but you know what? It's better for him to claim that tongs ruined his life than you ruined his life.

 

If his Mom was so distant and cold, then I don't see where it really matters why so much. In the end, his relationship with you could be in some way a means to get back at her...taking his revenge out on you, etc.

 

Another interesting theory in the New Rules of Marriage book is that essentially we are very prone to marrying one of our parents. That is, we marry someone like one of our parents in an effort to "correct" the original relationship. It is hard to explain and I thought it was silly when I started to read about it but by the time I'd read through the whole thought process it actually made some sense to me. It is a very good book...my H and I were talknig tonight and pondering which of our own parents we tried to marry! It makes more sense than I am making it out to be here, really. I have not bought it lock stock and barrel, but do think it is compelling food for thought that may have some merit...

 

Best of luck with your session tomorrow. I will be anxious to hear how it goes. We had ours today and I thought it went well. Typically, H got the floor first and hijacked my sex topic, but I sat there and patiently listened and all that. I eventually got my side out (H never mentioned our sexless years, acted like when we talked about it this weekend and I said that one of the reasons I got distant was sexual frustration that that was "news to" him. Puhleez.) But the dr. did not focus on the details of that to bother with who was "right", more on how we interacted over it. The upshot of his analysis was that we were both craving intimacy and being too defensive/afraid to get it. His homework for us was simply to think about how we can individually work on letting ourselves be more vulnerable. Sounds simplistic yet kind of appropriate. And this time we did not make his hair hurt and he told us "good work" at the end. Nice!

 

There must be something to it, though. For the first time tonight, H said that he knew he had said horrible things to me and the kids over the years and that he was sorry for it. And I told him it made me very glad to hear him say that and that I also had said things I regretted. First sweet moment we've had since I can remember.

 

Not surprisingly, Dr also said that the sex part will probably work itself out once we are able to gain the emotional connection that we now lack. I can stand for that. Not that I don't want to get whatever I can in the meantime...

 

Well I will be looking forward to hearing how things go for you tomorrow, do either you or H have a topic or agenda you hope to pursue, or just let the counselor determine the next logical step??? Either way, best of luck!

[Sheba]

Nothing earth shattering to report from this week's session.

 

The counsellor spoke of addictive personalities (my husband is a "recovered" alcoholic) and spoke more on fear of commitment issues. He has them, I don't. No surprise there!

 

We took a side trip to a lingering issue, and some cruel words my husband once said. He never ceases to amaze me in his inability to apologize or say he wished he would not have said some thing or other. In fact, we continued the discussion by email, and here is his version of "I am sorry and I wish I had not said that":

 

"It seems as if you repeat what was said and will never let go even though my past comments may have been poorly stated, or carelessly said in anger and not intended in the way you heard them. They have always said more about my frustration than about the state of the relationships between our "real" as opposed to "false" selves. Blah blah blah. Please accept that I mean it that you are the love of my life - the one true love of my life - no blarney. Get over it. "

 

So, not bad, of course. I appreciate what he has managed to say. But still I see him evading responsibility for his part in the whole mess. And of course there is some irony in the "never let go", as he has raised things in therapy that happened 9 years ago......

[dropdeadlegs]

Some folks never learn the skill of saying "I'm sorry" while growing up.

 

I used to have that problem. I would get all worked up, do a lot of yelling and cursing, get out of my system whatever my current frustration was, basically throw a fit. Usually a one-sided fit. I often said things that stung badly, even at times saying them for the explicit purpose of that sting, not necessarily meaning the statement, but surely meaning to hurt. Then I would get over it and 20 minutes later it would be as if nothing had happened. No grudge or silence. I felt BETTER, but those in my presence were still reeling from my barbed words. For years I felt justified in one sense, but sorry and ashamed in another sense. But I never said "I'm sorry" I just went on acting more "normally."

 

I had an anger management problem because I let things build and build until my inner damn burst and spewed the poisonous feelings I had harbored for days, weeks, even months. I did not attend classes, nor seek therapy or even read books. It was the simple act of becoming aware of something that had been so natural for so long. Of course I had to actually "hear" that I had a problem and that it was having a terrible affect on my kids.

 

The person who told me was their father, my ex, and that was a brutal discussion and nasty exchange of words, but he let me have my fit then calmly said, "that's exactly what you do. You just gave the perfect example of what I was trying to point out."

 

I went on with life, but his words were in my head now and I couldn't just ignore them. When my rages were building and I suddenly unleashed my anger, I would hear that conversation. Slowly, I was able to stop myself, mid-rage, and think "you don't want to do this, it only makes you feel bad about yourself. Think about how bad it makes <insert victim's name> feel. I would immediately apologize and try to continue more calmly. At times I had to remove myself for 10-20 minutes to do that.

 

It took time, but I began to ask myself what and whom I was really anger about/with, and usually it had little to do with the situation at hand. Self recognition and acceptance of MY problem was the key, and within months I was acting and reacting much more appropriately.

 

I still relapse at times, but I am much quicker to immediately shut down the rage and collect myself. I rarely have to remove myself from the conversation and always immediately apologize if I say something hurtful. I'm not perfect, but everyone can see that I am so much better. I really try not to explode and find it isn't hard to control unless I have been drinking. We all know alcohol lowers inhibitions, but I also know that it is no excuse.

 

I hope one day, and soon, your husband can begin the process of learning that apologies are necessary, that ownership of bad behavior is the first step towards changing it, and acknowledging that an apology is only as good as the honest attempts to not repeat the transgression again. It doesn't happen overnight, but I believe that in six months I showed marked improvement. I am willing to bet that his anger has very little to do with you, you are just the easiest target. You love him, he knows that, and crazily that is who an angry person lashes out against most. The person/people we know will forgive us.

 

On a second note, you mentioned that your H is a recovering alcoholic. I'm not an expert on the subject, but do have some knowledge. There are three kinds of "drunks." Those who actively drink; those who are "dry", not drinking, but still harboring the same mentality as when they drank; and those who are truly "recovering" and taking active steps to determine why they drank in order to not repeat the same patterns again. Is your H dry or truly recovering? I think it's pretty rare to recover without outside help.

 

I ask because he sounds more dry than recovering simply because there is a step in every ten-step program where you sincerely atone for the pain caused when you were drinking to each person your drinking affected. I think it is supposed to signify a sincere apology and the beginning of a clean slate, even if that person is no longer a part of your life. It's about taking ownership of bad behavior. Just something to consider and think about since one can go many years without drinking but not really be recovering at all.

 

Best wishes for a wonderful week. If there was nothing "earth shattering" in yesterdays session, I take solace in that he attended once again. So much to be said for that alone.

[Trialbyfire]

Is it a matter of stopping the rages before letting loose or not allowing the build-up to happen? While no one wants to constantly be nattering at their partner (don't sweat the small stuff attitude), would it make sense to express some of the more sensitive issues beforehand so there's no build up? Easily said, the question might be, what are the key issues I suppose....

[Sheba]

As always, DDL, you make excellent points. I don't know how old you are, but you seem to have lived and learned a lot. Your honesty and willingness to be so self-revealing is a gift to me, and I imagine it is a trait that is loved by all who know you.

 

My husband seems to have a bit of your insight into how over the top his anger is. He has admitted to "over-reacting".

 

Unfortunately for him, even while he is learning this, he is suffering other consequences for his past bouts of fury - I have noticed that ALL of us (me and all the kids) don't give his anger much credence. He might have a perfect right to be offended or annoyed, but the rest of us can easily brush off our own bad actions on the basis that it is just HIM being angry again like he always is. I am sure we would all be more likely to apologize or even hold ourselves in check if it were not for the fact his anger has put him in the role of household scapegoat.

 

We need to work on this, but it seems to me that step one is getting him to take responsibility for his errors of the past, apologize, and express his intention to change. To me "sorry" is a magic word, that pften saves me from "real" consequences for my mistakes. To him, apparently, saying "sorry" is an ordeal. I have a very hard time understanding.

 

I don't know how to end the cycle.

 

DDL - he may indeed be a dry alcoholic. He did go to AA for a number of years, and went through all 12 steps and, though he no longer goes, he continues to have a lot of respect for the program. I recall him telling me about the requirement that one apologize and atone. I wonder if it would help if I were to remind him of how those principals helped him in the past and might help him again? I don't know if he is quite ready to take step one and admit that his anger is similar to a drinking problem.

 

TBF - you ask a good question. How does a person with an anger problem learn to deal with it appropriately so that they head themself off at the pass or recognize for themselves when their anger is beyond what fits the circumstances?

 

The counsellor speaks of "rightful" anger as being experienced for 15 minutes. I am not sure this makes sense to me. We can all easily imagine an anger that may be just that lasts a lot longer (just go to that Infidelity forum!). Does the 15 minutes include the expression and discussion? I would like my husband, and me, to have some sort of standard to compare our anger to in order to assess whether it is just or we are over-reacting or acting out of fear or stress.

[dropdeadlegs]

Sheba, I'm 42. Sometimes I feel like an old soul and sometimes I feel like a young "grasshopper." I've kissed many frogs and often been an ass, but many lessons have been learned, with many more yet to come.

 

Over-reactive anger is a bad habit, and I learned from one of the champs (my father, who has never open accepted how over-the-top he gets.) As with many of our many character flaws, it is something done for so long, we barely recognize it. I agree that he first needs to "own" it and I completely understand that it is seen by the family as him just acting out. If only he could see that it doesn't "pack the same punch" when overused! Once he sincerely accepts that the anger was taken to extremes, it's amazing how forgiving people can be.

 

Remember that line from Love Story? "Love means never having to say you're sorry." What a crock! Love means saying it over and over again, until you actually do nothing to BE sorry for!

 

As far as TBF's question, I think a combination of both is what's required. You have to internally calm down when feelings are "simmering" AND not allow that to become an all out "boil." It takes a LOT of practice and self control, but I know it can be done.

 

Before I said ten-step program and I feel like an igmo (short for ignorant moron) for that. Maybe a gentle reminder in a non-threatening way like you addressed, of how helpful the program was with drinking and that it could also be used for anger management would be appropriate. Most truly recovering alcoholics that I know have never totally given up meetings, but they go much less frequently. Some as few as 3 times a year, some monthly as a refresher course of where they came from and to support the newbies. Kind of show them that years and decades are possible.

 

You're all on the right track and time and willingness make all the difference in the world!

[Sheba]

This may not be the ideal moment for me to "report" on our counselling session as I just had to deal with my husband's rather inept handling of a dispute between my children. I am a little cranky with him at the moment.

 

Today I was surprised to learn that my husband is still unable to identify for himself things which might upset me.

 

For example, we spent this past weekend with another couple, my friend and her husband. My husband seems to not see the difference between him talking to my friend, compared to an incident when he was having an exclusive tete a tete with some woman I don't know, in a group setting, while I was alone and at loose ends. So, by his reckoning, I am "improving" because I was not disturbed that he was talking to my friend. By my reckoning, the scenarios are completely different and I never would have been annoyed that he was talking to my friend and I can't imagine why he would think I would be upset by such a thing.

 

Sighing again. Even with the help of the therapist, who tried to explain my side, I don't think he got the point.

 

I do feel that my husband continues to transform my complaints into criticisms, so that he be justifiably angry. That way he does not have to deal with the fact that he may have made a mistake or that he might just have to adjust his behaviour a bit because that is what people do to avoid hurting the ones they love.

 

Since my husband is a very smart man, and I am very honest and direct and specific, I don't know why we continue to miscommunicate so often.

 

We still have not got to the point that we are dealing specifically with the anger issue, although I notice that the counsellor slides it in fairly often sort of indirectly. Perhaps she is still "softening him up" in the hopes of avoiding another rage moment in her office? I have noticed, however, that my husband seems to try to deal with his rage more appropriately. He seems to have lost some confidence in his good friend Anger. The most obvious manifestation is that he gets over his anger more quickly. This is a very good thing, as in the past I have had to deal with the rage itself and then, for days afterwards, an "on the verge of rage" phenomena, with the added bonus of extreme coldness.

 

Still leery, though........

[dropdeadlegs]

I have noticed, however, that my husband seems to try to deal with his rage more appropriately. He seems to have lost some confidence in his good friend Anger. The most obvious manifestation is that he gets over his anger more quickly. This is a very good thing, as in the past I have had to deal with the rage itself and then, for days afterwards, an "on the verge of rage" phenomena, with the added bonus of extreme coldness.

 

Still leery, though........

I see that as a very positive start towards a change in behavior. A very good thing, indeed!

 

I know the speed of change and recovery can feel so sloooow at times. It takes so much time with weekly sessions of almost an hour to really cover even one event.

 

You're also bound to make some progress in leaps and bounds, kind of in the way kids suddenly grow. Any growth can be sudden or seem to take forever. It's hard to be patient, for me, but patience is certainly a virtue.

[Sheba]

Still here, still posting on this thread!

 

Our counselling session this week was again characterized by our miscommunication. My husband continues to have trouble understanding that I HONESTLY report to him my feelings. He is always looking for a hidden meaning in my conduct, and interpreting it as something other than what I am specifically telling him it means.

 

The counsellor characterized us as typical. She said that women who are angry tend to say what they are angry about and to hold onto that anger until it is resolved. Men, she claims, often deny that they are angry and yet "punish" their spouse by acting out in other ways - for example, ignoring their wife in public. This makes sense in our relationship, though I am not sure about the generalization. In fact, I want to reject the generalization because it sounds to me as if "getting along" is hopeless if I have to guess from bad treatment that he is mad about some other, unrelated thing.

 

Still, I see progress. For years, my husband would get angry with me (justifiably or not) and then fuel and feed his own anger with brooding so that it lasted days. He still gets angry, but he seems to be able to control himself better. He hasn't used explosive language. He seems to be working on letting go of his anger rather than holding onto it. I told the counsellor so and my husband agreed that it is so.

 

We also talked more about certain types of incidents that have been repeated throughout our relationship. In particular, we have had a hard time socializing in groups. This dates back to our first social outing, when we went to a party where both of us felt rather shy and uncomfortable. My husband ended up in a corner talking to a woman we both know. I was at loose ends, didn't feel comfortable intruding on their conversation and tried to get involved by helping the hostess, but felt awkward. Then, some man pinched my a**. Suddenly, I felt very angry because I believed that this would not had occured if I were with my "date". I went looking for him, he was still locked in his conversation and sort of chilled me out when I approached them - glanced at me and carried on talking without any acknowledgment of me or effort to include me. We had our first fight later that night.

 

All these years later, we have yet to get over this event. Variations of the same theme have occured , in some cases, by design by my husband. Of course, I was called a bunch of names over this issue and made to feel as if my expectations were worse than ridiculous. I felt vindicated by the counsellor telling my husband that spouses need to have some level of attention to each other at all times during such events - she suggested that each should periodically check to make sure the other is still having fun and comfortable. He expressed some surprise at this suggestion but agreed that he would do so. She addressed specifically what should happen if I am wanting to talk to my husband and he is in a one on one conversation with another woman. I am to get the courage to approach him. He is to be sure to welcome and include me. He agreed enthusiastically.

 

I wonder about our relationship when we have been unable to deal with a simple thing like "don't ignore me in public" by ourselves. I wonder whether my husband is sincere when he apparently accepts so readily the counsellor's view of how social occasions should be dealt with. I have been asking for this consideration for years and was belittled and called names and yelled at and even hit for it. Why is he so suddenly agreeable?

 

I am trying to accept that my husband's efforts to control his anger might last and that he is sincere in his commitment to change. It seems impossible that this could be the happy reality after all these years. It is hard for me to even pretend to trust him, at this point, though I know I should try since he seems to be trying. This is the work I have to do.

 

Only more time will tell.

[hardcase]

What exactly are you in marriage counseling for? Was there cheating involved? or is it that you two are at each others throats pretty much equally?

[Sheba]

Hardcase, there was no cheating involved. My husband has had a very flirtatious relationship with a woman we both know, but I am certain that it never progressed beyond banter. We all work together, and she is actually a nice woman.

 

My husband has a huge anger problem. He has been very cruel to me. I have put up with it for years. In a way, I gave him permission to treat me badly, whether because I annoyed him or because he was having a tough time for any reason.

 

For example, when I told my husband the way he was interacting with the woman he was flirting with made me uncomfortable, he told me that I was so insecure he was on the verge of leaving me, that I had a huge problem and needed mental help, that he was not going to change a thing about the way he acted, I was stupid, crazy and no one would ever put up with me, that I should "shut the f**k up, etc.... It did not matter that I had raised the issue with him nicely and without accusation, his angry response was explosive. This pattern was repeated over many, many issues and events, for years.

 

Finally my son - now 16 and very large - stepped in and told his stepfather, my husband, to stop calling me names. I could see that next my son would take a swing at my husband and I was devastated. This was the catalyst. I realized how bad things were. I finally did what I had resisted for years and made "the threat" - the threat to end the relationship if things did not change.

 

We have been in counselling since the beginning of February.

[Sheba]

I want to add, least anyone think that our only issue is "other women", that I have been told those same things (crazy, stupid, etc...) about many other issues. I made a mess with loose sparkles from Christmas decorations and he had a huge explosion and I was called "stupid" repeatedly. I ordered the "wrong" Chinese food and that lead to a threat that he would leave. I didn't discipline my kids in the way he thought I should and I was berated. I wore the "wrong" shoes to the golf course and he was livid. And so on - there are a hundred little stories....

[Sheba]

Another meeting with the counsellor today. We went a little off track and I think it took my husband by surprise. He had become used to talking about certain issues, but today I raised two new ones.

 

First of all, I wanted to discuss the fact that every six months or so he accuses me of not pulling my weight financially. I HATE that. He wants to split the household bills in half and I agree, but I don't even know what half is. I have given him my bank statements in the past and tried to get him to tell me what he spends so we can create a starting budget for contributions, but no luck.

 

I think he was angry that I raised this issue and he tried to shame me with stories of my financial mismanagements in front of the counsellor. I think he is embarrassed that he wants me to pay half. I am willing to pay half, I just don't want any comments from him about how I choose to spend the rest of my money.

 

The other issue I raised also made him angry. He had a call from his ex-wife this morning, and she informed him that his youngest did not want to live with us half time anymore and that his son is old enough to decide. I know that this will lead to great heartache for my husband, but I also know that historically he has taken out his frustration about these matters against me in rages over minor things.

 

It is hard for me to support him when I have that fear of being the target of his repressed rage towards his ex. He fears being angry at her, since she has the power to keep his son from him.

 

When asked by the counsellor how this could be handled, my husband flatly and angrily denied that he has taken any such thing out on me. I suggested that if he were aware of this tendency he could monitor himself, but that seems a little hard if he won't even consider that displacing his anger is a possibility.

 

Despite the angry feelings, after the meeting my husband tried to draw a line between "the past" and now - basically saying that I should not worry about him behaving as he used to while under stress. He seems to feel as if he has turned a corner, or perhaps he wants to. However, I have my own corner to turn - the corner that will lead to faith and trust in him. I am not there yet.

[dropdeadlegs]

Hi Sheba,

 

I wasn't home last week, explaining my lack of response until today.

 

Of course you haven't turned the corner yet. I see from your posts that you are trying, but I think I would still be waiting for the old H to return at any moment. I can almost guarantee that his old persona will return at some point, but I hope that it won't linger or be as bad as before, more like a bad moment (and an apology and calm discussion would be appropriate) than a bad day or a bad week. Years of expectation cannot be overcome in a few months.

 

Children and "mixed" families are always hard. I have been there when a child left my home in favor for his father's, and I have been there when another child returned to me after seeing that while the problems were different, there were advantages and disadvantages living with either parent. My BF has recently been going through his daughter wanting to live with him one minute, then stay with her mother the next. I don't think he feels all that strongly about either option, he just wants her to make a choice and stick with it all day. Yes, it involves personal feelings, but it shouldn't be taken out on you. That is what anger management is about, taking out the anger appropriately, and with the appropriate person.

 

I'm glad you brought it up in your session. I understand your fear of it playing out based on history. I hope that talking about it in therapy will prevent that from happening by creating awareness. At least your view of the past has been documented.

 

I'm sure it will take many more months to become truly "hopeful" and I heartily applaud your continued vigilance in solving these issues. You always have my highest hopes and best wishes.

[Sheba]

Thanks for your continued interest, DDL.

 

Late last night my husband and I spoke again about what is going on with his son. He told me that I didn't need to worry that he was going to take it out on me. I am glad that my worry has penetrated his consciousness and that he is being reassuring. He spoke to me kindly when he said this, which is a big switch as he has always resented reassuring me in the past.

 

You are right, I am still tensed up and waiting for my "old old man" to come back. Despite that, I am monitoring my own behaviour and trying to avoid sarcasm, digs, petty bitching, etc... I am remembering to thank him graciously and compliment him. I think of it as trying to treat him the way I treat my friends. I am trying to make my effort match his.

[Sheba]

I went into our counselling session this morning with the ugliness of the week sitting like a rock in my stomach.

 

We had a huge battle last week over the fact he looked at me askance. I was having a bad day, and brooded over his dirty look. Somehow, who knows how, this lead to a long angry evening and to him driving madly down the highway thinking of killing himself.

 

He didn't. He came home. The next morning, we started up again. In fact, we had that disagreement which lead to my post about whether or not there is a difference in saying "I don't want to get divorced" vs "I want to stay married to you".

 

When we tried to discuss our week with the counsellor, my husband was almost instantly into angry. He was swearing, something which he has avoided recently in counselling sessions. He reverted to old complaints and accusations that I had said things which I have never said. I expressed my frustration with the therapy, with the constant discussions of our childhoods, with the failure to get any issues resolved, and with the marriage generally.

 

It was ugly. I think the counsellor has almost had it with us. She gave him something to photocopy and then came in and told me she "heard me" but that I needed to hang in a little longer, that he was almost ready to disclose - meaning almost ready to disclose whatever bad thing was done to him to cause him to treat me like this.

 

Now I am half mad. I feel as if I have spent YEARS and most of my inner resources trying to contend with this difficult, complicated man. To help him. Support him. All the while, being treated progressively worse. A year ago I was so beaten down that I felt I deserved the emotional and verbal abuse he has heaped on me. I started to tell myself daily "you are not that bad" in an effort to keep my head up. It was my pathetic mantra. Then, my son gave my maternal instinct a poke and I realized that what I was accepting was hurting my kids. Things were shaken up. Counselling started. So now, it comes to this - I am to be responsible for curing him?

 

I just don't know if I have anything left in me, other than anger and hurt.

[luvstarved]

Sheba, I am sorry to hear that you have had such an awful week...and at the same time have been posting supportive messages to me...you are very kind and caring and don't forget that.

 

I certainly hear you too...but I am a little confused about the counselor and this disclosure stuff. Did you get any indication from her as to what made her think he was on the verge of some such disclosure? What do your instincts tell you?

 

Him thinking of killing himself is severe, has that ever happened before? Do you think that this is real or just a mind game he is playing to try to get you to "back down" again? If it is real, then that is a psychological emergency and should be treated as such. FWIW although I suppose you know this, if there is anything real in that, it is a blatant indication that a lot of what he inflicts on you comes from self-loathing. Has this angle been discussed in counseling?

 

In my counseling, we have not talked much about childhoods, a bit but mostly focusing on "communication technique", I suppose you'd call it. But I have been through that before and it does get frustrating because it's like yeah yeah what about now? I am not sure I entirely believe that you can just persistently search for some nugget of blame in the past...maybe it will come out and maybe it won't...in fact. maybe it is there and maybe it is not. I hope that the counselor is not putting eggs into one basket that might not hold up in the end.

 

In my H's case I pretty much blame his mother and I hate to admit it, but although I have tried to embrace his family situation, I am starting to REALLY dislike her and not stand being around her. So I do think his are childhood issues, but the whole way he was treated, and I don't think there was some pivotal incident or subtle thing going on. I am just wondering what your counselor is actually looking for, some abuse he has blocked from memory, some defining moment, what? Do you have any theories of your own in this regard? What relationship do you have with his family?? I know you have probably covered this ground ad nauseum in counseling but I am curious, if you could just mention anything that you think is actually pertinent...was he spoiled, etc as far as you know?

 

I am so sympathetic with you on the resentment of all the effort and accomodation put forth for someone who not only doesn't appreciate it, but actually...expects it and deems it yet not enough and somehow acts like you don't even really deserve the honor of serving!!! AAAIIGGGGHHH!!!!!

 

It sounded like you had some kind of breakthrough with him a few weeks ago and he seemed to have acknowledged some behavior and responsibility. Has all that just gone right out the window???

 

I feel funny saying this because it is the pot calling the kettle black I suppose, but...I do believe that it is important to try to control your own anger. Is it justified? Certainly. Is it helpful? No. Is it hurting you or him more? You.

 

I struggle with this every damn day. The frustration is that if I hide my anger, then my H merrily marches on with the stuff that makes me angry and nothing gets resolved and I just stew instead of spew. If I try to express my feelings in a calm rational manner, then HE gets angry and my anger comes out. If I start off with anger, then he, with some justification, makes the issue about MY anger, which isn't really true, but maybe a little, if indeed I am coming out of the box with it.

 

The thing is, and I think you might agree...there is a difference between controlling feelings and suppressing feelings and addressing feelings within relationships. My reality is that I can suppress feelings all on my own for a while but they are really just storing up and waiting for an eruption so that is no good. Addressing feelings in a relationship I think is impossible for one person to do and impossible to do where mutual respect, willingness to listen, empathy and all of that are not there. It is what I think we both want to happen, but without cooperation and honesty,etc, it ain't gonna.

 

Controlling feelings? I have not managed that one yet. I think of that as the ability to let go of my anger all on my own - genuinely, regardless of what my H says or does. We sort of had this discussion before. This is what we hear from counselors and it isn't that I don't "buy it", I am not sure whether I do or not, but I at least think it is very very difficult and don't seem to have a toolbox to work with. BUT I do think that this is how I need to direct my efforts, at least in the short term and perhaps that applies to you as well...I am not sure how to approach it as I write this, but I do know that I cannot will my H to change, although I pray he will, so I cannot expect that the behaviors making me so angry and resentful are going to go away, at least not entirely and overnight, so it seems the only real option I have is to work on my reaction to them...and not ever kid myself that suppressing is the same as controlling.

 

Again I am really sorry that you are so discouraged right now and I hope that the counselor is really onto something that will break things open in a positive way for you soon...

[Sheba]

Luvstarved

 

Of course you are right, I need to control my anger - which I did not do today and did not do last week. But, it is hard. I am by nature a person who defends others and am known for my dogged loyalty. But that loyalty has turned me into a dog in this relationship and my defensiveness is finally in support of myself.

 

My husband has been through a lot of bad things - a long list. And through all of it, I was beside him, literally doing things for him when he was too demoralized to do them himself. Researching, consoling, hand holding. And he was throughout becoming more and more cruel to me. I would cry and sort of shake it off and get up to deal with his neediness the next day.

 

I feel now that I have done enough taking care of him. Too much. The counsellor really does not know what she asks of me to ask me to do this for longer.

 

The breakthrough disclosure she is looking for is an admission of child abuse. She believes he was abused by his mother. He does not admit to that. He says he does not recall any abuse. He admits to his mother being very, very cold. He admits that his father was terribly critical. And, he has told one little story about the "only time dad ever hit" was when he got big enough and would not let his mother hit him. Now, I don't know if he means spanking, or a serious assault. I am not prying, but have left this for the counsellor.

 

His mother is dead. She died a few years ago, an angry woman to the end. I was the one who sat with her as she died, while everyone else hovered outside her room. I couldn't bear to think of a person dying alone, so even though I really did not know her well, I stayed with her.

 

The father is alive, but a lascivious and unappealing old man. I can't stand to be around him and have slowly withdrawn. This is noticed and hurtful to my husband and his father, but what can I say? The old man tried to sexually assault an equally elderly woman and that is a big obstacle that I cannot get past.

 

His siblings and I get along wonderfully. Better than that, even.

 

As for killing himself, he speaks of this periodically. I do believe he thinks of it, but so far I do not feel he has been in an actual crisis at the time. It is hard to explain, but he says it sometimes in anger and I feel it is just being used as the ultimate cruelty - you know, that I make his life so horrible that he would rather be dead. Other times, he seems to be angry at other things, himself maybe, but not despairing. Certainly not apologizing or saying he is worthless or anything you might imagine a person in such powerful distress might do.

 

Generally, I think he is mad at life and that is what makes him refer to suicide.

 

I am not an expert, of course. So I could be very very wrong in not seeing this as a serious threat. I did tell the counsellor about it. She did not have much of a reaction.

 

In any case, what you describe is exactly the way I feel. I can supress my anger, but it does not go away. There are all of these events over the years roiling within me like poison and the only antidote would be an admission from him that he has done me wrong, an apology and a promise to try to do better. I believe, sincerely, that I could let things go at that point. And that I could then try to build some trust - that would be a sound footing, don't you think?

 

His wrongs are SO objectively wrong - yes, he has hit me, a couple of times. And threatened to hit me other times. Calling me names, screaming and swearing at me. It is not as if these were things which might be affronts only to me. They are universal affronts. So, you have to wonder - why does he go to counselling, and yet not do the obvious to make amends?

 

He is a mystery to me. I like my mysteries printed on pages and with a neat and clever ending.

 

Thank you for the opportunity to rant, luvstarved. Just think, you may have saved him a rant!

[luvstarved]

Sheba, How are things going? Not very well at last check-in, I was sorry to hear. Hope you have had some quiet time if nothing else since then.

 

You know, I really don't know how much it matters whether the counselor gets to this disclosure she's looking for. His mother was clearly cold and abusive and his Dad doesn't sound like such great shakes either. Is she thinking that your H has to have this whole huge clarity about what was done to HIM before he can realize that what he is doing to you is WRONG? Does he have to be reminded of being in the victim role first??? Argh! This might be totally irrelevant to your situation, but I have been to various counselors and some of them have their own little agenda and goals - like she is pursuing the challenge of uncovering this abuse almost for the sake of the challenge. Just erase that if it makes no sense. Just food for thought.

 

But it does bug me that the clear abuser has to be gingerly brought into reality and treated with kid gloves. On the other hand, they're the ones that are so defensive and out of touch, so what can you expect? It is VERY frustrating, yet I can see that it is possibly the only way to proceed if you have any hope of fixing things in the end. Our counselor talks about "subjective reality" and stuff a lot, but has conceded on the "universal affronts" aspect...misunderstanding and miscommunication and human fears and insecurities can be addressed with learning communication skills, etc but abuse is a different ball game. I am not sure that there is a solution, if you read around, it sounds pretty desolate...not a high percentage of success stories when abuse is involved. So I really hate to second guess the professionals, but like you, I resent being put into the position of being the hardworker/caretaker/uberpatient one for someone else's obvious wrongdoing.

 

I had a semi-major discussion with my H yesterday. Started off with me saying that I was discouraged because the counselor totally NAILED our dynamic and he (H) just flatly discounted everything that spoke to his issues, so I felt I had nothing to work with. So he started in with the crap about me being difficult, us being incompatible, blah blah and I just said, you're right, you're right, let's end this. Like the good little narcissist (and I missed it somehow, but the counselor also told him he was a narcissist) when threat of losing me reared its head, he started blindly agreeing with ME (Oh you're right I do have issues) but still couldn't resist ending nearly every line with "but so do you", etc.

 

I lit into him about his mother. I hate this feeling but with me feeling like she really did train him for narcissism, and continuing to have a negative effect on him and our relationship by being there to agree with him on everything, tell him he's Mr Wonderful and TOTALLY intrude on every situation, in general just undermining me left and right, trying to fill both Mom and wife roles to him AND our daughter, and I mean blatant and big time, not subtle crap that I could be misinterpreting, my feeling is that I HATE her. I don't ever remember feeling that strongly against anyone before and it isn't right...so she'll be over today, like she was yesterday, steamrolling...funny, for Mother's Day, I got nothing from her and had to do all of the cooking myself for THEIR family, etc. (my H told me he was going to but suddenly couldn't at last minute, leaving me to not only do it, but HUSTLING to do it) Friday, she informed me (told, not asked) that she had done all of this cooking for Father's Day so that I don't have to do a thing (this is held at OUR house, not hers). No regard at all for any plans I might have had to cook something special, etc and anyway, isn't Mother's Day the day when I was supposed to get a break?? No doubt she will have a big gift for him, too. To top it off, when she was here doing unsolicited "cleanup" after my daughter's pool party, she THREW AWAY the little bag that had the Father's Day card that I bought for my H. Oooops. Geez, sorry, but what are you getting so crabby about? It was just an honest mistake!! There you go being all unkind and unpleasant again, even though I just swooped in and took over the hostessing at your pool party and talked right over you and took over the parenting when you were trying to assuage your daughter's feelings about not being able to go to some event and now threw away the Father's Day card you bought for my darling precious perfect son. So ungrateful!!!!

 

Er, one good rant deserves another, maybe...sorry, I am just gearing up for another bad day...started off with my plan to give husband a father's day bj wakeup being thwarted by him waking up first, going into bathroom to masturbate, take shower and run off to play baseball and I have a feeling it's going downhill from here...

 

Actually,my plan is to just not be here when he gets back and show up an hour or so AFTER his family does. Sry, but right now my mood is "EF THEM".

 

Well, I really DID want to check in with you. I hope that you have a nice Father's Day and let me know how you are doing when you can.